Trireme Olympias - The Reconstruction of an Ancient Greek Warship For more info: www.trireme.org Trireme in New York City - 2012 39 Broadway, Suite 1810 New York, NY 10006 212-483-0340
The Olympias handles quite well. Given this crew was inexperienced, the ancient accounts of how deadly these vessels were with a skilled crew might not have been exaggerated!
10 knots minimun thats very fast for this era... I can't imagine the damage it dealt at ramming speed , although in the scene of ben Hur it looks incredible
Thats 10 knots with an inexperienced amateur crew. Professional Greek and Roman naval rowers were amongst the best paid sailors of their time and wouldve had a lifetime of training and conditioning beyond that of modern olympians, ramming speeds up to and beyond 13 or even 15 knots were entirely possible.
I was thinking of the massive polyremes of the diadochi, but the Athenians were also building fairly large ships (38-ish meters, based on dock sizes) which were no smaller than the standard Roman ship and slightly larger than this particular reconstruction.
@einherje71 Slaves weren't usually used on galleys. The romans preferred (free) sailors to operate on their ships. Slaves were only used when there was a lack of men or in emergency situations. greetings
All rowers ! Now hear this ! Message #1: Tonight you're having roast chicken for dinner. Message #2: Before dinner the skipper wants to try out his new set of waterski's...
So if this Olympias ship attained 10 knots, easily one can hypothetise about 20 knots max. ramming speed for ancient ones. And if it cruised with half-crew at 4-5 knots, easily one can hypothetise a 12 leasure speed for full crew ancient ones increased to 15 if a bit of speed was wanted.
@Hypnotized81 Actually neither the Greeks nor the Romans used slaves, except when manpower was short, and even then it was common practice to free the slaves on commencing service as an incentive to row well. Since triremes had to beach each night, its likely that desertion would have made slaves more expensive than freedmen due to replacement costs. And as a rower myself, I can attest that a dedicated free rower would be vastly preferable to an unskilled slave, even in polyremes.
Keep rolling men keep rolling drums: bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang roman officer: get ready for battle men
" From the first breath to the last, he stood for Sparta. Courageously he reigned beneath the stars. Victorious was the great Leonidas; a king who ruled an army and served the gods!!!! so proud i was born to be spartaaaaan. they rise over fire they faaaaaace! they cary the weight of Leonidaaas! The bravest they fight to the graaaave! "
@DissorderedArray It turns out you are correct. I knew about the greeks already but not about the romans. I did a little more research after you comment. thx
The first time naval technology started redeveloping was well into the transitional period into the Eastern Roman Empire. It is uknown now to most but while the earlier Roman Empire was a land-based one, its continuation, the Eastern Roman Empire was principally a maritime Empire. The first initiative occured in the 6th century when the first big fleets were constructed to counter the Vandal piracy threat in Western Mediterranean. It was then that the basic design of the Dromon ship was laid.
AoS ships were build on totally different specifications to cater for totally different needs. 1) AoS ships were meant to be navigated in open oceans for very large distances for which the speed-burst of oars did not matter 2) AoS were sailed mostly on picked-periods for favourable winds. Else, they struggled 3) AoS were for the most combined ships for military and cargo - thus were high and fat, hydrodynamically compromised to increase cargo and canons (best effective for port attacks)
Manpower yes but there are lots of misconceptions on that. The reality is that in that era ALL ships were sail ships. Commercial ships were sailed not oared. It was the military ships that were oared for 4 reasons : 1) Propulsion at all directions at all times under all weather 2) Maxumum speed (well more than 15 knots) 3) Controlled propulsion (hitting other ships was not done in full speed!) 4) Maxumum maneuverability (U-turn on the spot in less than 30'')
"Dear slave rowers, I have an announcment from our captain! It is good and bad news. Due to the beautiful weather today he ordered that everyone of you will receive an extra portion of rum. Hail to our captain, the greatest! But before that he wants to go water skiing. So buckle your rowing belts!" - from Monty Python
Second, the Olympias ship was constructed as an experimental ship to test hypotheses on ancient shipping. By all means it could never handle as good as the ancient ships that were built by knowledgeable engineers as modern engineers had to re-learn things on that type of construction. It was also manned by a totally inexperienced crew. Still it got 4 knots with half-crew and attained at times an amazing 10 knots with full crew. Which implies that ancient ones kept 15 knots at leasure pace...
Thus, having to face only small pirate fleets of small vessels Romans took to the liburnian design (a basic type of penteconter used initially by Dalmatian pirates), with fixed masts (thus the spreading of lanteen sails - which up to recently were thought as an innovation but in reality was a counter-measure to cater for the lack of moveability of the mast) Thus Romans inadvertedly created a situation in which naval technology regressed seriously.
The Romans employed a navy that relied on board-and-storm tactics. They essentially adapted terrestrial hand--to-hand combat tactics to a maritime situation. As far as sails on warships in the Mediterranean go, look up xebec and study the changing sail plans. By the late 18th century the xebec was a square-rigged warship with no oars. It was for the same reason the Venetians gave up the oared galley - canon. At best an oared xebec could mount only a handful of canon, and regardless of how "fast" an oared vessel is, they can't sneak up on you at sea, except at night or in the fog. Vessels left plenty of sea room between themselves and coast lines because not doing so led to the bottom. Not even a trireme is fast enough to avoid the guns of a warship with an crew that was at least awake. A frigate of the later 18th century had a broadside of 12 to 18 guns, quite capable of turning any oared attacker into kindling. If the warship could sail across the course of the attacking, oared ship. Nor could the oared vessels carry enough guns to counter the threat. More canon meant less oars. Worse, regardless of speed they would remain in range of a warship's guns for minutes at best and much longer if the warship could pursue. The French frigate of the mid 18th century could make 18 knots in a favourable wind. In rough conditions it could run down and destroy an oarded vessel. The only favorable weather conditions for an oared warship would be windless conditions.
To understand how fast the ancient ones could go, just do this experiment : put an average guy (healthy, sportif) to ram a boat, then put an athlet who oars at international level (not an Olympic winner necessarily). What will be the difference? Well... nearly double time both in short and in the long run!
Actually it's more like the crew are now 2 inches taller than their ancient counterparts and so they're working in more cramped conditions and with less practice than ancient crews would have had.
... it is thus not accidental that W.European AoS ships suffered seriously in the Mediterranean never really being able to do anything against the Ottoman-backed Barbary pirates who dominated the sea with their fustas (small OARED ships) catching the vessels (commercial as well as military) as sitting ducks.
There was a lot of political maneuvering in the Barbary era; it was cheaper to keep the Barbary pirated paid than to pound them. Then comes a few frigates from a new nation, and makes them leave American ships alone.
Hmm, not sure. Aside from Sparta, the Thebians and Athens I don't think the Greek fleets were manned by slaves, I think the Corinthians used freemen which made them even faster to about nineteen knots, maybe twenty if they pushed real hard.
During the Republican years, the Romans pretty much ''sub-contracted'' the allied Greek navies (who were in fierce competition with Carthagenians). By the time they became an Empire they had made the Mediterranean ''Mare Nostrum'' so there was no need to build expensive military ships. They were occasionally building large commercial ships though arguably trade was moving faster and cheaper with smaller-sized ships. Imagine that Imperial Romans rarely moved armies on ships but took to roads.
First, Greek ships were not manned by slaves. Oarsmen in ancient Greece were generally poor people that could not afford buying weapons to fight on land, but these were specialized in their task and thus highly revered for their skills and motivation. To the point, that sons and nephews of the ship owners (the richest guys of the state) were sitting down and oaring alongside them - often indicated negatively by those conservative aristocrats back then.
Now if you compare the Triremes' characteristics with the Spanish/Dutch/British ships of the Age of Sail there is no comparison the latter lag behind in ALL measurements. Speaking of canons, other oared ships like the Dromons had fire-canons a more potent weapon for naval warfare. In a fantasy battle of either Triremes/Dromons against AoS the latter would suffer seriously.
You need to be a lot more specific on your comment. Which time period exactly are you talking about? 1400-1500? 1600-1700 , 1700-1800? Cause the truth is , oared ships were very good but only in a specific scenario and only in inland seas. Oared ships struggled in open seas , and were prone to shipwreck if the waves got too big (which happened quite often in high seas in stormy days , but were a lot less prone to happen in the mediterrenean). In the late 1700s 1800s , good luck bringing a trirreme or any other more advanced oared ship to a fight against frigates and even late period galleons. Your ship would simply be too small in height to even attempt a boarding action , that if you got close anuff before you got blown away by the superior fire from AoS ships. Cause they can have canons instead of oars. Now if you are talking about 1400-1500 , and you are focusing on portuguese and spanish galleons and caravels , then yes , in an inland sea , the galleys and oared ships would have a massive advantage , but as i said , only in a specific scenario and also depends on what british/spanish/dutch ships you are talking about. Its also common sense. If oared ships were superior in every way , why didnt the british just built a ton of them when they wanted to dominate the naval game? Cause they werent good anuff in every scenario. In fact , i think galleys and oared ships saw their prime time during roman and greek times , and saw use by the ottomans indeed , but again , only in the mediterrenean.
You need to take into account everything : 1. The ancient oarsmen experience vs. the tragic inexperience of modern oarsmen (note that modern boat athlets were included in the team and proved the most ineffective!!!) 2. The ancient men's hard life and their endurance cannot be replicated by modern men) 3. NO WOMEN oared in ancient ships (Olympias had also women oaring!) 4. Ship design - there is no case of this experimental ship sailing better than ancient ones!
Yeah and the Roman trierimes could reach speeds of up to fifteen knots at ramming speed, this one can bearly scrape ten. However this was because the Romans worked their slaves past the point of exaustion they literaly worked them to death.
видео - типичный развод лохов - хорошо видно, что даже при небольшом волнении в нижний ряд отверстий для весел заскакивает вода. Далее, греки корабли делали для перевозки грузов, торговля шла параллельно с войной - где там место для этих грузов и т.д.? video typical divorce of suckers is clearly visible, even when a little excitement in the bottom row of holes for the oars drops into the water. Further, the Greeks made ships for the transport of goods, trade was in parallel with the war - where there is a place for these goods, etc.?
