A pair of Triumph TR4’s offers a look at the strengths and weaknesses of Triumph’s first sports car with roll-up windows. Video includes owner satisfaction survey data from 1969. Why was dealer service rated so poorly? Watch and learn!
In 1991 I was in high school. I bought a '66 Triumph TR4A that someone had swapped a 289 into. It had a 4 speed and I believe an 8 inch diff swap. If you look up death trap in the dictionary, it would be this thing. The frame was rusty, and when you turned left the body would twist and the passenger door would pop open sometimes. But that's ok, the passenger seat wasn't bolted in. I don't remember it having seatbelts either. It had a home made fiberglass transmission tunnel, and the shifter sat at a crazy angle like an AC Cobra. The guy had cut the braces out of the hood to clear the motor, and on the highway the hood would basically start to inflate and lift up in the middle. We were into street racing a lot back then, and I remember my boss at the shop I worked at part time seeing it the first time. He's like "Ya, you'll probably win, once, upside down sliding backwards. Sell that thing." Somehow I did not die. I actually made money off that thing, I sold it to a grown up and never saw it again. That thing wasn't a car, it was a loaded weapon being handed to a child, I had no business driving it, and the guy I got it from had no business selling it to me haha
I learned something new today I always thought that the banjo steering wheel was just a styling trend I now know that it isolated the drivers hands from vibration
I bought a red 1964 TR4, in pristine condition, from a guy who lived nearby, not long after I got my licence in 1970. I thought I'd won the lottery when I brought that car home. It cost $1,800 Aussie dollars; peanuts now, but a big loan for me then, but was such a blast to own and drive. It had the overdrive, which could be engaged in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. Man, I still miss that car. Good times!
I worked for a boss drove a TR-6 Triumph, drove it once and it was pretty sprite for such a small car. Handling wasn’t great, but for everyday cornering, it was pretty good. And sitting so close to the ground was like driving a go cart, exhilarating. 👍🇨🇦
The nose heavy and relatively tall TR-4 and the even more so 6 cylinder Austin Healey and TR-6 were all made for the US consumer. The MGB, Austin Healey 100-4 and the TR-3 were way better balanced, and bought by a different demographic. The Spitfire was truly a gem however, way better than the Morris Minor based Sprite. I will not entertain arguments on these points. Yeah yeah Group 44 blah blah. “Any Car’s A Race Car”. I’m talking grace and balance which some people cannot feel.
Anyone who has had a TR 3 knows what “lick the flap” means. Dad’s original side curtains lasted about 10 years on his ‘61. I remember ordering new side curtains and new convertible top from J.C. Whitney and they fit perfectly and lasted another 15 years. Thanks for so much irreplaceable memories!
I have a ‘66 TR-4A (non irs) that I got for free last year that’s complete, But disassembled. It’s been off the road since 1981 and is still pretty solid surprisingly as I live in Maine and that’s where the car spent the majority of its life. It’s awaiting a full restoration as soon as I wrap up some other projects.
I had a 1968 Triumph TR250 convertible with that body style. The TR250 was basically a TR4 or TR4A with a 6 banger. The next year for the 1969 model, the body style changed along with the name to TR6. That TR250 had a foot pedal that operated the wipers and the power to weight ratio made that car a little screamer. I used to drive it hard, doing donuts, tossing it around like a toy when I slid the rear wheel into a curb once and it just didn’t act right after that. That was around the time I enlisted in the military and called to have it junked. The tow truck driver decided to buy it for himself and offered me more than the junkyard was going to pay for it so I accepted. He hooked it up and said the frame broke, but he still wanted it. I guess the Michigan winters and road salt wasn’t very kind to the underside, which was deceptive considering everything else was flawless. Ah, to be 17 again. Great memories. Later I bought a Triumph Spitfire and the power was disappointing, even after milling the heads. I’ve also had a MG midget, which was under-powered as well. I had a Triumph TR7 about a year before the TR8 came out but by then I moved on to the dependability of a Toyota Corona.
A close friend had a 7 year old TR4. He got hit almost head on and the steering column pierced his liver and the floor fell out from under him. Thankfully he survived and is still here today. Not a particularly safe car in an accident.
The Triumph Herald wasn't much better: the bonnet and front wings opened away from the scuttle panel as one piece for engine access - in a heavy impact the flimsy subframe and thin A-pillars would fold and the bonnet flipped up to form a guillotine blade to nip off your head.
I worked on the TR3 and TR4/4A when I was in high school in the NE in the late 1970's. Fun cars to drive (once you set up the twin carbs correctly), but they were incredibly rust prone back even back then. It broke my heart when I had to part out a cosmetically beautiful 4A because the frame was essentially gone.
Steve this car brings back good memories my brother had one and 64 and he used to let me use it you know what I did with it drag race it was fast and girls God bless my brother may he rest in peace
They were not under powered in the world then. They were the fastest lower priced Brit sports car. Pretty fast in any terms for 1962. 0-60 in 10 sec or so. That would see off all but the hottest V8's.
Steve, thanks for the trip down memory lane. Owned a '65 TR4, absolutely a blast to drive. Peel the top off the frame and store it in the trunk was simple & easy. The only car I've ever owned that I bought and drove for two years and sold for what I paid for it ($750).
I had a 1976 TR-6 and it was a blast and I have driven a TR-8 and it was fun too. Those poor old TR-4s are just slowly rotting away, I'll bet the frames are certainly toast!!! The hood on the TR-4 was pretty cool with the offset bulge that's fir sure. From what I recall, there was not a TR-5 for the US market but the car was called the TR-250.
One of the reasons why dealer service was rater so poor was like in the midwest city where I grew up with a population of 250,000 we only had one dealer that handled european foreign cars other than Volkswagen and it handled MG, Triumph, Rover, Fiat and just about everything else that wasn't German or Japanese. Ordering parts usually meant waiting for something to be shipped from the UK because they weren't any regional parts depots.
I had a '77 Spitfire 1500. I replaced the good-for-nothing SUs with Webers. It had a little head work, and, a full custom exhaust, I estimate it probably made close to 100HP. Which, in that tiny car was more than enough!
I always loved these cars and maybe someone will rescue one of these. The engines don't sound like much but are great, especially if you polish the head and balance everything which I have done on mine(although it's in a Morgan...). Thanks for an excellent video!
Wow!!! My first car. Got one when I was 14 and my dad handed me a shop manual and said take it apart and fix what’s broken. Took me a year and a half but I got it done. I loved it and had two of them.
I have MGs but I do appreciate the information put out on Triumphs. Another Good video as always Steve. You do your homework It Shows. Thanks for putting these vids out for us.
Great info, Steve! Everyone I knew who had a TR anything though they were amazing fun, but no one could keep up with the repairs. You almost have to keep them as occasional toys, and you definitely don’t want to get in an accident in one.
Rust loved Triumphs. Raced a modified stripped down 66 TR4A in the SCCA 1973-75.... the big deal was to put the 88mm wet sleeve upgrade performance boost. Great fun...easiest car I worked on in mt life
Thought the deer head would be in the boot ! Always called these cars MATCHBOX when we were kids . But another great presentation as always ! Thanks Steve .
I've had a few MGs and a Healey but my roommate when I had a Midget, had a TR6. They are my favorite of the Triumphs. He actually did spin out in it, with two chicks on board and like you said, it didn't flip, the curb just took out his wheel.
I have a 62 in my garage! There's 2 sizes of the hood bubble depending if early or late production, ones more desirable I believe is the early longer one I think seen here. But no mention of the later TR4A with its IRS ??? Over drive was electric with the lever in the other pod on the steering column. The biggest issue is the Lucas wiring,,, + a positive ground so that helped the rust and I have plenty of rust! I'd pay good money for those parts cars if not 2,000 miles away?! Cheers.
All that Bondo reminds me of cars back in Minnesota. I remember pulling some chunks an inch thick out of old Camaro's, etc. with cardboard or newspaper backing it up.
I bought a 73 Camaro LT as a winter beater back in the early 80s. It had inches of bondo and newspaper tin for floorboards. Such was life in the snow/rust belt. back then. I drove it for months until the rear shackles came up through the trunk floor.
A friend bought a really rusty 56 Chevy around 1980 or 81 that had been sitting in a garage for a long time... It was a major bondo bucket from the beltline down... During the restoration we determined the bodywork was probably done in the late 60's.... How did we know.?.. Because we found about a thousand "Sunoco Bucks" stuffed in ton of chicken wire that had been smoothed over with bondo like paper machete! Some of those bucks were in decent shape and legible.. They read.. Win a brand new 1968 Chevy Camaro!" Safe to say "Somebody" either worked at a Sunoco station or bought a Sh!t load of gas between the Fall of 1967 to Summer of 68!
Changed many of the split rims when I worked at a farm coop in the 60's and 70's, some of those old farm trucks had very rusty wheels and were almost impossible to get apart, did it without a cage for many years so we used a clip on air hose and stood off to the side, the cage was a welcome addition, had one come apart in the cage once bent up the cage pretty good.
Have very fond memories of these low buck sports cars- the more popular badges being of British descent- the "other" British Invasion that swept America. Thanks to an elder brother of 12yrs, the TR3 was the very first car that I drove at the age of 9 or so. I distinctly recall grasping that banjo wheel, mostly for support , and feeling out those tiny spoon pedals, my instructor, from the passenger seat observing my abilities. From initial starts..."kadunk-adunk dunk" that engine would jolt as "Gas,,Gas GAS..murr gas" would come from the instructor's seat. That first time...the one where you're in full control....any obsessed car geek remembers. The side curtains that as a kid evoked days of buggies and buckboards, which all these sports cars sort of handled like. But they were fun, just being able to reach over and touch the pavement was enticing. That unique balloon expulsion sound of their exhaust was unmistakable ,as was negotiating steep driveway abutments. Flats on wire wheels that many service stations refused to repair, avoiding, risk from powerful jaws of tire machines. Those dual cabs that required a skillful touch to properly adjust. The price paid for distinction of motoring pleasure. How well I recall the pitfalls of ownership. Freezing in blistery midwest winters. Cramped confinements. Yet the power to weight principles made up for a daily Tom McCullen/Brock Yates experience. Just to ride in them. Priceless.
Driving those early Triumphs and in fact any British sports car was more about the experience than anything else, even the venerable Mini had so many niggly little annoyances that daily driving one was an enthusiast thing more than anything but I also feel that is why they survive in numbers today. The Simplicity too made them great project cars and the first car I did as a Dad with my kids was a 1975 British Mini.
Had a few mga's( one was a twin cam) when I got out of high school and one triumph TR6 and then mostly American ever since except for recently old Honda's and Acuras (RSX S-Type and Integra type r) meaning 2000 2002.
Triumph came out with a special edition TR7. It was white with some wreath decals on it. The car was extremely cheesy, but very rare. A guy who lived near me had one parked up on the side of his house. At first he wanted to restore it, but I think he gave up on it because, well, it really wasn't the type of car on which you would want to put a lot of time and money. One day it just disappeared. Its a shame. A nice one now can fet a good price. Never found out where it went.
And to quash a popular story that still gets told, according to my research... Triumph's didn't have tractor motors. The motors were designed for automobile use in 45 and modified for tractor use.
"The Standard wet liner inline-four engine was a 2,088 cc inline four cylinder petrol engine produced by the Standard Motor Company. Originally developed concurrently for passenger car use and for the Ferguson TE20 tractor, it was widely used for Standard passenger cars of the 1950s, most notably the Vanguard. Later it was successfully used in Standard's popular early generation Triumph TR series sports cars." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_wet_liner_inline-four_engine
Can’t remember which one a friend had, though it had roll up windows, fun to drive. He did a off frame restoration years ago, lots of corrosion!!!!!! Had to replace lots of parts, hard to find even then !! Late seventies
Stevie Magggggsss!!!! Love the TR4. They have a very Ferrari like appearance and I believe that’s due to the lead designer being from Ferrari. I could be wrong on that, but @CuriousCars did a vidjya on one and talked about the design elements in great detail.
Fifty years ago a military buddy of mine flipped his TR-4 and it flattened the windshield frame and ground down the carburetor blister on the hood. He got some bad injuries to his face and he lost his right index finger. The TR-4 was repaired and he drove it for many years afterword. Tough little car.
Steve a Friend of mine in bethel ct , 5 years ago put a complete corvette suspension,LS fast car, Scary Fast, I think he said on dyno, It was making 630 hp 530 ft at the wheels, And he is a nut case driving i, Can be crazy, But he,s missing some bolts.
Back in high school auto shop a kid had one of these and the only way to get the body in one piece was to grind the extensive rust off and fiberglass mat all the seams. I think he may have brazed on some sheet metal patches first.The rust was really bad with fenders and quarter panels flapping and floors gone .A coat of bondo and a British racing green outdoor paint job and it looked ok until he sold it not too long after. He had it running pretty well. If I recall he had another for parts and made one from the two. This was '78 or 9. They were worth nothing at the time. This was in the Northeast too.
If I heard correctly, the tr4 is just as fast as a tr6 with equal drivers shifting at the sweet spot but the 6 requires less downshifting in hilly terrain. Also that tr4 engine is really excellent with its wet sleeve cylinder liners.
My cousin acquired a complete rare TR250 (UK TR5) in the seventies. Had great visions of restoration. Started with getting the engine rebuilt and running. The body and chassis is the same as a TR4a with the independent rear suspension, the engine was like the later TR6. His drunken father in a rage through a cinder block through the windshield damaging the frame. He lost interest and parked it under a tarp. twenty years later he decided to sell and the damp earth had devoured the frame and lower body to the point it tore in half when they tried to move it. What a loss
I had a TR6 I’d picked up as a non runner. The frame was so rusted that the rear swing arm was about to tear from the car. Traded the car for bodywork on my MGB 😂
My sister had a 1968 TR-250 her husband bought right off of a dealer show room floor brand new. I have had Triumph collectors tell me the TR-250 and the TR-5 are different. I know the Tr-250 was a one year model. I also know they are very difficult to find another TR-250 in America.
I owned both a TR-3(a 61) and a 66 TR-4A back in the early 1970’s. Both were worn out when I got them. And rusted. Were they rusted. I still cannot believe how much folks pay for them today.
Disc brakes were standard since about 1956,, wire wire and disc wheel hubs identical, just shorter studs for wire wheels so they wouldnt foul the ww centers. You also missed the eyeball vents on the dash for heat and ventilation. TR250 was 1968 model year, TR5 was non US spec with FI and 150hp, but didnt meet US emission rules
Michelotti styled most of the Triumphs of this period, including the smaller Herald/Vitesse/Spitfire lines and the 1300/2000 saloons as well as the Stag. He also tweaked the appearance of the final Phase III Standard Vanguard although it was fellow stylist Vignale whose name was applied to these run-out models.
Must have been really rich to afford the import taxes on a vehicle that did not meet the federal emissions or safety requirements. Perhaps it was a TR250? The naturally aspirated US version of the TR5.
I’m loving your videos Steve but just one note I have to add: You mentioned British Leyland as the TR4’s parent organisation, but this is not (quite) true… Standard-Triumph was bought by the Leyland Motor co in 1960 but BRITISH Leyland did not come into being until 1968, with the merger of Leyland and British Motor Holdings. By this point, the TR5/TR250 had replaced the TR4.
I can see where it's breaking up the ground right now. The banjo style steering wheel is neat The rougher one shows what kind of rollover protection you had. None.
