Trolleybuses on the West Coast 

Trolleybuses are a really smart solution for basically any higher density bus route, and providing them with battery power to extend their range beyond the wire network for part of their route would make them basically the perfect bus for any transit application. I'm so bummed they're gone from Boston and headed that way in Philly; we should be using them more, not less.

Just 200 miles north of Seattle is Vancouver B.C.'s extensive trolley bus network. I have a friend who spent many years driving for B.C.Transit (now retired and looking after vintage buses in Burnaby) who arranged for me to visit their Marpole depot during my stopover enroute back home to Australia from Britain. Angus features on one of DownieLive's RU-vid videos when Mike visited the Burnaby Transit Museum.🙂🙂🙂

Yup, the last of the Boston trolleybuses on the Silver Line were replaced this month. A total of 43 trolleybus lines had historically existed, but not all concurrently, making the all-time total 44 (counting the Silver Line thing as one route). At its peak in 1952, the Boston system was the third-largest trolleybus system in the US, with only the Chicago and Atlanta systems having more trolleybuses than Boston's, which Boston had 463 trolleybuses at the time! Not in the US of course, but another trolleybus city on the west coast of North America is Vancouver! It first opened in 1948 and originally operated by the British Columbia Electric Railway. By 1954, Vancouver had the largest trolley bus fleet in Canada, with 327 units, and the fleet grew to an all-time peak of 352 in early 1957! Today, the system has a total length of nearly 200 miles and comprises 13 routes and is managed by the Coast Mountain Bus Company, a subsidiary of TransLink. It uses a fleet of 262 trolley buses. Of these, around 70 are articulated.

When the 1.3-mile long Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel first opened, the tunnel had trolleybuses! And had a unique operation of being shared by buses and light rail from 2009 until 2019 when it became a light rail-only tunnel. You might be thinking, "How did Seattle end up with a big tunnel for buses?" Well, Seattle was supposed to get a subway system. The federal government offered hundreds of millions to cover 80 percent of the costs. The project was named Forward Thrust. However, King County voters opposed it twice in 1968 and 1970. And so, the money that would've been for Seattle, went to Atlanta instead for their MARTA system! The concept of a downtown bus tunnel was first proposed in 1974 during discussions between Governor Dan Evans and Seattle Mayor Wes Uhlman about regional transportation projects in response to the proposed extension of Interstate 90 into Seattle via a third floating bridge crossing Lake Washington. Plans were unveiled in 1984, and tunnel opened in 1990. From the outset, the bus tunnel was intended to be converted for light rail trains at some point in the future.

They're also more pleasant to ride in. Instead of a loud, rumbling diesel engine, a trolleybus accelerating gives off an almost harmonic rise of doooooo-dee-dee-dee-deeeeeee as the electric motor spools up. Much nicer to listen to!

Great Video. I have been to both Seattle and SF (but I reside in San Francisco and have lived there all of my life). The trolley bus networks that both King County Metro and SF MUNI operate do not disappoint. Fun fact: MUNI and King County Metro bought the 60 foot New Flyer Xcelsior Trolleybuses via a joint procurement in 2014.

There was a big alternative study that just came out suggesting SF should massively expand their network to extend the range and service life of battery range extended trolleybuses.

3:07 I feel that the disadvantages of trolleybuses nowadays are outweighed by the disadvantages of battery-electric buses. Since battery-electric buses would need up to 3 hours of charging, transportation agencies would need to buy a higher quantity of these buses in order to run the same frequencies as agencies operating trolleybuses. The other thing to note is that many modern trolleybuses do have a small battery pack in order to operate short distances off-wire.

Go to Dayton, Ohio. It’s probably the most quirky trolley bus system, anywhere. And the people who live there, are awesome.

Vancouver has the only system left in Canada. Those steep hills!

Trolleybuses are awesome. It’s really a shame that a lot of systems are being shutdown. I think they really are better than battery buses. I’ve been on the ones in Budapest, San Francisco and Vancouver and all of them are great! I think we should be bruising a lot of these historical networks using a combination of battery bus and trolleybus technology. It’s can be a great way to reduce emissions in the downtown core, and trolleybuses can also be used to run on tram right of ways too!

vancouver canada has had tolleybuses for over 74 years we love them we fought to keep them years ago when translink wanted to get rid of them lets just say it did not end well for translink at that time

I drove trolleys for nearly 15 years before the system was dismantled in Hamilton (ON, Canada) in 1994. There was a good deal of intrigue involved in the demise of the system. A consultant's study clearly demonstrated their superiority but there were politcal forces at work pushing CNG buses as a replacement. I wrote an article (Dewired) for an American publication that never saw the light of day...the magazine decided they only wanted to publish "good" news stories. Someday I hope to finish a book I started pre-cancer...I think it will open a few eyes. Unfortunately, transit decisions are often made by people with little expertise in the field.

Seeing those trolleybuses operate alongside the PCCS was pretty cool. Thanks for the video!

Also Muni's trolleybuses can run about 2 miles off the wires and on the 30 Stockton the end of the line (Sports Basement Parking Lot) does not actually have wires. MBTA should have gotten trolleybuses with larger battery packs to fully electrify the Silver Line.

I really like the trolleybus systems in the Baltic states. Especially the old Škoda 14 and 15tr trolleybuses which also used to be in San Francisco in the past.

I know that san Francisco's trolley busses have battery's so they can operate away from the wires. Making reroutes easier. I visit a lot and frequently see them running off the wires on battery.

I used to operate one trolleybus line in SF from 2016-2019 and from what I heard is that SFMTA also retains old trolley buses for special events. I drove the 33 bus and sometimes I drove the cable car. I heard about the Japanese trolley buses, they were pretty cool but never ridden it. I was born in Seattle and I liked the trolleybuses better than the regular ones because they don't go through neighborhoods that put me at a risk of death. Don't believe me? I went back to Seattle in 2022 and drove down one of the most dangerous streets ever. Not the place for a single guy to be. I am very glad the Seattle trolleybuses don't go down that road. You also forgot Vancouver, Canada trolleybuses, they are the coolest thing I ever saw and strangely enough are super safe.

vancouver Canada also has trolley buses. I think one problem is with trolleys getting “unhooked” from the wires requiring driver to go outside to place the trolley back onto the overhead wires. Toronto Canada had/has trolley trams and replacing with pantograph line by line to increase reliability. (and trams only have 1 wire abive). Note that the trolley on buses is very long and its sway makes it easy to pass a car in the way or get close to sidewalk at stops.

Here in NYC, we used to the trolleybus until the 1960's. In Mexico City is progress of expanding the trolleybus system. One the trolleybus route being elevated between Santa Marta Line A Station to Constitution of 1917 Line 8 Station.

Trolleybuses are awesome, I think. I lived in Seattle and rode them regularly, and while this isn't a big deal to most, I loved the fact that when another bus came to my stop while I waited for mine, the air didn't stink of diesel exhaust when the other bus departed, and that departure was fast, not slow and lumbering like a diesel bus..

In seattle, trolley busses have backup batteries that allow for reroute and pass if needed.

Vancouver BC also operates a trolleybus network of 262 trolleybuses and 13 routes, and the city is very hilly!

Trolley buses were also popular in the UK with most being double deckers. At one time most medium size towns had a sstem and London had an extensive system. , and I think a lot of people found them a great mode of travel. However diesel became King and most places converted to that. I am not aware of anywhere in the UK having a system so the only places to travel on them is a Heritage museum and there are not many of those that have them. Good for Seattle and San Francisco.

I remember taking the trolley busses all over when I lived in Seattle, I really wish I could go back.

Route 24 in San Francisco had a documentary film made out of it about 15 years ago. It is known as the Diversity Bus since it goes from the housing projects, through the Castro, loops over the Fillmore and ends in Pacific Heights. Around the time of that film coming out I happened to work along this bus line. One day a trash truck came along Divisadero with it's back end up and destroyed the overhead wires for the trolly busses. Traffic was snarled up for a few hours while workmen repaired the wires to get this bus line back up and running. Another time around 25 years ago there was a major power outage on the West Coast. These trolly busses were frozen with no power. I say many blocking the intersections along Market Street. This was before vehicles were banned on Market. So another disadvantage is loss of power

San Francisco's fleet has had battery back-up for the last two fleets. The current fleet can run off-wire for a long time, allowing for all the flexibility of diesel buses. Two lines, the 22 and 30, were recently extended to destinations with no overhead. The 30 used to end at Broderick and Beach, near the Palace of Fine Arts. It now runs off wire along Marina Boulevard into the Presidio, to terminate near the Tunnel Tops park. Even your video shows trolleys in SF running with the poles down. As someone who rides trolleys everyday, the freedom of cropping the poles to go around big obstructions or make detours for construction or street fairs is a wonderful change. Finally, SF kept its electric buses because the city generates its own electricity as part of the municipal water system, so 100% clean and very low-cost energy.

Philly still has 3 routes. we used to have 5 but two were cutback. Vancouver is a trolleybus paradise. they have like 110 routes.

Im sad that Boston got rid of the trackless trolleys :( the Silver Line DMAs could have lasted another 5 years or so. Anyways, Great video!

One thing to note about Seattle trolley buses is that Metro completely motorizes the system on weekends (expect for major holiday weekends). Trolley buses really only run consistently Monday through Friday. All the trolleys have battery power though. Metro for some reason refuses to use it for weekend detours.

Vancouver Canada has a nice Translink Trolley Buses

Seattle's KCM battery bus announcement for 50th anniversary got a lot of flak. If some of them could work with trolley wire, especially on hills, that'd be cool

I don't mean to be picky but as a native Seattlelite, I love the green and yellow paint scheme better than what I see now.

I think that the only 2 places I've been on trolley buses on our planet are ; Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA (maybe Boston too as they are technically different places but I can't remember if it was a diesel bus or trolley) and the other place was Chisinau AKA Kishinev, Moldova.

Trollybusses are great for hills. Muni replaced the 1 line with diesel for a week that made riders furious because the diesels smelled horrible getting up the hill, when they didn’t have to have people get off for several blocks.

Very interesting and I thought that they where on the increase not decline, We have none in Australia now but all cities operated them in the early 1900's but trams/light rail are on the way back

I love those vintage streetcars! Excellent episode! Love public transit!

I went with someone to San Francisco in 2021 and got a chance to ride Those trolly buses, but I much prefer the ones in Seattle.

Thanks for sharing. It was so weird seeing those silver line buses shoot in South Station within fare control in a tunnel as I'd go from the Red line up to catch Amtrak or the Commurter Rail! Hope to ride one someday if I get to one of the cities that runs them.

I used to drive Seattle trolleybusses back in the 1980s. Back then, they told me one pole was positive electrical current and the other pole was negative. But, they said, unlike most other systems, it didn't matter which pole connected to which overhead wire. So, if a lane was blocked, poles could be placed on the wires in the other lane, so the bus could be guided around the obstruction. These days, I'm a passenger, and the current fleet has batteries that allow a trolleybus to be driven about 3 miles with the poles lowered.

As an Oakland native it is an honor to have my region covered by you! Thank you so much for covering this region and based on what I have seen, you are definitely on the right track!

Thank you! I live in a city with plenty of trollebuses (since 1936). My country's capital city got tried of their trollebuses in favor of battery powered electric buses (but in my books the jury is still out on those due to our colder climate and issues with battery recycling). You are welcome to visit one day, in a few years time, although that's going to be a long trip. :-)))

The correct solution is actually using XT40s with the battery of XE40 on the I-90 Silver Line section XT60 with XE60 battery pack. For Seattle and San Francisco this type might be useful on routes that need both types of electric power that way they can go back to the depot and charge like a BEV or use OHLE to charge a battery. You can see this inside in Germany where Deutsche Bahn AkkuTriebwagen Baureihe 563 Siemens Mireo DB Baureihe 515 Stadler Flirt charge on the existing 15kv 16.7hz AC once off the OHLE run like a battery train end of trip charge like a BEV or charge via 15kv 16.7hz AC. For the Philly system, you are looking at 59 66 and 75 Wayne Junction.

For now, it is worth adding that Prague has reopened trolleybus traffic and continues to develop it.

I live along one of the trolley bus routes... or rather I did because they axed my route during the pandemic. There's lots of consideration going on whether or not to bring it back. But I chose this place based on the proximity to the route, so I hope it comes back (I'm partially disabled so it would be nice to have my route back). One of the advantages is also the lack of noise made by the vehicles. The most I would hear when the line was running was a slight "chirp chirp" from the overhead lines when it was about a block away and the "whirrrr" as it passed my place. You probably saw the lines/stops along your walk, as I saw my block in some of your Seattle videos.

...my old hometown of Milwaukee WI had a fairly extensive network that was retired in the mid 1960s. I still remember riding on the old Orange and Cream Marmons and Pullmans. I've ridden the trolley buses in both San Francisco and Seattle. One of the major reasons the two cities have expanded their networks are the hills the buses have to deal with. I remember Metro using GM New Looks on what is referred to as the Counterbalance (which originally has a unique type of hybrids Hybrid streetcar/cable car which took a lot of punishment grinding up that steep grade. When the lines operating on the hill went under the wires, it made a big difference. Portland (where I currently live) also had a large trolleybus network operated by (Rose City Transit) which ceased operations in 1958 and moved in to all petrol./diesel powered buses. Currently TriMet (which replaced Rose City in 1969) is placing their hopes on battery electric buses though here is some sentiment for returning to trolley buses. The agency already operates and extensive LRT network (5 lines with a 6th in the planning stage) as well as two city operated local streetcar lines. so there's a modest web of catenary in the city centre. The one advantage of trolley buses over battery electric, is they can be on the route all day with no need to return to the base to recharge or require intermittent fast charge stations.(the latter which take a toll on total battery life). Another is that they are technologically much simpler than battery electric or hybrid buses. One concept advanced in another video here on RU-vid was the idea of a dual mode trolley and battery electric vehicle that could recharge its batteries while on line as well as through regenerative braking. This way a bus can go "offline" but wouldn't need to rely on a petrol or diesel engine to do so.

We also have the same problem in Bulgaria as well. Multiple cities that used to have trolleybuses, were completely removed do to either poor management of the trolleys themselves or they weren’t supporting them that much. I live in Plovdiv ( the 2nd biggest city in Bulgaria ) and it used to have the longest trolleybus system in the country, but after 2012 they removed the entire transport completely, cause it had one of the worst wires in Bulgaria and it had numerous problems. And now recently, yes RECENTLY, they will purchase new electric buses via EU materials. Burgas city is also having the same fate with their trolleybus system as well. They recently stopped the trolleybuses to operate and replaced them with electric buses. The only cities that are still supporting the system are Sofia ( the capital ), Stara Zagora, Pleven, Vraca, Sliven and maybe Varna, with Pleven having the biggest trolleybus system in the country with over 22 lines of trolleybuses ( it’s the 7th biggest city in Bulgaria btw ). They have more trolleybuses than regular buses.

Have you managed to capture Vancouver, Canada’s trolley bus system? It is larger than Seattle’s network and marginally shorter than Sam Fransisco’s network in terms of route miles, but much more efficient despite having older trolleys, and has by far the most ridership out of all US and Canada trolley bus systems. It alone has more ridership than San Francisco and Seattle trolleys combined!

As a person who lives in SF there are a couple non trollybusses in SF

Hey Thom you should check out our Trolley buses in Philly the routes are 59 66 & 75. The 59 & 75 both run out of Arrot Transportation Center and the 66 runs out a Frankford but you can board them in different places around the Greater Philadelphia Area.

Love trolleybuses!

Interesting video. I think more places should look into trolley buses.

Love this video and the sweet trolley buses!!!

Thom did you know that the San Francisco Trolley buses can also run on Battery power.

Brilliant video! Does this mean you may have to go to Dayton?

I was behind on watching this one, but finally caught up. I live near the Dayton area. So if you decide that you want to follow up and do Dayton and trolley buses, let me know. I suppose if not I could just do some partner content.

I didn't see it in your list of advantages but they are quieter than ICE busses by a long way. I was in the Harvard station many years ago and at that time they were using both trolley and diesel buses in the tunnel and the noise was horrendous especially in comparison. Sad to hear that the T has gone away from trolley buses.

Great video!

I enjoyed that video👍👍

You should check out Vancouver BC. We have a very large trolley bus network, in fact we are the only city to have Newflyer E60LFR articulated trolleys. They are getting replaced with new trolley buses close to the end of the decade so you should visit here in the coming years to experience them!

I always thought Trolley buses were cool ever since i was little

I wish Chicago still had trolleybuses, they were out of service before I was born. I also wish Chicago had streetcars too. They would be perfect for those who don't like fossil fuels, but then electric buses are what you're most likely to see now.

A shame that they went to diesel instead of at least CNG.

I don't know where the name "trolleybus" came from, but growing up in Philadelphia in the 60's and 70's we always called them "trackless trolleys". In fact, I still see that name on the official SEPTA website. To me, "trackless trolley" seems much more descriptive of the actual vehicle than "trolleybus".

how about doing Medelin, Colombia

Guadalajara, Mexico had a trolley bus line when I visited in 2019.

And don't forget Vancouver. It certainly does seem to be a West Coast thing! When Seattle was trying to upgrade their trolleybuses, they borrowed one from Vancouver for a test run ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RYZRLs2Wm-8.html

For the benefit of those of us on the other side of the Pond, when you talk about buses being run on "gas", do you mean hydrogen (which IS a gas), or petrol ("gasoline" in American English) (which, of course, is actually a liquid, not a gas)?

Why would battery electric busses replace Trolly busses? you still want the overhead lines to charge the batteries while driving.

4:37 Do they have battery’s for small range off wire?

Don't forget Vancouver B.C.

trolleybus is more cost-effective than bus or electric bus

As far as I know it's possible, to combine Battery and Wire in the bus like in tramcars. Right? - I personally regret, that Boston pulled the plug. - Am I right: Were Seattle use German trolleys of MAN?

I love how you started your amazing intro with Boston. Even though it's sad news there are no more trolley buses in the Boston area, it seems like they are a bit hard to operate and maintain, so maybe its for the better. As a Bostonian, I am sad I never got to ride the trolleybuses that start at Harvard, and only have ridden the Silver Line. You can still see the overhead wires on Mass Ave, Concord Ave, Huron Ave, Mount Auburn Street, Aberdeen Ave, and the Harvard Bus Tunnel (I might've missed some) and I wonder when they're gonna take them down. Hopefully SF and Seattle will keep their Trolleybuses, not to mention Philly and Dayton. (I never expected Dayton)

Don’t most modern tolleybuses have small batteries that allow for detours ?

So sad that most cityes prefer battery bus ower trolleybus. They dont realise how dangerous, polutting and week is battery.

On a serious note, I do wonder if left-wing politics plays a role in both cities keeping trolleybuses, as they're better for the environment than either diesel or battery (at least, if there's a clean power source! big if...) and left-leaning politicians are generally more likely to bankroll something that looks and feels "clean"

Are you going to make a future video about BART?

Can you do one on Canada's Trollys?

This is such a shame... Trolleybusses are great for medium capacity routes and for places where tram or light rail isn't realistically possible. Yes, they cost a lot to build, but the vehicles are extremely cheap to buy and to maintain and they can run like any other bus on the street, without big modifications. They also accelerate quicker than normal busses, and all this without emissions. Battery electric busses are just a cheap copycat that will cause problems in 10 years when the cells have degraded...

3:40 *Canada does not exist *Neither does Mexico 😂😂😂

i think that trolleybuses aren't the future of transit but are a cheap option rather than streetcars, specially in the US. (also Canada and Mexico are cardboard countries)

Unfortunately, San Francisco is hoping to never buy trolleybuses again and eventually convert their entire bus system to battery electric. While it may be more cost-effective and reduce some of the technological limitations, I'll certainly miss the sounds and sights of trolleybuses in a few years!

The old argument about needing to have a wire is no longer valid. There is no current model made by any manufacturer that doesn’t have at least SOME off wire ability. This might be only 5 minutes or so, but usually a lot longer, like an hour or two. In fact I see many many MUNI busses running poles down these days, with the driver raiding them at the end as they go on break, or raising them before a large hill.