Tudor Historian Reacts to The Tudors Season 4 Part 1 

Exactly!!!!

Absolutely go Katherine Howard. I wish she had survived into Elizabeth's reign.

In addition, she was 15-17 years old (beheaded by the age of 17-19). I find it obscene they portray this barely out of childhood-girl as a bimbo, where the bile should be directed against the 50 year old horror, the elephant with a body covered in purulent boils emanating a foul stench, the one she was forced to marry, and against those who forced her to marry him.

That’s an excellent point actually!!!!

well, that's subjective! Not that I consider Johnathan Rhys Meyers unattractive or anything, but he really wasn't enchanting to me either!

Yes!

I didn’t pick it up but YOU ARE SO SPOT ON! Well done you!!

Them being cousins too….

Thank you SO SO MUCH for being here!!! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻❤️

I think you're right. And she was Queen Consort of Spain later on but she would never leave England for it which I think is remarkable given how much she suffered there with what happened with her parents and the death of her mother.

@@ElleHistory For sure I would think she would have preferred to be in another country at that point. Away from her awful father.

such a valid point here! thanks for sharing!

Jon, you're totally right on this. It is an epic TV show!!

Thanks so much for being here. I’m so grateful!

Such a valid point here. You're right

@@ElleHistory Thanks. Yes, noawadays, I don't think she'd be portrayed like this, but back then, we didn't know any different.

@@Jamestopboy We need another version of the Tudors :D

@@ElleHistory We do indeed - we got close with The Spanish Princess, but not far enough into the reign, sadly.

@@Jamestopboy I'm actually releasing a History Police video of the Spanish Princess in late December... I like it but there are also so many problems.. But yes I see what you mean!

Thank you! I will be reviewing the Spanish Princess (it will be released on 29 December at 4pm UK time).

Thanks so much for being here 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🥰

That’s a fair point!

She was! No doubt! Thanks so much for being here, Ali!

@@ElleHistory je vous en prie 🌸

Yes... I'd still like a better portrayal of her somewhere... haha

Yes to that!

You know what I pondered about these scenes… but the thing we have about Catherine Howard comes from sources that are a bit unbiased so hard to be very sure it happened and I thought other scenes showed Catherine as annoying enough haha True for Henry but I’m not sure he actually did regret it. And also his remorse in my views meant nothing when we see how he continued to be have… I’m not sure if Culpepper did or not and I felt a bit sick about that scene… but I take your point. I love Anne of Cleves, the historical character and the portrayal 😊

This is an excellent point. I will make a video on the sisters and their different proposals when princesses upon my return from my maternity leave. You’re a genius!

@@ElleHistory No, just a dyslexic academic philosopher. The Tudor period is my current little obsession due to it's relationship to 'Brexit, and the changes in thinking due to the 'Reformation'. But as far has women in British history an analysis of the 2 daughters would be amazing. It's such a fascinating period for women. You can not get back the time you have with your little one, so take as long as you can, we will all be here no matter how long you feel you need. 💜

This is going to be a bit long, but I thought your post deserves an answer. So, please bear with me. 🙂 There is an explanation why he may have thought she was a virgin. They didn't view sex and marriage the same way we do today. Regarding virginity, they didn't pay attention to the hymen like we do today. What they took as signs of virginity were the breasts and general body shape, like hips... This is why you see Henry mention that she wasn't a virgin and he speaks about Anne's body shape, about her breasts, and this is why in real life, such things were invoked to justify his annulment. There was a commission formed to look into this and everyone just raced to criticise everything about her: smell, clothes, drooping breasts, etc. implying she wasn't a virgin. So, the remarks about her body weren't about Anne's beauty per se, but more about her chastity. This is what they're getting at and yes, the words you see Henry speak in the scene with Cromwell were things that were mentioned in the proceedings. They also mentioned she had been pre-contracted to someone else, which brings me to the next point. Marriage. Today, we have a clear line between unmarried and married, before and after a specific ceremony. They didn't have that. There was a lot of grey area who was and who wasn't married. Arranged marriages worked something like this: you had the parents who negotiated it like a contract, the kids were supposed to at least not hate one another. Love wasn't a requirement, but at least there shouldn't have been any open opposition on their part. After the negotiation was concluded, they could be considered married... maybe... depending on what was agreed exactly. Then they would have been free to consumate the marriage even if there hadn't been any ceremony. In fact, even peasants, some would marry without a priest, just 2 people with some witnesses exchanging vows and they would have been seen as legally married. It was seen as legit. Being pre-contracted to someone could mean you were married. The marriage ceremony was optional, but consummation was mandatory. They even had marriage by proxy. Henry VIII had a sister Mary who married the King of France and they had the French ambassador to England basically take part in the ceremony and say "yes" on behalf of the French king. And they even had the consummation part...by proxy, meaning he got into bed with her, everyone watching them and he rubbed his feet to hers... and that was considered consummating the marriage... It was official in their view, even though Mary hadn't even met King Louis XII. This is why in analysing Catherine's situation, the fact that her and Dereham had consummated their relationship and had called each other husband and wife... it could have indicated they were married, even if they didn't go to church. Catherine admitted they did do that, but strongly denied she meant it, i.e. they weren't actually married in her view. And this is why Henry having sex with her before the actual ceremony would have been still seen as within the bounds of matrimony, because she had said yes to him and they were free to consummate. So, putting these 2 elements together and you could see why based on merely the shape of her body and what "before marriage" meant to them, Henry may have thought she was a virgin before marriage.

@@octavianpopescu4776 oh, sorry, i think i wasnt clear in what i was meaning. I dont mean in real life, i mean in the show. And I mean for just Catherine Howard part of the series. While they looked at the body for signs of virginity, they also looked at how a girl behaved. A girl who sucks on a ring the way she did when she first met him wouldve been seen as questionable to the populace, had that been public. Henry wouldve def seen it as an invitation...as well as she is probably promiscuous. And its not just that part. Its been a minute since ive seen that season so dont remember everything off the top of my head, but theres other things they have Tamzin do that wouldve def been seen as only being done by an experienced woman. Realistically, the truth is more likely on the lines of like you said, not promiscuous, but truly believed as a young naive girl that she was getting married. If...she even slept with him. And more than likely was much more nervous her first time meeting, and sleeping with Henry. But the show gives us what appears to be a promiscuous teen girl very knowledgable in the ways of "love", so to speak lol. Henry would NOT have believed the show version of Catherine Howard was a virgin prior to marriage. And he certainly wouldnt have been genuinely shocked when news of her prior experiences were told to him. That is...if we go by Tamzins version of Catherine Howard. I hope thats clearer, but feel free to let me know if not.

​@@Rhaenarys The show is... a show, it's not a documentary film and its primary purpose is entertainment, not information. So, I'd give them some leeway. Then historians themselves were split on what she was like. Terms like "oversexed teen", "juvenile delinquency, wanton selfishness and ephemeral hedonism", "giddy", "mercurial", "empty headed", "certainly promiscuous", "incredibly stupid" were used by actual historians to describe her. And this matches the show's tone. The video mentions Gareth Russell's book "Young and Damned and Fair". Conor Byrne has other 2 books about Katherine Howard. Problem is, all these books re-evaluating her life, came out a few years after the show was over. I think, at the time, they did what they could with what they had and what they had was BOTH "poor Katherine" and "oversexed teen". And that's how you get "I thought she was a virgin" and the ring kissing stuff, even if sure, it doesn't make much sense, as you rightly point out.

Exactly… honestly what a sad fate! Thanks for being so supportive always!

I’m with you on all your points!!!!! 👍🏻👍🏻

Well this show was certainly written in the pre me too era(by a good few years) and it really shows in the portrayal of Katherine Howard especially.

The problem with Dereham and Katherine is that they DID go through a form of betrothal/marriage and slept together, so technically Catherine wasn’t free to marry Henry when she did - because she was Dereham’s “wife”; they’d slept together, made a vow to marry, called one another husband and wife (Dereham even left her some of his money to handle as his “wife” while he travelled to Ireland) - and back then, that’s all that mattered. So they were married. As for whether she couldn’t make a choice with Dereham - remember, back then we didn’t have women’s rights and consent: yes, even said in fear, meant yes. They didn’t have the legal right to say no.

@@Jamestopboyagree-the 1500s was a totally different time in terms of how childhood was viewed. Girls could marry as young as 12, and KH was probably 15-17, which would have been considered adulthood back then. Looking at the past through 21st century eyes is difficult at times, but we have to try. And yes, she and Dereham had “married” and done the deed.

@@BlessYourHeart254 Yep. As far as things were concerned back then, Katherine was Mrs Dereham. End of, as far as that time period is concerned.

Exactly :)

I honestly see your point and I think in many ways you're right but I also think Mary was suffering a great deal at that point and never recovered from her mother's death. Maybe she was appalled at how her mum kept being replaced... But your point is very valid!

@@ElleHistory True I think it was probably easier for Elizabeth and Edward who never knew their mothers and were very young to get used to having so many new stepmothers but for Mary it was a lot harder to accept that reality because she did remember her mom. Tear. I do like Mary a lot in this show as well, Sarah Bolger does a lovely job portraying her, I just wish she had been kinder to Katherine Howard. Both women had difficult lives and deserve empathy.