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Turbo vs Supercharging in WW2 Airplanes 

Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
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I couldn't think of a good title for this video. It's about the road to turbosupercharging and comparisons with the multi stage mechancially driven superchargers typically used in US Navy fighters of the war.
This is a long and complex video, the first half or so is a little dry, but that background information is a part of the story.
If you are new to this channel, I suggest you watch some of my other videos first, unless you already have an understanding of manifold pressure, supercharger throttling and other technical details related to this subject. Here are two videos I suggest:
• Grumman Wildcat and FM-2
• P51 Mustang Manifold P...
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28 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 1 тыс.   
@danielstickney2400
@danielstickney2400 6 лет назад
Fun fact: That big building in the foreground of the aerial photograph of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway? It's the Allison aircraft engine factory -- it's literally just across 16th street.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
Oh, an Easter egg! I didn't even know it was there, cool.
@frankcopland3565
@frankcopland3565 2 года назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles LLm
@andyharman3022
@andyharman3022 2 года назад
I'm not sure about that factory in the picture, one way or the other. I lived in Speedway (on 15th Street) and worked at Allison from 1980 to 1985. Allison Plant 1 was further down Main Street, which is in the lower left corner of the picture at 5:52 . When I lived there, the building occupying the space was a Union Carbide plant, but it wasn't the plant in the picture. Allison Plant 3 was down at the end of Main St, on 10th. That was a huge manufacturing plant. And about 10 miles away, close to the airport, was Allison Plant 5 that was even bigger. Plant 5 was one of those 6-week wonders that was built in 1942, where production started before the roof was even finished. Maybe that was Allison Plant 2 in the picture?
@rogerpattube
@rogerpattube 3 года назад
‘I may do a video on the Thunderbolt’. Nice foreshadowing and understatement.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 3 года назад
It just shows how I didn't really have a solid plan. I certainly didn't think it would be an eight part series.
@rogerpattube
@rogerpattube 3 года назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Epic, just epic!
@clausrnfeldtwillemoes7381
@clausrnfeldtwillemoes7381 6 лет назад
It is becoming more and more clear to me that the Thunderbolt was one hell of a fighter - -thanks for this post.
@davidvalter1936
@davidvalter1936 5 лет назад
Just couldn't turn very well
@spindash64
@spindash64 5 лет назад
A dinosaur with good proportions
@kubanskiloewe
@kubanskiloewe 4 года назад
with a cockpit big like a dance hall
@richardlahan7068
@richardlahan7068 4 года назад
@@davidvalter1936 It could turn just fine at high altitude. Later models (late model Ds and Ms) were faster than P-51s at altitude. At lower altitudes, they were not as maneuverable .
@rob5944
@rob5944 4 года назад
@@richardlahan7068 As long as you didn't need to fly too far!
@lavernedofelmier6496
@lavernedofelmier6496 4 года назад
I’m an old manual machinist, would have been awesome to make the prototypes of these turbochargers from prints to help help win the war. The technology from the 20s to the present is unbelievable on the aviation front. Thanks for the video.
@carlosandleon
@carlosandleon 3 года назад
Yeah, would have kept the allies away for longer.
@TJH1
@TJH1 6 лет назад
I count myself so lucky to have stumbled across your channel. I am learning so much that it is actually rather exciting. Huge thanks.
@migkillerphantom
@migkillerphantom 6 лет назад
The youtube algorithm works, doesn't it
@b.griffin317
@b.griffin317 6 лет назад
trevor: heartily agree!
@alexanderhartmann7950
@alexanderhartmann7950 6 лет назад
This.
@kaveebee
@kaveebee 5 лет назад
Yes I totally agree with you. He should giving lectures at a university he's that good to listen to. Totally opposite of boring!
@ztoob8898
@ztoob8898 5 лет назад
I'd like to add my thumbs-up vote for these videos. Very informative, well-researched, and you have a good speaking voice. Keep up the good work, Greg! (So good I clicked the Subscribe button for the first time in my life.)
@brianhaygood183
@brianhaygood183 Год назад
The P-39 is just awesome. I am always amazed that I never heard of one for the first 40-odd years of my life, despite a resounding interest in aircraft.
@chrisnizer1885
@chrisnizer1885 5 лет назад
Gotta love The Juggernaut. It was a battle axe in the company of rapiers such as the Spitfire, Mustang, ME-109, A6M Zero. It could absorb amazing punishment and still get a pilot safely home. Not to mention the enormous punishment it could deliver with 8 Browning M-2 "Ma Deuce" .50 cals. Thanks for another great presentation. These lectures are not only very informative, they're always a pleasure to watch.
@marcusrussell8660
@marcusrussell8660 6 лет назад
I want to thank you for the documentation you provided. I am a retired Army senior officer the saying that you either continue to learn or fade into oblivion. Your research is the best. Thanks
@glennkrieger
@glennkrieger 5 лет назад
You have a gift sir. Easily understood even with a rudimentary background in engines. The time it must take you to put one of these videos together so eloquently is only superseded by the quality of the end product I'm sure. Thank you for caring immensely about what you consider a helpful and informative video for the rest of us!
@M80Ball
@M80Ball Год назад
You’ve taught me I know nothing.
@RandomTorok
@RandomTorok 6 лет назад
As a young man working as a heavy equipment mechanic, I worked on some big ore haulers that were powered by big v16 diesel engines. They were turbo charged, intercooled and supercharged. Four exhaust driven turbo chargers pushed air into an intercooler and then the cooled air went through the belt driven supercharger which rammed the air into the cylinders. Those engines were rated at about 2200 horsies.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
There is some impressive tech in the Diesel powered heavy machinery world. Thanks for your comment.
@andrewrichardt1475
@andrewrichardt1475 4 года назад
Hi Greg, As an avid aviation enthusiast as well as a driven gearhead, these videos of yours are absolutely fantastic. Thank you for the effort you put into them and keep them coming.
@davidelliott5843
@davidelliott5843 3 года назад
Rolls Royce with both Merlin and Griffon stuck with a two stage supercharger because their iterative design methods created a system which worked extremely well. Their blower was so good they used it on the Nene turbo jet used in many early jets.
@2down4up
@2down4up 7 месяцев назад
I know I’m watching this 5 years late but I thought I’d just point out the auto brand I work for has been using electric supercharging successfully for a few years now. However, only within certain limitations. It’s on their highest performing cars and only acts as a super charger in high load low speed applications where the relatively large turbo isn’t doing much. In such an application, the electric supercharger will spin up within .5 seconds to max boost of 7 pounds for a max of 5 seconds. By this time the transmission has downshifted, the engine has spun up, and the big turbo is moving some serious air. At this point the electric supercharger is no longer needed and shuts down. This runs on a “48v” power system and actually works quite well. Unfortunately the reliability of the first gen 48v system was pretty bad for the first several years until the horrendous software and hardware issues were worked out. Fortunately the 2nd gen 48v system was much better and most of the electric superchargers were on the 2nd gen system. They just released an even newer system that deletes the electric supercharger altogether and moved to an electrified turbo charger. This means in low speed high load applications there’s a still 48v electric bolted to the turbo which can spin the turbo to high boost speeds even though the engine isn’t yet moving enough air. It works about as seamlessly as the electric supercharger, so it’s quite good. They claim that it can also function as an energy recovery system to recharge the 48v battery in certain applications. Love your technical videos, keep up the great work Greg!
@exhilarationaccelerationpo9082
@exhilarationaccelerationpo9082 4 года назад
My Dad 2-15-1921 to 3-7-2019 spent most of his time in WWII as a C47 Hump Pilot, often mentioned B17s, B29s, P38s, "Zeros" vs P47s, F2G-1 "Super" Corsair, German Tanks, Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4. He was glade the Germans ran outta Gas and of course We watched Baa Baa Black Sheep a lot on what was then called TV. P47 is our favorite too :) ...Thank you for this!
@festol1
@festol1 6 лет назад
All love to the Jug. Indeed an aircraft made for warfare not for showrooms and posters.
@spindash64
@spindash64 5 лет назад
Fábio I think you basically just quoted Kurt Tanks design doctrine for the 190. Which makes sense, admittedly, since they both made a departure from the standard fighter design dogma of the time
@30AndHatingIt
@30AndHatingIt 4 года назад
I love jugs too! ;)
@zandvoort8616
@zandvoort8616 4 года назад
Quite agree. The jug was a proper warbird.
@rob5944
@rob5944 4 года назад
@@zandvoort8616 Till they had to turn round and go back.
@zandvoort8616
@zandvoort8616 4 года назад
Rob Val, according to Greg they didn’t have to if they were allowed to use the belly tanks.
@chrisk1944
@chrisk1944 4 года назад
Turbosuperchaging... how nice to hear what something is REALLY called
@cannonfodder4376
@cannonfodder4376 6 лет назад
Stunningly informative as always. I have learned new things from this video, the details regarding Turbo's advantages over Superchargers is very illuminating in particular. As well as the pre-war swing back to Inline engines, I always thought aerodynamics were the primary culprit (although probably partial). I look forward to the next Aeroplane video.
@james5353
@james5353 5 месяцев назад
Just the perfect level of detail - and hardly any stupid ads - thankyou
@jimciancio9005
@jimciancio9005 3 года назад
Wow Greg, thank you so much for this educational video! I've been wondering for years now what people like my grandfather and father was talking all about around the dinner table at night! Growing up, all I ever heard was the wonderful 2 and 3 stage superchargers of the old piston plane kicking ass in WWII. Then there was the confusion of turbochargers mixed together with superchargers all working on different levels of altitude from ground level to dog fights! I say this about cars from the 1920-30s you had to be an engineer just to go for a drive in those old things! It's amazing the amount of technology gains between the 30s into the 40s though. Shit they even have a primitive auto pilot system in the B-17s which was absolutely unheard of for those days. I understand now the importance of the explosives kept on board some aircraft to prevent them from falling into enemy hands intact. Especially parts like the Nordon bomb sight, with the description in the hand book of how to destroy it with your .45 cal side arm. But really I thank you so very much for doing this video! It maybe a little dry for some to endure, but I found it very very fascinating. I can't wait to go through your other videos, we need this history preserved being the Greatest Generation is now all but dying off and with them the loss of so much knowledge of these aircraft and engines!
@fishsquishguy1833
@fishsquishguy1833 4 года назад
The best in depth WWII aircraft channel! The fact that you like performance automobiles is just gravy. I think that’s how a lot of us got into one or the other because of so much of automobile performance is just trickle down aircraft tech anyway. Great channel!
@al_capad
@al_capad 6 лет назад
Jesus, Greg, this is amazing work you've put up. I salute you, sir!
@damiandelapp5490
@damiandelapp5490 4 года назад
I am often at a complete loss for words when it comes to the rapid advancement in performance technology in such a short period of time..just amazing!
@eriktruchinskas3747
@eriktruchinskas3747 4 года назад
The kinda sick thing is do you think that such advancements would have been accomplished if we weren't at war?
@lahockeyboy
@lahockeyboy 4 года назад
Hey, Greg! Just wanted to tell you how much I love your videos... thanks for all your efforts.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 4 года назад
Thanks Thomas!
@richardniven675
@richardniven675 5 лет назад
I loved your analysis of forced induction aero engines. My Dad was a pre and post WW11 aero engineer and I was an Airforce pilot flying Supercharged radials. For the first time with your video I have found a realistic analysis of aircraft without emotion (apart from the usual aviator enthusiasm) and without pushing a particular POV.Many thanks.You, as a Yank, have an american view but that is fine. I will look for your video on the P51 (esp the Packard Merlin version). Aerodynamics (innovations) in my opinion also have a great role in aeroplane design. I note that the Spitfire wing, being so thin had by accident a very high mach number although a very expensive 'plane to make compared with the Hurricane. Still, I am only an ex pilot, not an engineer but I respect engineers. I also comment that the carbed Spit had limited inverted (negative g) performance compared with the injected 109s. (having flown a carbed ww11 aeroplane I can attest to the limited negative G issue, not that negative g is pleasant having done one neg G loop)
@notaire2
@notaire2 6 лет назад
Der Unterschied zwischen den beiden Formen der Anlage wird von diesem ausgezeichneten Video völlig und verständlich erklärt. Echt super!
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
Thanks notaire2, that's a high compliment.
@notsureyou
@notsureyou 6 лет назад
I'm not sure if you have read much on the turbo charger development done on the BMW 801: "As just one result of the highest level of priority given to the successful 801 design's further development, a number of attempts were made to use turbochargers on the BMW 801 series as well. The first used a modified BMW 801D to create the BMW 801J, delivering 1,810 PS (1,785 hp, 1,331 kW) at takeoff and 1,500 hp (1,103 kW) at 12,200 m (40,000 ft), an altitude where the D was struggling to produce 630 hp (463 kW). The BMW 801E was likewise modified to create the BMW 801Q, delivering a superb 1,715 hp (1,261 kW) at 12,200 m (40,000 ft), power ratings no existing Allied radial engine of a similar displacement could match. The turbocharger was fitted to the top rear of the engine at a 30° forward tilt, and had hollow turbine blades. Not many of these engines ever entered production due to high costs, and the various high-altitude designs based on them were forced to turn to other engines, typically the Junkers Jumo 213."
@notaire2
@notaire2 6 лет назад
notsureyou Thanks for your informative and detailed reply. German ingenuity in technology was not necessarily realized in the field of producing consumer goods.
@stevewatson1640
@stevewatson1640 5 лет назад
@@notaire2 Engineers are helpless when beholden to lunatics, and Germans seem more prone to 'Crazy Harry' than most.
@notaire2
@notaire2 5 лет назад
+Steve Watson 'Crazy Harry' is sometimes called 'Deutsche Gründlichkeit' in negative meaning.
@rickbrown9523
@rickbrown9523 5 лет назад
Great channel. Thank you. There are several hybrid electric/exhaust turbine driven turbochargers under development by major manufacturers including BMW. Benefits include reducing turbo lag by driving the compressor stage electrically to compensate.
@aussiebloke609
@aussiebloke609 6 лет назад
You had me liking this video the moment you said "turbo-supercharger." It still amazes me how many don't understand that the term "supercharge" means what it says: to increase the charge in the cylinder beyond what could normally be attained. Everything else references the means of powering the compressor, whether it be a turbo/turbine, toothed belt, gear drive, direct drive, etc. - even if they aren't always stated in vernacular usage. (And yep, that means electric turbochargers can't exist - it's just an electric motor that could theoretically be attached to any style of supercharger, whether it be Rootes, centrifugal, etc.) Great video. Love the details for all us enginerds. :-)
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
Good point. The word supercharger seems to be highly misunderstood.
@brucemcgeehan2847
@brucemcgeehan2847 5 лет назад
This video dose not mention Sir Stanley Hooker the best super charger designer in the world eg p51 and modern jet engines built under licence in the us and harier and RB211
@stevewatson1640
@stevewatson1640 5 лет назад
@@brucemcgeehan2847 Do you want a 4 hour or a 40 minute video? :-) Sir Stanley wouldn't mind; his autobiography is titled "Not Much of an Engineer". Modest chap!
@sotros1
@sotros1 5 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles : Hi, Greg. Great videos. Good level of detail and fine presentation. I think the term "supercharger" originally meant "mechanically driven forced induction" because that's the only kind there was. Gas turbines are really hard to make, primarily from a material science standpoint. When good refractory metals, high-temperature lubricants and cooling techniques came along, it became necessary to distinguish between the two types. Thus "turbo-supercharger". It's a little clumsy having to use "supercharger" as both a general and a specific term. I've read a few articles in which the author refers to the mechanical types as "blowers" and the exhaust-driven variety as "turbos". Completely unambiguous, I think, and somehow more satisfying.
@Rift45
@Rift45 3 года назад
The turbo developers would be proud to see today’s automobiles! Sweet running and powerful little motors
@liangwang4089
@liangwang4089 6 лет назад
The jugs are always a favorite of mine, a clear example of how you can afford to have less than ideal aerodynamics if you have a monstrous engine.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
Yes, but I do want to stress that the Jug's wing was actually really aerodynamic at the time the plane came out, thus drag wasn't that bad.
@liangwang4089
@liangwang4089 6 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Yes that's why I used less than ideal rather than just bad. On a similar issue, people often believe a radial engine have a horrible drag compared to liquid cooled one when the difference is often less than what people expect.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
The radials eventually won out over the V-Types. I'll talk more about that soon.
@jaredneaves7007
@jaredneaves7007 6 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles I'm interested in hearing how you draw that conclusion. You will probably convince me, but for now I honestly don't see many radials these days down at the airport.
@liangwang4089
@liangwang4089 6 лет назад
@@jaredneaves7007 I cannot comment on how the radials won, however I can point out that almost all propeller aircraft nowadays are turbo props. Meaning the propeller is driven by a gas turbine. This might be the reason you mistaken them as liquid cooled piston engines. Piston engines are de facto dead on modern propeller aircrafts.
@estern001
@estern001 5 лет назад
Wow! I built all these aircraft as models as a kid in the '70's. I went on to maintain Tomcats and Hornets in the Navy. But I never really considered them from a performance perspective. All I cared about was ease of maintenance or cool factor. Very informative. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
@b1laxson
@b1laxson 4 года назад
Having just watched #7 Firepower and still in lock down this seems like a good day to rewatch the entire playlist. Good job on discussing numerous design tradeoff aspects. Even if not building a plane the way designs trade getting this but losing that is just as relevant today.
@acefighterpilot
@acefighterpilot 6 лет назад
Your channel remains outstanding, Greg. I thoroughly enjoyed this longer format presentation. Yours is the most satiating channel I've discovered this year, your content bears a certain fullness. It's nice to know that all of the older folk with an appreciation for hand drawn diagrams, thick charts, and ancient technical studies haven't yet bit it, especially in light of the superficial engineering channel trend. Will you consider exploring further your curiosities for the logical evolution of the turbocharger; deleting the piston nonsense entirely and locating the combustion chamber between the compressor and turbine? I spent the formative years of my early career with the J79 and Allison 250, both items I'd love to see technical documents for again.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
Thanks. I use the old drawings from NACA for two reasons. First they are original source materiel, second, my computer skills are limited, so I can't make fancy graphics. You correct about the relationship between the turbocharged piston engine and the turbine engine. If you add enough stages of supercharging, pretty soon, you don't need pistons, just add a turbine and some burner cans. That's over simplifying of course, but you get it.
@mrj4990
@mrj4990 6 лет назад
Youre an engine god
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
Wow, thank you.
@mrj4990
@mrj4990 6 лет назад
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles because of you, I focused much more on the internal modules and the aerodynamics of all the planes I’ve always studied, and it’s making me go deeper into every aspect, doing God’s work.
@martintaper7997
@martintaper7997 3 года назад
The diesel engine in the Junkers 86 was also a two stroke in an inline configuration with opposing pistons and two crankshafts, a concept rarely used but still being refined and used today in specific applications often military. The plane was also used as a high altitude bomber until the allies adapted fighters for high altitude to be able to attack them.
@jacktattis
@jacktattis Год назад
The Dornier Do 217P 58000 ft ALL INLINE
@seth1422
@seth1422 6 лет назад
These are great videos, thank you. I’ve always wondered about just this issue. If my vote counts, I’d love to see a P-47 video.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
It counts, and that's happening.
@seth1422
@seth1422 6 лет назад
That's fantastic, thank you!
@TrySomethingsOnce
@TrySomethingsOnce 5 лет назад
Excellent video! You covered a lot of information and evolution of turbochargers and superchargers without getting deeply mired down too in specifics. Keep up the efforts and I'm glad I found your channel!
@George-bz1fi
@George-bz1fi 3 года назад
Finally a clear explanation of this supercharging thing, thanks.
@louismorel2001
@louismorel2001 5 лет назад
I still.don't believe that videos like that exist Very sharp knowledge
@clydecessna737
@clydecessna737 4 года назад
For a future video could you discuss the armaments of fighters. Why the British stuck to .30 then jumped to 20 mm canon while the US stayed with .50 during the war and even in the F-86. I am learning a lot from you.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 4 года назад
I will cover that in a future P-47 episode.
@gregoryfuller1136
@gregoryfuller1136 6 лет назад
Love the technical details I never heard anywhere else. And you have a cool name.
@otm646
@otm646 6 лет назад
This is one of the most informative videos I've ever seen posted.
@sahhaf1234
@sahhaf1234 5 лет назад
I was looking for this sort of information for a long long time.. Thank you very much for your effort.
@gregparrott
@gregparrott 5 лет назад
Great detail on an interesting topic. The turbo's advantage of not linking the vane's speed to the engine's crankshaft speed, is primarily realized because the vane speed is essentially governed by the back-pressure of the air it has compressed. So, if the ambient air pressure is low, the vanes spin at a faster speed until sufficient back-pressure imposes its limit.
@jaredneaves7007
@jaredneaves7007 6 лет назад
Yes! I saw the thumbnail and went nuts 👌
@benjaminnielsen4288
@benjaminnielsen4288 4 года назад
I always wondered why the Jug was so damn big! Now I know ~The Radial Fighter that went farther, rocked a Turbo Charger~ What a plane :)
@Ebergerud
@Ebergerud 6 лет назад
Keep it coming Greg. Analog technology is very neat - you can even understand it. And hats off to the people that created better planes and cars through say 1960. I wouldn't dismiss the great improvements in efficiency and safety in the last sixty years (and certainly not the power of "smart weapons") - but in a functional sense, how much better is a Boeing Dreamliner than a 707? The 707 flew nearly 60 years ago - sixty years before the 707 there weren't airplanes. Think about something like the Ford Cobra or the mid-60s Ferraris - how much neater is a modern super car? How much more practical is a 2018 Civic over a 1963 Dodge Dart? I spend the summer in St. Paul. Every June there's a "Back to the 50s" festival where auto enthusiasts bring their cherry stock or elaborately modified rides from the 50s & 60s. (Some MGAs and Austin Healys show up too - my old honeys.) Guys of my generation (and even a lot of the gals that were touched by the car culture) can spend an hour or two identifying year and make. (I've got Chevys down pat: some of the mid-50s Fords fool me.) Can you imagine that happening two generations from now? "Look grandpa - a 2014 Civic!"
@super3800yt
@super3800yt 6 лет назад
Another excellent video! I had not realized that the Corsair and the Jug shared basic engines, with different ways to boost them. That made for a great comparison of boosting types. Thanks again, and keep the videos coming!!
@PappyGunn
@PappyGunn Год назад
And so ended Cutiss attempts to build a turbocharged fighter. Love the picture by the way. Very subtle, I even got that one.
@skyflier8955
@skyflier8955 6 лет назад
Looking forward to that hour hour long video on the P-38 and P-47. :)
@MicheleBoland
@MicheleBoland 5 лет назад
One of the best deep dives I've run across!! Excellent data driven presentation!
@TheEnglishLongbow
@TheEnglishLongbow 5 лет назад
The Brits had the superchargers removed from their P-38s, which I always thought was somewhat stupid, but maybe you've supplied an answer as to why. However, I think the real answer is that it really was pretty stupid and indicative of British arms procurement. The P-51 and some Spits used the Meredith effect through their radiators, which as far as I'm aware was never successfully applied to a radial engine, although attempted. Nothing to do with supercharging, but I'd thought I'd throw that in as an example of how attempts to use physics to best advantage, were made.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 5 лет назад
Almost everybody was using the Merideith effect, The British, Americans, Germans, Soviets, and I'm pretty sure the Italians and Japanese. For some reason people think it was unique to the P51, but the Hurricane had it way earlier. I'll cover the British P-38s another time, but yes, removing the turbosuperchargers ruined the planes.
@joatmon6132
@joatmon6132 6 лет назад
You have some great videos. It's amazing that something so common in the German engineering of superchargers isn't documented, specifically, the 89 degree off set of superchargers,
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
I think it's documented somewhere, but it will probably take someone who speaks German to find it.
@brendanreed3378
@brendanreed3378 5 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Please do. I would like to know why this is the case.
@wntu4
@wntu4 5 лет назад
What an amazing channel. So much information. Subbed,
@gsr4535
@gsr4535 6 лет назад
Great topic Greg! I've always wondered about the difference between these two. There's a wonderful article back in the now defunct "Wings" magazine, from around the year 2000 titled "The Art of Supercharging" that is very good too.
@fa-ajn9881
@fa-ajn9881 6 лет назад
Favorite channel! Keep going!
@gonebamboo4116
@gonebamboo4116 5 лет назад
Recently discovered this channel and really enjoy/appreciate all the information taught here. I'm busy going back and catching up
@heisenberg1817
@heisenberg1817 4 года назад
You provide some of the best esoteric aircraft info on the internet
@AllWayzSomethin
@AllWayzSomethin 5 лет назад
Great info here. You sir did a lot of research for these videos. I just happened to stumble across your channel and now I’m hooked!
@mandernachluca3774
@mandernachluca3774 6 лет назад
It would be great if you would do a video about the Jumo 205 or diesel aircraft engines in general. Btw nice video, keep it up :D.
@dennismason3740
@dennismason3740 2 года назад
True Confession: I have been a WWII warbird fanatic since the late 1950s. It occurred to me, in 2020, that there is less oxygen at high altitude so how do the airplanes compensate? and I asked Greg who, I imagine, in the middle of a turbosupercharging video saw my question, rolled his eyes and said the obvious, without sarcasm. Learning!
@vaughanmayberry4089
@vaughanmayberry4089 4 года назад
Greg, Could you shed some light on the both the Ventura and Hudson medium bombers of WW2? They look like an American B25 or similar so I think they were renamed American planes. They were apparently very effective in the right conditions but still could not outpace German fighters. Devastating low level rockets and small arms attacks were among their strong suits it seems but you don't hear much about them. Great site!
@ME-xh7zp
@ME-xh7zp 3 года назад
Recent add to your channel, appreciate the in-depth assessments. Can't wait till you give the -38 the same treatment you gave -47. Thanks for the effort!
@reaperthemad8731
@reaperthemad8731 Год назад
For those that are really into supercharging and turbocharging, I highly recommend the books "Supercharged! Design Testing and Installation of Supercharger Systems" and "Maximum Boost Designing Testing and Installing Turbocharger Systems" - both by Corky Bell. These are geared toward cars but also do a great job of explaining the concepts of how these systems work. I spent a lot of years in the modified GM 3800 community, mostly with supercharged (or turbocharged) versions of the L67 and L32. Fun "engineering" sidebar, I was the first to come up with the idea to drill into the lower part of the side of supercharger to run a line over to the valve cover, maintaining positive crankcase ventilation with an intercooler installed. Prior to that (and even now) most people just ran valve cover breathers, which is less than ideal. Also Eaton's TVS line of roots superchargers are very impressive with efficiency - but the drawbacks on aviation applications you mention would still clearly apply.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
Those are good books, although I think mine is better ;) which is in the Patreon section and on Amazon. In regards to running CCV into the supercharger, why not just run it into the supercharger's inlet area just aft of the throttle? Or maybe that's what you are doing, I might be misunderstanding you. The TVS and latest Lysholms are very efficient. I have comparative charts for them along with the older 4th gen Roots types in my book.
@moxie_ST
@moxie_ST 6 лет назад
Great video, just great bro love it from start to end. Cant wheit for new one 👍✌️🤘
@CunoWiederhold
@CunoWiederhold 6 лет назад
Very informative! I've always known the differences between turbos vs supercharging in cars and even some aviation, but You break it down and answer the "whys" and "hows" from a technical standpoint and give many examples which explaines it all to me. In autos, though supercharging, the power is instantaneous whereas turbos have that lag in boost initially. The supercharges lose (they say) approximately 50% of its power because the crankshaft (gear or pulley) that drive the supercharges, so for cars, the application dictates their usage. With a supercharger, you can under drive, drive or overdrive them through gearing whereas a turbo just runs off the exhaust gas speed. A waste gate typically divert extra gases out of the compressor to prevent overcharging. That's just my take on these two marvels of engineering.
@danielreardon6453
@danielreardon6453 4 года назад
One of the only channels I can watch a long vid with out clicking off
@bobdyer422
@bobdyer422 6 лет назад
Excellent vid. Info I've never come across, and I appreciate you exposing, sharing and exploring all of it. Since the 47 is my favorite, I can't wait to view your next production. Thanks!
@RichardGoth
@RichardGoth 6 лет назад
Another great video!
@thesupacoop4002
@thesupacoop4002 5 лет назад
Thanks Greg, thoroughly enjoyed all of your videos thus far. Please post more. I am and have been for some time a great fan of the P47, a truly unsung hero of WW2 !!
@ronjon7942
@ronjon7942 2 года назад
Nice picture of the Curtiss P-6 Hawk, a beautiful craft. A deep-dive into it would be pretty amazing.
@davidelliott5843
@davidelliott5843 4 года назад
Rolls Royce somehow managed to create a very efficient supercharger. Probably a lot of trial and error but they had some excellent engineers who were allowed to play around. The Merlin 61 two stage blower was that good it made it into the early turbo jets.
@N4bpp1
@N4bpp1 5 лет назад
Love radial engines and thank you for your P-47 series my favorite WW II fighter.
@ronjon7942
@ronjon7942 2 года назад
Nice work, Greg. I’ll be rewatching this one several times to bake it all in.
@ronjon7942
@ronjon7942 2 года назад
Question: when mentioning throttling a geared supercharger, are you referring to the throttle within the pressure carb, or is there a butterfly valve that limits air entering the sc impeller? Also, I guess I don’t understand why superchargers ‘hate’ being throttled, could you touch on that or refer me to a presentation that explains that? Edit/add - I think after reading the text from the NACA document you used to present fig4 and 6 graphs (along w your explanations), I’ve a better grasp. Stil…
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 2 года назад
In a WW2 warplane engine the "carb" or whatever is being used is located upstream of the gear driven supercharger. Thus the butterfly valves on the carb itself restrict air going into the supercharger. Don't open them all the way, and you get less boost. It's really that simple.
@jamesallen8838
@jamesallen8838 6 лет назад
This really hit home for me. Your explanation was very interesting and informative. Keep up the great work
@mattjacomos2795
@mattjacomos2795 5 лет назад
I read today that the P38 had both turbochargers AND superchargers, I was never aware they had both. I came to watch this video to see if I could find further information on this issue and would really appreciate confirmation on this fact. Great videos BTW...
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 5 лет назад
HI Matt, that is absolutely correct. The P-38 does indeed have a supercharger and a turbocharger for each engine. It's set up much the way the P-47 is, except of course it's packaged differently to fit into a different airplane.
@mattjacomos2795
@mattjacomos2795 5 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles thank you Greg.
@johnr7279
@johnr7279 4 года назад
That poem at the end is awesome!
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 4 года назад
I think so too, I'm not a poetry guy, but that one is great.
@amlafrance1918
@amlafrance1918 6 лет назад
Brilliant Greg ! Well researched and presented. Makes me want my SAAB 900 Turbo back lol
@anthonys7311
@anthonys7311 3 года назад
This channel is awesome. P-47 is biggest and best. Now I have the info to argue with people on the internet. I think I found my first patreon.
@deep_dive6699
@deep_dive6699 5 лет назад
Something to consider, the exhaust of a turbo is depleted of pressure. The supercharged engine exhaust has spare pressure and if directed to the rear provides significant thrust. At higher speed this is equivalent to a substantial amount of engine power. Look up "Lovesey Merlin" for the details as to why the Merlin wasn't turbocharged.
@desobrien3827
@desobrien3827 5 лет назад
Love your channel, your research is very extensive and thorough. You must do a lot of time consuming searching for documents etc.
@johnmonkus4600
@johnmonkus4600 4 года назад
Turbo supercharger developments eased the development of the turbojet.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 4 года назад
Yes! John gets it.
@douglasames6495
@douglasames6495 3 года назад
Electric driven turbo-compressors are used to pressurize the cabin of the Boeing 787, unfortunately scaling down the massive generator and amp load for GA aircraft or automotive applications is still in the future.
@bills48321
@bills48321 6 лет назад
Great explanation! I can't wait for your P-47 video.
@douglasbrown9393
@douglasbrown9393 5 лет назад
Thanks for some good videos, Greg. One thing I would add, though: supercharging, though less efficient due to pumping losses and blower drive drag losses, did allow some energy recovery from exhaust gas thrust. I do not think think it was a large contribution, but it was measurable.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 5 лет назад
Yes, that's absolutely true. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-m2hZql6tD7c.html
@gardenvalley7057
@gardenvalley7057 4 года назад
As a Thermodynamics/Mechanical Engineer, I have always saw the pure luxury of the radials as the durable ground strike tool. The radials being air-cooled could be shot up & keep on fighting/getting the pilot back to a friendly base. I recently read Robert Johnson's description of being shot to pieces in a thunderbolt while still an FNG & trying to bailout but his canopy had no glass left but was frozen in the closed position. He could not get out with his parachute on thru the metal canopy frame which his early model P-47 had. So he just point the plane W & prayed he would at least get to the channel. An ME-109 come up while he was over on Belgium/Holland, flew at his wing a little while then went back & shot the 47 up with .30 cal mg. He then come up several times, indicated his shock @ the 47 still flying & shot it up some more. Robert later concluded that the 109 was winchester on 20mm cannon & only had the .30 cal mg left. The 109 kept shooting him up till they were ~1/2 way over the channel & left since 109 was going to get jumped by England Air cover. He finally got to a RAF base & made a perfect landing Then he climb the metal opening in canopy & passed out. He had three mg bullets in his legs & multiple shrapnel wounds. For the only time, he had forget his googles since they were broken & the new pair was not in proper kit. Therefore his eyes were in terrible shape from leaking hydraulic fluid & >200 mph wind stream. I believe he ended up #2 in ETO kills just behind Gabby who had 26 ¹/². Gabby was supposed to be getting on a boat for the states & he got impatient so he went back to his squadron. Being he commanded the squadron, he signed out a different P-47 with the new wide/longer paddle props. He went on a one man "rodeo" as they called it trolling for Abbeville(sp) FW-190 yellow nose boys to come up & play. Nobody came up so he went down & strafed an airfield but he broke the cardinal rule. "Don't make a 2nd pass". In the 2nd pass the flak was thick & he tried to get lower for 2 reasons. He was trying to flame up a 111 bomber plus get under the tower flak traverse angle but he hit the longer props therefore vibrating his plane to pieces. He crashed @ end of runway & ended up in a Luftwaffe POW camp as the allied commander. I believe he was LtCol or Col therefore was highest ranking allied prisoner. All these words with my main point being the liquid cooled engines could take a hit in coolant system & the plane is history in short order.
@Stretch213
@Stretch213 3 года назад
Ya should've read the poem. Good stuff my man
@wbwarren57
@wbwarren57 6 лет назад
Great video! It really helps explain the comparative advantage between different aircraft and the aircraft different nations. Thank you.
@michaelwillette5738
@michaelwillette5738 3 года назад
I only recently encountered your outstanding series. Your in-depth and detailed data take-always are fascinating. I am a military history degree candidate with an automotive racing background, heavily experienced with Porsche turbo cars. That said, auto and aviation turbo tech are apples and oranges. Within this, to paraphrase the late Smokey Unick: "The physics don't change. Just find another way to skin the cat". I believe more could be explored with regard to the uses of water-alcohol injection as well as nitrous- oxide (an installment maybe?). I am in the midst of a turbo project that will explore the outer limits of water-alcohol injection using WW2 data. Racers have hardly skimmed the surface... Again your series has been eye opener. Thank you!
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 3 года назад
I'm glad to hear you are using water injection. I agree it's effective and I have several videos about it, both aircraft, and automotive vidoes.
@michaelwillette5738
@michaelwillette5738 3 года назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles outstanding! Will find and check them out. Thanks. Look forward to more of your work.
@scottbaase4042
@scottbaase4042 4 года назад
The jug was a min-max fighter designed only with boom and zoom tactics. It cant dogfight in a turning battle, but anything that is in it's sight will be destroyed.
@Knuck_Knucks
@Knuck_Knucks 2 года назад
Well that wuz frog frik,'n great! Thanks Greg!
@davidsutton6863
@davidsutton6863 Год назад
Superb commentary, thank you. I'm learning so much.
@mlong5151
@mlong5151 6 лет назад
the b17 and b 24 led to the b29. that program cost 4 billion $ in 1940s money.the atomic bomb project cost 1 billion and produced 2 different systems . a uranium device and a plutonium device .. both were useless without a delivery system. the b29. but most miss the point . the us of the 1940s didnt make a atomic bomb. it made two
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
I am not sure I understand the connection, other than a turbocharged plane delivered the atomic bombs.
@mlong5151
@mlong5151 6 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles yes the b29 could fly higher than fighters of the time. the p51s that flew escort for the b29s had a lower cruise speed than the b 29.. thats why we needed iwo jima.. which led to the f 82 twin mustang
@peterstickney7608
@peterstickney7608 6 лет назад
Given the performance and limited bay size of the other WW2 heavy bombers (B-17, B-24, Lancaster and Halifax) none of them could carry either the Mk I (Little Boy) or Mk III (Fat Man) shape and be capable of surviving dropping the weapon. It had to be xomething capable of carrying a 60" diameter 10,00 lb shape at 30,000' and at least 300 mph TAS. Even then, Enola Gay and Bock's Car got bashed around quite a bit.
@kevinp8212
@kevinp8212 6 лет назад
Yes, so? It won the war and leap frogged the world in war technology. Have you ever been to Hanford? A great lost location to make plutonium. It's mark on the face of Earth's survival is nothing compared to the use of fossil fuels. Oh and uranium was not refined there, where did you get suh a wierd idea? They made plutonium there for years. Uranium enrichment was a much different thing altogether.
@roaklin
@roaklin 6 лет назад
oh get over yourself, it wasn't like they knew it was going to cause that much damage. And it not billions, but thanks for playing.
@dukecraig2402
@dukecraig2402 6 лет назад
Thanks for explaining that supercharging is both turbo and blower types, I've tried to explain that to people over the years only to have them argue about it, seems over the years the car mindset has kinda high jacked the "super" charging term for blowers and don't want to include turbo's as part of it, I read once that when Pratt&Whitney wanted to test a General Electric turbosupercharger on an engine they couldn't find a plane that was aerodynamically capable of flying high enough to test it so they drug one to the top of Pikes Peak for the test, the first high altitude test I suppose, and it got there by horse!!! You mentioned the Indianapolis speedway, there was another track in those days in my hometown in Pennsylvania that was the main rival of Indianapolis, it was a board track that was built by the owner of the newly formed Universal Studio's in Hollywood, it was a very prestigious race, the first championship race won there was won by no other than Louis Chevrolet himself, rich people and royalty used to attend the races there, sometime around 1919 a car (they used to race motorcycles there to) got away from someone and got into the stands resulting in the deadliest race accident in this country for some years, after the accident the track was closed and the racing crowd pretty much went to Indianapolis after that, try Googling Uniontown Speedway, I think Wikipedia has a page on it, I grew up about a mile from where it was, turned into a golf ball driving range by the time I grew up in the 70's, the truly ironic thing is before he built the track there he used to have a hill climb race, a half mile further up the road is the base of Mt Summit (a 3 mile assent that averages about 7%), every year for a few years he had races from the bottom to the top of the mountain, but I guess the county fathers said it was unsafe and forbid it after the last year they had it, then he built the track up the road, so it was almost the Uniontown hill climb (as opposed to Pikes Peak), then it was almost the Uniontown 500 (as opposed to the Indianapolis 500), man talk about bad luck.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
Thanks for your post. The story about taking an engine to the top of Pike's Peak for testing is true, I almost included that in this video, but I had to eliminate a lot of the early stuff because it was just getting to be too long. I didn't know about Uniontown, thanks, I'll read about it. You are correct that turbochargers are a type of supercharger, that's made clear in many NACA reports, not just number 384.
@dukecraig2402
@dukecraig2402 6 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles A good video to do would be on the turbocoupling on the 4 row Wright engine, sorry can't remember the nomenclature, and it's use combined with a turbosupercharger on that engine, or one on that whole engine, anyways keep up the good work on these videos they're very well researched and presented, also, do you have the valve timing and lift specs and connecting rod length of an R-2800 engine? I'm trying to make some calculations for a possible project and I can't seem to locate those specs, I have bore, and stroke but I need connecting rod length to get a stroke/rod ratio to be able to do the math for this (hopeful) project.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
You might be thinking of the 4 row P&W 4360. I'll cover the later radials after I add a bunch more WW2 stuff. I don't have those specs for the 2800, although you may be able to find them in an online overhaul manual. That's what I would try first.
@dukecraig2402
@dukecraig2402 6 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Wright R-3350 Duplex Cyclone, it had one turbosupercharger and 3 turbo/hydrocouplers, one of the most powerful ever made, several are still in use although like the one's in a water/firefighting tanker out west the FAA has dropped the maximum allowed power output on them because of their age, I don't know if the P&W 4 rows were turbo/hydrocoupled or not.
@dukecraig2402
@dukecraig2402 6 лет назад
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Sorry I meant 2 row, that's what I get for trying to type and fold my laundry at the same time.
@artistphilb
@artistphilb 5 лет назад
Interesting stuff, i never really considered the problems of putting turbo's on planes, although I had heard that the Germans were short of metals to make high temperature alloys which was probably why they didn't develop turbo's further and that turbo charging has some advantage at high altitude because the exhaust wants to come out faster in lower pressure.
@HerraTohtori
@HerraTohtori 6 лет назад
Great video. Excellent work on addressing the differences between mechanically driven superchargers and exhaust-driven turbosuperchargers. It would be great to see a follow-up video discussing how the German solution of driving a centrifugal compressor hydraulically compares to the mechanical and exhaust-driven compressors. As far as I understand, the hydraulic coupling allowed the compressor RPM to be infinitely variable (up to critical altitude), but the hydraulic power transmission was a bit less efficient than a direct gear drive? Would be interesting to see some numbers on exactly what were the advantages and disadvantages of each system. Speaking of Germans, they certainly tried to produce turbocharged fighters. To my knowledge, none of these attempts resulted in any kind of production beyond prototypes numbered on the fingers of one hand. The Focke-Wulf company tried to build high altitude variants of their Fw 190 fighter. The Fw 190 B was an attempt to turbocharge the original BMW 801 engine, while the Fw 190 C was supposed to use a turbocharged version of the Daimler-Benz DB 603 engine. Additionally, there was the Blohm & Voss Bv 155, a high altitude interceptor which was also supposed to use the DB 603 engine with a turbocharger. The Fw 190 B mostly had similar difficulties with the turbocharger installation as the Curtiss P-37 and the Bell P-39 attempts did, and they basically gave up on the concept after two prototypes. Instead continued developing the Fw 190 A-series by improving the supercharged BMW 801 engine's performance. The work on the Fw 190 C-model was more promising, with a total of 9 prototypes built according to Wikipedia's article on Fw 190 variants. I would guess that project got into difficulties because the DB 603 engines were limited and mostly reserved for other aircraft, such as the Do 217 and the Me 410. However, the modifications required for putting an in-line engine into the Fw 190 airframe were probably integral to the development of the very famous Fw 190 D model with the Jumo 213 engine, and the later Ta 152. The Bv 155 was originally (yet another) Messerschmitt project to create a replacement for the Bf 109, in this case it would have been the Me 409 (after the failures of the 1942 Me 309 design and the 1943 Me 209), it was then re-designated as Me 155. When it became obvious to RLM that Messerschmitt had too much work, they transferred the Me 155 project to Blohm & Voss, who basically nuked the whole concept with the exception of using the turbocharged DB 603A engine. Three prototypes were built, but the war ended while they were still under testing and development.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 лет назад
Hi Herra, great idea about comparing the US drive types with the German Fottinger type. The German type is really good, trying to do an apples to apples comparison will be tough, but I'll do what I can. I do think the Germans had a turbo Diesel bomber, I can't prove it though, but I think they actually have one, 100 percent intact and Wright Patterson, but you can't see it, it's in some hangar there.
@HerraTohtori
@HerraTohtori 6 лет назад
Packard appears to have done some testing with fitting a variable-speed supercharger into a Merlin engine: www.enginehistory.org/Turbochargers/PackardVSD/PackardVSD.shtml If there are any performance/altitude charts for this engine, that might allow a kind of "apples to apples" type comparison between regular Packard Merlins (with mechanically-driven, two-speed, two-stage superchargers) and this variable-speed supercharger. However, the variable-speed supercharger used by Packard appears to have been very different from the supercharger used by Daimler-Benz in the DB 601 and 605 engines. It had a two-stage compressor, and only the first stage impeller was driven by Fottinger couplings. The second stage impeller was driven mechanically. By contrast, the DB 601 and DB 605 engines used a single-stage, variable-speed compressor.
@Whiteshell204
@Whiteshell204 3 года назад
*Nothing beats the sound of a supercharger winding up....added one to my Toyota truck....she's a sleeeeper that makes the full-sized guys cryy when they can't keep upp*
@neoconshooter
@neoconshooter Год назад
27:30 into this video, I can't wait to see an entire series on the P-38 like you have done on the P-47! Performance of the P-38K, too! PS, the state of Wisconsin hates disabled vets and is going to make me wait FIVE YEARS before they grant me the "Disabled Veterans Property Tax Exemption"!!! Five years! I never would have bought this house if I'd known that!
@HernanMoragaMmHs
@HernanMoragaMmHs 5 лет назад
Nice poem at the end
@n7565j
@n7565j 6 лет назад
Excellent video sir!!! I've always thought of superchargers, (blowers) as car/truck engine components. And turbos as being on a/c engines. The navy needed a relatively cheap a/c for fleet defence, and the airforce needed to defend from the high flying bombers. Makes since after seeing your video, and you explain very well why they went the way they did :-) Thank you for digging in the weeds for us!!! And we may still yet see some of these technologies make a return to military aviation, all forces are looking for a (relatively) cheap replacement for the A-10 (low and slow troop defence a/c), we might still see a turbo radial or V-12 in a war hopefully NOT near you...
@ellenorbjornsdottir1166
@ellenorbjornsdottir1166 6 лет назад
Ducted fan diesel V12.
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