This is going to be the evolution of TMA to MMA. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-u8UPIf7yId0.html Que paso por Sabado? No problem. I like your channel. Commentary is commentary, training is training. Respect.
@@tonytrojan97 Dean is training students tomorrow at 12 noon at Virgina Park in Santa Monica. Don't think Jerry and I will be there but you should join them. Jerry is interviewing someone on his channel Jerry Learns Business.
@@RobWatt Thanks for the heads up. Don't think I'm going to make it, scheduled time with my kids this afternoon going fishing since they've been on me all week about it. I was trying to keep Saturday open, maybe next week. Thanks Rob! I'll check out Jerry's channel, sounds interesting. I've run my own company/business for over 15 years and the challenges are different from receiving a check from an employer.
The first guy is Kenji Kurosaki. Mas Oyama's best student. No he didn't study Muay Thai prior to this fight. However, after the fight he became a Kickboxer and founded Meijiro Gym, which is where the Dutch style originated.
Yeah, when Jerry and I looked at very old American boxing, they even had clinches and dirty fighting. It's so interesting how early stuff all looked the same: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-FZyXRVnQKkQ.html
Yeah definitely, a lot of stuff has been watered down to focus of the sport element which is a shame. Judo used to have more focus on ground work and you could use leg trips, Karate had a lot more throws and locks too. I'm pretty sure most TMA's have been diluted sadly.
Yeah, but throwing is good if you either can fight in the ground or if the ground is concrete, but that's not the case here, so what even is the point in throwing in these fights? You may wear out as much as your opponent doing the throw and not get any real advantage.
That’s partly because what we call throwing was really and VERY hard slam. TMA’s do teach this, conversely, that only works in a culture that has socialized medicine. Otherwise, the medical expenses are too high.
Hooks are already a knockout move. An elbow is just a hook where you make contact with your elbow instead of your fist. It's a much more rigid body without all the extra joint between shoulder and point of contact.
@@ethansmith8564 absolutely. It's a fast, effective and powerful movement. It's obviouly (preferably) used in face to face distances, but my god its so effective. I've always used it in a class (safely)
@@Domzdream elbows should be fast and focused and emphasis should not be placed on power at all. Speed and precision on elbows will always beat power because power makes it slower. Check out Karuhat, Yodkunpon and Hippy Singmanee.
Originally Okinawan Karate had takedowns. Many of the Katas through Bunkai (interpretation of the Kata) had takedowns. Most of these techniques got lost in translation when Karate became a sport. They are actually starting to re-emerge again .
Totally lost in translation I did goju ryu kyokushin and shotokan And most of the instructors knew the kata but they would all give us different applications, alot of them had. No clue, but throws make total sense now that i think about some of the moves In kata
@@nvanguy6868 the assumption in Okinawa when karate was made was that most of the okinawans, and indeed most of the Japanese even, already knew how to wrestle. karate was the system designed to teach people how to strike, specifically in combination with their wrestling (jiu jitsu, aiki jujitsu, judo etc.). thus, karate was a truly complete martial art. however, a little bit before world war II, a lot of Japanese started becoming big fans of Western boxing, so the Japanese took karate and transformed it into their version of boxing, ultimately turning it into a striking only art / sport. this is when grappling was removed from karate.
@@bohu9522 Okinowans knew wrestling. Every group of people has some form of grappling, many are very similar. Fir instance, irish collar and elbow wrestling and European "ringen" are both very similar to judo. So no, obviously Okinowans didn't know judo, or Jujitsu for that matter, but they knew how to wrestle. Remember, most of what we associate asian martial arts didn't happen until judo(colored belts, gis, specific curriculum etc). So even without knowing what type of wrestling/grappling okinowans did, we know that they did know how and did so regularly. Talking about japan, Karate as we know it today wasn't formalized until 1922, Judo was invented in 1882, a full 40 years earlier. So yes, when Karate was created, and especially when many katas were formalized, they were designed for a people who not only knew how to wrestle, but who knew judo specifically.
I trained in Kyokushin before and I was taught a lot of sweeps and throws by my teacher. I don't know if it is like this in other dojos but I was lucky to be in one that teaches them.
Kyokushin originally had judo throws and head punches since Mas Oyama himself is a judoka and trained with Masahiko Kimura. He was also focusing on making it the strongest and most complete karate at the time. Modern kyokushin was so watered down, its such a shame.
You got to remember Kyokushin was found in 1964 everything was very raw back then & many students of Mas Oyama had previous karate training, Mas Oyama him self was a student of Shotokan for example & the grappling side of karate was practiced heavily back then, as opposed to today, Now kyokushin is predominately a striking art & they have really refined their striking. oddly enough though it’s the point fighting guys that have kept grappling in karate alive mostly because it’s the highest way to gain points in a match. But now Kudo, & Karate Combat are also aiding in the fight to keep the grappling side of karate. History sure is fascinating.
Kyokushin Baka from my understanding Oyama opened his first dojo in 1953 but it wasn’t quite kyokushin yet he was still refining his technique & keeping what he wanted from his other karate training & discarding what he didn’t like. Around 64, 65 is when kyokushin had a full fledged curriculum that’s when he introduced his Kara style to the world as kyokushin.
@@IronMartialArts Mas Oyama was also a blackbelt in judo, so alot of the throws came from his judo training but now days the style is more focused toward stand up fighting with competition rules which doesn't involve any throws but we still practice them from time to time.
@@IronMartialArts i think it would have gone bad for the thai if this was a vale tudo fight, because i would suppose the karate fighter would try to headbutt and ground and pound him. So i would say i dont really think pure striking effectiveness is a Guarantee of a more effective martial art, differently from what most striking fans would (im one myself)
The second fight isn't from a kyokushin fighters, it's from Tadashi Sawamura. In that time, he wasn't used to fight full contact, but even though, he decided to test himself in MT.
The first one is from the famous Muay Thai / Karate challenge held in Bangkok in 1962 (or 1964 according to some sources), issued by the Thais to Japanese karate schools in which 3 Kyokushinkai fighters were pitted against 3 champion Muay Thai fighters. Karate fighters won 2 of the 3 fights by KO, whereas the 3rd one, shown here, was won by Muay Thai fighter by KO. The second one is Tadashi Sawamura, a famous no / semi - contact fighter losing to a Muay Thai fighter. As someone else commented, Sawamura should not have taken on that challenge as he was not used to full contact fighting (unlike the Kykokushin karateka from the earlier challenge) yet decided to do so, to his own detriment as he was highly vilified in Japan after this loss.
No evidence whatsoever.@@Sunyayana Just sour grapes over losing. They've been saying this for decades since without any evidence. In fact, the truth is that only the two earlier fighters were slated to fight and had trained accordingly; the last one was merely sent as an observer and the Thais insisted on him fighting after they lost the first two. It was quite courageous that he accepted under those conditions but still, Muay Thai lost 2-1 and they've had difficulty accepting that to this day.
@Muay_MMA I'm not sure if there are videos of the other two fights, but all sources I've checked says that the Kyokushin fighters won two of the three matches. Doesn't really matter, it's not like that means Muay Thai is an inferior art or something (it's not).
Fun fact, back in the older days of Muay Thai, fighters were much lighter on their feet and employed as Rob said a kind of western boxing movement. Fights during the "golden era" had fighters employ flashier techniques like wheel kicks and flying elbows more often.
@@mightymeatmonsta No they don't you moron. Muay Thai along with Boxing and kickboxing are single handely the most effective form of striking. The clinching alone in Muay Thai is an art itself and you can't just punch right through it unless you know some other form of grappling or wrestling.
@@RedgraveGilver No, stupid, it isn't even close to traditional wing chun! ALL boxing derivative systems are weak because they have to torque up and go past center to get ANY form of power! I have never seen any boxer knock out another boxer with the jab! They can't! Their jab is weak! In wing chun, even the modified, they have the power to knock anyone out even from close distances of three inches or less! Let's see ANY boxer do that! THEY CAN'T!! Only wing chun can!! This is because of the crappy, elbow out, which dislocates the arm from the shoulder socket, dropping power across the gap much as a resistor does in a circuit!! This is why they have to torque up and go past center to get ANY type of power, which leaves them open for attack because their center is now open! That NEVER happens in wing chun because we ALWAYS protect the center and have our hands out to intercept the attack well before it reaches us. You can't say that about ANY boxing derivative, can you? By having your hands by your head, it is easy to draw you away from the center by just throwing a punch, which we will intercept, then step into the now-open area your hand ONCE WAS and DESTROY YOU EASILY!! TWC also has angled footwork that they use ALL THE TIME, unlike boxers that use mainly linear or straight in movement which keeps you directly in front of your opponent, and makes you vulnerable to the hook. We also ROTATE towards the attack, which not only allows us to see the hook and stop it, but it also pulls us away from the attack, allowing us to make contact, enter in SAFELY, and finish the fight QUICKLY, which no boxing derivative does!! This is one of many reasons why TWC is WAY better than any boxing derivative! It is also a COMPLETE system with grappling, anti-take down defense, locks and throws, arm bars, sweeps, elbows, knees, the BEST stand up system on the planet, along with WEAPONS TRAINING AND MULTIPLE OPPONENT TRAINING, which no boxing derivative does in the sports-oriented ring! We also train REAL SCENARIOS for the streets, so we have an AUTOMATIC and INSTANTANEOUS response to the attack, which no boxing derivative does!!! Still think your crappy boxing and boxing derivatives work against traditional wing chun?
4:00 Date was Showa 41, that's 1966. Fighter was Sawamura Tadashi. He wasn't Kyokushin. He was a Goju 3rd dan. He went on to be a pretty good international kickboxer. This fight was promoted by Osamu Noguchi, the same promoter who did the earlier Kyokushin v Thai fights in 1964.
This was when they were still called Oyama Dojo. The name changed to Kyokushin a couple of months later. They did a month or two building up to this training with gloves on and trying to get a handle of Muay Thai style kicks etc, but they had little guidance. For them just adapting to gloves was a big enough change.
That first fight was actually from a set of 3 Kenji Kurosaki, who was a sub for the third fighter of the group who had to drop out, didn't prepare for the fight (mainly lack of time) and his loss got him to study kickboxing, form the Mejiro Gym and found a Japanese Kickboxing school combining the body punches and kick of Kyokushin with western boxing mainly. This eventually led to Dutch Kickboxing. He was actually the only one to lose of the 3 fighters sent from the Kyokushin school. I wish we could find the other 2 fights the second guy is not a Kyokushin fighter. Tadashi Sawamura was a sport karate (Shotokan watered down) competitor on the highschool and university level who received numerous accolades for his achievements. Osamu Noguchi and Tatsuo Yamada were forming kickboxing in Japan (not to be confused with the Japanese Kickboxing school which I explained earlier) and Sawamura asked Noguchi of his own skill. Noguchi said that sport karate was not adapted to full contact, so Sawamura had this competition to prove to himself it didn't matter. 3 broken ribs and 16 months of healing later and he started training in Jujutsu to have a rematch, but Noguchi showed him kickboxing. He went on to have 241 bouts, 232 wins (228 by knockout), 5 losses, and 2 draws. His KO percentage was higher than Iron Mike (75.86%), Vitali Klitschko (87.23%), and Rocky Marciano (87.76%) at an astonishing 94.60% earning him the title of "The Demon of Kickboxing". This loss on film took place in between 1963-1966 (its widely disputed) with the Mejiro Gym being established in full in 1969. It is very likely (by various sources) that word of the style Kenji Kurosaki was forming got around, and that style of kickboxing Sawamura learned was the very same that was perfected and streamlined in the Mejiro Gym. So technically, this loss led him to learn Kyokushin which made him a beast in the ring.
This is why Japan, America, Europe and pretty much everywhere else banned Thai fighters from using Elbows, clinch, and knees. Nobody fights a Muay Thai at full arsenal.
Probably more true for karate than Thai boxing. In the same way boxing is practised so you can do it in the ring so it is with muay Thai. Karate is so dojo based that the style doesn't get seen in practice often
@@sleepingstate1978 yeah but modern muay thai looks more "standarized" while old muay thai looks more carefree and wild... Neither is better or worse, but its ibteresting to notice the differences... Last time i sparred with muay thai fighters, the stance they used was basically sacred... They didnt break away from what we the west think today is the "traditional form"... now in this videos, the thai guys seem to be more flexible about stances, footwork and techniques... Still clearly muay thai... But doesnt seem as familiar to what modern eyes consider muay thai
The way Kyokushin had evolved is great! I have been training Muay Thai since I was 13 years old. A year ago I switched to Kyokushin. There is a lot of knowledge there at the moment that I can use. Also love the dojo etiquettes and the mental aspect. Some gyms I trained Muay Thai) kickboxing with lacked respect for the sport, each other and the actual gym. In Kyokushin I found this to be different and I like the discipline. Nowadays Kyokushin fighters such as Sam Greco, Francisco Filho and of course the legend Andy Hug paved the way for other fighters of the art. Now Kyokushin can easily compete with Muay Thai. Also I see a lot of information exchange between styles. That is always a good think. I still train Thaiboxing on some occasions and I take what I learned from Kyokushin there and take back what I learned from my friends. And obviously I'm not the only one who does that. So it's a good thing all together
"In 1964, three karateka from the Kyokushin school (Tadashi Nakamura, Akio Fujihira and Kenji Kurosaki, the last being a last-second replacement for an injured Hirofumi Okada) travelled to Thailand in order to answer to a challenge made by the Muay Thai community. Pitted in the Lumpinee stadium against three Thai fighters, the Japanese won soundly two of the matches, with the third being a doctor stoppage over Kurosaki that he would call questionable because he was ahead. (It must be mentioned the karate fighters were also judo black belts and did a few judo throws during their matches ..."
in thai side this fight was trick by japanese guy and kickboxing founder name noguchi he came to ask for low level thai to fight with japanese fighter it a mismatch blackbelt fight with local thai if you checking name of thai fighter you will know that is a begin of why thai people hate Japanese kickboxing strory by kru yodtong senanan founder sityodtong
Correct, but also what's important about that event is that late jon bluming helped the Japanese team in preparations, and he was extraordinary judoka besides kyokushin.
@@emperorjimmu9941 thai fighter after this match they no more future in muaythai and threaten life by angry crowd western people know about katate kickboxing fighter name and story but not know much about muaythai fighter and they background
The date is correct. First the Oyama Dojo (they weren't called Kyokushinkai at the time) contingent went to Thailand and had a 3 vs 3 (Oyama Karate vs muaythai team) fight,... then the promoter Noguchi decided to bring kickboxing to Japan and put on the first kickboxing fight with Sawamura (who was not a Kyokushin/Oyama fighter but a Gojuyryu karate fighter)... I think the Oyama Dojo fighter had more experience in full contact since that's how they they sparred regularly in Oyama's dojo...
Rob Watt well I can tell you that 2 of kyokushin karateka won and the third would have won had the Thai boxer not elbowed him in his face After the karateka tried to help the Thai boxer up
This was the first time any of the Japanese guys had put gloves on and stepped into the ring let alone fight Muay Thai rules. Kurosaki was 35 years old and had been the trainer of these guys. And like most trainers you make sure the fighters train hard, you don't necessarily train hard with them. But when the dates of the match changed a few times two of the fighters couldn't commit anymore so he had to step in. He was courageous but outclassed.
I agree 35 is prime fighting age for some. Unfortunately today, the only way they have these kinds of matches is to remove critical striking techniques from the Thais.
@@Reddragondiaries Because no other style is practicing elbows. So it have... no sense for others to fight with techniques that they never use/saw etc.
The 2nd fight was the first professional kickboxing fight promoted in Japan and had Tadashi Samurai, a Gojuryu (not Kyokushin) stylist fight the Thai. In this first kickboxing fight of Sawamura he wore his karate gi. But after that the same promoter started promoting regular kickboxing fights in Japan and Sawamura became the star of that promotion.
One of my favourite fights ever to watch was that fight against that Muay Thai guy and Rufus the kick-boxer lad. Rufus broke the Thai fighter’s jaw, and even after that happened the Thai fighter beat his legs so badly that Rufus couldn’t even stand anymore. Those legs just smashed him. Such a great, and revolutionary fight.
@@elenchus rufus was usually fighting american kickboxing rules, with no low kick. At that time, they agreed in a match with no elbows, no knees and no clinch wrestling and projection. Of the muay thai rules,only low kicks were allowed.
Sometime prior to the 90's Kyokushin actually allowed take down and throws in their tournaments. Mas Oyama, the founder, also held a 4th dan in Judo. However, if you look at a lot of the old Kyokushin matches, a lot of matches basically becamed timed Judo matches (I think you were only allowed to grapple for about five seconds then the fighters had to be broken up and reset). So throws and take downs were removed from the tournaments and, eventually, most schools removed throws, sweeps, and take downs altogether...unfortunately.
This was the 60s karate has evolved kyokushin was much like other karate styles practiced in Japan. A Lot of sparring habits and techniques used now was not practiced back then. But you have to ask yourself how much Maui Thai influence traditional martial arts.
I think Kyokushin and Muay Thai are both traditional martial arts. Fighting regularly or in a ring doesn't change that. They both are steeped with tradition from Kyokushin's yearly training in the mountains to Muay Thai's ritualistic dance at the beginning of the fights or the banana tree shin conditioning Changing or evolving the art doesn't take away the tradition of the practice.
@@ghostdude45 The "traditional" part means that they don't modify their techniques because the techniques are traditional (i.e. conserved from a certain master), not that they don't have traditions.
@@elenchus then from that understanding, you can't tell me the Muay Thai doesn't have core movements that they've done based on tradition such as the teep and the way they do round kicks (again, based on the banana tree feat). Kyokushin is the same as well. Brazilian Jiujitsu even has traditional techniques too Sure, throwing away and adding techniques keeps the art relevant, but each of the arts in question has core, traditional movements that they keep. Effective or not, by that definition, I still keep my belief. (And I want to add I'm not speaking with malice or mean-spirited or any negative connotations)
@@ghostdude45 "then from that understanding, you can't tell me the Muay Thai doesn't have core movements that they've done based on tradition such as the teep and the way they do round kicks (again, based on the banana tree feat)." The metric isn't a binary question of whether a tradition exists somewhere in a style, therefore the entire style for all people at all times and at all schools is always traditional. I think a lot of times styles are fighting a battle between collapsing into tradition or thriving in evolution depending on the period. One could argue that Kano's judo, a synthesis and refinement of two older jujutsu styles, was radical in many ways. Certainly Kano did not seem to care especially much for teaching each style precisely the way he was taught. But today, the Kodokan has largely become a TMA-centric approach, essentially crystalizing the radical development of judo at the time of Kano's death, willing only to remove a technique every so often for fear of injury. So is judo a TMA or some radically pragmatic style? Well, are we talking about 2020, or 1920? Same style, even largely down to the exact same techniques, yet despite being technically virtually identical, one is traditional and one isn't. "Kyokushin is the same as well. Brazilian Jiujitsu even has traditional techniques too" The question isn't whether or not a technique may also exist in traditional martial arts, it's whether its adoption and use is based on tradition over pragmatism. For instance, at some point we got a lot better at doing triangle chokes. In ye olden times, we all did triangle chokes directly facing the opponent head-on. But some smart guy figured out that if you underhook a leg, not only do you eliminate the possibility of getting slammed, but you greatly increase the power of the choke. Now there were two possible basic outcomes in jiujitsu when this was discovered. In a pure TMA, this new version would be abandoned, because it's not in line with what great grandmaster Helio (or whatever patriarch of jiujitsu you like) taught. But in an another world, where BJJ isn't a TMA, people started tapping out more and more people relative to those using the old way. And because BJJ is a mostly pragmatic approach to fighting, the new way started taking hold. "Sure, throwing away and adding techniques keeps the art relevant, but each of the arts in question has core, traditional movements that they keep. Effective or not, by that definition, I still keep my belief." I guess I would say that TMA-ness is a matter of degree. Some evolution might happen in some areas, while not in others, or for one period but not another. Funakoshi's karate was a radical departure from Okinawan karate, committing the grave sin of altering (and renaming) kata, like heian shodan. But shotokan, post-Funakoshi, has basically crystallized, much the way of Kano's judo. No one dares change heian shodan or question the effectiveness of uchi uke because to do so would be to defy the great master, even though the great master himself defied his preceding great masters. That seems to be the way that many martial arts progress (or don't). They go through long periods of stagnation until you stumble into a Kano or a Funakoshi or Oyama, then get a few decades of modernization, then shut back down to just doing the same thing forever. Some styles just keep optimizing within their given environments, be they boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai or so on, so the consistency between one decade and the next is largely a product of the rules that they're confined to and the maturity of the techniques within those rules, and less so an arbitrary enforcement of tradition. "(And I want to add I'm not speaking with malice or mean-spirited or any negative connotations)" I appreciate that. It's so hard to communicate emotions online. I think the question of "what is a TMA" is extremely difficult and poorly understood. Most people in the combat sports world seem to define TMA simple as an ineffective style. Other people think it's the prevalence of traditions in a style, but as you point out, there are tons of traditions in Muay Thai and BJJ, so that can't fit. The best I've been able to come up with, doing a bit of semantic housekeeping, is that the T in TMA refers to the "why" some techniques are used instead of others. It doesn't mean they're bad (judo is a TMA and is demonstrably quite effective), although it necessarily precludes fast evolutionary refinement. For instance, BJJ has had to undergo constant modification to stay effective at high levels of MMA, but it was able to make those modifications and remains one of the most relevant styles, almost to the point of being a fundamental requirement. But judo, despite having great techniques, was simply not structurally able to cope with the fast changes of the MMA world, and now judo has largely faded into obscurity in the MMA landscape. Basically, it was its TMA-ness, not its technical ability, that prevented it from becoming a foundational skillset of MMA. Under a different guiding philosophy, it might have replaced BJJ as the dominant submission fighting style in MMA thanks to its combination of takedowns and submissions.
@@elenchus Okay, I think I'm beginning to understand what you mean. I actually like your reasoning as opposed to just saying "nah, BJJ is in MMA so its not traditional." Or something to that effect My biggest question then is this: Would you consider arts like/similar to American Kenpo or Choy Li Fut traditional or modern? Both arts intergrate new techniques, forms and ideaologies continuously and practitioners have been known to pressure test themselves, especially in CLF. Yet, by your definition, both arts are mostly considered traditional because they also keep techniques and ideas that were created by the patriarch of the art (Even if the patriarch did a ton of modifying and changing like you mentioned with Kano's judo).
Second guy is Tadashi Sawamura. He was not a Kyokushin fighter. He was a point Karate champ. After his lost against the Thai boxer he became a Kickboxer and got his revenge. His story is quite interesting btw
This combined with the fights between muay thai and lethwei are an excellent example of why the rules and the level of intensity you are used to really do matter almost as much as skill.
Kyokushin before the death of Mas Oyama was going in a very different direction. Oyama was all about progression and today the style is all about being conservative with his legacy. Oyama studied muay thai and learnt from many other styles to still create something that was truly karate. that's why these guys perform better against nak muay even though their abilities to study their opponents must have been greatly inferior in comparison with modern fighters.
To me, the first fight really highlights the importance of clinch and ground fighting. It shows how easy a stand-up fight becomes a clinch, and then the ground.
Almost ALL Karaté originally have alot of take downs. From okinawan wrestling & cross training with Judo a Jujitsu. Cross training between arts has always been common. If you want to learn about karate ask “the karate nerd” (Ien Abernethy) (Patrick MacCarthy) talk to some real experts. Also No, a first degree black belt is not an expert fighter of anything. If you cannot get ahold of anyone I’ll talk to you about the subject.
I think the real driving factor in the effectiveness of certain martial arts, particularly striking arts, is the influence of money. Fighting for purse prizes, and the associated gambling elements, has had a huge impact in my opinion. All the best striking styles like boxing, muay thai, kickboxing, lethwei... they are all arts where the primary focus is fighting for money. That drives out ineffective techniques and fosters innovation, rather than sticking with dogma and tradition. You are seeing the evolution of combat now in MMA, again all because of money
the most effective styles in MMA, as determined by the number of UFC champions, are wrestling and BJJ, neither of which has a significant prize fighting pedigree. Nonetheless, it is a very interesting point. I think you could rephrase it more broadly that, the greater the incentive to win, the more realistic the training will become. That incentive might be national pride, village honor, jousting for the most beautiful maiden, perhaps fighting for survival like a gladiator, but you're probably right, there is probably an element of truth to that.
Andrew K. More money in fights means fighters are more valuable, which prioritizes their health, and that shapes the practice. I would argue that allows for more proficiency, as more hours can be put in & experience accumulated without injury. Also, it incentivized greater innovation & professionalization of the trainers to explore those limits. 9I sometimes wonder if BJJ is as effective as it is because it’s much easier to gain a lot of experience in without fear of injury, as opposed to striking/sparring or even wrestling...) That said, you’re both right that how money actually flows in combat sports shouldn’t be overlooked as that drives the regulations and meta, which is the primary driver of what the sport becomes. As soon as you spec gloves to wear or disallow shoes, you’re automatically creating an artifice- there’s not really such a thing as a “pure” unarmed combat
It's indeed not Kyokushin. You can tell by the style and by his gi even if you don't know that he's Tadashi Swamura, a sports Karate guy (not full contact).
Kyokushin in 1964 and now are very different. Since the kyokushin style full contact tournaments there is less takedowns. But before tournaments started in the late sixties there were a lot of takedowns, sweep, throws.
It was more "street oriented" funny thing is that the Kyokushin that I learned/practiced in Brooklyn NY, had alot of sweeps, take downs, and throws...With the occasional getting clipped in the face. PS: I enjoyed getting your book as a gift to myself many moons ago!
These matches from the 1960s are before Kyokushin developed their own tournament rules of no face punching full contact. Allegedly during that period in Mas Oyama's dojo, where these fighters are from, they sparred in almost no rules/anything goes style sparring with throws, face punches, etc. This was before the Kyokushin rules we are familiar with today first developed... and Mas Oyama studied boxing and incorporated it in his teaching... So many have said the original Oyama Dojo (before it became officially "Kyokushinkai" was more like mma then later in the 70s when they started their own tournaments with the no face punching rules. I believe the first fight is with Kurosaki who then went on to quit karate and started his own kickboxing gym (Mejiro Gym/Kurosaki Dojo) which became one of the major kickboxing pioneering gyms in Japan.
@@dmfaccount1272 You know, it's a damn shame that these people take their money and give them a lesson on how to get their asses kicked! As I have been saying over and over and over again, karate is crap! It is stiff and rigid and extremely flawed. So is muay thai, but they win because they do the same thing wing chun does. They enter in, and the hapless karate guy just doesn't know how to handle it! This is the flaw in the system. Maybe way back in the day, when they actually FOUGHT in hand-to-hand combat, they could handle them, but as time progressed, more and more important information that made the system work was lost! This seems to go for all systems, including modified wing chun!
@@vincentlee7359 I wasn't talking about that, stupid. I was commenting on how crappy karate really is and how useless it is for the streets, just as muay thai is, boxing is, kickboxing, tkd, jkd, savate, and all the others are as well! I'm sorry you are too stupid to up on that!
Wow. Amazing to see the first match live. I just reread a book that described such a match. I believe this entire episode was described in Tadashi Nakamura book “human face of karate”. Nakamura was one of mas Oyama stop students. Thai land issued blanket challenge to all of Japan. No other style stepped up ... but apparently. Oyama went nuts and enlisted his top fighters to go there (they did train some boxing and slightly modified their training regiment to hold up.) in his account however, there were 3 fights. Kyokushin won 2 of the 3 matches. This fighter was more like the coach and considered it was how they justified the loss for what was otherwise considered a disgrace upon his return. Wild stuff. Thank you for the footage. Would be really impressed if those other two matches were recorded! Key take-away? Be open minded and respect all arts, their strengths and contributions. OSU!
The top best three martial arts in the world in my opinion is Muay Thai, Kyokushin Karate and Freestyle Judo I find these arts to be the greatest combination for me that are effective for any deadly fights and simply a fun breeze to learn.
In the '64 fight (the first kickboxing match ever, effectively), I think all three karatekas had also trained fairly extensively in judo, hence a superior takedown capability. I believe one of the kyokushin fighters got sick or injured and had to be replaced by a coach at the last minute, which is the guy that lost. Kyokushin won the other two rounds, although how much of that is due to judo training on top of karate is hard to say. It may have defanged Muay Thai's dreaded clinch game though. My history on this is very fuzzy, but as I recall Osamu Noguchi was the promoter of that '64 fight, and he went on to found the first kickboxing school. He went so far as to important Muay Thai coaches from Thailand, which I'm sure would have been a pretty radical move for a karateka of the day. Not long after he taught the founders of Dutch kickboxing. Edit: I think my memory is wrong on that. I think it was Kenji Kurosaki (the fighter in the video) that founded the gym. I think (??) Noguchi was the promoter of the event and founded the Kickboxing Association.
@@FightCommentary After reading some more comments I think I may have remembered it incorrectly. I think it was Kenji Kurosaki who started the first kickboxing gym and taught the founders of Dutch kickboxing.
Hi Guys, you are doing very good job. I am enjoying very much. Let me translate this date thing. S41.6.21 means Showa era June 21. In English, June 21st, 1966. The second guy we saw was not from Kyokushin Karate but other school. His ring name is Tadashi Sawamura. He became one of the first Professional Kickboxers in Japan right after this match he lost with over 20 bone fractures of his body. He did very well in his new career with over 65 bouts. Those days Japan had FUJIWARA the Kyokushin kickboxer who became the first non-Thai Muay Thai champion in Thailand. Fujiwara's trainer was Kyokushin Karate guy. Take care,
I practiced kyokushin and we did do some takedowns for kumite, basic judo/wrestling style stuff, osoto gar,i uchi mata, ogoshi, nothing you've never seen before
Good stuff! I wonder if there is any footage available from similar Kung Fu vs Muay Thai challenge ties of the '60s and '70s? These fights helped to make MT famous in Japan and West, as Kung Fu practicioners were usually destroyed - few of them survived first round, and wins by Chinese martial artists were very few.
A more accurate and comprehensive account of the Kyokushin (formerly Oyama Karate) vs. Muay Thai history is presented at a clip called "Oyama Karate vs Muay Thai - 3vs3Match."
Kyokushin back in the day was more focused on being a complete fighting style. It has evolved according to the rules of competition. Like other styles they would practice things like elbows, throws and takedows, that's why they exist in the forms. Even Wing Chun has techniques like that. Taekwondo has knees and elbows in their forms also.
I love sharing this: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-aFc9eokPInA.html This was a 1908 boxing match that Jerry and I watched. Check out the American boxers clinching and dirty boxing. These techniques are not longer allowed in modern boxing.
@@RobWatt That was great. It goes to show you the evolution of combat sports and martial arts. Training methods evolved according to rules and trending strategies. And of course, with how society changes and functions, many martial arts start to train with a heavier emphasis on competition, as actual ruleless "real" conflict is not the norm for most every day practitioner. I really appreciate what you guys do with this channel. I my self have been practicing martial arts for over 15 years now. I keep my self actively competing in combat sports(striking) while practicing traditional arts. So thanks for sharing with us. If there's a way to be involved and give a hand, I'd be more than glad to do it.
@@gingercore69 probably! Had read somewhere that karate grappling practice phased out because at the time everyone was doing judo anyway, so it was expected youd get your grappling from judo...
@@gingercore69 Yes. Goju Ryu was his second style of Karate. In addition, Kyokushin started as another style of Goju Ryu originally under the guidance of Mas Oyama but later became its own thing. lol
1st fight: Let's remember that in those days karate black belts where also judo black belts, which was taught in Japanese schools from young age and military, hence the karate guy reverting to judo in close combat. In fact in the 70's in my country to be a karate black belt you had to pass the judo belt to, that's before karate was thought of as something independent.
As a response to your question early on. Old school karate, kyokushin included had a much greater focus on standing grappling and body manipulation, originally almost all techniques involved a combination of grappling and striking in succession. A grab and pull into a punch or elbow a takedown followed by a strike, a side kick to the knee with a throw etc.
@@FightCommentary yeah and more than that unless I'm mistaken he actually held a belt in judo as well. Somebody mentioned this below but back then cross training was very common. Most karateka trained in judo as well. On Okinawa they also have native grappling arts called tegumi which is kind of a mix between mongolian wrestling and sumo which most men practiced at some point.
Many are unaware that Mas Oyama is also a 4th Dan in Judo (He trained alongside Masahiko Kimura). He incorporated some of it in the Kyokushin's "Goshin-jutsu".
There were sweeps and throws in BOTH karate AND Muay Boran, sadly both started to lose it with their sportification. Crowd loves punching and kicking...
I was told that this kind of fiights are the foundation of the kickboxing. Japanase karatekas found Muay Thai and thought "this is great! We need to mix it with karate", so they started japanese old kickboxing
Old school kyokushin karate was much more complete(old karate in general) They did strikes to the face at the time, Mas Oyama discouraged it bc, well it was bare knuckle.
Kyokushin is very compatible with judo, most high level kyokushin karatekas used to practise judo, Sosai Mas Oyama was a 4th dan in judo, the self defence syllabus in kyokushin has a lot of judo in it.
The first fight was from the 1964 Kyokushin Karate vs Muay Thai event where Karate actually won 2-1.There is footage of Akio Fujihira who represented Kyokushin beating a Thai fighter by taking him down several times then knocking him out in round 2.
In most styles of karate, you have to practice every technique (kihon) in both stances equally. Because you're human, you'll develop a dominant side, but karate is highly mobile as a style, and this is also expressed in striking, either stepping through a kick or stepping to punch (oi zuki). In either case, you will end up reversing your stance. There are also tactical considerations, because you can either choose a closed stance to your opponent (orthodox vs. orthodox, for instance) or an open stance (orthodox vs. southpaw) which opens up and shuts down certain kicking opportunities on each side, depending on what you think favors you at that moment.
as an aside, that was a mae geri (front kick), not a teep from the karateka to the face. I'm sure he was aiming for the chin and slipped up. We've seen a few one-hit KOs from mae geri in MMA in recent years. Silva and Machida have pulled it off.
@@FightCommentary yeah, they're super different techniques although they look similar. Mae geri is much less of a shove, much more penetrating. But that's the problem when you go for the chin. The angle of your foot is so high that it's really easy to slide right off or even to fall backwards if you really screw up. When kicking someone in the abs with mae geri, you can get the angle of the ball of your foot just right so that it stabs. Try it on your heavy bag when you get a chance from a RU-vid tutorial and you'll feel the power immediately (it's a super easy kick to learn). But pull back your toes (mega important). You don't want to break your toes on the dense sand near the bottom of the heavy bag.
Hi. I did goju ryu for four years at a very traditional dojo. We did practice checking kicks, it the default response to a low kick is definitely a gedan uke. It is possible this guy is from a different branch of goju... but I was frankly surprised to hear this guy was goju.
Nope. Leg kicks is more common after the one to one and hand to hand combat. Because legs have 3 times more strike force. But it very easy to blocked by the weapons because the big movement. Before kicks is throwing. Because close ranged combat is good for throwing and punches not good for long swords or staffs.
Ernesto Borio That doesnt make any sense. It popularized it but NO ONE, owns a fucking kick. Its the same thing as saying Boxing owns punching or BJJ owns the rear naked choke.
Hey everyone the Thai Boxer in the beginning ( first fight) is one of my teachers. I can clearly remember the story of this fight, as I'm typing my wife is saying "I remember". Peace.
Kyokushin and Karate in general used to practice takedowns a lot back then. Not as elaborate as judo but still enough to take the opponents down to the ground. I used to train in Shorinryu Kyudokan and I'll never forget those tackles, throws and slams that I received in which I landed in nothing but concrete. My sensei used to tell me that many fights end up on the ground and you should know how to bring the fight to the ground if you can't knock them out when they were standing.
The thing most ppl dont understand about traditional Karate in general is that close range fighting. Kyokushin in particular is taught not to retreat and absorb blows this they are not very effective at dodging. On the sport side of things they are not very clenchy.
Kyokushin Kai Karate, as a sport, mostly punch to the body and often do not use gloves, they typically do not allow any head punches or elbows to the head, while kicks to legs body and head are encouraged Many Kyokushin kai and Seido kai kan fighters cross trained in western boxing. This is where early Dutch kickboxing comes from. Sweeps like kazushi waza are allowed, but the takedowns of wrestling and juijitsu are not, although I'm seeing juijitsu style bodyfold takedowns. Similarly, Kyokushin Karate creator Mas Oyama also had a blackbelt in Judo. Awesome video. Thanks for sharing!
A lot of Kyokushin guys also had Kodokan black belts. In Thai culture even visually showing someone the bottoms of your feet is highly disrespectful, much less planting the bottom of your foot ON their face.
Karate is a self-defense art not a ring art. Muay Thai is a full blown proven battle field art that covers all aspects of striking. When combined with judo or Sambo it is well rounded.
Although Kuyokushin sport rules doesn't allow throws, Masoyama , the founder of Kuyokushin, had 7th degree black belt in Judo. Many of the first Karateka's cross trained in Judo.
check out the story of Master Oyama the founder of Kyokushin when he prepared 3 of his best students to fight the Thais. Those were 3 fights. 2 fights ended in favor of Oyama students but the 3rd student lost by a knee to his face from the Muay Thai guy that knocked him out.
3rd student who got lost was Kenji kurosaki who went there as a trained, 1 guy had to drop out and return to japan for his day job, because the thais kept delaying the fights, kurosaki was not knocked out, the fight was stopped by the doctor because he was bleeding from his eyebrows
This fight was our Muay Thai Legend Rawee Dechachai vs Kenji Kurosaki it took place in 1964 The Rules were all Judo throws were allowed head butts and groin shots. Rawee Dechachai was known as the Elbow King during his reign in the late 50s to 60’s.
@@FightCommentary I'm not on I.G but on Facebook bro. Yessss head butts were allowed. The Thai promoters did that so the Japanese side couldn't make excuses. It was a rivalry back in those days.
These matches are why we have japanese kickboxing today. After the matches in the late fifties and early sixties a kyokishin karateka developed a form designed to compete under Muay Thai rules and a boxing promoter in Japan came up with the term kickboxing and began to promote events where karate guys began competing under said rules, eventually being able to compete successfully against Muay Thai fighters with in just a few years. K1 didn't come out until the ninties and the idea was mixed rules kickboxing intended to be a compromise of rules that would be friendly toward karate, kickboxing, and Kung Fu, kickboxing was developed in Japan in the 60s using Muay Thai rules.
i just wanna point out one thing though. the first round in muay thai is generally scored as a draw. the reason why they start slow is because they are sizing each other up. checking the opponents reactions to techniques and feints.
First kyokushin guy is Kurosaki Kenji. Was send by Oyama in Thailand with other 2 fighters that they must fight but not him because was injured but at last He fought and lost other 2 wom ( Fujiwara and Nakamura) Second kyokushin guy was Tadashi Sawamura and he didn’t do kyokushin but gojuryu karate
Jerry, next time, we have to watch that famous Dutch Kickboxer who would go to Thailand to challenge all the Muay Thai people. Raymon Dekkers is the fighter and he beat all the Muay Thai guys to a pulp. His fights are amazing. Remember to let me know when you do a Raymon Dekkers analysis.
he beated many of them, but he didnt beat all. He is a very good muai thai fighter, maybe the best outside of thailand, but as far as to beat them all, he was far away from that
Great video! On your ending question, it seems you were not aware that the 1964 fight was actual part of a 3 fight competition between Kyokushin and Muay Thai, which Kyokushin won 2-1. The clip you've commented on is the only fight they lost. The other two were KO wins for Kyokushin... I find alot of information propagandistic when it comes to Muay Thai in the fight community. Whenever a Muay Thai fighter loses its because judges were corrupt, not real Muay Thai, not Thai nationality etc. Muay Thai is a fantastic style, and like all styles it has pros and cons. But to your question; yes, Kyokushin can very definitely beat Muay Thai but the styles are closely matched such that it comes down to the fighter and not the style imo.
Amazing fight and thanks for uploading... Kyokushin fighters generally have a problem with head shots but leg conditioning and leg kicks are amazing. I think this was the first set of Kyokushin v MT after these series of fights the Kyokushin Organization begun to incorporate the "new style of fighting" which included knees, elbows and the fast clinch. The follow up fights were much more competitive.
For everyone disrespecting karate, I’d like to let you know that the first fight was part of a 3 fight tournament, karate vs Muay Thai, which karate won 2-1. learn you history lol ( coming from someone who does Muay Thai btw).
Kyokushin does not have a big emphasis on takedowns and doesn't allow them in its competitions -- only sweeps (certain kinds, at that). Offshoots of Kyokushin like Ashihara (and in turn, Enshin) permit the use of many Judo throws/sweeps/trips on top of what are essentially standard knockdown karate rules, but I don't think either of those were around yet circa this footage. Same with Daido Juku/Kudo, which essentially mixed Kyokushin (with face punches allowed due to some astronaut-like headgear the competitors wear) with Judo with the result being similar to Combat Sambo and/or "MMA in a gi". The most likely answer here is that this particular karateka had cross-trained and/or competed in Judo and likely held at least a Shodan in that art as well, as that was quite common back in the day. He decided he didn't want to stand and bang with the nak muay and instead leaned heavily on his grappling to present an issue his opponent wasn't used to dealing with, though I can't imagine the judges liked it. Kudos to him for knowing his and his opponent's areas of strength and also executing those techniques without the benefit of a gi.
But what advantage did they have by using judo techniques? It's not that they got any points or were allowed to submit the opponent anyway. So grappling and throwing techniques in a stand up full contact rules match are pretty much useless, I think.
@@DreanPetruza Takedowns are really useful even in standup fighting for a few reasons. One reason is that you actually do get points for takedowns (although I can't say if that was the case in '64) if fights go to the judges. Another is that it's shockingly tiring to get thrown and get back up. It's a very demoralizing experience because it feels like a knockdown. But the main reason takedowns would be useful in this situation is because it allows you, at least in theory (but in this case, in practice) to defang the Muay Thai clinch relatively safely. Instead of hanging out there in the plum taking knees and elbows because you don't know Muay Thai, you have the ability to take them down and disengage. The ref will stand them up and you're back at your preferred medium-to-long range karate zone, at least for a little while.
Didnt expect the first karate guy to be so effective at stuffing the muay thai guy and hitting him with takedowns. You can tell he's afraid of the muay thai guy's striking.
I have seen a Muay Thai fight from 1920. Muay Thai did developed up the 60ies. Some say that there were som Choy Lay Fut fighter who won against Muay Thai in the 60/70ies.
