Lol I love Doom, the Ultimates universe is proof that Dr.Doom was right, " Reed, you're smart and there's no denying that. But if you lived my life, experienced my failures, felt my pain. You'd be Dr. Doom too. Albeit , an inferior one. "
No it's not true at all. Even after the Maker took everything from him he was still Reed. It took years of non stop torture, disfigurment, brain washing and brain SURGERY before Richards called himself Doom. If anything it proved Victor was absolutely dead wrong.
@@Theorphan81 My guy, that legitimately proves Doom right. Doom's entire life has been the universe shitting in his cereal everyday from his childhood until he became an adult.
Rob, my man, you need to reread the book. Tony is not watching the screen. That was Doom Reed attempting to change the past BEFORE talking to Tony. Each page in this book takes place across 4 different time periods. What's ABSOLUTELY brilliant about this book is that you can read it the traditional way, one page at a time, or you can read it CHRONOLOGICALLY if you follow the top panels left to right, then wrap back around to the beginning and read the next row! It's literally the most insane thing I've ever seen in a comic. The third row is specifically Doom trying everything he can to change the past and failing over and over again and you see him hurt his hands which is what Tony was referring to. Doom realizes changing the past is futile, so his last and best hope is recreating the Fantastic Four in the present. Also, it was America Chavez that Tony was referring to at 4:36, who they rescued in Issue #2. For viewers, please don't take this video as a replacement for actually reading the comic. I highly recommend picking up all the Ultimate books because they are really something special. It all begins in Ultimate Invasion 1-4, then Ultimate Universe #1. From there you can read Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimates for the full picture. I also definitely recommend Ultimate Black Panther and Ultimate X-Men, but they are doing their own things right now and aren't as tied in as Spider-Man and Ultimates. Seriously though, Ultimates is incredible.
Ah, I had actually completely missed that that was how it worked out chronologically on the first reading. I was reading digitally via Kindle's guided comic reader mode and while I usually really like the feature, it kind of messed with the flow in this case. I could tell it was bouncing around to different times, but it seemed a bit jumbled.
@LotS-quag This one is worth owning a copy of physically cause it was really satisfying turning back to the beginning of the book to continue the story. But another thing I just realized about the book. It's Issue 4, each page has 4 panels, it's dealing with the 4th dimension time across 4 different time periods, and it's about the Fantastic Four. Absolutely brilliant.
It reminds me of Pax Americana and Promethea #32 in a way that it’s non-linear storytelling. I love stuff like this that uses the medium of comics to its unique advantage. Deniz Camp essentially wrote FOUR comic books that make sense whether you read the rows one at a time or just straight through like a normal comic.
Someone pointed this out to me but the Maker messing with reeds equations is the same thing doctor doom accuses reed of in the main marvel universe that led to his disfigurement
A genuinely horrifying amount of self hatred, the maker pulling a reverse flash on himself. It’s pretty haunting the smile drawn on the maker when Reed says he’s doom.
God, this story is so tragic and angsty, I love it. Revealing how the F4 died, one by flames, one by suicide (or murdered), and the other due to radiation poisoning. Showing how the Maker tortured an innocent version of himself, who never knew that none of his situation was his fault. To be tortured and brainwashed into a new identity, only to later find out with Howard Stark that kid was supposed to be different, that he was supposed to be a part of the F4
Their fate is similar to Ruins, aside from Reed surviving. Definitely not quite as gruesome, but similar. While I think this is a cool twist on things, I *love* "classic" Victor Von Doom's character. We already have The Maker (who's awesome) as the "AU Evil Reed". I'd honestly have preferred they went with a different character as the base for this universe's Doom.
It's also a twisted reflection of their fates, Johnny dies in flames, Ben is dead in a rocky quarry, Sue is literally disintegrating and vanishing, and then Reed is stretched and moulded into being Doom.
I mean, more specifically, as you put with Johnny being killed by flames, but Ben jumping into a ROCK quarry. Sue's father literally saying the radiation is making her "fade away," and with Reed... his metaphorical death is being tortured and his very psyche being pulled and stretched beyond what any normal man could endure. He may have taken the name "Doom," but Reed is finding a way to snap back into the man he once was. The man he SHOULD be.
It looks like Maker changed Reed's numbers, to deliberately kill the FF. Makes sense, given the reputation and power of the FF as an inspiration to he other heroes. Like letting Peter live a normal life, thus ensuring his insane learning capacity doesn't get nurtured, challenged, or used. Or stealing the Moon Landing just because he could.
Maker literally expressed the personification of hating himself, to screw up an alternate of himself and turn him to what is supposed to be his worst enemy in the main marvel universe. Maker is fucking Ruthless, I do wonder what happened to 6160 Victor Von Doom, who he ended up being. Or if he got disposed by the maker Himself. Aside of that can’t wait for the maker get his ass handled to oblivion.
In The Maker's defense, 616 Reed literally told him to his face that he would have unmade The Maker. Jokes aside, it's almost like how the cycle of abuse forms. I have a feeling that 6160 Victor Von Doom is actually part of Ultimate Reed, and that The Maker has basically set up Ultimate Reed as a sleeper agent. I can easily see him being used a a Batman Beyond: Return of The Joker plot device to bring The Maker's consciousness into that Doom. It's messy but I'm having fun with these questions!
@@XXMatt0040XX never happening, Hickman on Ultimate Invasion Established that everything post Secret Wars related to the maker was this: "Maker Survived and he has been inprisoned all this time"
Do you think Victor Von Doom could be this Earth’s sorcerer supreme? If i’m not mistaken, in a panel or something it shows The Maker having killed him somehow. Or by circumstances had him killer.
@@XXMatt0040XXi mean it makes sense Reed said that because The Maker lost touch with his own humanity as a coping mechanism. Its honestly tragic because i remember the cover art of reed richards and the maker beside heroes and villians during secret wars. He is Reeds ultimate villian in my opinion succumbing to despair and hiding behind science. Its if Reed chose to leave his family up to as another expirament. Even The Maker didnt seem to even disagree with 616 Reed as well. The Maker knows hes the ultimate failed expirament of trying to be a better person while he smiles really hes just depressed.
I like how this transcends the name Doctor Doom, into a title. A title that anyone whose experienced great trauma and pain, whose then decided to dedicate their existence to achieving whatever form of power necessary to make right their lives, eliminating their enemies, and conquering existence itself so that no one will ever hurt them again.
DOOM, the artist, also thought of his moniker much in the same way. Mentions this in quite a few songs. His study of Dr.Dooms character was impeccable. R.I.P. to the King
I don't know.. in my youth he always felt like a main villain for the Fantastic Four.. at least I thought he was a key player but have noticed not so much lately
@@Dreadpoolz3977the comment right above yours explains what I mean. Most people think fantastic Four villain or secret wars. My local comic shop guy hadn’t even heard of ‘Books of Doom’! Most readers don’t even remember tales to astonish. Triumph and torment is pretty well known but still.
DAMN. The fact that the maker’s doing this to himself(albeit an alternate version of myself) makes you lowkey question how much self hatred he has. He’s a real bastard😭
Thats not self hatred and you're a moron with a low grasp of how alternative selves work. They arent you, you are your experiences. Mindless apes only see people as icons as opposed to individuals
Well in most other universes, Reed always got the family he truly wanted but The Maker lost pretty much everything (his universe included) over a series of misfortunes. He despises most reeds because he sees himself as the one whom achieved the most out of all of them( but I'm pretty sure deep down he has some resentment towards himself for his misfortunes. That's why he became The Maker to begin with)
I like the idea, but in some cases ppl come out the womb crazy, or evil and some are born the other way. But I agree generally ppl are a product of environment
Seems like Maker still held some resentment over Ultimate FF and 616 Reed, and took it out on their 6160 counterparts. Johnny burned his face, so Maker incinerated him Ben was his best friend, but went against Maker and was in a relationship with Sue, so he had him killed and covered it as a suicide Maker loved Sue, but she tried to kill him multiple times, so he had her die a slow painful death And he hates Reed, so he morphed 6160 Reed into this reality's Doom
It sounds to me like the Maker was trying to make a Doom so he can take the name Reed. Victor might not even exist in this world since Reed has no knowledge of him.
It’s sick and twisted. He hated being the villain and projected all that evil onto his innocent counterpart just so he can essentially be “Reed Richard’s”
@@XXMatt0040XX No, because this Doom has nothing to do with the original one. Literally nothing, if not the name, that however has a different origin! 😀
@@XXMatt0040XX No. It was the torture and so on. The Reed Richards of earth 6160 seems to have almost zero knowledge of anyone named “Doom” or “Damme”. It makes it seem that either this is a world where Victor died young or was simply never existed. I will go with the ladder since that would explain the torture Maker put his alternate counterpart through. This universe seems to be one where Dr. Doom never originally existed which makes what Maker did more messed up. Without Victor, the Fantastic Four would’ve been a rising and almost unstoppable team, Thor would’ve a kind and worthy King of Asgard, The Avengers would’ve been a amazing team to see. Instead we had one man’s ego completely reshape a world that he has no connection to into his own twisted image. To fit in with his image of recreating the original ultimate universe he tortured his counterpart into filling the role of Dr. Doom.
Howard Stark isn’t dead. He’s locked in the dome with The Maker and Kang/Tony. I get it, details details. But, the details matter to the overall story.
@@emanuelepolloni4002 Kang is Tony, who idolizes his father. He isn’t and hasn’t tried to kill Howard. In fact, he told all of his “future Avengers” he was off limits. So, until we see the dome open, and Howard dead, he is still alive. Just like the Maker and Kang
@@chrisrusso4512 oh this already has explaination unless there is new story i missed. one if granddad and the other grand son. there was an entire and Sue really shined in it. Reed was super slow to pick up.
@@JemieBridges that’s three Franklin Richards. Franklin Richards, alleged grandson of Doom, steals time travel and becomes Kang, who is inspired after meeting Doom. The “other” franklin Richards, alleged father of Reed Richards, just happens to ALSO be a Master Of Time. They’re ALL Masters Of Time. They take turns fighting, helping, and becoming each other, over and over. Marvels makes the point in this story
The Maker and Kang the conquer have so much in common. It's poetically sad. Both driven mad by a self destructive purpose. And they both connected by one tyrannical feeling. And that feeling is DOOM.
It's like the maker is trying to punish and himself torture himself in a way they're both Reed Richards. One was going to be destined to be just like the 616 Reed Richards for the most part and he's the original ultimate Reed Richards who lost it all and he wants to make another Reed Richards feel the same pain he feels.
Thisbnew Ultimate Universe ROCKS. Hickman had, once again, crafted such a good story. Hickman's Ultimate Spider-Man is just so good and Deniz Camp has been killing it with the Ultimates books. I haven't been this invested in a comic series in a while. I usually don't read every issue of a series, but I am with this.
Part of the genius of this issue is reading it in two ways. The first time with the panels laying out in puzzle pieces and putting them together. The second time, from left to right across the whole issue and getting the story in timeline order. Just a brilliant execution by the whole creative team.
When I read this issue of the latest events of the Ultimate Avengers I was so sad for Dr Doom I mean what he goes through because of the evil version of Rick Richards AKA The Maker has done to him and to the rest of the Fantastic Four of this universe is so tragic.
I like this new ultimate universe a lot, and this version of Doom might be one of the best thing about it alongside Spider-Man, I love his tragic backstory
I would love to see Victor's reaction to this Doom and knowing it's Reed tortured by Reed into becoming Doom. On one had it's Reed being tortured, On the other hand it's Reed making another version of himself into Doom. Victor would be disgusted to see a version of Reed carrying the moniker of Doom especially if he was created by another version of Reed.
I don't know what to think about this story. I think they will use this story to base the RDJ Doom movie. It's not Victor von Doom is Tony Stark that had one very bad day.
Shows how far gone the Maker is as well. He doesn't even try to win his other self's loyalty, or win him as a protégé. He doesn't even simply get him killed to remove the risk. No, he goes all out and tortures him into a pale imitation of his old rival, to prove that he's better...
4:39 I don’t think he meant Captain America but America Chavez who they rescued a while back. I kinda wondered why you skipped to this issue and didn’t look at issues 2 & 3?
Marvel said, ultimate #4 will going to explain how rdj become Dr doom... Then, that means The Maker is going to make his live action appearance & going to make Rdj's iron man to Dr Doom😍🤩 (Most probably similar like this... like only tony from the whole avengers team survives in avenger 1 or infinity war or endgame final battle (because most probably The maker is going to change many things, which going to leads all avengers members & pepper, happy, spiderman, etc die in front of tony) & then The maker arrives & takes Rdj's tony with him & start torturing & start making him Dr Doom)🤩 Even in this also, they literally showed, that this Dr doom isn't a villen and in the same place, not the hero, that he's in alternate earth... Mcu needs to make the Reed Reacher from Fan4stic (2015) to "the maker" (coz Fan4stic's reed story almost same like The maker's from 1610) & it will going to become way cooler than introducing another earth🔥
What are you smoking about? The MCU and the Marvel Ultimate Universe or the comics are not the same continuity? Away where is your sources to say that the MCU Robert Downey Jr's doctor Doom Is the same one As The comic book one
@@nickypool415 First of all brother... r u asking me or saying me, That Mcu & Comics r in same continuity? If u saying me, Then let me say, it's not... Mcu & Marvel Comics right now r in totally different continuity & following totally different events & doing totally different stuffs which r completely different (eg:- there is two america chaves rn, one is in mcu's earth 616 & one is in this Ultimate earth's... which is impossible coz she is only one in whole multiverse)... nd at least till the secret wars, it will be like this... after secret wars, Most probably, Kevin can reset comic's main earth 616 (like they did in 2015's secret war comic) & going to make mcu's earth 616 & comic's earth 616, the same earth... ofcoz, Am not going to say, comic rn isn't canon in mcu's multiverse... it is canon properly, but didn't following properly means it's in huge mess rn... & second... U didn't even read the comment properly & starts saying that am I high or what? I literally never said in the comment, that this doom & rdj's doom r same... never ever said... & neither marvel or any sources even said this... Marvel, the writer of this Ultimate series (mainly means he mainly said it properly means the writer of this Ultimate series & this Ultimate #4 comic... just google it, & u will get) & all the sources literally said it properly that this Ultimate #4 comic will going to show that how mcu is going to show that Rdj is going to become Dr doom, means Russo brother & marvel is going to base & draw the main inspiration for the story of Rdj's dr doom mostly from this comic only... instead of Reed Reacher, it will be Rdj & events will be change & going to base on mcu's events... udk about this, isn't the fault of mine but almost every hard-core marvel fans knows about it... the writer & marvel literally said about this, back in August's beginning... & that's y more ppl, was waiting for this comic to get release with alot of hype & excitement🔥
The question I have, is why? Why does the Maker NEED Reed to be Doom, with no Fantastic Four to be against? Is it just because he wants him to suffer? There's gotta be a reason, since The Maker doesnt seem like the type to just do stuff. Theres a plan behind it, even if it's far down the line.
He wanted to prove a point to something said in prelude to ultimate invasiom. The Maker asked 616 Reed if he would erase him Reed Richards said yes bexause hes everything that hes everything Reed fears about himself. And The Maker unable to cope with this and self hatred wanted to make a reed richards even worse then him.
Not a true origin. His so called origin is because before the creation of the new Ultimate Universe,The Maker asked 616 Reed if he will try to kill him(the maker) if they meet again, and as smart as Reed is, he said yes, he will always try to destroy the Maker. So the maker destroyed Reeds new Ultimate universe origin.
I don't think Tony knows that Doom is Reed and also, everything was on the screen for Reed to see. The parts with Tony speaking are different cut-ins relating to when Tony first came in to check on him. Everything you're seeing on the screen and Doom describing everything are to himself and what he was up to before Tony came in. Tony is saying "sorry" not because he understands what's going on in Doom's head but rather because of the explanation Doom just gave to him. He basically said "I'm going through some things" and Tony responded with "I'm sorry to hear that but it's no excuse." But also, the moment when you explained that Tony apologized, that was Doom saying sorry for being absent. I believe they differentiate the moments by way of Doom having his hood on or off. On when he's solo and off when he's speaking. Typed this then reread the issue. I'm absolutely correct. Tony came to check on him, he said "im going through some feelings" and that's what Tony was sorry about but that was at the beginning of the issue. Any further talk between them was about "Project 4", the mice, and the Immortus Engine. T
It is still part of the makers plan. He most likely foreseen this by looking through the immortus engine. It's unclear if this is what he wants. Why not get rid of characters completely? Why engineer a Doom? If the maker wanted victory he would have had it by looking at the answer sheet and checking his work.
I feel like Doom is gonna go back in time and hit the fantastic 4 with the cosmic rays, I can see him not listening and using the immortis engine anyway and bring the fantastic 4 to the present day to fight the maker alongside everyone.
I only loved it because you explained it so well. If one thing was missing, I mean one jolt of plot misinterpreted. Then I wouldn't even bother. Thanks Robert @comics explained
6:10 Now I'm wondering if Ultimate Doom's got something to do with the Cosmic Control Rod... Or anything with the real Negative Zone. He could be like 616 Doom during the event when he used the Nullifier, able to see visions of other realities. Just spitting out some thoughts. (Note: I haven't finished the video)
@@75skyloftmexican I just did, I think he's going to create a cosmic cube or have something to do with the Infinity Stones. "I'd rebuild the world stone by stone." I wonder what happened to the Victor Von Doom of this universe
The FF could go on to become villains if they were suddenly granted powers instead of getting them during a mission into space, true. But then again, in one alternate universe (Earth-1228), Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Flo Steinberg, and Sol Brodsky are exposed to cosmic rays by a secretive group calling themselves "True Believers" (Stan's nickname for Marvel fans in the real world). They become Mister Fantastic, The Thing, Invisible Woman, and Human Torch while continuing to write their world's fictional FF comics about Reed, Ben, Sue, and Johnny. Despite being comic book creators who just randomly got powers one day, they did choose to become heroes.
Reed Richards worst enemy is another Reed Richards. One person that Reed can almost always beat is Doom. Which is why The Maker (Reed) turned 6160 Reed into Doom. A way of controlling a huge threat, while turning this threat into an easily beatable enemy.
It's crazy how the three who died mirrored who they were in 616. Johnny died by flames. Ben died on orange rocks. Susan died to rad poisoning, but her father said 'she faded away'. Which is pretty much what invisibility is.
Doom said “You’ve lost nothing! One day you might but Lord knows I pray that’ll never happen.”👏🏾 😮💨 Sheeesh. I’m loving the ultimates universe so much! Those mice were a treat to see.
I think doom seeks to go back in time not JUST to give them their powers, but because those powers or whatever factor leading up to them are what allowed them to survive. Considering they know that this world is messed up and that the fantastic 4 survive in plenty of other universes, he’s most likely narrowed it down to that.
i was expecting rob to comment on the resson why, or at least one of the reasons, the maker goes to this length of abuse and torture on this version of reed richards. this is a guess of mine, but i believe the clue is in one panel of ultimate invasion that appears right in the beginning of the video. when the maker asks reed richards 616 if he had a second chance of erasing the maker from existence, as he had when he recreated the marvel multiverse, wether he would take it this time. reed said he would and the maker replied that he would remember that. i believe he held a grudge. now, the maker already hates reed 616, for a number of reasons. probably the first being that reed's life is good. he married susan, has kids with her, has friends and is famous and respected. maker's life was horrible since his childhood (i don't know if reed 616 had a rough childhood, but i'd wager he didn't). when the maker was still reed richards and became a hero, it seemed as if his life would get better, and it did for a while, until everything fell apart around him and his sanity started crumbling. after he turned against everyone and was brutally defeated, he finally shed his identity as reed richards, and his sanity, to become the maker. he views reed 616 as his nemesis, but probably any other version of reed whose life is not miserable is deserving of his contempt. heck, he may also have a lot of self-hatred which he projects onto other reeds. so, i think this is why he tortured reed 6160 so much. he held a grudge for something reed 616, who he already hated, said briefly a long time ago (from maker's perspective, because of all his time dilation). grudge is what defines him, even more than his intellect. he went insane on how much grudge he holds. even with the hundreds or thousands of years he has lived, and all the perspective he had when he existed simultaneously in all universes (i think this plot was quietly droped), he holds a hateful grudge against the old ultimate universe's susan, ben and johnny, because of things that happened contrary to his liking, and that he thinks should have happened but didn't. he probably feels the same for susans, bens and johnnys from other universes too, but the one he hates the most is reed, including himself in his old identity. the maker is even more tragic than reed 6160, because his torment is, with the exception of his childhood and some of the hardships in his hero life, of his own making (no pun intended). but reed 6160 is close to the maker in that he holds a grudge. not for so long (by a really far margin), and not so tragically (because he was objectively wronged and tortured by the maker), but it's possible he is slowly going insane on this grudge. the maker wanted to corrupt a reed into a doom-caricature, but maybe he made another maker, forever disgusted with the reality of how things are and forever struggling to shape said reality into something better which ultimately (another unintended pun) comes against him. fuck, maybe we are all makers in some sense. that is tragedy, i guess
In the Marvel, Ultimates 2024 trailer on Marvels channel there is a scene where Cap and Doom rescuses what looks like the Human torch. It makes me think the Reeds group may be alive and their presumed deaths is how they were getting their powers but The Maker led Doom to believe they died. Almost like how flash got hurt recreating his powers in Flashpoint paradox.
I think The Maker is torturing this Reed because 616 Reed had everything that he lost. When The Maker made it to 616 he saw how this version of himself was still a hero and was married to Sussan and had kids. Since 6160 is just an alternative 616, it's like he just wanted to take away everything this Reed had just like how he lost everything.
