As a Scandinavian tarper, I recommend a tent for anyone looking to get into camping 100%. It covers everything you need with 0 requirements. It's like an IKEA product. Additionally, if you're not the creative type nor have tarp knowledge, you'll exploit barley 10% of the possibilities a tarp offers. It's like origami - you'll have to take the time to fold the napkin into a beautiful work of art with ease. The only time I won't bring a tarp is when it's snow season. Then I'll only bring my hardy military sleeping bag and nothing else. Throw pine branches on the ground to get me off the snow, and I'm ready to wake up in a white cloud. There's also nothing quite like looking up at the full milky way of stars or the aura borealis with zero filters except your icy breath.
I think small shaped tarps are limiting and don't provide particularly good protection. If you want to give tarp camping another try, get a 7x9 or 10x10 flat tarp and practice different setups. A single flat tarp can be set up in so many different ways depending on conditions: airy and open, wind proof, rain proof, etc. Learning to pitch them well takes a little while, but I find a 10x10 tarp to be less hassle to pitch than my Duplex. The nice thing is that once you know how to pitch a flat tarp, you know how to pitch any flat tarp.
I've enjoyed the hell out of being creative with my flat tarp. It's done me well in wind, rain and snow. To each their own. Your points are right on... have an uncle who I'm sure wouldn't want to consider all the things I have to consider. On a nice Summer night we can all sit outside though and watch the stars. Bring your mosquito head-net. Cheers.
My rebuttal for 3 out of your 4 concerns would be to simply get a larger tarp, with a large enough tarp a bivy becomes redundant in terms of rain protection and if insects are your concern a simple mosquito head net has done me well for many years. no bivy means that the chore that is set up becomes much simpler, you have greater room to move around etc, and finally with a larger tarp (thus taller ridge) means getting in and out is easier. for the final concern personally I use a plus sized ground sheet (basically a double) giving me room to set items out of the mud etc and because the tarp is larger they are also kept dry. Now of course I'm not saying this is a perfect setup by any means but I think it might be something to try for anyone looking to shed some weight. The real trick is finding a good ultralight tarp that isn't tiny (to this end I have no real advice to give). I would say the drawbacks of my setup would be 1) setting up camp though easier than with a bivy is still more involved than with most tents (though not immensely so). 2) if mosquitos are thick enough to warrant wearing the head net this can be a minor annoyance. 3) if you are afraid of crawling insects getting into your quilt/sleeping bag this set up is probably not for you. But if I'm being honest this almost never happens and even if it were to the insects in question are almost always harmless and even if you find yourself in that rare scenario where a not so harmless critter decides to visit you a welt is about the worst thing that can happen. frankly speaking people's fear of this is irrational in my honest opinion. 4) you have less privacy than you do with a tent. 5) since you are not fully enclosed it might prove colder than with a tent due to wind chill, however if you set up perpendicularly to the wind direction this is minimized or better yet set it up in a diamond configuration with only the front face open to the leeward side or even better still configure your tarp to provide a front door to effectively turn your tarp into a tent. Or I guess you could just get a slightly warmer quilt/sleeping bag. pro's 1) it weighs less (considerably so if you find the right products) 2) it costs less (again much less if you do it right) 3) you get much nicer views 4) greater versatility in that you can set the tarp up in any configuration your imagination permits, and what's more you can set up just about anywhere. 5) you can help out your fellow hikers by giving them a place out of the rain (other than their tents obv). and believe me you can fit quite a group of people under a tarp if everyone is motivated enough. you might also say it could help you meet people etc. 5) you feel more connected to your surroundings. 6) you look awesome and everybody is jealous of your talent and intrepidation. or maybe that's just fantasy Idk. if you want to know specifically what items I use you should note that I am first and foremost a budget hiker, not an ultralighter. I have to make things work. anyway I bought a used kelty noah 12' tarp for 35 dollars and I altered and cut it down to 10.5 x 10.5 (I know i've been talking big tarps but 12 feet is a little excessive and 9 is a little small). I splurged and I got the large polycro ground cloth from garage grown gear and the 2.5mm glowire from lawson equipment to replace the big cordage that comes with the tarp. i also replaced the stakes with some DAC ones which I came across at a garage sale for like 3 bucks total. the mosquito net was something that was given to me for free. my sleeping bag is the teton sports trailhead which i got on sale for about 30 and the pad is a thermarest z lite which i also got during the same sale for 25. So that brings my entire sleep/shelter set up to about 120 bucks and the final weight isn't all that bad tbh though I don't have an exact figure, it may weigh more than a dyneema tent and down quilt set up does but the difference is not enough to persuade me to spend 1,000 dollars.
I really appreciate this video. I also have a duplex and was thinking about switching to a tarp Bivy setup to save a couple oz. this video changed my mind. Very insightful thanks!
You’re welcome. On the PCT I had a couple hikers that slept under tarps tell me that I did not give it enough time. I understand that, and I would probably become more comfortable with it over time, but I was just not willing to pass that hurdle while out on the trail. I really did not think I would ever be as comfortable as I am in my duplex. I have no regrets sticking with my duplex.
The problem is you didn't buy a tarp, you bought a skinny rain fly without the rest of the tent! Get a square flat tarp and your views will probably change.
Depends what you're doing. For playing around in the woods, a square tarp is great fun. For thru-hiking, it's a lot of faff at the end of the day, and the great majority chose a shaped tarp. Less flexibility, but everything you really need and faster to pitch.
@@tullochgorum6323 So a question for you...do you find having the poles in the center of each end to be limiting with a shaped tarp? I feel like I would always knock them over when the ground was even the slightest bit slanted.
@@NavsterHikes Not an issue for me, or for any tarper I know of. I've deliberately designed my tarp so the pole at the foot is between me and the fabric. That way the foot of my bag doesn't get wet from the condensation if I slide down the slope. I've also found ways to keep my sleep mat in place on slopes. There are hikers like Lint who have logged many hundreds of days in the Patrol and like it very much. I think you just need to work a bit more on your pitching technique - you do need to create a bit of tension to hold everything in place.
It's hard to beat a Zpacks Duplex and one cannot assume to go big steps from there in terms of weight. Every problem with tarping you mention would easily be fixed by a bigger tarp and different setup. And there's plenty of bug tents or bug bivys to fix unter a tarp making it effectively a double wall tent. Setup can also be streamlined by preparation and practice. So it might not be the best choice for you, but it still is a very valid way to go.
Definitely agree. Nothing at all wrong with the tarp/bivy setup in general. I likely just didn't give it enough time. If I could afford to keep both, I probably would have and worked it out on shorter trips. Maybe one day I'll try it out again. Thanks.
Actually it's really easy to beat the Duplex. Instead go with a Gossamer Gear Duo. Instead of getting consistently bad customer service you get Amazing customer service. On the PCT it took one strong wind storm to put about 40 small holes and tears in my duplex. Similar storms on the CDT with my Gossamer Gear tent, and then a cross country Ireland Thru and the tent looks as good as the first time I set it up. It's got about 3500 miles on it and I wouldn't hesitate to take it on another 2500+ mile Thru.
I never use a bivy. I just have a 10x10 tarp over me a 7x3 ground cloth under me, and an 1/8 inch x 24"x36" foam pad for ground insulation. I wear a ball cap with a bug net over my face, and I am good. Sleep quilt as well.
I have a OR Helium Bivy (bought on sale for $120) for my short, 3-4 days section hikes at just over 1 lb, for which I also try to carry other UL gear. Yes, there is no space inside except at the head for a few items on the side. I also have a Equinox 9.9 oz poncho/tarp (w/ extension) 58 inches x 104 inches for which I paid $66. If I stake out the OR when outside of an AT shelter, I can also use my hiking poles to create a vestibule in front of the entry/head. So for about $200 and less than 2 lbs ( also less than 1 kg) including stakes and lines, I have a waterproof solution for when I hike and when I sleep. Yes no space, but there is a fast setup time just for the bivy which can easily be setup in the rain if you are wearing the poncho and for which you can also set up the tarp part while still wearing the poncho (although this requires more skill) but you will be able to leave the head of the bivy open just with the mesh since now you have a vestibule up front and you will not get a lot of condensation (except the feet). The tarp/poncho setup also works well with my OR bug bivy (1 lb, $70) on (expected) drier hikes. SETUP TIME: is 1) Fastest if you are in a shelter just for Bivy, 2) Fastest if you are on the ground 3) Average if it is raining or expected rain and you want to do vestibule setup 4) Longer if it is raining and it is windy as hell and you need to guy out the tarp/poncho ROOM: There is no room unless you setup the vestibule. But this is ok for a few days when you are carrying less. But man, it is a pain to turn totally from one side to the other as you are doing as if you were the meat on a shish kebab skewer. I am a side sleeper and depending on the thickness of the mattress, I may push the sleeping bag material into the top of the bivy's pertex fabric (no bueno) ENTRY & EXIT: Better than your MLD setup to get out but it is still a pain as you must crawl out forward out of the wide head and slide back in feet first. GEAR EXPLOSION: For a few days you don't need this as much however if you setup the vestibule you will have the space. But the couple of things that are also important is where this shines 1) WEIGHT/BACKPACK SPACE/COST - See above, 2 lbs for shelter and rain-gear / $200 TOTAL 2) SETUP SPACE - This thing is barely wider at the head than a regular sleeping bag/mattress combo therefore it fits in well in a shelter, giving you some additional wind/draft/temperature/rodent protection. It also takes very little space on the ground meaning that you will be able to setup in spaces others will not.
Ha! I think all of the “when this...” and “when that...” are the perfect reasons I’ve learned that I’m a UL, single-walled tent kind of guy. It’s works quickly and nicely every time in practically every condition.
Lots of food for thought here. After watching so many videos and reading blog posts and such yours is the one that gives me pause for good reasoning and concerns. Thank you for this vid. Stuck. Haha!
I’m still very glad I’m in a tent. I’m looking to go a bit smaller than the Duplex, but I’ve yet to rationalize going to a tarp. Only more experience might change that!
Increasing size of course increases weight, but a decent sized flat tarp and an inner like the MSR mesh house or Sea to Summit Escapist I think would change your review. The review felt a lot like being concerned about the loss of space going from a 2 person tent to a 1 person bivy which is a huge compromise. I love that we can use our tarp without an inner, and can set up under the tarp to cook supper before needing to set up the inner to sleep in. The very first night we used our tarp was at the end of an all day drizzle, and the room to work with wet gear and make dinner under shelter converted me. But there is no perfect setup, otherwise we wouldn't have piles of surplus gear in our basements.
I have a Patrol tarp knock off I bought at for $30 since I wasn't sure I would like it. I also bought a knock Bivy for it $20 which is very small and tight. My conclusions? The more I use the more I like it. The reasons? 1. Its actually very fast to set up (much faster than a tent) after I got more experience with it. I will tie the Bivy inside but half the time I won't sleep in it (only if it gets cold and/or windy - since it adds another layer). At the same time its is even faster to pack it up. 2. It has a super small footprint. I can always find a spot to set it up quickly and without worries about not finding a spot as it gets dark. With a tent, I'm way more picky and can't easily find spots on sloppey terrain. 3. Off course, as you mentioned its light and takes no space in the pack. 4. It actually has a lot of room underneath the tarp for my stuff. Off course, it took me a little time to get used to openness of it all and fear of animals theoretically coming close to me (this is actually the most difficult part of tarping for me). 5. After playing around with it, I found how to set it up in a few configurations (higher up, tying the sides to branches and high rocks, etc.) giving me more flexibility. 5. The minimalism of it all appeals to me since I feel more free and light. Having said that, it's not for all trips and all locations. I will only use it for short trips of up 4-5 days and in seasons with dry conditions and in terrain that has little bug pressure. I find it's perfect for it alpine areas above the tree line and in deserts locations. I have used the small Bivy when needed (cold wind nights) and it's actually also OK once you get used to the idea that the Bivy is only sleep in. Crawling in and out is a small hassle but its not terrible if you set up the tarp height normally. I also find it more useful to use in hiking trips when I'll really be hiking all day and have only a short camp time to get to sleep. I won't be needing tent time then and because it takes so little time to set up I'll appreciate that even more after a super intensive hiking day. It's definitely not for trips with a lot of cold rain that I want to hang around in the tent to avoid the elements. In short, every shelter has it's time and place. When my tarp wears out, I may get the MLD to see the differences.
Good points, and I think the biggest thing here is knowing what you like. Some of the stake and pole issues you mentioned, I have never experienced with my tarp and I can't imagine having something as big as the Duplex. Sounds like neither of those was set up correctly but I could be wrong. The benefits to me of tarping are that 1 - I'm closer to nature, 2 - that I'm not limited by the walls of a tent, 3 - speed of setup (I'm usually under my tarp in less than a minute). That said, in looking at the tarp you picked, it seems like a finicky setup. My favourite tarp is from Hammock Gear and works as well on the ground with a bivy as it does with my hammock. It's basically a pup tent on the ground and it gives me huge space inside for one person, and if I prop up one side in fair weather, it's like a palace. But tarping isn't for everyone altho I don't think a single night under one would give a person enough of an idea that they don't like it.
One thing I think I've learned for myself too is that when I'm doing a long distance trail and hike day after day, by the time I get to camp I'm just ready to pitch tent and have my home up and ready. So with the duplex (or similar), while I have fewer options, I also have fewer options. Know what I mean? It's a routine with practically no decisions. Something that's nice for me at the end of the hiking day.
@@NavsterHikes Yeah, I think it's just personal preference, but again, I feel it takes more than a single night to figure this out. I have bought and sold many tents before I found the one I like. Same with hammocks, and same with tarps. I think for just set and forget, a tent can be easy (but I've never heard anyone say the duplex is an easy setup) and my old Kelty went up in about two minutes, but if speed is the game, I can have a flat tarp up in less than a minute without rushing. I use the same setup (plow point) more than 95% of the time, so yes, the routine is for sure a part of it. Same as a tenter, I look for a spot that's flat and then I tend to use one type of set up and I only go to another option when I can't find what I'm looking for. I've been in a tent and not found a spot big enough for the tent, but I've yet to have trouble finding a spot to tarp. I think ecology comes into play a lot. I live in the PNW and if I was in the desert, a tarp would be a pain but here, I go to tarp or hammock.
currently in between the two and going to test out some tarp backpacking.. you've brought light to a few different things I'm going to pay closer attention to, good info, thank you!
I went from Lightheart gear Solong 6 (silnylon) to a Hyperlite DCF 8x10 flat and the Sea to Summit escapist inner bug tent. Saved 10 ounces AND have the versatility of a flat tarp. While I can still "hunker down" for poor weather...Ithe Solong 6 is my go to shelter still for late Fall through early Spring... Each must hike there own hike. See you on the trail!
Good breakdown of considerations. As shared below and elsewhere, I understand a flat tarp (both square and rectangle) can be set-up in many different tent-like and lean-to forms, with or without a floor, with or without a separate drop cloth. Costs: from $10.00 to $130./150.00, or so. Separate drop cloth, optional: $10.-$20.00, more or less. Weight: depends on materials, can be very light.
Thanks Steven. One thing I think I'm finding too is that sometimes having options for pitch, floor, doors, etc... is something that I DON'T want at the end of a long hiking day. Kinda like some hikers and their different meals. Food is just fuel and they eat the same routine every day just to get it done. Although I do like to change up my food, I think I might be leaning toward consistency with my shelter. Just get to camp and be done with it. One less decision on trail. : )
Lightweight shelters are always a question of choosing the right tradeoffs for the terrain, the weather, and your personal preferences. So I'm not saying you're wrong to prefer the Duplex. But you really haven't given the tarp/inner combination a fair try. Some benefits of a shaped tarp that you didn't mention: 1) You have a modular system you can adapt to conditions. Warm and no bugs? Just take some polycro or a space blanket as an ultralight groundsheet. Takes literally 5 seconds to deploy. Issues with bugs or cold? You can rig up many different kinds of protection. If you feel the MLD bug bivy is too small, find something bigger. For example use a small bathtup groundsheet, but a larger bug net so you can reach your stuff. Only rig the net when needed. Or use something that functions as a full-sized inner. The options are open-ended - it's down to your imagination. With many setups you can leave the inner attached to the outer so they pitch together when it's dry. But when it's wet you can strike them separately and protect the groundsheet from the damp outer. Again - more flexibility. 2) With most tarps, you have much more choice of pitching. For example, high and airy in the heat, or low and limpet-like in a windstorm. And as you say, I have the option of cowboy camping in my inner if the weather is stable - out in nature but protected from bugs, mini-bears and dew. My tarp is lighter than a Duplex, but could withstand much stronger winds meaning I can take it to high and exposed pitches. The Duplex is pretty marginal for places like Scotland and Scandinavia. I can whip up my tarp in a couple of minutes for shelter or shade when I'm resting. In extremis, on really difficult terrain I can use it as a flat tarp to rig shelter between, say, a couple of rocks. 3) With the right rig, you have the option to cook or pee on bare ground inside the shelter. This is great in storms. I could go on, but I think you get the point. A shaped tarp with modular inner is lighter and more flexibility than a Duplex. And it can have a smaller footprint for difficult alpine or wooded terrain. But it does require more thought and more skill, so only you can decide whether it's worth the investment to master the art.
Everything is a compromise. But when it comes down to points for points, the only thing a tarp has over a tent, is setup in rain. Packing a tarp is a little quicker than packing a tent, but setup is way more hassle and youll *never* achieve comparable shelter, with a tarp. I can setup my tent, in 90 sec, literally blindfolded in high wind.
@@springbloom5940 What you're saying is true for a flat tarp, but shaped tarps are a quick pitch and can give excellent coverage. And when you pair them with a full inner, they are functionally pretty much the same as a 2-piece tent. So there's a continuum from a flat tarp to a shaped tarp to a single skin tent like the Duplex to a double skin like the Akto. And the Akto can be pitched without the inner... There's a lot of overlap between the different types of shelters. My argument is that a good shaped flat tarp is the most flexible foundation for any shelter system, while something like the Duplex will only work in a much narrower range of conditions. If those are the conditions you happen to camp in, it's a great solution. If you need to adapt to high winds, tight pitches, driving snow and dust etc, then it's not the ideal choice. Horses for courses.
@@tullochgorum6323 So, you're talking about a less useful tent, not a tarp. No, I get it, but referring to anything but a flat sheet, as a 'tarp' is semantic; its really a floorless tent. And I agree that the Duplex is not a particularly good tent. As I said, it's all a compromise. a rigid framed tent, however, will always outperform any kind of tarp, in any application. That said, I often carry just my tent body, with a tarp. I can pack that system into the cargo pockets on my pants and I can pack the poles in any number of places. A tarp is a good backup, but as a primary shelter, is severely lacking and can get you into trouble. I sometimes carry a 5x7 ultralight tarp, just as a rain shade to setup my tent. But, I never carry just a tarp, unless its a short outing the weather conditions are stable.
I'm not surprised you changed back. The Tarp and "Bivvy" you selected, and the way you set them up are almost the same thing as a twin wall tent if you ask me. Not really the "out in nature" experience by the look of it. Tarps can be great and a simpler bivy sack ( like a bag for your sleeping bag, not the one you had) are great to put you "out" in nature but I'd set them up differently to how yours were. But I'm guessing Bugs meant you had to select the bivy you did. I would agree 100% though about selecting a tent like the Duplex for the kind of hiking you are doing. The ease and added comfort after a long tiring day(s) hiking. Its always going to be nicer.
Maybe one day I'll give other setups a chance on more "controlled" hikes. I remember when I first used my Duplex I was a bit unsure about not having tent poles versus stakes only. It took a little bit of time, but I now see that a freestanding tent is not all it's cracked up to be.
Thanks, this has really helped me a lot. I was on the fence with the weight issues and considering going to the tarp/bivy set-up. Although I'm really glad i came across your video, because i really didn't consider the 'processes' of entering and exiting, pack coverage etc.. well , everything you mentioned in your video actually. Maybe there are other options out there for me but i think i'll stick with my cheap lanshan2 for now, but at 40 oz i will keep searching. Unfortunately Finland has a lot of bugs in Summer, so just a tarp set up is a no-go for me, i definitely need a mesh net bivy underneath. Thank you for sharing your experience, i don't think i could deal with the issues you mentioned either. Simon
Hello @An Englishman in Finland. I'm glad the video helped. You might also consider some of the items that other viewers mentioned here in the comments. It sounds like there are less restrictive and more flexible tarps out there that might be better for first-time users. If you're able to borrow one and give it a test run on a short hike, that might be the best scenario. I'm even itching to test out another setup. Who knows what I'll learn.
@@NavsterHikes I appreciated it buddy, i'm always open to knew ideas to lighten the load and make the experience much better. Thanks for the reply and great vid
@@AnEnglishmaninFinland1 I got a Hilleberg Bivanorak, and was really skeptical about bugs. A headnet really does the trick, without adding much weight or taking up space in the backpack. And it is something special about wake up to seeing nature all around, instead of tent walls. I think most people use a tarp with this shelter if it rains, but i remember a Sweedish woman said she just set it up under a tree to deal with most of the rain. I have not tried this myself yet, but im planning to try it ASAP :P I hear people talk about condensation being an issue with this shelter though. I have not tried it enough to confirm anything other than that it can be an issue on really hot summer nights, when using my quilt which is suitable for maybe down to 3 degrees C in a tent - and i guess even below freezing in the Bivanorak, lol! Looking forward to experimenting more to find out how to use this shelter properly :P
I think 1 attempt with a tarp isn’t really a fair test. Tarp setups take practice and skill. Tarps imo are a lot more versatile you can set them up in loads of different ways depending on what you need / prefer and for what situation you are in. A frames aren’t a great setup imo (although super popular pitch). Check out a Dutch guy called papa hiker on youtube. He shows you loads of setups with a tarp including fully enclosed tents with a 3 x 3 tarp! 😃 at the end of all that though, it’s all about what works for you. As long as you’re having a good time, that’s the main thing.
Yeah that’s completely understandable. Testing things locally is one thing but going on a major hike with something that new is a different ball game. Maybe have a look at getting a cheap tarp like the dd super light solo (260g) that’s what I use. Costs about £40 so nice and cheap for an experiment and then you can play around with all the different setups. The reason I prefer this over a tent is because it’s so versatile. if it rains I can use it, but if not I can just use the bivvy bag and look at the sky etc. It’s also great for stealth camping which you need in the uk as there are very few places you can camp legally and it’s really fun learning the different ways to pitch it. 🙂 great video though
Very nice points to take note! I"ve been flerting with bivies lately and want to give it a go (not UL gear, though...). This video has helped me a lot. Thanks for sharing!
@@NavsterHikes I do love tents, but still want to try a bivy. But not UL sleeping systems. It seems that part of the problems you've been through came from the fact that tou were using UL, very small and specialized gear. I may bê wrong but that's what it looked like. Anyway, thanks for your help! Cheers!
For the bivy and tarp issues the problems were likely UL related. But I’m on the other side….not willing to not go UL. ; ) Definitely no issues on my UL tent though.
Interesting discussion as I was just looking into tarps after learning about Ray Jardine. I do love the Duplex though. Thanks for sharing your experience.
I also read his book prior to getting my tarp. I was probably impatient with it. If I had the time and $ to test it out properly, my review would likely be very different.
I want to be that tarp and bivy guy. But I just cant. The Duplex is such a great shelter. 19.5oz for a heck of a lot of space and protection. Great video.
I just went from a tent to a tarp. I use a 8x10 flat tarp. what I like is the amount of floor space I've gained over my 2 man tent. the bivy is only need part of the year further reducing weight when you don't need it. better ventilation with the tarp equals less condensation. with my tarp, when set in an A frame configuration using trekking poles, you cock the front pole to one side so it's not in your way getting in or out. using it only one time you might have sold it short. tarps do take a little bit of practice. but to each their own. I also prefer the "outdoor connection" I get with a tarp.
You ought to have used the Hyperlite Mountain tarp ( it is lighter, larger and better quality than the one you tried) and there is also a lot lighter bug bivys out there. I can set up my HLM tarp a lot faster than I can set up my Zpacks Duplex. So, respectfully that makes no sense at all! You can also use trees to set up the tarp in addition to trekking poles and you're not setting up the tarp properly if the pole hits you and gets knocked over (this was user error on your part). The 8 x10 HLM tarp has more livable space than a Zpacks Duplex tent too by the way.
I have thought about a tarp and novey, but as you said the ease of moving around, the no room for gear and self, I decided I should Stay with a tent. I have considered the pleximid but not as much room and I like the two door opening on the duplex with the extra room! Thanks for the comparison. Great video and informative!
One other thought (other than weight) that I have on this that I learned from my AT hiking partner, Wiley. Even if every piece of gear was weightless, minimizing the quantity of items really seems to improve my experience. Fewer items to setup, fewer items to keep track of, fewer items to clean, etc... And this applies to all gear, not just shelter. It's not something people talk about much, but minimizing quantity of "things" really simplifies and improves the enjoyment for me.
You’re welcome. Hope it helps. I had only a little bit of experience with it, tried to use it as designed, and just didn’t get that solid feeling with it.
I'm just experimenting with tarps and thinking about making my own bivy these days. I don't know where I'm going to end up. - There is one thing I realized when using the tarp (2.4m x 2.8m) in a very rocky region in the Swiss Alps this summer: Since my tarps is rectangular, I just had to find a place to lie down and put my pad on the ground. The tarp then just had to be placed over it, but I had all the freedom where to put it above my pad and a lot of freedom where to put the stakes. A tent takes more space on the ground and there isn't a lot of flexibility in where to put in the stakes. Your tarp - so my impression - didn't provide much flexibility and therefore didn't offer a lot of advantages over a tent apart from the lighter weight. On the other hand, a tarp usually takes more time and experience to put up, as stated by you. So, I still love my Tarptent Contrail, and I'm thinking of sewing a tent with which I can keep my hiking poles the size I use them for hiking. So, the setup time with this tent should be very fast compared to the tent I own at the moment. - I really wonder where I will end up with.
Thanks for the input. Prior to buying the tarp I definitely didn't realize the limitations that this style created for me. Maybe I was subconsciously not wanting too many options since I was used to a tent. : ) And you're right, all you really need is a spot the size of your sleeping pad. With the zpacks duplex I've learned that it's flexible enough that it will really go up ALMOST anywhere my sleeping pad fits. Many nights I've had trees or large rocks (or even other tents) inside of my vestibule areas. So I definitely see how a good rectangular tarp would make that even more flexible. So if you're making you're own tent/tarp, what material do you use? I've sewed a handful of things before, so making a rectangular tarp seems like it would be an inexpensive way to go that turns out to be the exact dimensions that you want.
Thanks for coming back to my post. I think pitching a rectangular or square tarp takes quite some time to learn and be comfortable with. I have heard many great things about the Duplex. However, my first tent won't resemble that one, but rather the Tarptent ProTrail, but a double-wall tent for hiking in autumn and spring or in windy conditions. I'd like to build it the way that my front pole can stay at a length of 130cm, which is what I need for hiking. The rear pole will be shorter to save some weight, though. I'd like to have a width of 130cm from the head end to the foot end, so the tent can provide space for two large and wide pads - or for me and my pack explosion. I have already bought Xenon 1.1 from DutchWare, which is a nice siliconised polyester fabric. I have previously used it to make a hex tarp for my hammock. If this tent is going to work well, I can still try and make a version of DCF (Cuben Fiber). Or, maybe, I'll try and copy a Duplex. The problem is: I usually have too many projects, so it will probably take some time to accomplish all these things... P.S. DutchWare sells an even lighter version of Xenon and a nice silnylon as well. Or have a look at Ripstop by the Roll.
Thanks for this video. I been considering going to a tarp setup. I have the lanshan ul2 which has a removable tarp and I love it except for the weight. But after this video I doubt I'll do a bivy. Sounds like a pain
grate vid. Not what i was expecting but glad I watched it all the way through. I agree but I think I have the most fun with my tarp when I'm camping in the same place for multiple days and don't have to keep tearing down and moving it. I like a big 10x10 tarp for versatility, but for backpacking I think im going to get a 3F UL Pyramid Tent Single Person or a Lanshan 1 pro Tent. it's like the Zpacks one but double-walled so you can still pitch it without the fly when it's nice. I'm with you, tarp and bivi is too much work for not enough benefit for just an overnight.
Hi.really appreciated your thoughts. I just purchased the altaplex and I'm a small female. It's supposed to cater to taller people but I love it. I have excerises/ stretches that I like to do sticking my legs up and arms out. Also I hear maybe less condensation. I did a thru hike for 4months in the original hexamid with net floor and an extra bathtub floor only a few inches high. I was forever soaking my head and feet from condensation and I'm only 5'5" and some change. Also it wasn't 360 protection so it was a privacy issue like the tarp. That bothered me in busy campgrounds. I also appreciate the higher door of the altaplex for getting in and out! It feels palatial. I'm also making a dcf tent with a net floor (I actually liked - no dirt ever got in nor did it have any damage), 8x10 scout style. It can also be set up pyramid style that works for someone my size. The 58 inch wide net floor can also be set up using the bottom only as a bug bivy if that makes sense. It will come in at about 14oz. So it can be very roomy and airy even pitched with corners to the ground or tailored down pyramid or one end lower for weather. It is certainly more fiddly to pitch than my shiney spankin new Altaplex! 😊 .
Thanks Jane. I’ve gone from wanting a tarp to wanting a Pleximid to wanting an altaplex. I think it would fit me better being 5’11”. Even though I like the big space of the duplex, I could probably deal with a little less space. Ha! It would be good discipline for me. Will help improve my kit in the long run. It’s all an evolution! I hope your self made works out well.
@@NavsterHikes Thanks! Once we're readily on trails again I hope to meander for a long while so collecting gear and readying for now and day hikes. I was just going to go with my creation but when zpacks had their sale this spring I pulled the trigger and very glad I did! I was having a simular thought process about tarps but remembering how well the net floor worked for me it started wheels turning. I also remember a few people in bivys on my first thru hike and the complaint being it was like a coffin. Another guy did the entire pct in one and said he was 'not loving life' and went for the duplex for his next thru. He was very tall but I don't think altaplex was available for him at that time. It's interesting zpacks has brought back that OG hexamid that got them going but the hexamid plus was also a sweet spot.
A shaped tarp is really more of a floorless tent. It can only be set up one way. A rectangular tarp can be set up in many ways to provide the needed protection for the conditions. It takes a while to develop those skills. Often on the pct a bivy is adequate and the tarp can stay in the pack. Rectangular tarps provide amazing flexibility if you take the time to develop skills.
MLD Patrol is the worst tarp to get to try out tarp/ Bivy. I did PCT Washington with Zpacks Altaplex tarp with Zpacks Groundsheet and Borah Bivy. Altaplex tarp is very spacious and like the Duplex has side doors. The Groundsheet bathtub is where I used keep most of my gear. It was a little painful getting in and out of the Bivy...but you get used to it. Altaplex is big enough for you to change lying on top of the Bivy. The weight though of my setup was still 20 oz or so..pretty close to Duplex. I did cowboy camp with just Bivy/Groundsheet probably 3 times out of 22 nights. I guess that is the flexibility you get with Bivy. But what I realized was that once I go to sleep, I didn't wake up to see the stars etc. So to me there was no difference between being in a tent and my Bivy setup. So, now I went back to Zpacks Solplex which is 14.5 oz and is spacious for me. I used the Duplex and still have it.
This is just odd to me. What you call a bivvy is a bugnet tent, and your tarp is a single wall tent without a floor. If you try a bivvy bag, which is a water resistant cover for your bag, and a tarp, a square or rectangular top cover, you'll find there's very little setup.
Well, just like the spelling, a bivy comes in many different forms. Some are more waterproof than others. Some have more mesh that others. This is a bivy in a breathable, water resistant form. And the tarp is simply a tarp with a beak. Still a tarp, but not as flexible for setup. I can see how it could be considered a hybrid.
I like tarps because of how much space you can get for relatively little weight (and the scaling is really good for larger groups) I don't use a bivy though, so the setup is simpler. Though the benefits are greatly reduced if you can afford the duplex. I also cannot use down so getting a little bit of water on my sleeping bag isn't that big of a deal
@Navster Hikes I am always hesitant going pole less. Due to the hard groud I camp on. I am usually at higher elevation where it is hard and rocky. Hehe I think everyone deals with the gear explosion Great video, tents all the way.
I just spray my pants, shirt, and top of my hat with Permethrin. You could also spray the outside of your sleeping bag or quilt with it. Mosquitos fly under the tarp and you can see them immediately turn around and fly right back out.
That’s a good idea. I’ve definitely noticed how mosquitoes stay from away from it. I treated my socks, shorts, shirts, and hat for the Appalachian Trail. It worked very well. I think I’ve kind of gotten into a routine now regarding my sleep system and shelter. I can put up my duplex with my eyes closed probably. the fewer tasks the better. Simplicity is key for me now.
Still use a ten year old Golite Hex 3 shelter which by modern standards its very heavy at 38 ozs . but also by modern standards its huge nearly 66" high with 58.5 sq feet of ground space. uses a single trekking pole with a supplied 12" alloy extension or centre tree hanging loop still love it after all these years but in 2009 when i bought it at $200 and no fly just a bath tub ground sheet it was pricey . No longer made but for my hikes its a great shelter and at 66 years old i like my creature comforts never did like crawling about to get in my tents. Try using a two man waxed cotton tent with wooden poles if you think this is heavy.
@Lee B. Interesting, I felt crawling into/out of the tarp setup was much worse than getting in/out of my duplex. Ahhh....the ol' two man shelter with wooden poles. I remember those well. 11 yrs in Army Guard.
My MSR Hubba Hubba is super convertible. Use as a tent, with rain fly. Or, just use the rain fly as a tarp, no tent. Or, use the ground tarp and fly for wetter situations. Or, use just the ground tarp, as a ground tarp or as a rain shield. So, one purchase can do so many different conditions. I have used this equipment in deserts, winter in Appalachia and Rockies and Sierra's, eastern woods, lots of mosquitoes, Canadian wilderness, Everglades, jungles of Central and South America. If you are a real camper/hiker. Then you know that MSR is the best equipment on earth. Period.
I was able to try out the Packs Pleximid this past weekend on a multiday hike. It's very nice. Lighter than the Duplex of course and packs away very well. I'd say there's good room for a hiker + stuff, but I'm a little concerned with the length of it. I felt like I touched the ends more so than when in the Duplex. I'm 5'11".
In no way do I want to wish bad luck on myself, but I sometimes wonder when my Duplex is gonna be on its last leg so I have an excuse to get the Plexamid!
hello dear awesome video , i am thinking a setup with my big agnes flycreek 1 inner tent(for bigger mesh area)//firstly i am thinking mld bug bivy 1 but i chanced my mind because of mesh area// and poncho tarp(xl size enought for all the inner tent ) i will save weight from tent poles and rain gear what do you think about this setup ? i will use on lycian way thats a hot mediterrian coastline trail greetings from turkey 😀
Hello @Akif Karaoğlu. You gave me a new trail to research. The Lycian Way looks great! Would be a nice treat to see all of the history and be along the Mediterranean the entire time. Your setup sounds pretty good to me. I'm sure your regional weather provides some great camping.
You talk about getting all "googly eyed" when seeing gear that is lighter than what you use... I think i just got that when reading these comments about using a cap with a bugnet instead of a bivvy... The Hexamid tarp with doors would save me 462g (!!!) compared to my spruce green Duplex 😳 That tarp does seem really nice, but the duplex definitely have its advantages too, and i would think it is ok to trade a LITTLE weight for comfort... Although... I think tarps have their own charm, and they seem like a pretty valid option in the bug-free seasons... If i know myself right, i will probably end up buying the hexamid some day... Doesnt hurt that it also have a much smaller packsize, so i can save even more weight if i buy a smaller backpack, LOL! How many grams could it be total??? 🤔 This stuff is turning into an obsession 😅
@@NavsterHikes Got myself a Hilleberg Bivanorak (bivy/raingear hybrid, created for the Sweedish airforce), thinking it was some cool "ultra minimalist" piece of gear, for situations where i would sacrifice comfort for weight and packsize. Turns out i *really* enjoy camping with this, as im seeing nature start where the sleeping pad ends (unless i use a tarp), and im able to quickly set up camp right on a somewhat narrow trail; *without tent pegs or poles* . It also adds substantial warmth to the quilt/sleeping bag, so just a sleeping bag liner can be enough on the warmer summer nights. A headnet took care of the swarm of mosqitos and other bugs around my sleeping pad, without being too annoying. Being able to move around without going out of the shelter (quilt is recommended) should not be underestimated when you need to go pee in the night/early morning (much quicker and easier than a tent)..! It is also pretty awesome that it will handle pretty much any weather :P The only real "cons" i have found so far is that it is pretty noisy, and it is susceptible to condensation under warm conditions (due to sweating). It got uncomfortably warm on my last trip, and the quilt seemed a bit damp when i woke up. I did not notice any such issues when i tried it last winter though, so i *believe* this can be omitted by using a quilt/sleeping bag with a suitable temperature rating... Some people complain about condensation when used as a raingear, but the *extra roomy* size makes it pump/circulate a lot more air than regular raingear, so i have not had any issues with this (yet). It is not as good as a rain poncho, but as long as im not pushing myself so much i get sweaty, it is enough to just fully open the sleeves. If i need more ventilation, i can also open the zipper/velcro a little at the top, and/or create some baffles in the velcro for more evenly distributed ventilation along the zipper.
In campeggio o quando sono in giro col gatto uso la ⛺🙂....quando sono da solo e non ci sono insetti per qualche notte uso il poncho tarp e un materassino in Eva da 4mm oppure l'amaca col tarp a volte metto l'amaca dotata di zanzariera a terra e tarp sopra 🙂... ovviamente per una lunga percorrenza uso la tenda 😀anzi ora la compro nuova dopo 20 anni di Ferrino MTB 02 🤔mi sa che la compro uguale 😀
That might be true. One question for you, with this type of tarp with the poles in the center of each end, how do you keep from knocking down the poles if/when you slide on a slope? That seems like it would be a constant issue for me.
@@NavsterHikes One suggestion, if you can find the right location, just hang the tarp instead of using poles. Not possible everywhere, but an excellent approach in forests.
@@johnwhite4991 Thanks so much. I think that would help tremendously! it would obviously keep me from knocking over the poles and it would allow me to elevate it a little more freely. I felt my roof was way too low to the ground. Appreciate it.
Hey @J H! Good question. I've mentioned before that I think there are probably only 2 cons with the Duplex. 1 - the footprint. Sometimes you might wish that it's a bit smaller when you have to pitch in tight spaces, but hey, it is a 2 person tent. So this comes with the territory. 2 - the condensation. So I don't have experience with other single-walled tents, but my thoughts on the condensation are that it's "not bad" except in situations with pretty large temp differences (which means it's like 30 degrees or below outside and you're nice and very warm and creating a lot of heat inside). Specifically on the Colorado Trail, the humidity was relatively low and the temps in Jul did not get too low (except for a few nights), so the condensation was completely reasonable imo. In my experience you will have some dampness when nights are below 50. But above that temp I rarely get condensation. You can also regulate with an open door or two or more. I also added a loop-toggle half-way up two opposing doors so I could roll them up halfway. This still provides cover for rain but gives more openness for a slight breeze. I also have a camp towel inside that I use to wipe down any condensation before I pack up my gear. Ultimately, I think the best way to think about it is this: With a traditional tent, you have an extra component to setup (the fly), you likely have more weight to carry, and you likely need to manage not having the fly touch the inner wall of the tent during rain, or, guess what, you get wet spots. With this single-walled tent you get very easy setup, less weight, and absolutely zero chance of getting rained on. So the periodic condensation levels are a very small annoyance imo.
I liked your videos so much I just subscribed to your channel and gave you a like. You answered all the inquiries I had about a combination of a tarp and a bivy. I’m interested in that duplex tent you’re talking about. Because I am blind, I cannot see the videos but only listen to them. Would you please describe the tent to me. As far as I can tail, it sounds like a tarp with a floating floor and mesh doors in each side, the front and back. Can you set this up between two trees hanging from a rich line? Could you please describe it with plenty of details to me? It would be very helpful for me to understand what it looks like. Thank you so much for sharing this video. God bless you.
Hello @Erick Ortiz. Thanks for the questions about the Duplex. It is not something that you are able to hang as a tarp. Your description of it is very close to reality, but the main difference is that the tub of the tent is permanently connected to the tarp of the tent via the mesh. The mesh does create the doors on each side as you describe, but it also runs around the complete perimeter of the tent between the tub and the tarp. This keeps the bugs out but still allows for airflow. Have you looked at the tarptent.com website? They have similar tents and tarps to the Duplex and some of them are designed with both a tub, mesh, and tarp but do not permanently connect all three. So it provides options for use. That might work better or you. Hope this helps. Feel free to ask additional questions. www.tarptent.com/product/stratospire-li/
I wanted to backpack, and money was the reason I went to a tarp and bug net. I have an 8'x10' tarp, a 48" wide A-frame shape bug tent, stakes, tie out lines. Everything is non-name brand. Total cost: $162CAD. Total weight, 1020grams/2lbs4oz. Bug free palace for one, space for two, and waterproof hangout space for four. Tell me again how your $800+ tent is superior?
@BirdyJ0. For me it is superior because it is simple, very effective, lightweight, and packs well. For me, setup options are not worth it. Kind of like when I get home from a long day at work, I’m ready to just eat dinner versus think about what I need to make or what I need to order. When I get to camp, I’m ready to set up my shelter and be done with it. Simplicity is key. If I were camping, I might feel differently, but after a long day of hiking, the duplex fits my needs well.
When I'm tired, I tie one end of my tarp as high up a tree as I can reach. Stake out the opposite corner, to the ground then affix the other two corners down. Can be done within 2 minutes. The difference in our setups is price point. My use of "superior" was tounge in cheek, but I see that it offended your tents ego. They are not better than the other. But one is certainly attainable by the general population, while the other only a few people are able to access.
@BirdyJ0. Offended? Absolutely not. I simply explained why the duplex is superior for me. The cost is worth it. But the cost has nothing to do with its superiority.
Appears you may have missed-out on the advantages of a tarp? For me the goal is the least gear between me and God. If forecast is no rain and no dew, sleep on the bivy with no tarp. If slight chance of sprinkles in trees and no wind, hang the tarp, but don't unfurl it. Hang it so high, you can walk under it without ducking. As the weather gets worse, hang the tarp lower and lower. Bivy's rarely require staking. I just don't like the gear getting in the way unless it's necessary. Don't like the confinement of a tent. Nor its fixed dimensions. 80% an un-staked bivy is enough = two-minute setup. And takedown. (more...) "Beaked" tarps are ridiculous. One wants to use trees whenever possible. Never had a tree pull out of the ground (unlike stakes). Use a flat-tarp (square, hex or asym). Hang it as high as wind allows. Have a party and invite friends if it rains? Often staked the rear two guy-lines and tied the front two high (in two additional trees). This makes a "porch" suitable for four to six people watching the fire in a light rain. Really don't like stakes or guy-lines. Forever tripping on both. Flat tarp is only four stakes (only two with an Asym). Snakeskin your flat-tarp and it's up in another two-minutes. Plus, snakeskin'd doesn't have to be unfurled, but it's ready for rapid deployment if an unexpected shower blows by? btw, while weight is lower with tarp, weight is hardly a consideration. Advantage(s) of a tarp are functional. Lighter weight is a side benefit.
Thanks so much for the thorough comments. I did later realize that maybe a beaked tarp was limiting. And my time with it was even more limiting. When I have the flexibility in camping shorter times I might give it another go with a flat tarp. Options are good. I’m missing so many stars out here on my current Colorado Trail hike!
Beaked tarps are ridiculous? It all depends where you are. Camping in the woods in settled weather is relatively easy. Camping in Scotland or Scandinavia where it might blow up to 60mph overnight is a different issue. Most people here favour tarps that offer the option of serious protection if things turn nasty.
I just use an army gortex bivy. No strings and no fuss. I can sleep anywhere I want. This in combination with a waterproof backpack bag makes me a very comfortable man. Every once in a while I will bring a tent. I did this in the Badlands of SD because my wife made me in fear of rolling on a rattlesnake! XD
It's amazing how not seeing/hearing creates a sense of ease even though reality doesn't change. I put in my earplugs and all of a sudden there's no wildlife anywhere around me! Ha!
I'm thinking about getting the MLD Cricket with the inner net tent, I hate bivys. Did you notice any less condensation the couple of times you used the Patrol Tarp compared to the Duplex?
While I only have condensation periodically with the Duplex, it was definitely much less with the tarp. Practically none. Even though I had the tarp staked down pretty low, there’s still a good bit of circulation that helps as compared to Duplex.
That setup definitely sounds better. But at that point I would probably just go with the new Plexamid. Seems like it's essentially the same components, just "put together". But then of course I lose the flexibility.
I used that setup through the desert on the PCT. Fairly flexible in that you could use the bathtub alone to cowboy camp. I rigged the nano bug so the corner loops where you secure the floor to the hexamid come through the bug mesh allowing the bug net to securely overlap on the outside of the floor. Also rigged the bug net bag to the roof so it could be stowed and didn’t have to be used all the time. It worked well. But I did switch to a big Agnes tigerwall at KM for the rest of the trail.
ran into a guy on the AT near Hot Springs, NC. he was finishing up his thru hike, southbound. he used the zpacks pocket tarp on his thru hike. juat used a polycryo ground sheet. only 2 nights he said he got some splash back in heavy rain.
Yep, probably so. But still, even if it went more smoothly after experience, I definitely prefer fewer steps, fewer decisions, and more space of a tent.
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I had no issues with them, but for me found they weren’t really needed. So do you still use poles on the Duplex? Were you able to get zpacks to replace?
@@NavsterHikes they replaced them. I still have them but I use my trekking poles. So much faster. The pole broke on the AT, thank God I had trekking poles. Replacement took awhile, I had to send the broken pole back to them.
Probably not "doing it wrong" with this tarp. Other than an option for how the beak can be set, it's really designed for a one-way setup. There will always be a pole at the center of both ends. So in this scenario, it's either slide into the pole or slide out from underneath the tarp. Options.
Part of the "user error" is picking a tarp where the poles "must be here!!!!" as a consumer. I have duplex. I have a tarp set up. I bought a simple, but crazy light, 3m x 3m tarp to go with the bug bivy. When I use this tarp my poles are no closer to me than with the tent, often further because I set up the tarp the way I want. That's the point of a tarp. I orient the shelter to gravity with both. If you want I can do a rather simple video rebuttal since I will be on the AT in January with a tarp and trekking pole set up. And since it handled an AT Ice storm in November, pretty sure it will work in 2 weeks. Just to prove the point further I can share the video and the photos of last year on the same location, in the same month, with the Zpacks like tent. I will admit the tent sent up, if you need the bug net, is easier. Much easier. But if you hit a poll it's on the user, period.
@@NavsterHikes also, from looking at your photos I think I saw the issue. The poll at the "foot" of the tarp can, and really should be, set up outside of the tarp, using the tie out.
Thanks @John Schmalbach. More experience and playing with it or having a tarp that's more flexible in setup might of helped. I actually did have the foot pole on the outside of the tarp as it's designed. And no closer than with a tent. I think the difference is in how the sleeper slides. I prefer to slide to my feet (if I have to). In my Duplex, the poles are on the sides, so no issue there. Maybe in this particular tarp I need to learn to slide to my side! lol
@@NavsterHikes i hate that sliding!!! tyvek as a ground sheet rather than polycryo makes a big difference. Gossamer Gear 1/8" foam pad under your inflatable pad will stop the sliding whether in a tent or under a tarp.
He's gunna have something else to whinge about when he starts roasting at 6:00am. Tents are for extreme weather and boy scouts...but what would he know!
Tarps are even bigger a scam than quilts. Who in Hell would want them?? More complicated to set up, insanely uncomfortable, and barely lighter than an UL tent. That research for the lightest gears has got to stop.
Not really a scam, the military use them for shelter all the time, like anything it's a tool you have to learn to use correctly, hell even if you're a tent camper a tarp can help keep the UV and worst of the weather off of the tent
A tarp bivy setup is way better than a single wall tent. More protection, no condensation, way more space and ventilation. I think you need to do more research on tarps and bivys and take the time to use it correctly. This video only shows ignorance as to how to use a tarp, bivy system.
