Underappreciated Historical Weapons: WAR DARTS / Fletched Javelins 

Shadiversity it's a good chat community

Shad medieval 2 total war has javelins! Look at my comment.

really great video shad. :) Can you cover more less known common weapons from history. Like that throwing Blade ring from India.

What medieval weapons would multi-armed humanoids really use?

Sever?

Limburg

Longy* 😂😂

i think they are just long lawn darts lol

@@menacingcar0449 I heard it was called a plumbata. The person said they saw a war game using it, and that it's fletched ends have the special effect of self-righting, meaning it can be thrown any kind of way and still end up pointing forward when it hits somebody. Cool stuffm

In other words a javelin

Fletched pommels would be more effective

POMMEL OF MASS DESTRUUCTIOOOOOON

Stop your invoking Goliath's PTSD.

Shuttlerock?

Birdie*

Say ain't the strip just a sling for a javlin like objects?

same in Spain, mounted javelinmen were the light cavalry standard. the idea was that javelins are very good at dealing with armor so they could be used to hunt heavy cavalry and other elite armored troops.

gaelic peltasts were a thing in medieval Ireland?

Though he didn't really touch on the main reason the javelin was used which is damage. An issue with arrows is that they are light and very easily stopped by even padded armor. Because their amount of blunt force is so low they are very likely to just bounce harmlessly off of armor or helmets. Also even if they do penetrate there is a chance it's a minor wound. Arrow fire often works better to supress enemies and to bombard them. It's very unlikely you are going to kill an enemy soldier with a single arrow. Medieval archers also had a very hard upper limit in their accuracy due to again the arrows being light and easily affected by imperfections in the wood as it bends during flight and air movements. A javelin is a lot heavier and stiffer so a good thrower is far more accurate than a good archer. The big limitation though is supply. However on castle sieges they were actually the most common weapon for the defenders since they can just stockpile them in the armory and have servants bring them to them during the battle.

What you are describing though was not the most common use of javelins during the middle ages. What you are describing is how the Romans fought with the Pilum used at first to break up the enemy and frighten them before engaging with heavy infantry. Making sure the enemy is never able to bring it's full strength to bare against you. In the middle ages though this was still done but wasn't as prominent due to the dominance of cavalry that could very easily surprise an army and a weaving rider can be very hard to hit with a javelin. Infantry armies were also more disciplined and had more armor so were less likely to be put off by a javelin attack. They did use tools to throw javelins but they were not straps, they were a stick with a cup on the end called an atlatl. However not only did this usually mean one less javelin to throw but with projectile weapons total range is usually not a terribly important metric. What matters most is the maximum range you can effectively hit a target. A more common use for the atlatl was actually to increase the power of a javelin at shorter range to pierce through wooden castle defenses and shields.

How do you know these things!

Shadiversity sorry shad I can't give away my sources unless hey are publicly available

let me guess--you were Hiccup training lizards

Finally someone adressed the most important question: What about DRAGONS?! Finally, god bless you!

His dad's friend had a club foot?

Shawn Wolf tbh I dont kniw why they dont have spears in skyrim

@@Agreus-WolfsbaneYT They were too lazy to create another weapon type and figure out how it works

@@xryeau_1760 i don't think it has anything to do with laziness

@@Agreus-WolfsbaneYT Probably should've made it clear that what I said was a guess

@@Agreus-WolfsbaneYT There's a mod for it on the nexus , i recall its name is javelin. not a built-in game feature, but hey at least you and enemy NPC could throw pointy stick at each other now, dunno of it will works or not for the companion thought

Isn't that basically the history of ancient warfare? People with pointy sticks.

Yes the team with most pointy sticks wins

Not really. In that arrows are far more effective. The issue is that if someone get's close to you your bow is useless. Javalins are useful when you want ranged attacks but you can't be sure you are safe.

Or you could just have archers sitting safely ON the wall behind crenelations where they need no shield and have greater range and fire power. The advantage of javelins are on the open battle field where you can shoot and scoot while holding a shield. Light infantry skirmishers screening the main force relied heavy on javalins. Archers can't do that as they can't hold shields and are forced to stand in the tight groups with protection from heavier forces to provide volley fire.

@@majungasaurusaaaa Javelin throwers are a bit of middle ground of both. They are not as effective ranged soldiers as archers and not as effective melee soldiers as spearman. However they can do both job somewhat.

I was too. They’re practically the same.

He showed a version of it at the beginning and end.

probably not medieval :O very interesting concept though

I know. Pictures he showed were atlatls..

Or pilum :( when he talked about how it makes sense arming infantry with thrown spears so they can have a ranged option while being able to double up as a spear, I immediately thought he would reference the Roman's heavy infantry

END HIM RIGHTLY

Which video started the pommel of destruction joke?

@@Ben_Kimber Skallagrim's end him rightly video

A rock

A rock Edit Oops thats taken lol

also provides descriptive clarity, saying war javelin I think of regular javelins and saying war darts I think of arambai...

I don't know, personally, I think war dart sounds pretty neat.

One thing I've learned is that no matter what idea you come up with someone already has had it before. So it really is more a matter rather it's more fun coming up with it yourself or looking it up.

I meantioned idea of using apponets arrows against them once. Response was "you can't do that!" Why not? O.o

scotty rose My issue with that is most interpretations of winged humanoids, the wings are on the shoulders, so a throwing motion wouldn’t be possible without messing with flight characteristics enough to be dangerous low to the ground

Barrett Jordan yes, but if you can fly, why be low to the ground? stay high, and throw the war darts straight down. kind of like using a post hole digger. being low to the ground with cause them to give up their main advantage, altitude.

scotty rose If you’re that high up, drop dozens of flechettes instead, would be much more effective, especially against large formations. You could even approach in a large formation unseen from cloud cover and devastate armies with no risk

Barrett Jordan ya, the war the main idea of Shad's video on weapons for angles/demons. they would be good for a large group of combatants. but, once you whittle then down to just a few, flachettes would be almost useless. but these would work great, did picking of the few survivors; or, if you're only having a few to start with.

Barrett Jordan you should watch Shad'a videos of angles/demons weapons. I think you're really like it.

I was wondering the same thing. I noticed them in a couple of the pictures, but they weren't mentioned once.

The use of the Atlatl in Mesoameriica is pretty interesting. Unlike in the Old World, where the Bow and Arrow mostly supplanted the Atlatl due too ease of use and greater range despite packing less power, in Mesoamerica the atlatl continued to see widespread use alongside the bow well past the development of complex civilizations and organized armies: Even at the time of contact with Europeans, around 3000 years after when the region saw it's first cities and proto-states, the Atlatl continued to be favored by a lot of city-states and larger empires, including the Aztecs. In fact, in central mesoamerica, the Atlatl was seen as the more refined weapon, wheras the bow was seen as primitive and barbaric, as the bow was mainly favored by the Chichimeca, which were basically Mesoamerica's equivalent to Germanic tribes: They were nomadic, unorganized groups that the rest of the region (which was otherwise entirely filled with actual organized political states operating out of cities) saw as savage, wheras the atlatl was used by the earlier Toltecs, who the Aztecs and other groups at the time of contact saw as their cultural and intellectual fore-bearers. What's ironic is that the Aztecs actually had Chichimeca heritage, being one of a few recent waves of Chichimeca groups moving further south from northern mexico and settling down in the central area around the time of the decline of the toltecs, and only married into the established Toltec lineage in the area, which they used to justify their rule. Mesoamerican history is super interesting and I wished more people made an effort to learn and inform others about it, it has the same sort of interesting cultural, political, and martial dynamics, such as political marriages, coups, etc; that classical antiquity or medieval history has, but with it's own quirks due to it's geographic isolation.

In Europe the atlatl fell out of favor over the leather sling to throw darts. Its easier to carry you can make a bunch of them already tied to the dart so you can just grab and throw. It also puts spin on the dart which makes it fly straighter. Tod also shows that it gives you pretty much the same distance (though that is up for debate).

Doesn't it effectively act as a lever to throw long darts farther than one could throw a javelin?

Atalt have two military advantages, one mentioned in the video is that you can use it when carriying a shield, the second one is that a bow, made with a natural fiber or natural tegument, lose it string elasticity with time, so to prevent these you have to keep the string partially unattached when marching to battle and then attach it right before it, (in spanish we say that you arm the bow, armar el arco, i do not how to say these in english), these of course leave you vulnerable to a surprise attack, with an Atlatl you can march fully armed at all times.

those are javelins. are you referring to plumbatae?

Sigular is Pilum, Plural is Pila :P But I agree. A great weapon, and at 12:00 Shad specifically speaks about how good a war dart with a bodkin head might have been against armour. Thats exactly what a pilum is (Well, its a javelin, not a dart), but its a heavy javelin with a bodkin head, specifically to be used as shield breaker.

Though they were not used for that long range because a big disadvantage of javelins is the limited ammo capacity. You can't use them for long range bombardment as you'll run out far too quickly. The atlatl was not used all that frequently cause the accuracy at those distances were very low. The times it was used was more commonly to give additional power at the ranges you could throw it by hand. To do things like pierce shields and wooden defenses. The most common use of the javelin was actually for castle defenses. After all you can just stock up the armory with them so the ammo problem is no longer there. Shad also kind of glossed over another major advantage of the javelin which is it's much higher damage output. Arrows often have the issue of low damage output and are more easily stopped by armor.

Gallowglass "particularly bothersome" lol

That's a great point! I reckon most horses could survive and power through an arrow hit, especially if it was only in skin and muscle, with all the adrenaline of battle... But a war javelin! With that hooked head! Shad said they were good for hunting animals because they wouldn't fall out. If you hit a horse with that, it's either going to stop it outright, or drag it along the ground and cause more damage. Either way, one dead horse and one dismounted rider!

I always thought cavalry were the best for dealing with skirmishers (dart throwers, slingers, etc.), but in a guerilla context, skirmishers would probably win a lot of the time.

*A Guy With Zeratul as His Profile Pic* I'm pretty sure that's the general idea of skirmishers

Let's not forget that archers need to be able to see what they're aiming at, which may not always be the case in real battles as it is on tv. Long range weapons in hilly or scrub or forest terrain may not be so effective. Something deadly at closer range will always be useful. In fact if I were facing an army with a lot of archers or slingers, I would probably choose to situate myself IN a forested area to eliminate that threat totally.

Drizzt Iley ...And ending them all rightly.

Can you aim a pommel effectively?

Armando Fuentes all you need to do is thow in their general direction as the splash will get them

Cause sharps. Make the tip out of a pommel?

I have argued different pieces of this before... my favorite weapon in early D&D computer RPGs was the returning throwing axe, because you could miss and they would keep going until they reached their maximum range and they'd come back. With any maneuvering you get them to hit on the way back. There were precedents for weapons getting surprise if you couldn't see them (switch blades and other spring knives, glasssteel blades in poor lighting.) And of course a thief can backstab. So what I want is returning glasssteel throwing axes for a thief. If they miss on the first pass the thief can attempt to use them for a backstab... and if they are vorpal and they sever a limb on the way out, obviously they should continue out to their maximum range. In that case you could try the second attack on the way back.

Are you using two shields? I often thought of doing this but it kind of felt... cheap. Plus I like to have a sword, a spear, a shield and some throwing weapons. I would have to sacrifice one of those to double up on shield.

I was tired of looking like dead hedgehog so yeah, I was using two shields.

Can you share more details?

"Calradia" not "Caldaria" you uneducated plebeian smelly Nord.

TheArklyte what game?

I believe this is what the dart in D&D is based on.

There are certainly javelins in DnD. I have first learned about them in a DnD video game - ToEE or PoR it was.

@@wadekirby8575 that would be cool. But seeing as how it only does 1d4 of damage. I assumed it was just a small dart. Especially since its used primarily by monks. It seemed like a monk-like weapon

@@ZLemons Yea, this is more of a light javelin. Now I think the Plumbata is what the dart comes from. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-EfgMfSZiQSU.html

You probably could have people who don't know how to use bows to throw these things to fight them.

You could throw darts at them from the MACHICULAAAATTIIIIOONNNNSSS!

Dragons > Lots of things but Large Arrows > Dragons Proof: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-aagcohKBybY.html

Well, at least they didn't send you to the moon.

Ipsum quaerere and now you have no knee...or leg for that matter

Actually some nations do that historically, even of horseback - turks, persians, crimean tatars - I know just about them for sure, but maybe even more do that also. Well, those shield were small, buckler sized, but non the less. Here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1X3M8qHrO4M.html and here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DWUhqnooHF4.html

Observe: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-CaGZnLyCPXw.html

ADG Reviews Should be cool more Primitive and ancient content, is very underrated

Oddly enough, I've got him immediately adjacent to this video in my feed. Good algorithming, RU-vid.

My memory could be a mite fuzzy, but I'd swear that "war darts" (which javelins usually end up representing anyway) actually existed in earlier editions of D&D, though their stats have been quite inconsistent. I vaguely recall my longtime group and I having read the description of darts somewhere in 2nd Edition AD&D and discussing that it seemed like "throwing arrows" despite the weapon stats not really matching what we read - specifically the low damage (about half that of javelins). Again, memory isn't what it used to be, so I may have to go back to my 2nd Edition books and see if I can find that description somewhere...

D&D 5E has both "Darts" and "Javelins". Somehow, darts are starting equipment for monks....

@@Gabdube Thats because they are thinking of "darts" as similar to shriuken.

Avatrass It's kinda a semantic point, but I consider there to be a difference between hunting spears and javelins. To me, javelins are weapons of war (that later became the sport like swordfighting became fencing) Might just be a matter of preference.

Fat Tiger same. I'm writing a fantasy novel that has a medieval fantasy version of the Roman Republic (I know; how original...), and I'm going to switch the javelins to fletched javelins.

Ahh the plumbata.

Dont forget the 'atleatle' or Woomara style thrower, makes them far more effective.

Don't forget the plumbata

Yep, the Plumbata is literally a fletched javelin

Alessandro Navone and William Gonzalez from the pictures and such that I've seen, the plumbata was not much bigger than an actual dart, and had a weight just behind the head so that it would have decent impact.

Malara Hedeki a pommel in a sling would probably actually be pretty brutal memes aside

Austin Chan you ever play a little game called mount and blade?

#NotInMyWar #BanFullAutoAssaultDarts

Are Age of Empires 2 Arambai units good too? They throw darts from horseback.

In some Skyrim modes war darts (and javelins) are present too.

ThEy ArE iN cHiVaLry

Yeah war dart could be like a light javelin, but with more range. Chivalry already had 3 types of javelins last I checked.

I remember that book series! I think I still have it

And now I want a Shad review for Flanagan's work even more :)

JustFlemishMe : Mr. Flanagan did two series, The Ranger's Apprentice and The Brotherband, both are set in a mythology european early medieval setting. The Ranger's Apprentice is based off England and the Brotherband is Viking. Although both series are hero journey style they are not very historical but are an excellent read. I highly recommend both series.

Yeah, I know, I read every book so far :) I just consider the work as almost monolithic because they're obviously set in the same universe. I'm mostly interested in believability. John Flanagan certainly seems to know his stuff, and I really give him props for his attention to tactics; always leads me to enjoy his battles. But I'd like a more... Shall wa say, specialized eye to see if it really does add up =)

Well, it's over, slime bucket.

"I hate chu!"

Much unlike the inventor’s dick I don’t regret this

To penetrate vital organs.

When I first saw those, I literally asked out loud "Why are they shooting spears?!?"

Giant Arrows! Free samples to anyone nearby! No-one can say no to them. You'll get your samples whether you like it or not.

Because normal arrows aren't big enough when dragons are involved.

"why not? its a game and therefore a form of art and therefore we can do whatever we want to increase enjoyably?"

No, you are wrong. It should give you flashbacks from Mount & Blade or Mount & Blade Warband, or any of its mods. You haven't lived if you haven't played Mount & Blade.

Elmithian NEED MORE *S W O R D S.*

Not enough English Longbows.

While Skall is once again selling his stack... Just what is Shad's day job?

I've noticed that too. Just finished reading Lady Gregory's Irish Mythology and I don't remember bows being mentioned at all. Irish seemed to prefer slings and spears/javelins/war darts for ranged combat. Very intriguing. Any idea why that might be?

Slayerlord0 or maybe prevalence of bows is more of a modern myth, huh?

Eh. I feel like it was more of a regional or cultural thing. Period artwork and their prevalence in myth and religion shows to me that bows were fairly common most other places in the world. Not everywhere, obviously, but most. Maybe its just because I'm used to thinking of the European weaponry in a certain way, but the lack of bows in Celtic Ireland just seems like an oddity and I'm curious as to why it developed that way.

Possibly the notoriously damp climate of Ireland made bows less reliable tools of war there Rain, mist or just plain damp can affect drawstrings, feathers used as fletchings and the bow itself (especially if glue was used in its construction). If you are a soldier and your life depends on your primary weapon working each time, every time and in every situation, then perhaps bows were less than ideal weapons in Ireland

+Tom Golf you might be right

Snigga Odinson we made a reply to him look it up :)

Beat me on the plumbatae by 2 hours!

When you test war dart, could you also test how much more power you get into throw it you use atlatl to throw the dart? Might be interesting to see the difference in damage.

Stop calling throwing arm (idk if I translate right) an atatl! It's not an aztec-only tool!

but atatl takes less time to type out

A thick jacket can make a .38 useless too, actually. Particularly with hollow point ammo

Alex P Those darn Sarrinids...

Yes, but you can't count on unsophisticated plebs to know about Mount & Blade either. Most people somehow associate fletched javelins with Dark Souls, and apparently have never seen or heard of it anywhere else.

MagnumGreenPanther anything is a deadly weapon if you have strong enough conviction

Poor Longbottom.

Snigga Odinson Muslim licence?

There was a raccoon attacking people out side the hotel (by the trash) my dad stayed at frequently. My dad ducktaped his Spyderco endura to a broom the hotel staff had. and he went out back and the raccoon came out of the trash and he threw the "spear" and it went into the raccoon. Which, he caught and killed swiftly.