With thanks to James Bannon for taking part. James' book is available here - www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CZ7OBO2/ James' Twitter - twitter.com/runningwiththef
I find it impossible to digest how the courts will jail a football hooligan for up to 7 years for fighting with men who also want to fight but give 18 month sentences to predators who harm innocent children
I've never understood the concept of that part either. Someone gets out their motor and comes towards you, they've given consent to a fight. You get out, you've also given consent to a fight. Suddenly you're charged with all sorts of shit. Fighting is one of the most natural and primal things we do.
Absolutely, the sentencing and conviction rates are appalling for sex offences in the UK, on another point sometimes a fellas getting out the car to de-escalate a situation not necessarily to fight!
@@mrnice7570 I can honestly suggest not to do this. Maybe up north you can swing it, but in London getting out of your car during a road rage incident is an invitation, at this moment you have an option as the driver who is last out, stay put and be hit in your seat/be at a serious disadvantage or get out now. If both of you are out of the car, just to have a little shouting match, why bother embarrassing yourself? Not once have I ever thought someone jumping out of their car during road rage could possibly be to de-escalate the situation. Could be I'm the problem though 🤷
@@-j308 could be that having a mindset that believes posturing and violence is a good method of conflict resolution is the problem after all. When did rational human beings stop being rational at least in the initial stage of any form of incident. Weakness reacts. Strength seeks at least at first to understand
"I wouldn't wanna be you when Jim finds out" is one of the best podcast moments I have seen. And I watched a lot of those. I am so glad I watched the whole interview. You folks are doing amazing work! Keep it up
I knew an Everton fan who moved to London to join the Met he was a thug he hated West Ham cos they beat us in the FAC semi final in 1980. He got a massive buzz being at Upton Park on duty beating up the fans. He was the biggest football hooligan I ever knew
Jim's book is top class. He really captures the pain he felt deceiving people he came to consider as friends. It does have me thinking did Millwall allow him in knowing he would become addicted? No other undercover team got as deep as his team did.
I love how this man conducts the interviews. So many hosts overtalk, cutoff, or dont let the guest fully expand upon a single thought. The best interviews just flow and the guest can just expand on a single thought or story before moving on to the next question. He leads the guest thrn backs off, then hops in with a reaction or new question. Far to often these hosts will ask 1 thing then cut the guest off and ask something else before the gues can truly expand upon the initial thought
Great interview on a fascinating subject. Those of us alive today who grew up in relative affluence forget that, for people that grew up in poor working class environments, violence was part of their lives. Most didn't go looking for it but wouldn't back down if challenged. Modern day men have had that civilised out of us but that natural instinct still lurks underneath.
Just a quickish run down.. In one smallish Firm A Brickie, Stonemason, Undertaker, Counsellor, Accountant, physiotherapist, Registrar, Dentist, Shop Owner, Shop Workers, Restaurant Owner, Chef, Publican, Teachers, Wedding Photographer, Indie Musician, Indie Band Kennels Owner Recording Studios Owner Authors Miners Just a Snap Shot of Working Class 1980 - 1990 Great Britain Hardly Thatchers Working Class Britain Something else Thatcher and The Police 'Force being the operative word' Forces. up and down the land got so badly wrong..and are still who will they blame the next thing wrong ?
I knew a Met copper who had tried to infiltrate the Millwall firm around that time. He ended up knee capped and forcibly retired instantly. He died 2 years ago, barely into his sixties, having suffered decades of agony and limited movement. A dangerous game indeed.
Not being born till 88 I actually by chance came across the book before the film. Found it at work shifting through papers in a newspaper recycling plant. Saw the cover thought it looked interesting, took it home and read it, loved it. I’m not a huge book reader usually but I’d definitely recommend, it’s pretty much how it is this interview. Very blunt tone to the book and very descriptive to the point where you can imagine yourself there with him. Also what I like about the book is he doesn’t hold back on what he thought and felt at each point. It’s a refreshingly very frank account of a story. There were one or two other things in the book that I found equally interesting that weren’t mentioned in this interview like the effect of the intensity and complexity of his double life had on his relationship with his mrs and also when he started getting close to one of the barmaids whilst undercover and having to keep up the pretence of being James the hooligan. It’s a good read and I would definitely recommend. Still not seen the film but know it’s called ID. Actually bought it and started watching it once. Couldn’t really get into the film though tbh but I know a lot of people like it
Regarding the story of the crystal palace fan, attacking normal fans was seen as well against the rules, it proved nothing, brought unnecessary attention and was really frowned upon and seen as bullying
Showed to me that the officer hadn't done his research. He should have known that this is an important rule and he could have stepped in without it looking suspicious.
I've been listening to these at work almost every day since last week and they are brilliant! However Ben the interviewer is so beautifully nieve he adds comedy value to this.
I worked in a pub in Piccadilly during the height of hooliganism in England. In walk a bunch of guys, rowdy and hyped up for the match. A couple of them wearing long jackets. During the time they were there I saw them showing each other the "weapons" they had brought with them.... I'll never forget seeing one guy with a broom handle, cut down to about 30cm with nails sticking out of it.... unreal ❗❗
I encountered uncovers in my late 80s time in that life, certainly the ones I met were 100% committed (or alternatively just loved it) they got fully involved in incidents in every way
same for me but in the 90s. they were as part of it as we were. and then sat in court explaining how bad the people they were alongside were. they were just as bad. they had to be or we'd've known they were OB.
I really like James' interviews but I'm constantly hoping he tells some other stories that are different from the palace fan on the train and being in the arsenal north bank. I know they're highlights but I think a second part or something would be great and would probably end up with stories that haven't been told before. Another great interview though regardless, he's fascinating.
Interesting listening to him talk, how he's naturally quite cautious with information. I don't think he's being intentionally difficult, it's just how he's wired. Effective for the job he did I'm sure.
No mate not at all the met is in the shit it is in because they have EMPLOYED a load of Cs ok with no respect no moral compass and are all about their ego and ego is controlled by the devil and they are all about the pension fund.
Half way through I was thinking this sounds like ID.... then later on the penny downs.. brave man at his age and to see the film was based on this man ... wow
@@Millwall77 Ah, I think I've heard of it...I'm in my last year of university doing a BA in creative and professional writing 🙏🏽 mature student who never did school...wish me luck..I'll buy your book ✌🏽
I lived in and around the den in a tower block called archer tower. Loved my childhood round there and going to childerek school. Yes I’m a millwall fan 💯❤️
That is the least copper like copper I have ever seen. If you told me he was a former top boy at Millwall in the 80's? Id absolutely fuckin believe it. Without a moments hesitation.
Absolutely riveting interview - this guy is awesome I think. ‘ but it’s Arsenal away’ - what a great response 🙃 yes . 15 crazy millwall in the north bank - is the stuff of legend, awesome. Imagine having to pretend to be illiterate for 18 months . Extraordinary. Is there a book ? - I would absolutely get that . Haven’t got to the end yet but wow what a story… I remember what it was like back then , as a teenager 1975 I was 16 - just an ordinary part time football hooligan - there’s something that just pulls you in. I never wanted to hurt anyone - and was no ‘headhunter’ or whatever. That story of the guy on the train with his family is heartbreaking - a cowardly act as he was with his family. I was young and am not now, what I was then. Peace 🕉️ 💙
Its fascinating to watch these two trying to communicate across the generation gap. Bannon doesn’t give much away in his answers, maybe because he assumes things should be obvious, or maybe he’s reluctant to spell it all out for the kid. It feels awkward but makes the interviewer pry for explanations, so we lean in for more. Bannon’s generation honed a different set of skills to survive in a world younger people can only imagine, relying on memory and wit to be accepted socially, having awareness of your surroundings without mobile technology and surveillance, no procedures manual or OH&S built into every part of our lives.. The self reliance, the attitude that if no one else is showing me, I’d better figure it out for myself.
40:40 where James is asked whether he told his 'friends and best mates' whether he was an uncover football hooligan, his body language reveals he's either very uncomfortable or lying in answering the question. Notice how he strokes the back of his neck, looks upwards and eyes darting rapidly from right to left, blushes slightly and there's a long pause and an 'errrm' before he answers...he's filling an uncomfortable gap with non-verbal communication body language. In psychology of body language where a person gives away subconscious non-verbal communication like this it can often be a tell sign someone isn't being entirely honest with themselves or the person they're speaking to. Touching the face, hair, and back stroking like he does here are a classic tell-tale sign (where that's not seen consistently or often when someone is talking, ie a sudden deviation from baseline). It's nearly always a subconscious form of self-reassurance before or during a lie. All through answering that question you see further self-reassuring signs, stroking back of his leg, his knee, and some shifting around in his seat. I'm not saying James was deliberately lying or being honest, but he certainly wasn't at all comfortable with that question and doesn't know how to answer it. Perhaps because when your life is based around a lie and deception, it's difficult to remember who you told what to and he's put on the spot with that question and can't give a definitive answer as he probably had to compartmentalise his life into friends he could tell and friends he couldn't and had to lie to. And he maybe feels bad for lying to some of his friends. Even how someone looks upwards (and which direction) tells psychologists whether a person is answering truthfully or dishonestly as we know from how they look which area of the brain is being accessed, whether its present or past memory function accessing.
Personally I find football REALLY effing boring! Now what I WOULD like to see is this. Chuck in a load of firms in a football ground, close off all the exits, chuck in a load of weapons (but no firearms, as that would be too quick and easy) and then film it. No holds barred among the contestants. Who would be the winner? Last person STILL left alive wins. BTW...I am NOT joking. There would be ONE rule....anybody who entered the arena, under the above conditions, MUST be a volunteer, and a WILLING participant.
There's a movie about this movie called "ID" so violent so scary to see that world and the story is quite tame compared to the real story this guy tells
That part about not being able to read or write is part of the plot to ID. That's a bit odd. 1995 British film about exactly what this guy is talking about. Infiltrating football hooliganism undercover. Oh, wrote that before the last few minutes. Turns out I am right!!
If only they put that much effort, time and money into stopping grooming gangs and drug pushers. Just another way of hiding from real work (crime) and far less dangerous.
I highly recommend `I.D.` (1995) its a great film about just how dodgy it musta been goin undercover in a group of fight loving hooligans. Listening to this they got the story pretty much spot on (minus the drug abuse id guess)
Wow, this was such an eye-opening interview! I had no idea what it was like to be an undercover cop infiltrating football hooligans. James Bannon is a legend for doing that at such a young age. He must have some crazy stories to tell. I especially liked the part where he said he never went down in a fight, even when he was outnumbered and outmatched. That takes some serious guts and skill. Respect! 👏 This podcast is always delivering amazing content with extraordinary guests. I love how they ask the questions that we all want to know the answers to. Keep up the good work, LADbible! You guys are awesome! 😍 What do you think is the most dangerous situation James Bannon ever faced in his undercover work? Share your thoughts below and let’s have a discussion. 🔥
What is a hooligan? I'm from the states and I just can't wrap my mind around a violent group of people, conducting themselves essentially as a gang but based around a football team? Are they more than just violent drunks? Like deal drugs, do break ins, illegal gambling? What makes someone a hooligan? Thx for any answers.
A hooligan or firm is a group of men who support the same football team and fight with other firms from other football teams, they do it for fun and the kudos of getting one over on the opposition. Try googling the ICF or Inter City Firm which was West Ham's firm, they got their name from the train that took them to the away matches i.e. Inter City Train. Their normally quite organised and wear designer clothes like Burberry, they love a drink and a snort of cocaine and just love fighting at the weekend. Look out for a film called 'Football Factory'. I hope this helps ?
Violent drunks is exactly what they were/are.They are doing it "just for the crack"! There maybe criminal elements but they will also be hard working, 9 to 5 blokes who "have a tear up" at the weekend". It's a tribal thing. Hope that helps! I've left in the hooligan colloquialism for you to Google for translation 😃
Group of regular lads generally all from around the area where the club is. Probably have regular trade or 9-5 jobs in week and just go to the football together get drunk and if they bump into the other group like this from the other team probably have a punch up😂 Some of them might be up to no good in the week n some of them will be chill people generally. It’s just like a day out going across the country with your mates. Generally try and avoid trouble with people not there for the same reasons as them but there’s always a few who don’t follow that (like in here the guy attacking the civilian Crystal Palace fan)
A hooligan is a "soccer" fan with a very low level of intellect. They struggle with life in general and have very little interest in anything else other than drinking lots of alcohol and fighting each other and then boasting about it. Absolutely tragic to be honest.
