Understanding AGM vs Lead Cell and Pairing With the Correct Charger

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We spent some time with the guys at Jones Trolling Motor exploring why my boats AGM cranking battery would not fully charge when charged along with my wet cell trolling motor batteries on a multi-bank built in charging system. If you have never understood what CCA, MCA, Reserve Capacity means, what kind of charger to use for different batteries, which is the best type of battery for your cranking battery, which is best for trolling motors, most anything to do with marine batteries and battery charging systems this is the video for you. We also specifically discuss the Minn Kota PC charger, the new JL Marine Power Pole Charging system as well as the Quad Pro System that came in my Ranger 521C.
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8 мар 2021

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@soonerfan1675 5 месяцев назад

Hello Ken, I realize I'm commenting on a 2 year old video but I wanted to tell you how much I have enjoyed your videos at Jones Trolling Motor. I had some trouble with my Ultrex a few years ago and drove from OKC to Texarkana just to meet the great John Jones and have him do the work. I knew John from corresponding with him on Bass Boat Central and knew his illness was progressing so my broken Ultrex gave me the incentive to make the long trip...twice. John Jones was a good man and was willing to help everyone and is certainly missed on our forum. It's heartwarming to see his business is still flourishing after his passing. BTW...the advice given in this video is right on. I ruined a very expensive X2 Power AGM battery by charging it with too small of charger that wasn't specifically made for AGM. I installed the MK Precision MK-345PC and my new battery seems very happy. I do plan on putting the meter on it just to confirm. Thanks for the great information....keep 'em coming.

@scottfrost8956 3 года назад

INFORMATION WE ALL NEED AND VALUABLE! Thanks Ken Smith! 🙌

@jamssosv 3 года назад

I've been using the Minn Kota 460PC for several years with an AGM crank and 3 Wet Cell deep cycles and it's been great.

@hughace4612 2 года назад

Instablaster.

@mp5kfisher241 Год назад

Do you leave your charger plugged and running in when not using your boat?

@johnpilcherfishing5156 3 года назад

My team partner has the dual pro on his ranger and has always had battery trouble. I upgraded my ranger charger to the Minnkota precession when I ordered it. And my interstates are over 2 years old and still going strong. Knock on wood.

@Manuel_Z_Kayaks 2 года назад

LOVE INTERSTATE BUT... Bought a 5 year interstate at Firestone. With 2 years left Firestone stopped carrying interstate. Mgr on duty wouldn't help me because she was the asst. Mgr. She said take it to Midas up the road. At Midas the Mgr. had some BS rule that the battery has to be in the vehicle it was purchased for (I BOUGHT IT FOR MY BOAT!) I told him the sticker on the battery shows it's still under warrantee. He then said I had to have a receipt and kind of walked away like he didn't care. I never have these problems at Autozone!

@KenSmithFishing 2 года назад

that is NOT a good battery experience!

@24bhyn 3 года назад

Thank you

@ronswinford4952 3 года назад

Great info there Ken, thanks

@kevinhagen6596 3 года назад

Great info guys. I was ignorant about AGM battery charging issues, PC charger coming soon.

@kendalllunsford775 3 года назад

This is really great informtion.... Like you, my Ranger has the Dual Pro Delta Volt................ and will make sure to stay with all wet cell batteries until such a time that I look at a new / different charger..... I put a Minn Kota 460PC on my last boat and loved it.......... Really appreciate the in depth look at batteries and charging systems....... It will certainly help in decisions made down the road.......... Love your page, Ken........ Thanks so much for sharing......

@ronwallace7563 3 года назад

WOW!! More great information. I knew some of this, but learned some new stuff too. Thanks sir!!

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

glad you enjoyed

@red1tpm 3 года назад

Great..great..great...great Information..priceless!!!

@cbachfishing3937 3 года назад

I ran one AGM for cranking and one 36 volt lithium for trolling, charged by the Power Pole Charge all last tournament season and love it. You can easily set all the charging parameters for each battery using your mobile phone. Spent the money and don’t regret it.

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

I keep hearing the same thing, is it true it can divert juice from the motor alternator to other batteries besides the crank?

@cbachfishing3937 3 года назад

@@KenSmithFishing yes for sure. You have a toggle on the phone app that allows you to do this. I live in Grapevine if you want to see it in action.

@txman201 3 года назад

@@KenSmithFishing The Power Pole Charge diversion of power to the TM batteries is automatic when the outboard is running. It is a "charge on the run" system as well as an AC charger when you get back to the barn. It's not necessary to "flip a switch setting" to charge while running the outboard. Where the "change a setting" comes in is if you want to go into Emergency Start Mode. In that mode, you cause the charger to use the TM battery power to fast-charge the starting battery (a 5 minute process to transfer power), after which you can try starting the outboard again. The diversion priority while fishing (no outboard running) can be chosen via a slider on the phone app, by the way. You can tell the unit to keep the starting battery charged at the expense of the TM batteries, the other way around, or equal priority. When you crank the outboard, the Charge always gives priority to the TM batteries first. (I don't like this, and it cannot be changed.) This approach insures your TM will run as long as possible at the expense of a possible weak starting battery at the end of the day.

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

@@txman201 The reason it charges to the trolling 1st is because that is a bigger battery bank and if the starting battery is low you can use the power from the bigger bank to jump start the gas motor.

@txman201 3 года назад

@@adamportner8102 valid point, but my personal preference would be to insure I'm not down to the wire on power and having to hope the jump works. I'm finding that 3 100AH lithium deep cycle batteries don't get depleted in a day as it is, so I'd rather see the AGM start battery be kept at a high charge level. If I'm running pumps and electronics, etc. a lot, the start/main battery suffers a lot more depletion than the lithium TM batteries. I also just learned Charge is a series charger, meaning it charges TM batteries in series at 24/36 volts, not as 2/3 independent 12v chargers. This is NOT preferred by battery manufacturers. Your batteries won't fail at exactly the same rate, so as the first one degrades, Charge has no choice but to cook the other two batteries in an attempt to raise the voltage on the one battery beginning to fail first.

@BassGangsta 3 года назад

good staff !this guys awesome 👏🏻🍻

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

Agreed!

@randycooper2046 3 года назад

Ken, I'm an electrical engineer and I don't agree with everything the guy was saying about batteries & chargers. Now I know you don't have to be an electrical engineer to know what you are talking about but he is only speaking from his experience. I personally have a relatively inexpensive, 3 bank, charger in my boat that is compatible with lead acid & AGM batteries. I'm running AGM's on a Ghost at 24V (20 ft 4 in boat) and lead cranking and have zero issues. Been running the same AGM's for 4 years now. I leave my charger plugged in 24/7 because after a while it goes onto a maintenance mode that is good for the batteries. The risk of a surge is real but extremely low and worth it in my opinion. BTW and algorithm is an arithmetic sentence (or formula) that performs a particular functuon. No doubt the battery manufacturers are going to know that formula (algorithm) better than anyone else. Enjoy your videos!

@txman201 3 года назад

Agree on the concern for inaccuracies, technical and otherwise. There are numerous chargers that will do the job correctly, but there's tunnel vision to the one sold at that establishment. Ken appears to have two chargers active on a battery at the same time, probably not a very good way to go about that as it confuses status sense circuits. You probably also know the Ghost can't be operated at 24V/36V by only the press of a button (as stated on the video) - the battery wiring configuration also requires change. The brushless motor on the Ghost is great too!

@bluesinsation 3 года назад

Good video and info. Pretty funny that the ad before and in your video was for the noco genius onboard charger. As for me, I just run another big lead deep cycle interstate trolling motor battery as my starting battery... for my 2021 Mercury v8 200 hp. And yep, I leave the onboard charger plugged in and charging all the batteries all the time... in my boat lift... but I go for a boat ride nearly every day. Sometimes I even catch a fish, LOL.

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

You thing the YT algorithms are pretty smart to place that ad???

@kevinclark4154 3 года назад

Ken you may want to unplug your built in charger while you are charging the AGM with the Viking charger. I could see having both chargers on at the some time possibly confusing them. Even though the built it charger is showing 100% it is probably still throwing voltage at your AGM in maintain mode. That may explain the voltage drop you saw in the video.

@txman201 3 года назад

Yes, each charger's sense circuit is seeing the output of the other charger on the battery terminals, and there's no telling how each charger responds to that. Run one or the other, not both at the same time.

@davidrobertson969 3 года назад

Ken, just added an Interstate 31 AGM to my boat for Active Target. After seeing this video I ordered a trickle charger you recommended from Amazon. My 2013 Phoenix came with a “Sportsman Tri Pro series” on board charger from the factory. After showing full charge I put the trickle charge on the AGM and it immediately registered full charge. So besides the Minn Kota charger mentioned I would recommend the Sportsman for around $375

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

David I think all of the newer chargers are getting updated, the one in mine is from ‘18

@cjr4497 3 года назад

AGM's are great for trolling motors. RC (reserve capacity) and AH (amp hours) are two ways to calculate the same thing, how long a battery will last at a given load. The type of battery doesn't inherently give it more RC or AH than the other. AGM's live longer and are maintenance free. They will not "cut out" faster than an equivalent agm battery. A good AGM can last 8 to 10 years where a well maintained wet cell will give you 3 - 4 years max. This is because of the battery's construction. Agm's can be drawn down and recharged more times than a wet cell. My guess is the shop owner means that if you don't have the proper charger then you are better off running wet cell batteries. That would be the only way one would have more RC than the other simply because one wasn't fully charged. Lastly, the amps the charger puts out doesn't have anything to do with how full a battery gets. You can fully charge an agm with a 4 amp charger. The only difference is that it will take longer. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

You are 100% right. I don't want to insult this guy but I believe he pushes sales on what he sees works in his little circle but isn't as educated on the topic as he should be. I work in the automotive industry and I see top techs giving out wrong information all the time. Even shop managers. Even my boss.

@deckmonkey1459 3 года назад

From what I've read AGMs are not good for a trolling motor because they have a low specific energy that isn't meant for running moderate loads for a long time. Their life cycle is also severely shortened, I think by up to half, if you regularly discharge them below 50% and it's recommended to only discharge them 25-40% of their 20 hour rating. I would think a long day of trolling or using spot lock would easily discharge them that much. I've also seen that the charging current should be about 10% of the amp hour rating for flooded and up to 30% for AGM. That could be why his charger wasn't charging his AGM all the way because it might go to trickle mode before it's totally charged. As for Adam saying his boss doesn't know what he's talking about, that's why he bosses not fixes.

@jamiejuicenewton3349 3 года назад

Quad pro is what I have, 2018 boat as well

@markeustice618 3 года назад

Thanks for the info. I have the same setup an mine don’t fully charge.

@kmac1715 3 года назад

Genius chargers for dem AGM

@txman201 3 года назад

Yes, they work great. The newest generation has a waterproof sealed button to independently select the battery chemistry for each bank. They have even included a setting for Lithium (at the higher voltage required), so getting the latest NOCO Genius on-board charger provides future readiness for Lithium if wanted.

@STF68 3 года назад

Before I went Lithium TM batteries I ran a 3 bank Dual Pro for my 3 Wet cell TM bats and a Noco single bank for my AGM cranker. Ionics TM batteries now and put in their 4 bank. It charges the 3 Lithiums and the AGM cranker. And it weighs 11 pounds vs the 24 pound Dual pro.

@kennethmahl2391 3 года назад

My duel pro sportsman #1 output is programmed for agm . And 2/3/4 output is programed for lead battery’s lasted five years (deka agm 31 and lead acid group 27 deka)

@barrycelestine7809 3 года назад

Nice Lamar Gator hat!

@darrintouchet4063 3 года назад

Thanks for the informative video, I have a ‘19 520L with same battery configuration, had to use the jump start mode this past weekend and was trying to figure out why that happened when battery charger had em fully charged, or so I thought

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

just got off the phone with Pie, his is acting up as of today

@txman201 3 года назад

NOOO! An AGM battery is NOT a "gel" battery - Taylor was incorrect in saying that. I assure you. AGM = Absorbed Glass Mat. Very few people have an actual gel battery.

@txman201 3 года назад

NOOO! Wrong again when he says the "AGM charging issue" is because the charger is a "trickle charger." Not true. There are reasons for the issue, but that's not it.

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

They are both VRLA batteries and technically you are correct but for the general public calling any VRLA battery gel is acceptable, it was just a rabbit hole we didn't go down, good catch!

@txman201 3 года назад

@@KenSmithFishing Other than there are good chargers that will do multiple cell types, but don't include actual gel cell for the few people who have those.

@jasonguidry6449 3 года назад

@@KenSmithFishing agm & gel are totally different batteries in general, and just a FYI most motor manufacturers yamaha& mercury strongly advise against gel batteries as a main “ engine” battery

@bobbarnhill8557 3 года назад

Gel and AGM are not the same. AGM and lead acid batteries use the same charging profile. The Dual Pro Professional charger is one of the best on the market and is set up to charge AGM and Lead acid/flooded cell batteries. The Dual Pro charger can also be set up to charge Litium batteries as well. batteryguys.com/pages/the-differences-between-agm-gel-and-flooded-batteries

@dennysheraka1655 3 года назад

Great info

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

Glad it was helpful!

@bigc8018 3 года назад

Actual, real world, nuts and bolts information. We can't get enough of this.

@rogermoore3270 3 года назад

I’ve seen guys running a lithium paralleled with a agm or lead acid battery for the cranking/ graph batteries and seems to me there is no way both could be charging correctly with the different voltages. Great video

@txman201 3 года назад

Safety Clarification: You cannot just change the Ghost from 24V to 36V operation by simply pressing a button. You MUST ALSO move some series wiring to change between 24v and 36v setup

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

Walton on the Ghost you can, it's the press of a button

@txman201 3 года назад

@@KenSmithFishing Bet you $1000. I will email you the manual. I also have one ON MY BOAT sitting in the garage. I know for a fact. Don't forget the nature of my career. You MUST make a wiring change in the battery compartment to complement the voltage setting chosen on the foot pedal.

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

@@txman201 I don't think Ken meant if you have 3 batteries connected you should used it in 24v mode or Visa versa

@txman201 3 года назад

@@adamportner8102 In the video, the statement was that you can change the Ghost between 24v and 36v by pushing a button, not "push a button and move some wires". People will take it for what they hear, and there was no mention of removing a battery from the circuit. Even Ken's comment above is "on the Ghost you can, it's the press of a button" when it is not.

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

@@txman201 I'm just giving Ken the benefit of the doubt. More importantly is all the other inaccurate info in this video.

@txman201 3 года назад

Did you remove the QuadPro charging leads (or unplug the QuadPro AC power) from the AGM battery before connecting your alternative charger? You probably should as each charger is sensing the voltage present on the battery, and will be misled by the other connected charger's output.

@brians.4488 2 года назад

Ken can u ask those guys if the interstate batteries at Academy sports are different than "quality" ones that was sold with my boat?

@daviddawson5136 3 года назад

What do they suggest for guys running the same bad charger? Keep the battery once the charger is replaced or or does it need replacement?

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

David I think the battery will tell you

@mikeharris130 3 года назад

I have had 3 MinnKota PC chargers and everyone of them failed. All were replaced under warranty. Not a fan of MinnKota chargers. My BassCat has a Noco.

@jamiejuicenewton3349 3 года назад

So if I'm following this correctly the Pro Charging Systems Pro Series 4 bank/15A per bank charger my Phoenix came with may not be the best for my 31AGM. I had to replace this battery once through Interstate due low voltage. When I'd fire up the engine my graphs would turn on and off. Hmmmmm???? Thanks!

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

Go buy a duracell agm from Sam's club for less money. They are made by deka. Also the agm batteries from autozone look good for less money too. They are made from either exide or Johnson controls

@jamssosv 3 года назад

Ken, if you have a chance can you ask them what their thoughts are regarding the different alternator specs of the Yamaha SHO250 vs the Mercury PRO XS 250? I see they had Yamaha's in the shop so I assume they are familiar with both

@harriettecassick4384 2 года назад

@kendalllunsford775 3 года назад

Hey Ken..... 1 other qustion...... I have the same charger in my new boat as you do in your Ranger...... When it is NO plugged in.... I note the charger lights up and then off quickly..... Asssuming it is running some sort of test......... but feel like it may draw against the batteries while boat is in storage..... Does your do the same.... and do you know why....??? Thanks......

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

Unless your charger is faulty it will not draw power from your battery. Keep it plugged in 24/7 unless it's a lithium.

@johnthomas7123 3 года назад

Why not use AGM for your trolling batteries

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

Apparently they just don’t hold up as well under long term pull down

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

Sorry Ken Not true just the opposite

@deckmonkey1459 3 года назад

@@adamportner8102 I've read from Lifeline batteries that batteries required to run under moderate loads for a long time should have a high specific energy and AGMs have a low specific energy so they shouldn't be used for that purpose, their wording was "cannot be used". Sounds exactly like a trolling motor. They also said charging capacity reduces over time.

@jimmyh4239 3 года назад

AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) is not a Gel Battery. It is actually a Glass material that absorbs the acid in the cells, making it non spillable. Also the glass layers act as a cushion between the plates, which is great for durability against vibration and rough use. Gel is a totally different battery composition. I think this Dude your talking with wants to act like he knows more than he actually does.

@txman201 3 года назад

You are so right. The problem is certainly not that the DeltaVolt is a "trickle charger" with insufficient amps. The professional series DeltaVolt models (often in Ranger) are capable of 15A per bank in the unrestricted bulk charge step of the charging profile. The video has some decent content, but is at the same time riddled with inaccuracies and bad information (like changing Ghost between 24V and 36V operation with only the press of a button). There's a strong focus on one product replacement as a solution, but the reality is there are multiple trusted solutions.

@cjr4497 3 года назад

You are right. It was very tough to listen to him talk.

@deckmonkey1459 3 года назад

Is it really not a gel battery? Golly, it's all so confusing. People interchange things like that all the time like saying heat rises when they mean hot air, it is insignificant unless your writing your dissertation. As Ken showed, his charger is the problem because he hooked up another smart charger that had to charge the battery for over an hour. From what I've read it's not the bulk charge that's the problem but it must be lowering the amps once it completes the bulk stage. A flooded battery is supposed to be charged at 10% of it's amp hour rating and up to 30 percent for AGMs so if the charger doesn't put out enough amps for the AGM to complete the charge it obviously won't ever get fully charged. The reason he pushes the one charger is he has to warranty it just like the batteries. It might not be the only or best solution but if you don't have to deal with pissed off customers, especially if you lose them a tournament, you're going to stick with what works. There are a lot of inaccuracies even on battery sites. They say a pro of AGM is you can charge them faster with high amps then they say they like to be charged slow at low amps. They can be deeply discharged but they recommend only 25-45% discharge. They last twice as long, but if they are discharged below 50% their life is shortened around 50%. It's like talking to a used car salesman.

@txman201 3 года назад

@@deckmonkey1459 AGM truly isn't a gel battery. Gel batteries have a different chemistry makeup. In fact I've never seen a bass boat in 40 years that had a gel battery in it. Though your post rambles it includes yet more incorrect information. We have no clue what was happening when Ken connected a second charger because it appears he had both connected and running at the same time. Neither charger would expect the other one to be there and therefore the results are completely unpredictable. The charger in his boat could definitely provide sufficient amps to charge any 12 volt class battery. Those chargers supply up to 15 amps per bank, more than the vast majority of chargers produced. The issue, if there is one, concerns the finish voltage of the charger profile.

@douglasmoore2953 3 года назад

thanks for the video Ken! I often go a fews weeks at a time without using my boat, i used to leave the charger plugged up but now I don't think I will, should I top off the batteries before I unplug it for a few weeks or is it ok to leave them drained until I need to use it again and then charge them?

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

That’s what a lot of guys do and I unplugged mine when I left last Sunday for the first time

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

I disagree batteries lose charge when sitting and the degrade faster if not kept fully charged. Only exception is lithium.

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

I'm usually a big fan of your videos but sorry not this one. 1st right off in the beginning your guy says an agm battery is a gel battery. Aaaaaaahhhhhhhh IT IS NOT! AGM stands for absorbed glass mat. Which is fiberglass matting between the led then liquid acid is absorbed by the fiberglass making them a more stable platform than a liquid lead acid battery. All agm batteries are deep cycle by design whether it says it or not on the label. They are safer because they can not spill. You can cut one in half and nothing will come out. They will run submerged under water. I have run agm batteries for starting and my trolling motor for probably around 20 years. 1st boat had a duel pro charger and current boat has a pro mariner. Now the minnkota chargers are great but others are good too. Before I go into chargers, back to batteries. I don't use lead acid because they can spill and the movement of the acid degrades the life of the battery. I have seen lead acid batteries explode, melt and smoke. Plus they do not last as long. I'm looking at a new boat and probably going with lithium because they are supposed to last 3 times as long and give you double the power for the same ratings. Also much lighter.. So in the long run they claim they are not more expensive. So while buying a new boat I can package the initial investment into the loan. The Agm batteries I've owned I have averaged a 10 year life span and yes I keep them plugged in all the time. Boat chargers are designed to monitor batteries and turn off and on when your batteries lose power from sitting and they will lose power. The chargers have fuses. and your home has circuit breakers. Now lithium do not lose power when sitting so with lithium batteries you do want to unplug your charger because there is no need to keep them monitored. Leaving my agm batteries plugged in is why I believe I get longer life out of my batteries then some other people. Now even your guy contradicted himself when he said the minn kota charger had a separate setting for agm and gel so........ okay moving on. The power pole charge more expensive but the biggest benefits he didn't even mention. It will charge both your starting and trolling motor batteries from the gas engine. Also has a monitoring and adjustment app to load onto your phone and depth finder unit. It's expensive but I hear people get home and their batteries have 75% charge on them. So less time to recharge for the next day. It will be my next charger or should I say charging system.

@KenSmithFishing 3 года назад

Adam thanks for the detailed feedback, just FYI we talked off camera about the fact that an AGM is not really a gel, but most reference them as a gel (literally if you Google that it says most refer to AGM’s as Gel), but we knew we already had a long video and for our purposes it seems like a rabbit hole. As for the rest of it, yeah I’m sure many of us have different experiences than the Jone’s guys do, but in every case that is one man’s experience, or maybe one man and his 2-3 buddies, these guys see literally hundreds of boats, and batteries each year. AND they sell batteries, I don’t know the cost specifically but pretty sure an AGM is 2x the cost of a wet cell, so I trust them when they say I’ll have a better experience, generally, running 3 $180 trolling motor batteries vs 3 $340 AGM’s. And on the chargers, again they know that they are designed to stay plugged in, but they also have seen systems get fried because they were plugged in. Again one man’s individual experience vs guys who see hundreds of boats a year

@adamportner8102 3 года назад

@@KenSmithFishing you can buy a group 31 agm for $200 at autozone and Sam's club