A panel discussion is held, in conjunction with the 25th anniversary of the United Airlines flight 232 crash, at the Marina Inn in South Sioux City, Nebraska on Friday, July 18, 2014.
Nice to see Bill Records. I feel that he often gets overlooked in documentaries re UA232. Anyone know whatever happened to Dudley Dvorak? Agree that Denny is much sadly missed in this press conference, always seemed a true gentleman.
As far as I know Dudley is still living in Washington. I didn't think he had gone back to flying after the crash, but was surprised when Records mentioned flying with him later. I had heard he was teaching for United. I only knew Dudley through his wife, who I had seen a week before the crash. I hadn't seen her for years. I met her through my mom. One thing no one mentions is that Dudley was flying in the Air Force for 20+ years and had retired from the Air Force.
These people make me so proud to be from Iowa. I also can't believe it's been 25 years. My heart breaks that Denny couldn't be here for this important anniversary. I hate cancer so damn much! Funny how the morning of July 19, 1989 the people at the table plus Dudley and Denny didn't all know each other. Al and Bill were Seattle based and Denny was out of Chicago but I can't remember what I learned about Dudley other than it was his hand that was waving through a broken window of the crumpled ball of metal that was the cockpit. Had it not been for his hand, they might not have been found in time to rescue and save all 4 men. Denny said "they almost lost him" the night of the wreck when his wife and son Brian showed up the next day. It's amazing that anyone survived this.
As far as I know Dudley is still living in Washington. I didn't think he had gone back to flying after the crash, but was surprised when Records mentioned flying with him later. I had heard he was teaching for United. I only knew Dudley through his wife, who I had seen a week before the crash. I hadn't seen her for years. I met her through my mom. One thing no one mentions is that Dudley was flying in the Air Force for 20+ years and had retired from the Air Force.
eodmommy It's too bad Dudley didn't get more recognition than the mention of his name. The "Air Disasters" show about Flight 232 actually showed some interviews with Al, Bill, and Denny but that's it. The 3 of them returned to the cockpit but it took Denny much longer to recover. He said about 18 months later he was back in the captain's chair, leaving Portland for Hawaii. He got so emotional at times and my heart still breaks when he tears up and has to choke them back. He felt the weight of every last one of the 111 who perished, especially the kids. When the lady poked her finger in his chest and said to him that he had killed her 9 year old daughter, he took the blame for it. I LOVED what he told about speaking to a group of pilots in Chicago, and he was asked if it was ok to have a survivor in the audience and of course he was skeptical, but when they met, he said she was the perfect woman you would want for your grandmother. That made me go awwww. When they released their hug, he told her how sorry he was that he wasn't able to save her husband as well. She pushed him back and as he says, she said "BULL, God wanted him. He needed someone to give him permission to go on without all of the guilt he carried around with him. Al was lucky enough to have no recollection of the crash, but there was no mention of whether Bill or Dudley was aware of what happened. Since it was Dudley's hand that caught the rescuer's eyes, he must have been conscious for it as well. I really wish Denny would have lost conscienceness long enough to have no recollection of it but he felt it from the moment he set foot in that cockpit. I love the 1st person interview he does. Several have uploaded it. My husband and I have sat through the entire thing and we both cried with Denny. We are currently getting the Smithsonian channel on Directv and they show the "Air Disasters" shows there. Unfortunately, they are going to remove that same channel in a couple of months. They always take the good channels. Oh well, I hope you can forgive the book I just wrote because you are probably already as fully aware of everything I just wrote but you are probably also a sweetheart who will just roll with it and not chew my head off. Thank you for what you told me. If there is anything else that might be related to any of the crew or the flight, I would love to hear it or read it. Thanks eodmommy! Just out of curiosity, does you user name indicate that you have someone who is serving in our military and is an EOD guy? I'm a retired Army mom now that my son is out.
survivrs Dudley came across to me as a more reserved person. I am sure he probably joked around with other pilots and flight crews, but he struck me as someone who didn't want to be in the spotlight. I am sure he most likely had Survivors Guilt. I had only met him because he and his wife would come in to were I worked for lunch. I knew his wife better. The weird thing was I saw her a week before the crash and we hadn't seen each other in over five years, but we recognized each other and talked about life. I had just come back from San Antonio the previous week and was going to be moving there. She told me that Dudley retired from the Air Force and as was working for United, I told her I had just flown on United! My husband had proposed to me and he told the flight attendants who all had to see the ring during the flight and they bought me drinks. I was at work when I heard about the crash and when they said the flight crew was from Seattle and they listed a D. Dvorak as part of the flight crew. I was in shock and worried about his wife and children. Dvorak is not a common name!! I think Bill and Dudley where aware of what happen, because Bill mentions talking to Dudley about that they thought they lost Al. It is sad what happened to Denny with that little girl's mother. There was nothing he could have done to change the outcome. This crash was never suppose to happen, they said it was a billion to one chance. So they didn't have any protocols or instructions on what to do if this happened. There were metallurgic flaws with the fan blades which caused for the engine to explode and causing all the hydraulic fluid to drain out and a DC-10 relies on the hydraulics to fly. I always hated flying on a DC-10, just because of its checkered past! Anyways, they tried to simulate what happened in the simulator and they couldn't. This was old school, fly by the seat of your pants, flying experience of the flight crew. Thanks for the complement on being sweet, I try. I forgot one thing. I use to work in a fire department as an EMT and the base we were near used one of our major roads as an approach to land at the base. I don't know if I was jinxed during those years. I was at Ramstein in Germany when they had that horrific air show crash in 1988 and less then a year, this crash happened! About my user name. My husband was in Air Force EOD for 21 years.
eodmommy You have made me smile right now. I live in central Iowa, and in at least a 6 county area, Dvorak is a very common name. For the people I know with that last name, it is of Bohemian or Czechoslovakian origin, Czech for short. I wonder how many former Air Force pilots go to the Airlines when they decide to retire from the military. Denny also was in the A.F.That's a neat story about your engagement ring and getting drinks "on the house" or however they did that. Honestly, God or fate, that plane should have made a big crater in Iowa. I have a feeling that if Denny hadn't been there to help amid the chaos, it would have because with the catastrophic loss of hydraulics, it shouldn't have been possible to get anywhere near the airport, much less come so close to sticking that landing. Unfortunately that damn wing dropped down one last time and the engine dug down through 12" of asphalt/concrete plus another 6" of dirt under that runway which is what made the right wing rip off. It's been hinted that they did dump fuel but I haven't found any information to confirm that, but because it didn't cause a huge fire, it had to have much less fuel in it. When the plane lost the #3 engine, all of the power went to the left engine which helped the plane "cartwheel" which broke the tail section and the cockpit from the main fuselage. I wish I kept track of where I've picked up so many tidbits from that miraculous day of survival. In regards to the cause of it all, it was all caused by a defect in the titanium disc that held the 36 fan blades in place. They say that there were 2 impurities in the disc, oxygen and possibly nitrogen but I don't remember for sure what that 2nd one was. They concluded that it was a defect that was there from the time it was manufactured. Seventeen years and numerous flights prior to that one when the blades all turned into shrapnel, severing the hydraulic lines. You're right, it should have never happened. It was about 3 months later when the lady combining a field of corn came across that disc with some blades still in it, but the disc was broken into 2 pieces, and that was what helped them determine where the defect was. Denny said that when they reached out to "S.A.M." in San Francisco where the headquarters were, they explained what their problem was and they were met with silence, all because they thought they were talking to 4 dead men. When United started putting their senior pilots into the simulator, they went through 40 pilots before anyone even came within 10 or 20 miles of the airport. There was a guy who was giving Denny calls to see how his recovery was coming, and finally he started talking to him about what they did that let them actually get to the airport. As the guy told Denny the things they had done, Denny was telling them to do this or that, and finally someone made it to the airport but it still crashed. They had one chance and it had to be the best they could do and everything that happened was nothing short of a miracle. And when you see the diagram of where survivors were seated and where those who died were seated and there was no real rhyme or reason as to who lived and who died. Al had said in one of the interviews that he loved the DC-10 because it was an "old man's plane" because of how automated it was. Unfortunately on that day, there was nothing easy or simple. I can't believe how many things you and I sort of have in common, even outside of our knowledge or passion about this crash. My husband was a volunteer FF from 1983-2008 before he became too disabled to continue as an active FF. He also went through EMT training and was a volunteer EMT for 5 of those years. Now he goes to the station when he can to operate the radio, especially M-F when many can't get away from work to answer calls. It frees up one available man power. I had completely forgotten about that air show in Germany. I know that these pilots who are members of the Thunderbirds are insanely talented, but when something goes wrong, you just pray that the pilot can eject before they hit the ground. For the final part....phew, another book! I have enjoyed everything you told me. I don't know why I picked up on your username but I would have to say that I have a great amount of respect for anyone who's in EOD. My son was a Paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne out of Ft.Bragg, N.C. He was in Afghanistan from May 2011-Feb.2012. It took over 2 years to learn everything that I'm going to tell you. Luckily my daughter-in-law is great at sharing things with me. After he had been over in the sandbox for a month, on a night mission, he was the driver of an MRAP. If you aren't familiar with that, it's a 25 ton huge Tonka Truck that is (M)ine (R)esistant (A)mbush (P)rotected truck. Well, it's not quite as tough as it sounds. On that mission, the rear tire ran over an IED-or it didn't blow until the rear tire went over it. It flipped that giant onto it's roof like flipping a pancake. It left a crater in the ground where that truck could have been placed with room to spare. Both rear tires were blown off, leaving brake lines and other wires sticking out of the axle. The tires weighed 400 lbs each and the one was blown 300 meters and the other one 200 meters. The emergency exit at the back was jammed since the truck was squashed a bit from the flip. A diesel tank was ruptured and soaked the 5 guys inside. They finally managed to crawl out the window on the passenger side. My son and the Sergeant in the truck had to stay with the disabled truck until daylight when they returned to retrieve them. I don't know about the injuries the other 4 got, but my son got a TBI from it. EOD came along with them in the morning, and it was at Thanksgiving this last year that I found out from our daughter-in-law that had they tried to crawl out the driver's side window, there was another bomb planted right there and it would have more than likely killed them all. When he was back at their base, he had to get ahold of us to let us know what had happened and that he was "ok". We skyped with him and he held up his camera to the computer and showed us the picture of that bad boy that was now junk. I hadn't slept well prior to that, I had another 8 months of insomnia with a cellphone by my ear 24/7. He told us that prior to going on this mission, both he and his Sergeant had a bad feeling about it. He told me that for once, he stowed his gun where it was to go, the magazines were where they should be, his helmet and seat belt were on, and by the grace of God, my son made it back with no further injuries. Prior to that, during practice jumps back at Ft. Bragg, he had gotten 2 or 3 concussions due to various things that made a hard landing and something I didn't know until about a year ago was that due to the concussions and TBI, he was never going to be deployed again. I kept worrying about getting a call that he was going over there again but thankfully it never came. He was medically/honorably discharged this last August and he, his wife, and baby girl are settled back in the midwest where she was from and where they met on a blind date.
Hayes demonstrates some of the qualities which made him so well suited to the job: awareness of everything, and taking swift action to apply a solution.
Think the pilots know that in their hearts, Denny Fitch knows the DC10 better than anyone and got it down. Everyone did their own part, Denny flew the plane.
While it takes more than one person to make a team, I truly believe that when Denny sat down with those throttles, he was listening and feeling what the plane was doing and was compensating as they went along. He speaks about what the plane did in his first person interview, and with all that Al, Bill, and Dudley were trying to do, I think they finally realized that they were at the mercy of the plane, and Denny knew enough about the plane, that he was the reason they came as close to saving everyone that they could. Denny would never take the credit for it, that is evident in the things he has said in speeches. His survivor guilt was massive.
I remember seeing the footage over and over on TV from behind the fence when it hit the ground, truly horrific! I was only 9 and will never forget that.
I've always wondered if Captain Haynes & Denny Fitch ever had that beer together. It's possible they didn't because they may not have felt it was warranted given the crash. I would disagree. It wasn't the landing they had hoped for, but it was an impressive accomplishment nonetheless and many people survived because of their heroic actions. So I hope they were eventually able to.
I know this is 8 months too late... but if I remember correctly, in the book Flight 232, it does state that they did...it was years later, but they did.
I met Al through umpiring little league many years ago. He was a great mentor and a wonderful person. I am happy to see he still teaching and mentoring others through his talks about flight 232 and that awful, but miraculous day for those survivors.
He truly was. I'm betting you were an ump for several of my sisters' little league games. That's also where I met him and recognized him from the news. A true hero.
I was flying that route one year later in June 1990. I didn't knew at that time what happened there. That was better for me when i entered the DC 10 in Honolulu for Denver and later O'Hare. I got the information about flight 232 in 1997 when i bought a book at a shop at Frankfurt airport. It strucked me like a thunder. Since then i red every article about that and saw each and every clip on youtoube about flight 232. Captain Dennis Fitch and Captain Alfred Haynes are not among us anymore. I really think they did a fabulous job on board and they safed 172 lifes. Therefore my deepest respect gentlemen. Kind regards from Berlin.
Sound system really terrible. I am glad I recognized Capt. Haynes a few yrs after the accident and just asked to shake his hand, & congratulated him. He blushes easily.
I was serving in the 25th in oahu, Hawaii when this happened. There was Aloha FL. 243. 04-28-88 upper canopy loss one flight attendance and Aloha UA-811 02-24-89.
One of the nurses at my local VA facility is a survivor - her and her son. There's a certain energy that I can't put into words very well, but it radiates from her. What a blessing she is - one of the best nurses I've ever gotten treatment from. The fact that anyone survived is truly miraculous. God bless everyone that had a seat on that plane and all on the ground whose lives were changed forever.
From left: United Flight 232 crew: Flight attendant Susan White Callender, Capt. Al Haynes, First Officer Bill Records, Chief Fight Attendant Jan Brown.
It is not possible to hear the audience questions. Who is the lady with the pink shirt? If she's 28, how was she involved with something that happened in '89?
+Linshuo Zhang I feel it was the actions of Denny that saved so many lives. Without him it could have been a total loss. He was the only one "controlling" the plane. The pilots were attempting to control it but the only thing was #1 & #3 engine thrust, that's it!
+A D Indeed. But the on-duty crew, especially Al Haynes, did reacted promptly and used differential thrust in the first seconds. Frankly I am a little uncomfortable wth the living crew giving such limited credit to Captain Fitch, in an earlier speech Al Haynes even claimed that Denny was merely reflecting what he was doing to the yoke on the thrust. Also the CVR shows that Al Haynes commanded Denny to cut thrust when they finds out their -VS was too high, but Denny did the contrary, which is later proven to be correct. I don't recall this fatal command being mentioned by him in any form. Like NWA 85's relief captain, Al Haynes did contributed to the first reaction, but that was most of his credible deeds.
I've noticed that, too. I've wondered if maybe the documentaries have, perhaps, overstated Fitch's role and Haynes has been trying to put it in better perspective as complete crew effort. Certainly for the TV recreations, Fitch appears to be pivotal in the whole event--which I'm sure he was--but maybe no "more" pivotal than the whole crew working together. One interesting tidbit, in a lecture from 1991, captain Haynes says he was the one that asked Fitch to control the throttles, but in the 1996 Survival in Sky series, Fitch says it was him who asked if he could control the throttles. I haven't actually checked the CVR transcript to verify that, though. Regardless, we know that all four men working together saved 184 souls that day and they ALL deserve recognition for it.
From what I remember, in both "Leaving the Earth" and the ACI, Fitch claimed to have intention of controlling the throttles once he have noticed their total hydraulic failure, but that was after he have volunteered to go back into the cabin and observed both inbound ailerons to be floating upward, and after his return Haynes simply said "take the throttles". it has been therefore unclear whether who have had this thought in the first place, but from sources I have viewed Fitch have had this thought, and Haynes have made the order. From the NTSB case report AAR-90/06, Haynes first noticed the bank tendency and applied asymmetric thrust seconds after the explosion, then after the aforementioned aileron inspection, Fitch has been the control "actuator" for the reaming flight. The dispute, I believe, lies with a claim by Haynes that Fitch has been [merely] duplicating their movements on the yoke, whereas it has been unclear yet recognizable that Fitch claimed [primary] autonomy for his specific actions on the thrust levers. I however believe they are not contradictory: the crew have been in consensus all the way (until Fitch advanced the throttles to full upon impact to reduce sink rate, when Haynes asked him to cut them), so it has been indistinguishable from whose decisions have the control movements have come, but again there is no difference in actuation. It might be more fair to say that Fitch has been actuating their collective ideas, during which, of course, his own have been the most effective.
I don't know how you can say that 'with respect' - why compare the two incidents? They were both incredible bits of airmanship, in two very different situations.
Denny was the most important part. Of course, if Al was an arrogant/narcissistic man, they would have crashed l because no one knew what to do until denny came in to help.
It's like they slap those who lost there loved ones in the face over and over again..let it go people your alive and many are dead go home and throw a party
Its not a slap in the face for the families who live this tragedy each year without their loved ones. The survivors and crew are remembering the lives of those who lost their lives for their families member who were left behind without their loved ones. Its the entire reason for a memorial. To find ways to deal with the tragedy and accept it. Not bury it. This conference is to talk about what happened so that it never happens again- to get laws changed and to advance research.
