I don't understand how so many men just stayed through the "conference " and weren't bothered by anything. What a shame. The Holy Spirit must be horribly grieved.
I am a 65 year old woman who left my church due to a serious betrayal by our pastor. I have been having a hard time trusting as a result. I am a devout, born again, evangelical Christian who has been horrified by what I see around me in the Christian community. From toxic politics, to narcissistic behavior, to sexual abuse, and on and on. My hope is that the light that is now shining on this unfortunate episode and other episodes will bring change. We do, indeed, need a new revival. We need to get back to spreading the truth of the Gospel first and foremost. We need to get back to displaying empathy and love towards our neighbors and each other. We also need to get back to lovingly and truthfully witnessing to non-believers, rather than repelling non-believers. Thank you for your excellent post.
Me too. I left the church around 1995 when i began witnessing the church becoming mans possession. I too went through something similar and had hoped to see my pastor be obediant to the word and call out sinful backstabbing behavior but it involved his family and he chose to honor his family over the word. It was horrible and sad to watch peopke drop like flies even kicked out of church to hide sin. Things like SA. i havent found a church yet where the leadership honestly lets go of control and let God have true control. Ive watched the word of God twisted like what John did for control and grossly misued. Leaders who twist and pervert the gospel to manipulate, and control is downright demonic. Its witch craft actually. So when i see this i cant be apart of it. I hope one day i can find a church like a real deal God honoring church.
It's judgment and exposure. Unfortunately it appears you were close (@cqbarnieify) to this "blast of sifting burning" (Is.4;4)! (Pardon my much text, but I could write a book). I was saved at the very end of the Jesus movement as a teen. As well as many others, I knew this youth pastor (I was one too...1980's). This guy was so gifted and overshadowed by the Lord's presence.....he led a not so normal but highly fruitful youth ministry in a very large church.....thousands of youth pastors and youngins adored him.....(he had global conferences). After his church was mangled by these false revivals in the 90's....he left no doubt affected by a prosperous but tainted ministry. He moved to another large city and built a megachurch, much bigger than the one he left....he preached above all the "prosperity message",much to the grief of the Holy Spirit. In and around 2008-09, he was approached by a saint that told him "God would take his life if he did not cease his prosperity message (within 1 year)"....he did not! He died in 2010 (he was 59). His premier minister on staff carried the "prosperity message" for a conference and several saints prophesied at registration "for all ministers attending this conference to repent"....the head minister died 3 days later on his 29th wedding anniversary and his son died 9 months later on his 29th birthday (his son was conceived on the ministers honeymoon)....it's real, it's a fact, it happened and could easily be verified in 15 minutes research on the Web!
All John had to do was show a once of humility instead of the Spirit of Pride leading him to do this ridiculous callout. And John says he ran this decision by many leaders? No spirit filled believer would have signed off on this. But he lied about so much already, so who knows if he even ran it by leaders…
You would have to be in this church, know John Lindell, his Sons, and understand the truth of the matter, some mistakes MADE, but do your homework on The Rise and Fall of Mars hill.
@@wallylankford2365 not sure who you are addressing but as for me, I already know about MD and MH incident. I’ve actually never even been an MD fan and that did not help. However, he was 100% correct at this men’s conference and it needed to be addressed publicly just as he did! Why? Because a certain percentage of those men are probably struggling with homosexuality in today's world and a larger percentage are probably struggling with pornography, which includes homosexuality much of the time and that is probably the number one reason they are there - to get help and get set free! How confusing and disappointing! If you’re going to put a stripper on a pole, swollowing a sword, no less, in a Christian men’s retreat, it needs to be addressed publicly in front of those same men! Mark was right in the first place but then he got manipulated back down. It is absolutely sickening how John Lindell used scripture to gain power just like the IHOP pastor Mike Bickle does and has been doing for decades! People are in a stupor under these master manipulators, and they need to wake up! Stay far away from the NAR (New Apastolic Reformation) types as they manipulate that because they are anointed, they are untouchable! This is exactly what Mike Lindell did and said! As for the seasoned believers in that audience, I am stunned, sickened, and saddened they didn’t all get up and walk out when that man started his entertainment.
@@wallylankford2365 I was there for week of power with Bill Johnson. And I have no doubt he and his sons are great and have done great things, but that doesn’t change anything about the situation. It’s ok to admit a pastor made a mistake. That’s the problem here, he is refusing to show any humility. This whole situation could have ended if John simply humbled himself. What he did with this public display, revealing private texts, lying about the performer (he doesn’t have two kids and is not a born again believer), and dragging Mark thru the mud, was not at all the Holy Spirit. Church members are putting John above the authority of the Holy Spirit if they agree with what he did, bc the Holy Spirit absolutely does not agree with it. You shouldn’t just agree with anything ur pastor does if it contradicts the Holy Spirit.
The problem I have with this recounting is that we have not seen the texts. We also have not heard the conversation between the son and Mark Driscoll. Lindell is stating his interpretation of the conversation so this is second hand. For all we know, his own son could disagree with his father’s interpretation of the conversation. Discussing this like we know the facts is unfair as Driscoll is silent on the matter. I was horrified by Lindell trying to isolate Driscoll from Christian fellowship from the pulpit. I don’t know him but I do know the control and isolate moves. Until Driscoll states his side of the story, we can’t make any judgement except what we first hand saw publicly. I think Driscoll behaved in a Godly manner. Lindell has made a terrible impression on me.
For a long time (years) I have been saying what Hal has said. It put a target on my back. Even recently I faced a huge challenge because of some narcissistic leaders. I endured their mess for almost 4 years hoping for change. But things went from bad to worse. It came time to shake off the dust and move forward. It was painful... but Jesus is still Lord in my life.
Pastor, the end of this video was the best part of this video. Completely agree with your summation of these events and what the church needs now. You are right on target. I really appreciate how seriously you took this topic, and your desire to treat it with care. You have a beautiful heart for the church, and I am right there with you. This whole thing broke my heart because I wish to see men in the best light, especially men of God. Revival is just what we need, and I really love how you point out that the prayers of the people are the starting point for this.
Unfortunately the Church has little by little let the world in to our worship. Lights, smoke, concert setting music , etc. I understand stand we want to reach to new generation but at what cost? The Church is not built to entertain but to preach the Gospel. If people need to be entertained then they are not there for the reason for which the body of Christ was meant to assemble for.
John Lindell is twisting scripture to suit his ego. I think Mark was convinced by John during the conference to come back out and seek reconciliation, only to hear John say on stage that we cannot criticize him because he is “anointed by God”. Then Mark learned more information afterwards and changed his mind. Mark is right but we should find a way to unity. If Mark was led by the Holy Spirit to call out the Jezebel spirit then going back on that is sinning against the Spirit. It seemed like he didn’t plan to say that- he got down on his knee and spoke. In my opinion the one that needs to repent is John Lindell.
I just started listening to Mark Driscoll's podcast and while I don't agree with everything he says his teachings have been a blessing to me. When this event came up on my social media I walked in a broken hearted fog the entire day and have struggled to make sense of it. After listening to Pastor Hal, for the first time mind you, I'm officially done with it and putting it to bed. Your take was sound, biblical, and nearly brought me to tears. As followers of Christ we cannot allow these moguls of ministry to cloud our judgement and faith in the rock on whom that faith is founded. Thank you for this Pastor Hal. This blessed my day,
Amen Pastor! Well spoken and direct to the heart of what is happening everywhere across America. Profound wisdom in pointing people to recognize the One Who builds versus the desires of men seeking fame, prestige and wealth. A house divided cannot stand and now more than ever we need to stand for Christ not man. I was practically born in a church pew and have a deep love for The Church. My heart is breaking for the mockery that fills pulpits. The deception is strong and expanding every day. The warning is plain for all to see in Jesus’ words. Prayer is a mighty weapon against the enemy. Pray everyone! Pray!
Driscoll called it outright. watching it I was in shock... what pastor would do that, have a guy shirtless swallowing a sword, which should not be encouraged, and climb a pole? Screaming music rock music and a tank... I can't see that a man would walk away from the conference feeling ready to serve... just enticed. It was a dumb thing to do... even I know it was evil. If Christ can't lure you a tank, shirtless man, screaming rock music, huge motorcycle on the screen will not draw all men to Christ... not the conference.
This whole situation is very sad. We’ve been AG for many years at “ mega churches “ in several cities due to my job moving us around. The hubris and narcissistic tendencies of some of the pastors is so unfortunate and not how it should be.
You preachers are so quick to condem but I understand over 500 decissions were made for Christ in this meeting. How many are made in your church. P.s. you never watched the whole meeting so shame on you. It was designed to draw unsaved in you took one little event an judged the whole event. 2:14
@howardsutton826 you won't be relevant to the lost until you choose holiness. It isn't our worldliness that attracts the lost, it's our contrast to darkness that draws the lost.
@@AE-pv9vc the world is a much different place then when Jesus walked the earth. Drugs, wokeness, computers, kids know it all now there is no more mystery. Holiness yes but that my friend is not an instant change it takes much effort to de program. So we must meet in the middle an by the way that was not a church service. When's the last time you had a comedy show at your church. Get a life an get off your perfect judgement of others it divides the body
Out of all the RU-vidrs commenting on this issue your words are the most reasonable and true. Others are sensationalizing the situation, concentrating on the wrong issues, and not seeing the big picture as you have shared. And that both sides need to re-examine themselves.
I feel your pain as a pastor’s wife and Christ follower. My husband has dedicated his life to the church as it is God’s vehicle to reach the world for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We have cried many tears and agree that we need awakening and revival inside the church. We are blessed with a wonderful church and leadership that points people to Jesus. Yet everyday, we have to redirect people from fear and a cultural religion that bares little resemblance to Jesus.
There was no rambling on your part. Spot on. I remember a scene in the movie Gladiator . Where the Gladiator yells to the crowd about there desire to watch the horrific destruction of lives in the arena. He wins a battle with another gladiator. The emporer gives him the thumbs down to end the life of the defeated gladiator, But the gladiator who won the battle over the other spares the life of the other defeated gladiator. Its time to end the games in the church. Stop the Arena shenanigans and have a true come to Jesus monumental moment that breaths life into us for eternity.
I think I’d you go and watch the video that Pastor Driscoll you’ll see only righteous anger that angered the sinners in the church. I agree he should have walked and continued to call out the sin
Mark did not do anything wrong. I don’t think he realized his friend was going to humiliate himself and be so narcissistic. So he got back on stage and apologized and tried to salvage his friend’s reputation. The more that Pastor John talked, the more obvious it was that he was narcissistic and just kept on going on and on and showing how arrogant and inappropriate he was and using scripture to deflect and manipulate. Once Pastor John showed his true colors, I don’t think Mark could stand behind him anymore. And so Mark stood up for what was right.
Both of these pastors Lindell and Driscoll are a part of the NAR New Apostolic Reformation. They believe that the christian church is going to take over the world governments and bring peace and security and fix all of the problems. Where is that in the bible? The opposite is happening, this world is falling apart for. We see the building of the Beast Antichrist system.
The Word of God is not the emphasis in most churches. We do need an awakening for sure! We are living in perilous times! God is still on His throne. The prosperity gospel and word of faith have done great damage. You did a great job pastor! May God bless you, your family and all believers and non believers! We all need Him and only Him, the Lover of our souls.
Thank you for sharing your perspective PH. How we treat “the least of these” is important. Pastors who “say” and “do” good need to be more properly held accountable for those they have hurt.
13:50 ...when man builds it.... The scripture Psalm 127:1 Unless the LORD build the house, they labor in vain that build it. This came to my mind right away. There is a man who was traveling all over the USA during the pandemic, preaching the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah who was crucified, died, buried but rose again. He would preach to sinners on the street everywhere and led people to repentance and water baptism to Christ. I may not agree with everything he says, but he is the busiest preacher of the Gospel out in the marketplace. He was falsely accused and placed in jail in Florida, for over 400 days, with literally no evidence of a crime. You know you are doing something right, when they want to stop you from preaching about Jesus.
It breaks my heart to know that the pastor did not protect that young man. He put him back into a portion of the life he has been saved from. He did not protect that young man’s heart! That makes me angry!
I scrolled the performer’s Instagram. It may be a promotional account; its content is mostly highly provocative selfies of the performer and a few images from performance locations. I am not certain the performer is spiritually mature. And this man is supposed to be a 10 year Christian. He is not a kid. That said, the responsibility lies with the church, the event coordinator, and the pastor. It was their job to vet the speakers and performers. The one question is whether Driscoll knew what the performance would be and if so when he knew. If he knew in advance, an argument could be made that he didn’t raise an objection in advance because it would sync nicely with his book and current ministry focus. That is the only question left open on Driscoll’s side.
This is a Galatians 2:11-14, Paul calling out Peter event- not a Matthew issue, go to someone privately. If John Lindell says Mark should have come to him in private as in Matthew, then is he admitting what he did was sinful and needed private confrontation? And he is just upset that he got embarrassed publicly? Though what he did was public? Our prayers need to be for the new Christian ( by report) who was asked to do the pole performance- he should have never been asked to do that. Prayers for him that he is not harmed by being ill used by the church.
You've spent a lot of time over analyzing . The point is that the pastor of that Church had lewd and ungodly entertainment at an event meant to teach men how to follow Jesus with all their heart . John Lindell was very wrong . Mark Driscoll was invited to speak on Elijah and the Jezebel spirit . And he gave his opinion about the profane performance . That's exactly what godly men should do ! Stand against ungodliness . Too much criticism of the man who criticized rather than the actual event that deserved it ! What a shame to keep spinning this ! That's just what the devil wants to happen so the world will mock Christians
Thank you for your humble and loving assessment. This whole episode of the ungodly charade grieved me and concerned me deeply. I know that Jesus was grieved.
I will never understand the smoke machines in church!! I would always ask my husband, “so Jesus needs smoke machines to draw men to Him?” It doesn’t make sense.
The pastor should step down and all his staff. It really has nothing to do with Mark. He just had the guts to call out sin. All the men should have walked out.
Brother i about lost it when i seen you tear up. I totally feel your pain. I miss church. Havent been apart of it in years. Sadly this stuff is more common than you realize. Its not just the mega churches. Its been every church ive visited since 1995 when i left it
I believe that you do not have the whole story about Mars Hill church and I also believe the rest of the men attending the conference should have gotten up and walked out too!
Had a friend who worked with promise keepers. Turns out Bill McCarthy was emotionally abusing his wife at home. She confronted him a year or two before she died . . . .
Mark humbly left the stage and was leaving the conference altogether. He was headed to the airport. However, the crowd was about to riot forcing John to chase down Mark and begged him to return to restore peace where John caused chaos. Mark subsequently heard from his research team that the performer was indeed a LGBT stripper. Mark knows from experience how this will implode JRC altogether. Mark misjudged in trying to help the son that was already schedule to take over JRC as John had already announced his retirement.
That’s a new piece of information-Lindell had announced his retirement? So was Driscoll’s exhortation to David Lindell predicated on this understanding?
Lindell lied the performer is not born again has recently been practicing Buddhism and he is not a father. He was not saved except as the stripper claims as to be baptized at birth in an Orthodox Church in Russia. This man should never had been at a men’s conference. Driscoll was right on this point. I don’t know him well. But at least he was a man to speak up.
Has anybody read the 2005 book called Mega Shift by James Rutz? I’m about half way through and am curious if anyone else out there has read it…anyway, I believe we’re headed into the direction that this author spoke about. It is inspiring and has me contemplating my own future with regard to how we do church…
As I see it, Mark Driscoll was not wrong in what he said. We could argue that it could have been handled more gently but that opening show needed to be called out. There are a lot of people struggling with sexual issues and masculine roles. Opening up a men's conference and normalizing behavior that is, at the very least, suggestive of sin was a really bad choice. It seems like John Lindell needs to pray to God about what he's doing within his church and with these gatherings. It is clear to me that he did not do that when planning this conference. The enemy clearly used sin and the weaknesses of these men to destroy what could have been an incredible Spirit-filled encounter.
Narcissist control in church leader ownership for a long time never addresses for fear or reprisal. No one what rejection calling out a things when the annointed ticket is used. 1 john 2.20 Holy Spirit witnesses the truths and reveals evil. All are accountable humility, starting with listening, not defending.
Seeking "Revival" is old. We have been there and done that. It created a "Church Culture" of men and women who look to build their church and their kingdom. Our Father is doing a new thing now. He is calling His children to RELATIONSHIP. When we as believers (not everyone is) Heed the calling of the Holy Spirit to enter our secret place and learn of Him, then when we come together in fellowship our Father will be Glorified. Church culture is self centered and dead. Jesus set us free from denominational bondage so we may enter into His presence and learn of Him and His Character. Holy Spirit is in us and we can and will be used in the world, at work, at the store, on the streets at His will and our obedience, if we seek Him in our secret place. He is doing this now, I live this and I do not "belong" to a Church. Our Father is waking up His people. Please don't miss this because you are looking for something old! Let's pray for each other to be enlightened to the truth and hope of what the Father has for our lives to Glorify Him and bring the lost to Jesus so as to be SET FREE! ❤️
I ended up leaving my childhood Church because of money manipulation and secret society members being elected as Elders, we now have a home study and I have leaned more than I ever did sitting 30yrs under organizer religion. So my thoughts on this fiasco is what is the cost to the Kingdom?
I think the REAL QUESTION the church itself must see is WHAT IS GOD DOING? I believe this revelation of the deterioration is a precursor to a HUGE REVIVAL I believe God is cleaning house. Think about Jesus entering the temple and casting down all the money changers! This is what the Lord is showing me He is doing. GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED! Check your hearts, are your Oil jars full? Are you ready to meet our King when He returns?? Remember Who is in control and praise HIM!!! 💜🙌🏻💜
Please tell me you have NOW seen the entertainer’s video in his own words disputing and explaining that he is NOT a Christian and that he only was baptized into the Orthodox faith as a baby. This makes a difference and lends further light to several parts of this scenario.
Hence Paul’s message ABoUt being SALT & LIGHT. America’s current/past “body of Christ” Has/IS Losing her SALTINESS. What does Matthew ch 5:13 on….. CLEARLY say about what happens to SALT that loses its SALTINESS. ?
Why do you think he stayed? Could be financial gain for the whole lot. Our pastor used to warn us that pastors have to watch out for the three G’s. Girls, Gold , and Glory. Just pick the one that fits. It has nothing to do with taking up your cross and following Jesus. Christianity has been found wanting in America
I think he stayed because he didn’t want to lose a friend and gain another enemy after his past. There might be an element where you are right but ultimately I don’t think he was purposely trying to create an enemy.
Repentance has to start at the pulpit. As the church goes, so goes the country. Can't mix the True Gospel with psychology either. Read the word of God!
Leave it alone ! God will deal with these two pastors they are both in strife and tumult with each other ! This stuff is not good 2 Corinthians 12 verses 19 thru 21 is the condition of our churches ! God is shaking the church it will be without spot or wrinkle before his return ! I reiterate he does not need the help of the arm of the flesh amen I include myself in what I say !
No, you are not having a revival or an awakening, with regards to that, usurping went on and vainglory and lust just got hold because of the usurping, but also brought forth the false and deception. Lord Jesus Christ is doing something else, whether you like it or not. It's for the good of all. Lord Jesus Christ is on both sides of the Pastors as they come into what Lord Jesus Christ has allowed and brought forth from old, one is on the side of and for Humanity, the other one is for the Church, the body of Christ, along with the religious, spiritual and wisdom etc.... Both sides are in truth and error, both are being corrected and both need to grow up and mature and growing up is painful and hard at times. James 3:17 is needed, along with Listening to God. But at present, you as a whole are not listening, if you were to listen and right with God and in your faith and life, you would know, but you as a whole have been ignoring and doing your own thing and it is bringing forth cults among other things. Everyone at present, needs to be listening. James 3:17 is the authority of the Just Judge is using. Also Lord Jesus Christ has sent another into reprobation and to deal with the movement people and also those that have gone into mastery as well as things like Pole Dancing....because it is being reformed and being turned into something else, which is then redemption. It takes enormous amount of strength, skill and discipline, things that USA church and christians lack......however it was too soon for that person to be performing.....he needs to be in correction and being dealt with on his insides. The warnings went out repeatedly, don't ignore them, or the ones that come forth to say don't do something, you just don't do it, you listen. The question being asked of you and left for you to consider is Can you be unbias, without prejudice, hypocrisy and impartial, not taking sides?
The absolutely horrific judgment to include an act like this is unbelievable. Optics alone, it should have not be included. It sounds like this particular church uses entertainment to a fault to draw its congregation within its doors. Just seems like the wrong message to me. It is not necessary and the examples you shared at the beginning are evidence of that.
I agree with Everything you mentioned. The only thing is, I believe describing something accurate is important. I saw the video of the performance, the performer unzipped his vest and climbed all the way up the pole and slid down it fast with no hands with a sword in his mouth and stopped right at the bottom. It was impressive but very true as unnecessary for a church conference. I pray they focus more on God’s glory and strength, and not man’s strength. 🤍
Say no more. If John is the one that allowed the Bible to be kicked like a football. No words if a pastor would allow that he would do anything. What happened at the men's conference was absolutely wrong. Mark was correct.
