Time Spiral and Tolarian Academy were among the first cards spoiled. As a warning, Zvi Mowshowitz contacted WotC with a deck that used those cards along with Prosperity to combo off unreasonably quickly. WotC's response? "There's an Urza's Saga card you might want to use instead of Prosperity."
@jameskuhns3544 Naw when this was getting designed they were still compensating for the Dark, Ice Age, Homelands and Alliances being seen as very weak. When you started playing in Ice Age the first thing established players told me was ignore that and buy revised dual etc... the game was also at a risk of dying from being dull do to the lack of power
Notably, MaRo stated that Urza's block is the only time all of R&D was yelled at by their boss: "Urza's Saga is the only time in the eight years that I've been working at Wizards that R&D as an entirity got pulled into the president's office and was yelled at. I'm not going to try and explain what happened as I'm not completely sure myself. The important part was that R&D learned a valuable lesson. Design is meaningless without good development. Urza's Saga had a lot of cool ideas. But all that was overshadowed by the fact that games lasted an average of a turn and a half."
You guys missed the key interaction from the guide book. The Fountain of Youth and Tolarian Academy combo offsets your opponents Shivan Gorge that appears in EVERY sly deck in the world. 😂
fun fact, there's a manga set in this time period: "destroy all humanity, they can't be regenerated". it follows a bunch of teenagers competing in mtg tournaments during tempest-urza's standard. it's a lot of fun!
@@excalipoorofficial English release is confirmed for winter of this year, in the meanwhile there are fan translations online if you don't mind piracy
Shivan Gorge was the first rare I opened in this set. I was bummed out, and didn't even know about the rest of the cycle at the time - that would have made me positively livid.
I wonder if when they get to MH1 if they will show the clips of him pleading with play they should stop demanding cards printed directly into Modern because it would forever radically change the format and the majority of players said stuff like "WotC treating Modern players like little kids while Legacy players get their format designed cards"😂
Urza's Saga is one of the most relevant sets to how I play Magic in 2024. It embraces very short-sighted and dubious design philosophies, but it has brought so much texture and passion into my favorite formats. Cedric's grade does feel right, even though it logically doesn't make sense.
I actually played in a tournament with those pre con decks when i was like 10 years old i chose the worship deck and got 2nd place because i went against the mirror in the finals and i stopped have fun and didn’t want to play anymore so i let my worship die and killed myself.
I think the big reason Urza's Saga is "the artifact block" is simply due to Tolarian Academy. There's really not that many broken artifacts in the block--3 or 4 maybe? There's some good ones too, like Smokestack, but it's not that many. But when you think of the set, the first card that jumps into your head is Tolarian Academy, without any hesitation. That's why you immediately jump to artifacts, because the set has the most broken land ever printed in it. (Most of the artifacts that powered the Academy deck were from other sets: Lotus Petal from Tempest, Mox Diamond from Stronghold, Mana Vault and Urza's Bauble from 5th Edition.)
Aa an avid listener of your podcast version from a few years ago, I cannot tell you how excited I am that we have finally arrived here. I started playing when this set came out in 1998 at age 12, and it still is my favourite set of all time.
Somewhere Stalking Stones is crying at the multiple mentions of creature lands while it gets overlooked. It's a little different as a land that becomes a creature, but still
My first magic purchase: Urza's Saga Tournament Pack, with rares "Gamble" "Morphling" and "Reprocess." Without delay, I built a 60 card 5-color soup deck that failed to function on even the most basic level. I was hooked on MTG from that point on...
When you said back to basics for best hoser, i had an actual moment where i swore because that card is busted and brutal, and Patrick wasn't kidding when he said that even the 50th best card in the set is still bonkers
I played Type II (Standard) from Mirage through Mirrodin before taking a big break. Urza's Saga was indeed busted. Combo winter was real and just turbocharged everything. Oh, and from what i remember about playing limited I can remember that the BEST deck to be in was W/B pestilence hands down. Pestilence was a COMMON! Those were some days.
Saga is still my absolute favorite set of all time. From the bomb rares down to the fun cool art enchant creatures, this set was just perfection. It made us see the game in a whole new way and showed the community how far Wizards could push the power level. I would not still be playing this game 26 years later if this important stepping stone had not been along the path.
I got into Magic around 2005, and one thing I saw about this set in particular was the volume of cards like Glorious Anthem, Rewind, Persecute, Wildfire, Greater Good and so on that were distinctly present throughout Kami/Rav era standard via the 9th ED core set. I'd like to give a particular shoutout to the role Rewind in particular played for blue control decks in the immediate aftermath of Time Spiral (the set) being printed, and the arrival of a monstrous little engine called Mystical Teachings... IYKYK.
I got into Magic during Masques block, but you could still get Urza's block products. Sadly never opened any of the truly insane cards, but I still have so many fond memories of these cards.
It's astounding going through this episode and the card file and realizing how many Legacy decks would not exist without Urza's Saga. Elves? Maybe around, but a lot worse without Cradle. Lands? So much worse without Exploration that I wonder if anyone even thinks to put those cards together. Enchantress? Enchantress' Presence is only in Onslaught after Argothian here, and the deck can't exist without both. High Tide? Time Spiral and Turnabout are essential. Sneak and Show? I mean, the name says it all. And that's not even looking into the half a dozen other cards that are format-defining, even if not deck-defining. Or the three banned ones. Truly a set of all time. Edit: AND GOBLINS jfc
1:09:00 - Here is, I believe, the complete list of cards that would have made Rune of Protection: Lands relevant when it was released: - Shivan Gorge - Mishra's Factory and Stalking Stones - Anything that can turn lands into creatures: Balduvian Conjurer, Mishra's Groundbreaker, Quirion Druid, Verdant Touch, Living Lands, Kormus Bell, Living Plane, Thelonite Druid, and Nature's Revolt - Vintage powerhouse Sorrow's Path (It can also prevent damage from painlands, but since the rune costs mana to use this is pointless) 5 of these cards were legal in Standard at the time. Fortunately, the card has cycling, so if your opponent isn't playing one of these 13 cards you can cycle it away.
Pouncing Jaguar is a favorite of mine and my friends because waaaay back in the day, like 2010 or so, we were doing a cube draft at the store and gaslight a friend into picking Pouncing Jaguar over Sol Ring. "2/2 for 2 with just echo? What a beating!". We also talked a different friend into first picking Rishaden Port when we were doing a multiplayer FFA cube draft once time.
I appreciate more card discussion at the expense of lore, which I can always look up if I care to. 2:02:35 Not exploring the design space of cycling is good, the opposite of borrowing from the future. They said, "It's interesting enough that you can play situational cards or high-cost cards for their option value -- we can leave design space like trigger-on-cycle and cycle-from-play for future sets."
My Tolarian Academy story is this. One night I sat down for a casual commander night with like six other people or something, and one guy who joined late and was someone’s friend said at the Rule 0 conversation “Hey, I have a banned card, can I play it?” “Depending on what it is,” I say. His deck has no sleeves and he pulls out Tolarian Academy, and I’m like “No, that thing is an island.” Luckily he’s pretty chill and understanding and agrees. He ends up playing it turn two, and his deck, it turns out, apparently really didn’t run a lot of artifacts, because for most of the game if we had played Academy as itself, it would have tapped for 0. Wild stuff
I'm still several episodes behind (taking my time to enjoy them) but just wanted to comment I can't wait to see this one. The history of it being such an overpowered set, can't wait to watch in the future. I figured the runtime would be long no doubt lol.
1:51:00 processor was recently in brothers war limited and was just meh, like Patrick said creatures now are just so much better such that paying 8 mana and a bunch of life to get your first creature out of it just isn’t very good anymore even if subsequent creatures only cost 4 mana and 0 cards. Was amazing back when draft was a lot slower though
How deep is this card file that cards like Serra Avatar, Humble, Arcane Laboratory, Confiscate, Annul, Telepathy, Priest of Gix (in the set with the rebate mechanic!), Bedlam, Falter, Rain of Salt, Blanchwood Armor, Copper Gnomes, Metrognome, or Temporal Aperture - all of them iconic, aspirational, or mechanically interesting designs - aren't mentioned in this multi-hour video, even in passing? You could talk for a minute or two about each of those cards.
Cedric rates sets based on how he feels (and felt at the time, when applicable) about the cards themselves. Patrick rates sets based on how the set fits within Magic as a game, in terms of how it was designed and how it plays by itself and with prior and subsequent sets. It's a nice dynamic. Cedric's ratings will trend towards being higher for this reason, particularly for the 'busted' sets like this, he shouldn't be swayed by Patrick's critiques, both perspectives are useful.
Loved this set when I was 11, it’s really cool to see the steps it took in design but also how much has been done since then. RIP to the Tolarian Academy I straight up lost and the Gaea’s Cradle I put through the washing machine in the pocket of some cargo shorts (in a deck with 4 Cradle Guards, of course)
It's cool to learn that this set used to be called Urza's Odyssey because it makes a lot of sense with how the cards are flavored. Every color's cards almost exclusively take place in one location, shown off in the rare land of the cycle, and you can follow Urza's journey through each location, e.g. he gets Corrupt-ed in Phyrexia and has to flee to Serra's realm where he heals for five years (as stated on Sanctum Custodian). The lore and flavor are really good in this set and it's too bad that people immediately associate Saga with broken stuff. Not that it's truly unfair or anything.
My first real set, but I was starting to play competitevely after MM so this was a year of fhe unlimited time and endless joy. I drowned in the lore, deck construction, and for me the opening of imagination.
So, they introduce the book as being written by the editor of the Duelist; then they spend the rest of the time acting like R&D wrote the card write-ups in the book...
While their presentation is misleading, The Duelist was an official publication of WotC -- this would be analogous to an article going up on the official Magic website.
Just got into this channel via Bosh, watched your Unglued episode and now jumping into this one. Probably would have been better pacing to watch all the previous episodes first before getting to this one but- I have no self control :p
Good review. I got out of Magic right before this hit. In many ways I wish I had held on for this block, as I filled it in just about a year ago. Back in the day I ended up with one booster pack of this by accident as it came with an issue of the Duelist. The rare was Tolarian Academy, and I thought this won't be legal for long -- Ironically scaring me off from the game further. That said, this was the only block that could compete with ABU, and there is something to be said for that. Also, it is weird to think that this was the last pre-Pokemon pre-Hasbro block, as the WotC we knew up to this point was about to go away forever. And the other thing is, if I recall correctly, this was the last block where mana burn was a thing -- and removing that made many of these cards more broken.
As far as Rune of Protection: Lands, there is Stensia Bloodhall from orginal Innistrad as another land that can also deal damage once per turn cycle. Like Gorge though it was so weak that it didn't really see any play when it was in Standard (while most of the other lands in the cycle saw some or even a lot of play). There's also Sunscorched Desert and the dual land Deserts from OTJ as one-off damage effects.
While it's not the most broken card ever, I think Time Spiral is the most egegrious design ever. I don't know how anyone didn't look at this and go "You can't be serious?" in the design process. An entire new hand. For 0 mana. Even the fair play is ridiculous: you're in blue so you untap with a fistful of countermagic and all your mana to cast it all. LIKE HOW DID THIS SEE PRINT?!? AI cards are less broken.
Agree with Ced’s rating. Patrick giving this set the same grade as fallen empires is absurd. The power level critique is fair but it was corrected through bans, and the vast majority of players back then weren’t playing “tournament magic”. The art is epic and the cards brought a lot of new players to the game, net positive. Expecting higher grades for Legacy, Destiny, even Masques!
Lands that could deal damage before Urza’s Saga: the 2 creature lands (Mishra’s Factory and Stalking Stones) and the various pain lands (Adarkar Wastes & friends, Ancient Tomb, City of Brass).
horseshoe crab and hermetic study were a really good common combo in draft. i remember having 4 of each in a 40 card draft deck. i think i called it like mega tim back then as it simulated prodigal sorceror which was called tim at the time.
I might be confused by the grading system. What is the criteria? If the set is a '3' according to Patrick, that's the same grade as Homelands and Fallen Empires and barely above Ice Age. I can't fathom a world where I would introduce someone to magic with an expansion and hand them a deck of Homelands Cards, Fallen Empires cards or Ice Age cards and expect them to continue playing the game. I started playing at The Dark and my biggest regret was that I wasn't playing/collecting during the Urza's block. Of course some of the designed are way too overpowered, but they contain cards that define formats for years to come. Almost nothing still exists from Ice Age, Homelands, Fallen Empires, etc...
If I introduced someone to magic and their first experience was getting turn 1 killed by an Academy deck over and over again they would probably also quit the game.
Gilded Drake had for a time the interesting text "this effect can ONLY be countered by spells and abilities" re creature lands: I think Cedric forgot about Stalking Stones ;)
@@TheResleevables , I feel like you missed the opportunity to highlight how WOTC was really inconsistent (at least within this set) with their cycles besides just with the legendary lands. But like I stated, I get it.
this was such a great set. these comments can easily be tldr. the rune of protection land was setting up for the incoming treetop village and friends in legacy.. i always felt wotc dropped the ball on shivan gorge. i always imagined it having the ability 'T:add one red mana for each basic land in your opponents graveyard.' appealing to the LD meta at the time while also following the flavor of cradle and academy.
How come the Plains or Serra's Sanctum did not win best art? The Tower is also gorgeous, though, amazing art in this set. Pity about the Lore segment missing this time, as the story continued to be very engaging in this set. First of all, the set's story is depicted in the first revisionist novel published, The Brothers' War, and it's sequel, Planeswalker, which were both really good (later books could be hit or miss, but they followed each new set up to Eventide). Many characters and stories only mentioned in passing previously are fleshed out here, showing us finally who Urza was, a lot about Serra and her angels, the origins of Karn, an extensive look into the nightmarish Phyrexia, and I think the first character that could be interpreted as transgender, Xantcha. It's also pretty cool that each color is more or less devoted to a part of Urza's story, depening on where he ended up during his travel.
First ever format I drafted, pack 1 pick 1 Tolarian Academy. I knew I was going to get housed by the experienced drafters and I wanted to walk away from the draft with some rares. Little did I know what an iconic moment I had just experienced.
The legendary lands cycle has always bugged me. The green, white, and blue ones all are very similar designs and the red and black ones are completely different. Granted, it’s hard to figure out other card types that red and black could care about. My best guess would be the red one tapping for each instant and sorcery in your graveyard and the black one tapping for each creature in your graveyard. Still too powerful but it would at least be consistent.
The cards weren't originally in a cycle. Somebody (IIRC Mark Rosewater) just noticed that there were a bunch of lands at rare and said "ok, let's put one in each color and make them all legends."
I wasn’t playing Standard back then, but I assume the card that paid of the Fluctuator deck was Living Death. Basically just the contemporary Living End strategy, but with a card that makes all of your cycling free. (Though admittedly with worse cyclers too.)
Argothian Swine really sticks out to me. I know, lol, of all the things. But MtGs biggest strength is it's world-building, imho. The fantasy of being a wizard in a duel casting spells in a familiar and sort of real feeling world was as good as it got for me as a kid. So it's the little things like "this pig is as powerful as that elephant" that really chip away at the integrity of that experience, and in a really needless way.
It's not explicitly stated, but I feel like the subtext of that magazine article was "well, we know you're only playing blue anyways." Given the time period you could argue they were just catering to what they thought was their target market. Especially given the history of the color at the time, you were in blue for draw/counter, black for power, and red for land destruction. The other colors existed as per the lore, but hearing that sounds like it wasn't expected that anyone would ever bother playing them. I mean, heck, it sure must be easier to balance a game if you don't have to care about 2/5ths of the cards that are printed. No wonder R&D got dressed down.
