Vaush vs Zoe Baker (anarchopac) on electoral politics 

My review of the discussion with Vaush: I think I did a good job explaining the anarchist critique of state socialism but could have done much better at explaining the anarchist alternative of winning reforms via direct action. Was difficult to remember everything whilst extremely anxious. There were a number of things Vaush said that I massively disagreed with but given the time constraints I was trying to pick my battles and only focus on certain points. I plan to make a video responding to some of his arguments in more detail.

you should be a recurring guest on his stream great arguments.

I think Vaush should make more videos promoting and researching leftist organizing and direct action. And maybe divert more people toward your way :)

I think I have detected a double standard in Vaush's reasoning: when he talks about Bernie Sanders' electoral campaign, he presents it as successful because it pushed the Overton window to the left on social security issues and radicalised millions of people, despite a lack of actual policy change. But when he talks about the Black Lives Matter movement, he describes it as a failure because it had no effect on policy, despite its radicalising effect on millions of people on the matter of police brutality and systemic racism. The BLM movement even popularised ideas like police defunding and even police abolition that had been frowned upon hitherto. Vaush's goal seems to switch from radicalisation to policy change and vice versa depending on which movement is discussed. He moved the goal post.

More Zoe on the Vaush channel please. This conversation is absolutely necessary, is nowhere near finished and we would all benefit if it were to continue. Maybe Zoe hour once every couple of weeks?

You did great! Fundamentally, I think you gave him a bit of a reminder of what it means to be libertarian and that he's gotten a bit too tangled in the electoral weeds of their recent election and those leftists who were staunchly against voting for Biden or even Bernie in the primaries.

It is quite unreal to see Zoe engage in a dialogue, I am used to her in monologue.

When so many americans think that "socialism is when government does stuff" I think that there needs to be shown an alternative to neoliberalism.

I'm so happy you got to talk to vaush he needs your influence

IMO your biggest mistake was you didn't emphasize community-building enough. Vaush is very focused on radicalizing people (which makes sense, since the left desperately needs to grow if we want to achieve anything), so the direct action stuff didn't sway him because you didn't explain how direct action can also serve to radicalize people. Vaush thinks we might be able to achieve policy changes through electoralism, sure, but the main reason he supports it is its capacity to radicalize people (see for example the huge wave of radicalization that happened after Bernie Sanders's primary run in 2016). But if someone could explain to him how community-building can be a viable alternative to electoralism for building a left coalition, I think he'd be on board.

This was -probably- much more civil then *any* of the discussions Marx and Bakunin had

Ugh! He glazed over your point that all unions are not the same. So important! I am in one of the largest bureaucratic unions in America and you were spot on. They squash any radical movement and side more with keeping the company running, with small concessions to its workers. We can’t even strike! -A concession given away after our last famous strike in 1970(probably just gave myself away). -I think this lends to why Americans look sideways and won’t throw their weight behind unions.Yes, he’s right, unions in America are at their weakest point, but he broad brushes over the fact that all unions are not the same. They are not only weak or non-existent, but have been co-opted at their highest levels. I would’ve love to hear this point teased out more. How do we strengthen our existing unions to lead to more unionization?

Actual title: Emma Goldman beats up a supporter of Kautsky outside the conference of the 2nd International.

I found you through Vaush's stream went to sub immediately after the talk. Really liking the content so far! :)

I’ve seen a lot of Vaush’s discussions and this is at the top 0.1% with how well it went. You didn’t seem to have well defined disagreements though, the line between your positions of achieving short term reforms through electoralism vs direct action wasn’t very clear. Though it just seemed that Vaush thinks that America is in a state of an immovable overton window, and that no mass movement could possibly be built bottom-up by itself in the US. I think you should’ve hammered the point that conditions were much worse at the beginning of Capitalism when there weren’t any unions or left wing movements whatsoever and repression was much more brutal. I’m excited to watch your video where you respond to his points in more detail without time restraint or the pressure of a live audience.

I am so happy you’ve had this discussion. Solidarity to you comrade, and I hope you’re doing well.

Vaush: I have mixed opinions about this. Zoe: Well I have examples... Facts and logic ftw 😂

The way he wrote off direct action as" just handing out food to unhoused people" was really reductive and dismissive. I found that frustrating.

I saw this during Vaush’s live. I was very impressed by you. What a treat the discussion was. ✌️❤️

I'm a fan of Vaush even though I consider myself more radical than him, and I have to say this was by far one of the best conversations he's had on stream, in fact I tried to have a similar discussion with him once but yours went much better. Anyway the point is I hope you feel encouraged to keep reaching out to larger audiences because what you have to say is very valuable! And I'm sure you'd be welcome back on his stream, he needs more leftist acquaintances who don't hate him lmao

I think the biggest issue with vaush is that he forms his opinions on what sounds the most logical, instead of reading theory and seeing what was tried and what has failed in the past.

I would argue that Vaush is wrong to credit the broadening of political imagination in the US to politicians like Sanders. I think without grassroots organizers in movements like Occupy, there's no Sanders in 2016. I think electoral politics distracts people, it leads them to put their hopes in who can't give them what they need. Better to spread the actual truth that we're better off relying on each other, surely?? Anyway love to listen to a guy who calls people low IQ.

I wasn't aware of your content prior to seeing you on this stream, I found it really interesting and easy to follow, thanks for going on :)

I think I can see the perspective of both sides on the matter of electoralism with vaush thinking that a new leftists or at least more left leaning base needs to be build within the USA before a great amount of direct action can sufficiently bring change and shake the system. In contrast zoe mostly spoke from an historically educated position about reformist Parties having been corrupted by the political movement and since he described a very reformist like approach to the revolution he wants in his video "how i want to build socialism" The worries of history repeating itself Especially from an anarchist perspective is quite reasonable. I think i agree with both sides to agree seeing the need for electoralism rn in order to establish a left leaning base but also i hesitate to relly on electoralism in the future. I think using electoralism to a degree to build the left leaning platform and then diverging into more direct action and organizations independent of the electoral system would be the best way to find a solid foundation on which socialism can be achieved one day Thats just my opinion though who i admit to that is neither an American nor even nearly as well educated on anything i think like zoe

Flaking off of Vaush's subscriber base to boost Zoe's numbers. Algorithm's be praised, bless this channel with growth.

One of the most important discussions vaush has had

Vaush has no idea but even "European Social Democracy" was a hard fought battle in which electoral politics only had a concrete impact because of social movements (which went up to armed struggles). Else, Bismarckian style of politics (including social security among other thing) were concrete anti-working class policies. He really needs to pick his battle.

Girl, I liked you, you are fun and smart. Great job. I’m a Brasilian, and our on-line left is basically composed to doctors and masters in human sciences, and I was missing the presence of academics in the US online left.

Fan of you both! Really enjoyed this crossover, though I do think Vaush interrupted you on a few occasions when it wasn’t justified

I'm glad to see you went on Vaush's stream ! I understand how hard it must be to think of all the right talking points to focus on on the spot, but I think it's important to incite Vaush to talk about direct action more. Would love to see a more laid-back video addressing some of the points more in-depth

It'd be nice if Vaush knew the effectiveness of Direct Action and of what it entails it's not just small give a homeless person a sandwich and prefiguration in general.

wow Zoe can't wait to watch more of your vids and learn more from ya

imagine thinking we have 10 years to wait for "reform to radicalize"

As a fan of both your channels, it was nice to see a pleasant discussion between you two. I know a lot of lefties like to hate on Vaush, but it's undeniable that his channel has pushed tens--if not hundreds--of thousands of socdems, libs, and conservatives towards leftism. Even if we don't agree with everything he says, radicalizing that many people is a net gain for leftists and I wish people would stop hating on his platform.

loved everything i heard from you via vaush and i´m looking forward to hearing more and getting involved in direct action!

I subbed after listening to you on Vaush. I like and respect both of you. Good discussion.

this is amazing

Great discussion! Thanks Zoe for explaining it really well, learned a lot about history through this discussion. Hope to learn more :)

I really wish he would have let you talk more.

My hero. I always learn so much everytime I tune in. Thank you so much.

I'm a semi-regular Vaush viewer, but I decided to come watch this debate on your channel to help boost your stats for the all-powerul algorithm. You're clearly really intelligent and knowing what it's like to have to make arguments while very anxious, you seemed really well spoken here. Excited to check out more of your content! ☺

this reminded me of when my boyfriend was trying to explain to me why being a tankie is wrong and me being so ignorant to that idea because i didn’t want to admit i was wrong. then 🌈anarchism🌈 and my life was changed

I was absolutely excited after learning about you from your tweet and seeing you on stream so soon. I would love it as someone who watches Vaush a lot if he'd have you on again in the future. I for one think you did a wonderful job despite your nervousness and was absolutely enthralled when watching this live.

we need more conversations like that ! this was excellent

I've followed your channel for years now, I was so surprised to hear you on a Vaush live-stream :)

Coming from Vaushes channel, great debate, introduced me to some new ideas in a clear, straightforward language that I will definitely that to think more on

You've got a subscriber here, watches this debate as a Vaush fan, now I'm following you.

Vaush is bad about pretending to know what a guest is talking about and you can almost see on the reflection of his glasses him googling the subject, and bam immediate expert. It's pretty funny

People are moving past signing on with unions and are making their own unions. It is beautiful. ❤️🖤

33:58 ImAgInE mY ShOcK, watching this in 2023, after AOC voted to break the rail strike

I’ve just come here to say, this is most probably one of the channels that most influenced my descent into leftist philosophy, truly great content. You and hakim (regardless of him being an ML he does highlight the fundamental flaws of capitalism) have both been great influences on me. Thank you for this channel and keep up the good work!

That was a very informative discussion. Thanks for coming on 🙏

Sanders didn’t radicalize people, he and his campaign put out slightly more radical language to increase their electoral support for very mild (and admittedly needed) social reform to the existing capitalist system.

You did great here!!! It's very frustrating to watch a lot of this go over Vaush's head, though. His repetition of "but I want to WIN" really drives home the very flaws with electoralism that you'd just pointed out- that the desire for victory or securing one's power eventually supersedes the principles and desires that lead one to seek power within existing systems in the first place! Of course we want to win, but victory, independent of principle is not virtuous or desirable in and of itself. We can "win" all the minor reforms that we want, but without replacing existing institutions, those victories are fragile and often ineffective in the long term. I also think that here, he vastly overstates the impact that individuals have on policy and dismisses out of hand the class antagonism and popular pressure that, in reality, is responsible for the growing influence of their ideas. It's also quite frustrating how quickly he waves away your provided examples of real-world success from direct action, claiming that he can empirically prove that politicians can do more direct good, but then fails to do so. Anyone can claim whatever they like and defend their claim with anecdotal evidence, "common sense", etc., whether their claim is actually correct or not. He has no real evidence, instead leaning on a common perception as "proof". Anyway, I greatly appreciate you and what you do.

The problem with participation in the state in anachism is the idea of means and ends. If you advocate for state participation the workers that are hearing and inserted in the context will reproduce the idea that participation and institutional Unions are the way to go. I think that what Vaush defends here is, with all respect, reformism. Here in Latin America we have the example of Salvador Allende in Chile, when the socialists started to do major changes to the social structure of the country, like redistribution of land and such, the ruling class with the help of the military instituted a coup d'etat. Bringing with them one of history's most vicious dictators (Pinochet). I agree that it's much easier to organize workers in a Social Democracy than in a Ditactorship, and so does Bakunin if i recall correctly. But i disagree completelly with the point that Vaush makes that any political action dwarves any direct action from the social movements, if y look at history rarelly politicians made changes without the direct pressure of social movements(Unions and such). Normally what happens, are changes that focus on dismobilising the working class and pleasing the ruling class. In Brazil, most of the workers rights were accomplished by workers pressuring the Vargas Regime. To say that Vargas have a merit for conceding is to spit at the grave of people who actually died fighting for it. The strategy of mass movement is meant to teach people how to organize and fight, there is power in the numbers because at the end what we want as anarchists is ALL POWER TO THE PEOPLE or POPULAR POWER. Other aspect of the strategy of mass movement is the idea of constant pressure, inside the social movements we estabilish short term and mid term objectives as a way to teach people how to organize and fight. At the same time this aspect makes that short term and mid term demands are carry out, making the life of the workers better. The power to change the state is at the hands of the ruling class and normally they dont like to share! That is why there is a police or military. I think that what Zoe defends here is the cultivation of the Popular Power and the creation of social structures independent from the state power, so that people could struggle! Other thing that bugs me is that Vaush thinks that this direct action movements would be isolated, that is a naive argument. If you have a revolutionary organization going inside this social-movements, radicalizing people and conecting this movements, at some point we will have what we call solidarity between the working class. It's the work and Strengthening of the social movements that can bring about the changes. Yeah, it's a struggle and violence is the norm. Fear of it will not change the fact that the ruling class, using the state, will always defend their position in the hierarchy. One socialist in a state will make little to none against the whole of the ruling class, that is why people like Marighella went to advocate for armed struggle. The state always operate in the idea of class conciliation, so any one that participate will inevitably have to pratice that and doing so they only will get approve to do changes that please the ruling class and that they deem necessary for the Maintenance of their state power. I hope my english is not to abysmal and that i got my point throught Cheers from a Brazilian Especifista! o/ Great work Zoe and Vaush!

What a bomb of a convo. Cheers.

Excellent. Edit: A PhD in Anarchism? That sounds VERY interesting. How did you accomplish that? I didn't know that it was a field of study people could get a doctorate in. That's fantastic! Also I have to compliment how you conduct a conversation, very well spoken 😊 Edit: very amazing, loved every bit of this conversation. I believe you had the upper hand the whole time, there were things that Vaush wasn't grasping. But I think you did an excellent job!

I think bringing up some of the arguments made by Peter Gelderloos in How Nonviolence Protects the State would demonstrate to Vaush better some of the deeper trouble with his position

Vaush's focus on unions is the wrong focus, and Zoe calls this out. It is a union that needs to be formed, not many, but one aspect of solidarity. I would love for Vaush to support his thesis with some actual evidence. There seems to be a tremendous amount of evidence that Liberal political actions do not move progress meaningful forward, without direct action. It seems like Vaush advocates for a form of "Trickle-Down Politics" where the Great People of Electoral Politics lead the marginalised to the promised land. The view I get from Zoe is that the change has to come from the bottom-up, and historically that is where the most lasting victories for the working class have been gained. If possible it would be fantastic to get Zoe's thoughts on "The Apprentice Sorcerer: Liberal Tradition and Fascism" by Ishay Landa

Just listened to this on Spotify, GREAT conversation! I'm still somewhere between the two positions so I'd definitely like to see more of this

Big fan of both you and Vaush!

This was amazing, you did a fantastic job Zoe! Please try and get onto more of Vaush's streams, he has a comparatively huge audience that would really benefit from hearing about anarchist ideas

Love to see this and great work. Thanks for debating him.

As a Vaush enjoyer: really nice job! New sub from me. I think both perspectives are important to keep in mind, ie that creating a favorable electoral environment while reinforcing the idea that all elected representatives will at some point become corrupted and building power among the people may be a good way forward. I think Vaush was very nervous too, he was getting pretty defensive haha.

You were just mentioned very favorably in a discussion between Vaush and Paul. Figured I'd check you out :) Great conversation.

Subscribed to you from vaush!

Really loved the discussion and looking forward to your video on this. I've seen the Molyneux call you mention and it was very entertaining as well; you seem to have privated that one tho, right? :/

Non-anarchist communist here. Been a HUGE fan of you and Vaush for a long time. REALLY glad you went on, I thought the discussion was really really productive and would love to see more interactions between you both.

This is a very interesting discussion. Thanks for posting, and thanks for your channel

I’m so glad I got to find you through Vaush.

You crushed in this argument! It was deeply frustrating watching Vaush strawman your side, not understand your arguments, and then weirdly contradict himself in the end. You're patience and lack of rage (at least in appearance) was amazing, I would have been visibly frustrated and angry in your spot. .

While I do tend to agree with Vaush in terms of American politics, I certainly understand where you're coming from. For example, Nester Makhno trusted that he would be best off working with the state against a reactionary enemy and was ultimately betrayed. I think that in America, electoralism is useless in implementing change but is necessary to participate in in choosing which enemy you would rather face. Liberalism, or fascism. And it would be far more advantageous to work through means of arguing against liberalism than fighting a loosing war against a reactionary opponent. But please talk with him again! It was at the very least a very productive conversation!

Vaush is entirely wrong about trade unions in our current times. Jacobin contributor and union organizer Jane Mcalevey has been successfully organizing unions even during the Trump era. The issue isn’t electoral politics making it impossible to organize, its ineffective organizers and strategies being used. In order for union organizing to be effective you need to shoot for 95-100% membership, otherwise the effort will fail. She has multiple books written in the past few years detailing Union wins in the US since 2016-present as well as effective strategies necessary to win such as structure tests. Claiming laws that have passed are the main issue and claiming that unions effectively don’t exist is not only inaccurate but only demonstrate Vaushs lack of knowledge as to current union operations and strategies.

Pog, based and big brained. I like Vowsh's humour and general political dispositions but I'm not gonna pretend he's some intellectual titan. This is probably top 3 Voosh conversations (my fave being the one with that other anarchist PhD student with on how such societies can defend themselves). Hopefully Roosh V can learn something from this, I certainly did. Great performance, Zoe.

This was so informative. I learned so much about anarchism. Thank you both so much!

Frequent vaush viewer here. This was a great convo. Subbed.

Huh it's interesting hearing Vaush say unions are dead in this country and his predictions around 27:30 where he says no one in America will risk their life or livelihood to fight for unionization -- kind of wild how much has changed in the past two years with the massive wave of strikes and unionization at Amazon, Starbucks, railway workers (which the Squad voted to break btw, thanks electoral politics), etc. Encouraging signs from the people! I'd honestly be really interested to see another debate with the two of you based on the current state of affairs!

Thanks so much for doing this stream , as someone from america i'm kinda tired of people like vaush. i spend a lot of time talking about and arguing for direct action and most people i know get it. some people are still afraid of state repression but they still get it . if we would spend more time actually organizing , as opposed to justifications for liberalism we can start building an infrastructure that can achieve bigger and better things . again i really like this . and would love to hear your responses to some of the things Vaush was saying

REally hope you go back on the show. You are super good faith and a valuable ally for sure. love good faith disagreements

Love this crossover 💝

youre amazing !!! one of the people who make the world a better place and i love to live at the same time as you💛💛

Came from Vaush and I’m here to give this vid a boost. Btw, Zoe thanks for being my gateway to the left.

Ayyy, this was a lit stream, good convo

I was on the stream yesterday, but I didn't realize it was you, Zoe! Love you content.

Super cool stuff Zoe, caught you live and was really impressed, instant sub :) Looking forward to going through your content :))

47:25-48:35, Zoe answers the crucial question and makes a very valid point. The whole discussion is being framed in a very narrow way, the answer to building social movements or mass-organizations is through a 'diversity of tactics', but also not throwing all your weight behind electoral means because we should never trust politicians. But prefigurative politics is definitely key to answering these questions from a far-left perspective.

Seriously, millions of dollars have been spent on pushing this idea that it can't happen specifically so that it doesn't happen.

I find it so funny that he said that unions are dead as they've ever been literally a year before the writer's and actor's strike

I was a student during the 2012 student strikes in Québec and it is very surprising to me that these protests were mentioned as a success story. The raise of university tuition was not abandoned by the government due to the popular pressure/direct action, but because the Liberal Party of Quebec was just slightly beaten in the following election. Given the fact that it was one of the most corrupt and right leaning government of Quebec's history, this slight election victory was actually very depressing. Additionally, the new government from the Parti Quebecois did not follow on their electoral promise of tuition freeze but the tuition fees were increased following the inflation. Maybe I am too pessimistic, but I do consider the 2021 student protest a big loss on almost all front. Québec also ressemble a lot more France than the USA. So I'm not sure if giving it as an example for the USA is a good one.

Found you through Vaush Keep up the great work

I've never listened to Vaush before, but I don't really care for his style which felt unnecessarily argumentative/debate-y rather than a conversation or interview. Since, listening to both points, it didn't sound like there was any actual disagreement to be had. Vaush just hadn't considered something that Baker was talking about, and it took him close to an hour to realize that.

Hi Zoe, thought this discussion was great, if you go on again you should try to discuss more about his transitional state idea rather than just electoralism in general

Direct action is going to be more important than ever in the coming future.

I think Vaush is a DeLeonist who doesn't know what DeLeonism is. I hope so bc I'm a DeLeonist and let me tell you, we're a dying breed lol.

i think discussing dual power & the direct actions involved with building dual power could have countered his thoughts on what is to be done to uphold electoralism.

how did you remain so calm lmao, you did so well!

The last point was the most important one. Sure establishing socialism step by step sounds nice, but what happens if the majority of the public becomes comfortable with liberalism and are unwilling to go further? They can also become cynical and view every party as the same, even hard libertarian socialist ones who actually want to bring change

uuu thats a nice one. i appreciate vaush way of doing things and somewhat helpfulness for the cause, but exact such points i heavyly disagree with him as well as anarchist, so cool to see you there. hope it was a friendly encounter and more people are swayed (y)our way. will listen to it though when i find the time. :)

I'm confused. When talking about the pipeline, Vaush says that DA is a fail because it lost, but that Bernie talking ( and ultimately loosing ) is a big win for electoral politics.

I've learned so much about collective action in this video! But I have no idea what I'm supposed to say as an individual to my exhausted co-worker at Dominos who's completely disinterested in electoral politics and politics altogether :