Verdi vs Wagner: the 200th birthday debate with Stephen Fry 

Much as I love Verdi, Wagner plumbs the depths of what it is to be human in all it's nobility, frailty and self-contradiction like no other composer i have ever encountered.

I don't see pompousness in Wagner's music at all. Nobody before or since has been able to plumb the emotional depth or inner turmoil of the characters like Wagner. As was pointed out, even the minor characters are well conceived. Mr. Hensher failed to point out that Wagner did not include box seats in Bayreuth and refused to give any privilege to the aristocracy. He was most definitely a man of the people.

The thing that struck me as funny was when the comment was made "where would John Williams be without Verdi?" ... Have you EVER listened to Star Wars? Williams' scoring is near-identical to a Wagnerian orchestra, and there are explicit quotations from Tristan in there. This is not to say that other influences aren't there (Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Richard Strauss in a few spots), but to suggest that Verdi had any influence on film score is just ludicrous. More than anything, Verdi more strongly influenced how musical theatre would develop, especially in how songs were written, and this is an enormous influence and shouldn't be ignored. But let's face facts: any modern orchestral score composer takes at least a couple cues from Wagner, especially due to his development of leitmotifs in concurrence with the action.

I'm afraid 'Tristan' makes this a non-contest. 'The death of Isolde' is simply incomparable in its power to move. That would be my introductory piece every time.

His citation of Wagner's anti-semitism should have no bearing on the task at hand.

Fry's face when Verdi guy is talking cracks me up.:)

I love Verdi, but Lebrecht’s tactics are disgusting here. “Verdi is good because he’s not anti-Semitic. Wagner is bad because he’s anti-Semitic.” There are much better metrics for gauging the genius of a composer.

*When you realize Fry looks like Wagner when he’s shaven*

Wagner loves power? The whole ring is about rejecting power and greed in favour of love, it literally shows how greed and lust for power and laws and contracts and all that which symbolizes and manifests power lead to the destruction of the whole world, as in the end, Valhalla burns down and the Rhine floods the rest of the world... Wotan gets his power by cutting of a branch of the world tree, and writing his law in runes on it, but that kills the world tree and poisons the spring flowing beneath it. The whole world slowly gets corrupted because of this act. The speaker obviously confuses the canvas (gods, princes) with the words written on it.

When Lebrecht called Desdemona "all bling and handbags" I wanted to kick him. I found some of his statements close to racism, and very offensive, and his "jokes" amused no one. Verdi deserved a better champion.

The moments of fruitless rebuttal were a desperate attempt to scorn the artist and ignore the works of art - the true measure of this event. It's a pity that Verdi's music was not examined and explained as well as Wagner's was. I'm one of Wagner's rapturously devoted fans, but Verdi deserved a much better presentation.

I wish we had such an intelligent discussion in the U.S.

both were great opera composers no matter what.

I'm personally disposed to agreeing with the Wagnerian side of the argument here, and that side is argued much better in this debate; but I feel I must say: Verdi is a much better composer than this debate makes it seem. People are drawn to the instantly memorable, beautiful, singable melodies which are everywhere in his work, and he undoubtedly had a great talent for them, but this is nothing like the be all and end all of his value. Verdi's music is profound and magnificent and utterly serious. The similarities his music has with the melodramatic vocal flourishes and sloppy orchestration which sometimes appear in Italian opera are cosmetic only. His music is utterly refined and meticulously balanced and it will plumb the depths of your soul every bit as much as Wagner can, if you have only the ears to listen and the heart to feel.

The BBC documentary on Verdi made a much better case for the composer than this guy. The Wagner advocate did a great work, on the other side.

Absolutely one of the best shows I've ever watched, and I've gone back to it over and over again, and I get more and more convinced of Wagner's brilliance every time. The way that it is broken down and explained in detail in 1:00:22 is simply astounding and pedagogically superb!

No matter how much I enjoy Verdi operas, if Verdi had never lived, I doubt the future of music would have been altered in any way, whereas Wagner shook music to its core.

Verdi was the perfection of a past era, romantics and esthetics. Wagner traces back to Beethoven, he is expression, he opened new fields where Mahler, Stravinsky and many others rooted their music.

what a BLAST!!! I love both of them- of course! this is such a good time! thank you,

I honestly think the Verdi advocate just had a grudge against Wagner for being an antisemite. How else can he extol Mahler, and then downplay Wagner's influence?

What I found in Verdi was an elegance , compassion and sensistivity unmatched. But I must say, that just the prelude to Tristan and Isolde filled me with a prism of fellings. Clairty, confussion, joy, dread, desire, a sense of lightness and the same time a glimpse of a dawning abyss. And that was just the prelude.

Roger Scruton should be here!

What a pleasure to hear intelligent people talk (and in complete sentences)

Grazie per questa splendida serata!

Loved the discussion, loved the performances more.

Summary - Verdi side: "Poor Jews. Wagner was not a nice man. I don't like him personally, and neither should you. Verdi wrote unaffected by the expectations of critics, who asked "Why not be more like Wagner?" Verdi captured the Italian spirit, but was never a nasty nationalist. You should like Verdi because he wrote a lot, was humble, and was a populist. Verdi is inclusive, Wagner is exclusive and elitist. No wonder he's so popular." Wagner side: "A good man can be a bad composer, as a bad man can be a good composer. Let's talk about the music and the genius of the work. Wagner penetrates with great insight into the human psyche. Wagner weaves complexity and innovation, using myths and gods, with the goal of encapsulating very human conditions. The epitome of his innovation is the Tristan chord, which serves as the pinnacle of 19th century music. The power of his work is gripping and transformative. Wagner is maddeningly captivating." I might add two things. 1. As other commentators have noted, the bit about Verdi and John Williams is astonishing, considering how many Wagnerian techniques John Williams uses. There's no equivocation. He argues for influence by exposure at the end, but the techniques and actual works on paper speak for themselves. There's nothing unequivocally identifiable of Verdi in John Williams. Of Wagner, the answer is easy if you just look at the structures and patterns. 2. Comparing the performance frequency of Verdi and Wagner is truly an improper comparison, because, very simply, Wagner's operas are extremely demanding (both production-wise and physically to the singers), whereas Verdi's operas (much like most composers) are sing-songy and relatively tame.

Gogh once said (and I'm paraphrasing) that there has been no one who had done for his art [painting] as had Wagner done for composing.

1. the fact that there are other anti-semites is irrelevant! 2. Stephen Fry's inability to be the arbiter rather than advocate is extremely disappointing... badly done.

Thank you!!!!! What an ending!!!!

This is fun, because now I know a bit more than I did before, but music debates are really impossible, it's purely a matter of taste.

Who is Verdi? I am Beethoven and I am an expert and my opinion is Verdi is a very very good italain composer like all the others - very very good! And who is Wagner? In my opinion Wagner has changed music for ever!

A fan of both composers, but I do believe Wagner was more influential. Rather difficult to pick a "winner". They are both giants in opera. They both feature very early in my appreciation of music, listening to old Caruso records of Verdi with my mother, and discovering Wagner's Tannhauser a few years later.

The moment I heard the opening to Das Rheingold 30 years ago I fell in love 😊 I went to a symphonic performance of the ring in '98 and the look on Bernard Haitink's face seeing me in the front row with a mohican was priceless 😂

The Verdi guy's jokes at the start of his speech.. awkward. Leaving a gap for no one laughing

What a wonderful discussion of three brilliant connoisseurs. And John Tomlinsom is just am amazing highlight.!

I love both in theirs total different worlds. Opera vs. Musical Drama.

loved it! Thanks, terrific show and S.F. enjoyed as always. Staying with Verdi, and NOT because of the antisemitism issues. Verdi delights and enchants me.

This is a very interesting conversation, sounds fun. However, what's the point of comparing different composers, they were all fantastic in their own right. There are no bad operas, it's your personal taste. I enjoy both Wagner and Verdi as well as other operatic composers such as Donizetti, Bellini and Messenet.

Very good point; thank you.

Lohengrin & Rigoletto would be my suggestions to first listeners

All over in one word: Parsifal

Amazing. Even though I am named after a Wagner Opera and I love his music... I cant betray my paisano Verdi.... Nothing moves me like Verdi.

That was fun. It is "apples and oranges," but I'm with Wagner. Verdi might be the greatest at what he did, but Wagner is the only Wagner.

Give me Verdi.. Tunes you can remember. Glorious for the voice and orchestra.

I'm not so sure about the word "debate" except to draw one's attention. Both Verdi and Wagner are big-time winners within the musical world. One would have to say ultimately though that the influence of Wagner forever changed they way classical music evolved. His work comes down today in how movies are scored, how plays are produced, how Broadway works and many. many composers use his thought processes even unconsciously. I am not one could say that for Verdi. In terms of the individual personality, I think Verdi would win a debate within the realm of Western European ethics.

As some other comments mention, the fact that Wagner wrote his own libretti has a huge impact on this question. Also the way Wagner uses his Leitmotive is just beyond impressive. In Parsifal, every emotion, every thought, every idea has its own motif, or theme, and more than that, they interact with each other in an incredibly complex way. E.g. the grail and the spear, which both have a individual short ascending melody, and at the end, when they're united, come together to form a larger ascending melody that in a way fulfills the piece, thematically as well as musically. I also find it quite ironic how it was argued for Verdi that his ouvertures are not just snippets of the opera, but for some of his works this is exactly the case (e.g. Nabucco, which is a magnificent opera by the way, where we even get to hear the melody of Va Pensiero in the ouverture). Wagner's ouvertures on the other hand are their own pieces of work. They use the Leitmotive from the objects and emotions in the opera to "set the scene" of the piece and almost in a way give the backstory, without a single word sung. Again, I think Parsifal is a great example, where the Leitmotives appear in the ouverture to recount how Amfortas lost the spear and got his injury after being seduced by Kundry. Also in the ouverture to the second act, you can hear the fight music of Parsifal fighting his way up to Klingsor's evil castle. Still a very good case presented by Philip Hensher! Especially the statement that because Wagner was an ethically way more questionable person than Verdi, he could sympathize with the villains much better and create such incredibly complex antagonists really blew my mind and got me thinking.

So, who would win in a fight?

Desdemona; such a good choice! If a Martian suddenly came walking down the street and said: Excuse me Sir; I struggle with the human concept of Innocence: what is it, what does it mean?" I'd say go listen to Desdemona's Willow Song and especially the Ave Maria. It's all in there. I think it's true to say that Verdi was a true Humanist in practice; Wagner was one in spirit, in theory. I couldn't choose between the two; impossible! I'd feel as though I'd broken my own heart if I chose to discard Verdi, but we'd surely have no Alban Berg without Wagner; and that would be the truly great loss.. Thankfully, no choice need be made!

1:47:15 gets me every time. incredible

First of Wagner, try Tannhäuser and let the Overture lure you into the world.

I’ve got a photo of Verdi’s statue in Verona in my living room, that enough said

Verdi had a simpler vision of music. Wagner was way more grand. Two different ways, your personality will determine which one you prefer.

Wagner.

Every composer was important for the identity for their countries in the way of an unification, one inspired in the identification with the regular ppl, the mirro for all the italians, the other in the ideals, besides musical style, Wagner created Wanfreid, the multimedia state, a new mytology, in musical advances, he touched the future of the 20th century with Tannhauser and the begining of Tristan and Isolde.

Wow!!! Sublime music....great debate...

I....LOOOOOOVE both of them.

I'm not a fan of opera, so my rule of thumb is: If Maria Callas recorded it, it's worth listening to... Therefore Verdi

Wagner vs. Verdi,why?It's a matter of preference,I prefer Verdi,but Wagner was unique.

A reassuring conclusion. That interminable Wop sentimentalist isn't fit to wipe Herr Wagner's elegant posterior, IMO. And what a sham of an argument from the opposition. Verdi likes jews and poor people so vote for him...good grief. Was he serious with that?

This isn't a debate over who's music is more accomplished but over which composer was more tolerant.

I rediscovered Brunhilda's awakening (Siegfried Act iii..) on u tube..Having only had an old recording that I passed onto friend at a cross-roads. Gweneth Jones showed how easily she can make a grown man cry..

If someone asked me what I would imagine Wotan to look like, I would say like Sir John Tomlinson.

All this talk about Verdi being a novelist glossed over the fact Wagner wrote his own libretti but Verdi didn't. That doesn't matter to the viewer, but it matters if you're assessing them as novelists or artists.

Wow, Norman Labrecht should've worn a shirt that said "Verdi Scum" on it. (He was a pilgrim in an unholy land there...ha)

Be advised that tragically the audio sucks

Watching again this 10 years later i see how wrong was Lebrecht in his arguments and exposed constantly...i jumped more than once with more than one of his assertions...i should add that Verdi was like Spielberg but Wagner was Kubrick... that's a simple way to explain both composers to people not familiar with them

They are both wonderful, I will always love them both. I can listen to Verdi and be very moved even to tears and then walk away and be very satisfied. Wagner on the other hand is different, you can listen to Wagner but forget walking away, his music becomes part of your DNA, a lifetime of being in love.

What's with the red silk in the background 🙂

Bravo Walton! 👏👏👏 Magnificent Performance.

La música de Wagner traspasa todo entendimiento, es sideral...

I've only just started watching but it seems odd to have Fry in the chair: he's a HUGE Wagner advocate and has done a programme about him.

Be advised that as much as I love mr. Fry (a great deal) it's really unfair to have him as the moderator of this debate bc he has been an unabashed lover of Wagner's music since the age of 13 I recommend that you view the absolutely amazing documentary Wagner and Me( the me in the title being mr. Fry) I myself am not a Wagner fan but the documentary is soooooooo excellent and mr. Fry is soooooooo wonderful in it that he almost made a convert out of me.....almost. I grudgingly admire Tristan and Isolde. I remain still a puccini-ite

Verdi arrives at his objective in half time that it takes Wagner. This is not a judgment on whose music is better or worse. It is simply a fact.

Love Wagner, but Verdi is. . . after all, Verdi.

per favore sottotitoli in Italiano

Sorry, Verdi died in 1901, not in 1891, by god.

They are playing Verdi, yet the orchestra uses a Tuba instead of a Cimbasso? Heathens! Other than that I think it's not fair to try to prove your point about Verdi's greatness by picking as musical example the most sublime 15 minutes of music he has ever written. ;) His last three operas are a league of their own and to anyone who listens to them first his earlier works will hold many a dissapointment in store.

so Verdi got his music from the Jews...who would have imagined.

Verdi seems like a man of higher character. But I think Wagner's music is more interesting.

1:17:40

The idea of this debate seems silly as you cannot compare apples to oranges, but the populist argument I believe would have swung the other way had the Verdi selections played and sung, been from La Traviata, Rigoletto, or Il Trovatore. I think Verdi wrote for the people, Wagner for himself, or at least to his ideals. I remember years ago when this same debate raged over Bach and Händel. Bach wrote for God (Pia Jesu) Händel for the people. Yet certainly the most recognized music of the Church belongs to Händel, Messiah. It is a futile argument, but I learned a great deal from listening to these two learned men talk and yes teach.

magnifico.

I grew up listening to Italian Opera, of course, Verdi was a favorite of my father's, but when Wagner came to our lives we immediately experienced something of a different nature; I could understand what was happening in the drama, thanks to his magnificent orchestration. Though I was a child this music moved me in such a way nothing else in life could match to this very day. Wagner, the artist is the real Wagner to me. It's the power of his music that produces emotions that I do not experience with other composers, saved for some brief passages evoke by others

💫 Marvellous

Other comments posted here are correct, of course - this may seem to be downright "silly", as an out-and-out competition. But I don't think it was meant to be a REAL competition. It's simply a "fun" type of format in which they can discuss each composer & share a few facts about each one during this 200th Anniversary celebration....Facts that people may not know about Verdi & Wagner. If there's any debate about this being meant to be FUN, take a look at Stephen's socks. LOL.... (Love you, Stephen!) ;-)

So strange to see Wotan wearing a suit and tie 🤣

What are the exact movements performed can anyone tell me?

I wonder what a defense of Verdi would sound like without resorting to cliches and appealing to modern political sensibilities. "Oh, Nabuco is sort of nationalist, but in a good way, because it's not actually nationalist, because nationalism is bad, something-something marginalized something-something, inane emotional appeals. Poor Verdi deserves better. - a disgruntled Puccini fan, wondering why her guy is being completely left out

Completely true.

I just simply prefer Italian operas, so I am biased :P But Wagner is amazing too :)

why want an actual italian scholar invited, this bloke knows about it s much as id o about verdi and we stop in middle school

Que pena que não tem em português

Prima o poi farò un commento. Per ora ascolto con molto interesse questo colto dibattito. Avendo avuto,il sottoscritto, un rapporto d'ascolto intimo, con entrambi , assicuro che il mio giudizio sarà definitivo ponendo fine a questa antinomia.

i find it facinating that they think it was not done on purpose, for us its common knowledge

Vi piace di più la pesca o la pera?

Why do people always have to choose? Enjoy that music and shut up!

Wagner wrote some wonderful orchestral music and his operas work well as a whole. You could also argue that the Ring cycle is the forerunner of the "concept" album. Pity he couldn't write for the voice as well as he did for the orchestra. Consequently I'm a Verdian as he manages drama and melody, orchestra and voice with equal brilliance.

Verdi vs Wagner as Manchester - Liverpool The debate of drunks in a pub

Well done orchestra well done Tomlinson sang Valkyrie beautifully. I know Wagner is good for me, It has healed me many times.

I absolutely adore Brahms music, but even in his day, he was a little old fashioned. You know who was way ahead of his time? Erik Satie.