VICTRON EXTREME! Extreme loads, extreme heat and an old problem is back 🙄 

"It's 6 amps outside", that's a classic Andy everyone will be stealing that one from you.

I love it " Its Sunny outside about 6 amps" sooo true, my wife looks at me funny when I say things like that lol

Good video, here in UK weather is 100mA from 100W of solar.

I'm sure it's mentioned in one of the almost 250 comments but if you were planning on running loads like that often a small capacitor banks would smooth that draw curve out. As I've mentioned in other videos beside my 400ah banks for garage and home, in my car audio build I use 2-630 farad ultracaps to handle surges and a bunch of lithium feeding the cap banks. It makes for extremely even draw and a whole sh"%ton of peak draw that even the lithium doesn't come close to providing. This is one of my many favorite videos of yours I love seeing things put to the test

Thanks for this video. I always suspected that Victron are not designed for hot climates. Your video just confirmed this.

Hi Andy, You might want to clean off the conductive grease you used. I believe that many manufacturers indicate not to use grease for primary power connections (between the conductors, in other words between the battery terminal and the bus bar). Also, it might be that the nuts are slowly turning as you have a lot of temperature changes day to night so that thermal cycling might let the nut spin a little bit. maybe better spring washers, or even a nylock nut to prevent that from happening.

Thank you sir for sharing your developing story - I am in the process of setting up a off grid garage. I have learned a lot from watching your channel and I thank you for all of your efforts :)

16:30 VA(power factor, usually 0.8) and W are not the same. You have to multiply VA to 0.8 to get the real Wattage. 3000VA*0.8=2400 W witch in your specification is verry acurate.

Great job on the little details terminal to bus bar in millivolts . Thank you for this knowledge of the information you bring to the RU-vid audience. Your cabinet I think you need to install a fan temperature control to get the best power consumption out of your unit due to the heat.

You are on the cutting edge 👍👍

I am SO envious of your beautiful property. If I stick my arms out of my house windows, I can almost touch my neighbors house. NYC suburban plight

Love it! Its 40amps out! You should make that T-shirt!!!💥💥🤘

Andy, vielen Dank, Top Videos wie immer :-)

Your videos are very detailed and informative . Thank you so much for that . Regarding the inverter ratings , VA is the apparent power not taking the power factor of the load into consideration . Kw is the real power taking the Pf into consideration . Most AC generating devices are rated at a PF of 0.8 so your 3Kva inverter can only give 2.4Kw Cheers Ross

Very interesting connectivity issue!

The S rating on the shredder is service factor. S 1 is the maximum continuous load. The S6 is the maximum it can do but only for 60% if the time. Most machine tools are rated like that as it allow manufacture using a smaller motor. Am envious of your high end equipment. I do similar experiments but with lead acid battery and Chinese electronics!

Why is so unknown to everyone inverter spec is for 20C degree. Over 30 you get roughly 75% top close to 40 under 50% only without overtemp. Surface temp is absolutely not even close to internal when you get that inside it is around 80C degree internal , it switch of close to a hundred. I tried to tell somewhere back in time but unlikely read that. That incredibly hot climate simply just take a double on a desired number. This why i also wrote the cabinet is completely unnecessary for that climate. Nice to see the experiment, i like it very educational. Nice garden!

I used to polish my terminal everyday, when I was young, almost never anymore...What a drag it is getting old...

I think by polishing the terminals, you made them so smooth, that the grease is now evenly spread between the layers. If they are not smooth, the small elevations and grooves will be pushed "into" each other leaving the grease in the "gaps".

6amps outside. Love it. Hilarious 😂😂😂😂

Hi Andy. One of the best things of your videos is that make hundreds of people arround the world to think about your problems and projects :-) My thoughs about two thighs: 1- the thermometer gun you use, (IMHO) I think is not used correctly. The laser dot is just a POINTER showing the TOP of the AREA the sensor is reading. Such surface AREA size DEPENDS of the DISTANCE beetwen the sensor and the surface. Think it is like a light torch that iluminates the surface according with the distance. At one meter, the reading is imprecise since is the "average" of a BIG surface (and not in the red pointer at all). 2- the voltage drop in the studs has to be studied carefully. Using grease just make the problem worse. The main contact area is BELOW the Bus-bar (the "terminal" itself); is the flat metal surface where the stud is inserted. The nut and washer material is almost irrelevant (but the diameter of the washer not). The most important factor is the flatness of the "terminal" and parallel to the bus-bar´s lower surface (more than cleanliness, plating purity, and so on). Dilatation is an issue, so, in my opinion, "omega" shape is much better than just flat, and even much better a flexible jumper. Aluminium is very reactive metal and is oxidized almos inmediatelly in contact with the air (ask to any welder about why it is needed to use argon arroud for welding aluminium), and aaluminium oxide is not a good conductor. Touching again and again the nuts is not a good idea, since it stresses the stud and its anchoring inside the terminal, damaging also the metal surfaces (coper and aluminium are very soft) and making necesary to repeat the tightening for ever. I sugest the use of conical washers (spring washers) that makes a constant pressure adapting automatically to the temperature induced dilatation.

It seems like some movement is occurring with your terminals with high amp loads, the terminal Grease maybe increasing the movement. Batteries could be expanding a little bit, try cable busbars and see if it helps.

Please look at the space requirements for the inverter. The electrical cabinet is going to need ventilation if you want to use it at higher loads.

Try a washer between the terminals and bus bars . Copper or aluminum may give a better contact .

I see two things that I question. 1. Put a big hole in top of the case and duct an exhaust fan to get more air flow past the inverter. Thats your only option besides getting a bigger inverter that is in range for the temperature. 2. In your diagnostic at 21.22 some of your bus bars appear to have large holes, and it appears the grub screws and washers are of different materials, which pulling high amperages could cause a problem. If that is the case you need to maximize the surface area of the cell terminal in relationship to the bus bar. The bus bar, even though heavy still acts as a fuse and if you could pull enough amps would fail. *** Always love your videos Thanks ***

I bet your terminals expand when pulling high currents. Get some expanding washers and torque connections down when warm. Or maybe the plated copper and aluminum don't mix for connections. Try aluminum busbars. Or maybe just a few busbars have bad plating.

Sehr gut 🤗

In our Data Center we use 220V fans in the cabinets, They make a bit more noise than you are used to from a computer fan, but blow like a tornado, but watch out for your fingers, I also use them myself in my cabinet .. I wonder if those bus bars you use are made of copper or secretly not made of steel, if your cells are not exactly the same height, it will never connect well, copper forms more easily, so mayby.....

Andy, what about lapping the terminals, by applying light pressure with the nut and lapping compound between buss bar and terminal, while turning back and forth? This should make sure that the buss bar and terminal have maximum contact area.

Interesting thank you

Perfect 👍

You can get a wireless Bluetooth range extender to connect to the Victron kit. If you put it near the window you will be able to connect when you are in the garden. It is mains powered, but you have solar to take care of that.

Nice test ..... Now 5kva inverter would work without any problems ...your high enviroment temperature it makes more difficult to work .... I would calculate normal load +30-40% because of high temperature but already know that... And because is free power eventualy u will add more load to the inverter and max out the output or work on max whole time... Like the videos ..... U hit the common problems spot on...and not many do that ....many questions are that way answered...excellent....👍

Hello! Andy, again, use Nordlocks on the connections. Keep "cranking out" videos !! Thank you.

With regards to the inverter I think that the learning point is to over spec by at least one level. I use a 10kw inverter for a 7.2kw car charger. If I run a kettle at the same time it copes (9.5kw) but brings on a warning light. Not a problem for intermittent use but I keep it to 7.2kw for continuous use. Probably good to choose an inverter so that it doesn't run continuously more than 75% especially in hot climates. As the Victron equipment has covers over the terminals I didn't put the inverter inside a cabinet which allows better cooling.

Hi Andy i'm from Portugal and i love to see your vídeos. But i have a question: why didn't you bought a 5k inverter?! For your needs i think its a better choise.

Yesterday in sunny Melbourne my 48 volt batteries were charging at 67 amps. And no rain here also.

Victron inverter is world class, i am more impressive to your installed BMS and DIY busbar

I have the same issue on my Lishen 272 battery pack with the resistance on the packs changing, I think it might be related to expansion of the cells when charging / discharging. I am thinking of trying to temporarily clamp the cells with kapton tape to see if that stops the movement.

Thanks!

It's like I'm going back in time.

My EASUN 48V/5KVA inverters capable of twice that power for 5 seconds never have the slightest problem in starting and running a load like my air compressor AC induction motor which takes more than 25A startup current @230VAC, provided my lead-acid batteries are charged! The first of those inverters cost me only 500 bucks until I wanted another six of the parallel version @ $1100 each, delivered promptly by the Shenzen manufacturer for my purpose of a 3-phase 30KVA system.

Try copper washes, and make your own bars with ½" copper tube. For the over temperature give them more space in between they are too close to each other.

There is anti-oxidant paste designed specifically for electrical connections to aluminum which prevents aluminum from oxidizing. That's likely why you have to periodically loosen and tighten nuts to scrape oxidation off.

Make crimp conections with two lugs and cable change the rigid bus bars and measure the voltage .....make video and compeare.... I have same issues with my cells as well.... Excellent job....spot on ...👍

I had a new lifepo4 battery that the surrounding plastic around the terminal was higher then the metal terminal post itself by about 0.5mm, I had to use a sharp knife to trim the plastic away from terminal post.

Andy, minor cell voltage deltas are quite normal. I find that it is common to see cell voltage deltas of up to 30-40 mV when running at higher current levels. I don't think you have a major issue here with cell voltage discrepancies at the load levels you are running at. Just be careful not to tighten the connections too much. The more you tweak the terminal connections, the higher the probability that you will strip the terminal threads. Then you will have a problem.

I would move the inverter to the floor. It will be cooler down there. Because of the case you have it in you may need a full time fan.

i was wondering if it is the actual terminals that are moving internally slightly?

I have the Victron smart shunt 500a. I love the data but Bluetooth sucks for me too! They need to fix this.. My Chinese JK BMS can go 3 times the distance!

Put a soft start on an outlet that you run loads that have a burst current like this.

Interesting what's going on with battery connection / bars. Don't think stainless is a good conductor from memory, go for copper and look to see what they offer to go through oxide layers. I remember Oz! Gets hot during the day, so if charging at night look to vent, maybe from outside air through a bug screen. Need fans and remove that hot air. Keep on charging. Mark

great test, but you should make 2holes in box for 2pc fans atleast 120x120mm for better cooling ;) atleast i would do that because that inverter gives high temp alarm realy early or inside its cooking but airflow doesnt cool it as much as it should... atleast thats what i think ;) but overall great tests these battery terminals dont do good job if some of them have voltage drop at terminal already... you will need to try something out of the box to make them perfect ;) diy is the way to go with them i think

ribbit! told ya so ribbit. LOL pull cold air from concrete floor , put fan top left cabinet. ribbit!

Reference your busbar/battery terminal problems. I wonder if the top of the problem cell terminals are no longer absolutely flat. Perhaps polishing them caused the top to become curved? If so this would reduce the contact area. I am not totally convinced that the conductive grease is a good idea. If it has slightly reduced conductivity it may actually be impeding rather than helping. Blocking direct metal contact maybe worse overall than helping to make up for the microscopic gaps. If the surfaces are totally flat and reasonably smooth the contact resistance should be minimal. If you are worried about corrosion you could add grease afterwards to act as a moisture barrier. I use thicker aluminium busbars with no grease on a pair of 12v LiFePo4 batteries in my RV. No risk of dissimilar metal corrosion and so far no problems.

I would use a zinc-coated Internal or combination lockwasher. That way any movement from heat expansion is negated from the bite, or bites if combination washer is used, upon application..

That's a very hot temperature for an inverter, I doubt my radian would handle full load in that kind of heat either. It may but it would be running at max temp for sure.

I was just about to ask you if you tried to measure cell voltage with your voltmeter and comparing them to what the bms is saying, I like the Idea of swapping bus bars, are they the same cells you were having issues with before you polished them? If you really want more fun I would top balance again, and disable the bms balancing and see how balanced the cells remain after a couple of midrange cycles, but I know you won’t be keen on that because of the amount of time it will take.

I have the same shredder. It says "silent" but also "93dB". Figure that out.

Can you try load over 2400watt or 3000w or 4000w see if its runn for how long before inverter shut down please thankyou

try to attach scrounging discs to the bussbars, preferably copper ones, oxidation can be prevented with pole grease

interesting to note.... hadn't considered the the limitations of a hot summer day. is the box you have it in limiting air flow partially? some temperature control computer style fans on the top and bottom of the box would be good I'm sure.

Do you think that you're dealing with oxidation of the aluminum battery contacts? You might consider utilizing conductive graphite ink (a la Robert Murry Smith's YT channel) or something similar to provide great electrical conductivity between the battery & bus bars while simultaneously preventing most oxygen from getting to the aluminum.

I would like to advise you to check the data sheet for this inverter on victron web page. Continuous real power at 25 Celsius is 2400W. As the current draw for inverter at the terminals raise, the internal temp will also raise ... so youre gonna be working at >2400W. Always size your systems with buffer and consider the real power with ambient temp .. just giving some technical advice.

Trying to think into the future a bit, if your hunting for fans. The 120mm Delta fans are awesome to cool things down I upgraded to them a few years and wow they make a big difference on the equipment over-temperature problems. So looking into the past and bus bar ideas look for the flatter bars with rounded ends. Nickle plated copper ones the there are multiple lengths available on aliexpress. I would also suggest using a torque wrench so that they are all exactly the same. Now really not sure the small differences you are seeing is much to worry about maybe can set the alerts to something less perfect. Seems like there may be a point to stop and be happy with it.

Sold I want one of those electric chippers. Heat is our enemy for sure. lol Use the metal siding for a heat sink and turn on the sprinkler hose on the outside of the garage. Copper bus bars with the bms lead soldered on may take some of that away. We await your solution Cheers.

Your videos provide little nuggets of info that i don't see anywhere else. ie: toghtening a terminal while viewing the BMS readout. Have never seen that. But, it is relevent!!! Also. How about the crimp of the terminals for the balance leads? Perhaps some are not tight?

Are you still using as 230V can you change settings use 240v inverter

Possibly put a heat shield on the outside wall of shed to keep sun of wall. Try standing a sheet of iron for a trial.

Andy, stainless steel is a poor conductor. Until you use a brass stud, washer and nut with a spring washer you are always going to get mixed results. The elongated hole in your busbars is also giving different a contact area resistance dependant on position. You need new all copper busbars and the BMS connection needs to be moved off the terminal and directly connected in the middle of the busbar.

The chipper shouldn't be started with sticks in it. They always trip breakers with sticks in them. Long low current extension cords take away starting power. Try with a higher rated extension cord. An outlet on the outside of the garage would come in handy.

Hello Andy, i have a question. I've planned to buy a Solar 6000 EP. but i realize the inverter is not so far in the setting, we have only the possibility to set :1.Battery Type 5.Max Charge (A) 2.Battery Capacity 6.Max Discharge (A) 3.Nominol Bat Voltage 7.*Discharg Depth 4.Battery Cell Type DOD. Do you think it will work with the custom 16 cells batteries with the JK BMS ? we cannot set the absorption or float with this, and Victor is not really the same budget to set a 6 KWh inverter ! Thanks a lot for your help and nice videos !

Do you have a washer between the balance leads and the bus bar / inverter cable? The screw, nuts, washers, etc. should not be used as part of the electrical circuit. Threads and stainless steel, not good. They should be considered as part of the mechanical force holding the highest current component against the battery terminal with lower current components stacked on it and compressed by washer and nut.

A suggestion: try replacing the nuts on the terminals with nuts having flanges of slightly larger contact area

Kind of sinister when you think about it... In the winter, inverter will provide a lot of power, but solar won't. In summer, you will produce a lot of solar power, but the inverter won't let you use it all.

Hallo nach Austalien Was ist das Problem , Deiner Meinung nach , wenn am Pluspolakku immer die höchste Zellspannung zu beobachten ist und BMS abschaltet alle anderen Zellen aber noch lange nicht voll sind . 24 V System jeweils 3x 120 Ah im Pack zusammen zu 24 Volt , Solarladung bis 60 A Welche Erfahrungen hast Du Finde im Netz dazu nichts Danke

maybe try removing the grub screws and putting the conductive grease on the threads before reinstalling them on the batteries?

Andy, There are some things that need to be cleared up. Your inverter is only rated at 2400 Watts. The VA rating is not watts it allows for .8 power factor which accounts for the magnetising current of your motors. I realise other viewers have tried to get this across, it is an important fact to know and understand. Total VA rating is Watts (true power) plus Volt Amps Reactive (VARS). VARS are necessary for any AC magnetic device to operate. The grid is designed to operate at .8 power factor. Now having said that, you will do well to get rid of the box, once you arrange proper air circulation the inverter should run happily enough at 2400 Watts and up to 3000VA. My set up is a pair of Giant brand 4000 Watt / 5Kva all in one units connected and programmed in parallel / load sharing. In theory they should start a load up to 20Kva (approximately a 5 KW motor DOL) on their own, without mains support which they can be programmed for. They will run welders. The installation / user manual gives strict mounting instructions especially around airflow. They recommend wall mounting with 500mm above, 200mm each side and 500mm below for 55 Deg C ambient. This afternoon 64 x 310AH CATL cells, when they arrive I will see how they go. This to upgrade my system from AGM which worked well but has limited cycle availability. I have already taken a variety of Bellville washers into stock for the upgrade project. In case you don't already know Belleville washers are conical springs that spread the force to their rim which can give up to 10 times the effective contact area. I am also considering hardened washers for their electrical contact spreading properties. I also have in stock Utilux H2397 Electrical Jointing Compound (Aluminox) which is certified for jointing of Aluminium electrical connections. The reason my choices are so damned conservative is 48 years as an industrial electrician working with Megawatt class inverters and heavy DC. I will be interested in how your contactor based BMS goes over time. In industry DC contactors are the single most expensive electrical maintenance item, so expensive if fact that on mobile equipment only tyres are more expensive. They are now superseded in new equipment by IGBTs and each day more legacy fleet get retrofitted with IGBTs. Regarding the issue with your Charge controller losing its marbles, I would start at that relay. Your balance lead connections are not at the standard I would accept. Trade quality "Copper Grip" lugs with larger palms are available. When I do mine I will drill and tap the busbar for the BMS connections which will be easier. Do not use cheap "Vinyl grip" lugs. The copper grip design has a double copper sleeve which forms the correct crimp. The cheap crap is for decorative purposes only.

My mate has an Ozito silent shredder ,and he was kind enough to come round to shred some leylandii, in with the odd privet, and a huge amount of bramble . But, anything above 20mm, and it struggled, with meter trips at the mains ,( not solar or battery) with branches slightly thinner than those old dry gnarly knotted branches, you where trying to force through . The Ozito is not brilliant, but its not top brand either . But I'm NOT sure top dollar, bottom end, would fair much better . I think in the main , its for shredding 'fresh' vegetation ,regardless of what it says on the tin . What I think I'm saying is, it's not the battery system , rather the tool for the job .

The inverter is just to small,and yes,the box where it is inside is to small,put it outside or drill 80mm holes and extra fans,I like your experiments very much 👍those batteries have to small fixings there are batteries with M8 bus bar connections

I went two times the size for my INVERTERS for my cabin and for my camper than I need so they don't have to work hard 😎👍🇺🇸

I watch a video we’re a guy said one of his bus bars was faulty. A bus bar that came with batteries. Maybe that’s the same

I know you're set on a closed box with no noise or ventilation but that inverter relies on good airflow at all times. To keep it in that enclosure you're going to have to cut two 120mm openings for two 120mm fans, one intake at the bottom and 1 at the top to have any hope of keeping the inverter operational. If the inverter were mounted outside of an enclosure it would probably give you full wattage. Are you absolutely certain the bus bars are pure nickel-plated copper or aluminum? Consider buying some pure copper bar stock from www.onlinemetals.com - I did that and constructed my own .75 inch x .125 inch thick bus bars that run cool as a cucumber (or night frog in your case ;) ) Using copper ring terminals as opposed to the questionable (tinned aluminum?) version you have would probably eliminate the BMS reading problem Keep up the great videos!

I couldn't help but notice something about your voltage drop: When you measured between a terminal and a bus bar you had it, but when you measured between a terminal and BOTH ring lugs, you didn't. Completely crazy theory here: Could it be, that between the terminal and the bus bars there is a difference in plane, that they are not absolutely parallel to each other? Would explain the behavior you have. If it weren't so much work, I would suggest to change the bus bars for cables with ring lugs, so you can avoid any angle related problems. Maybe you could take that to mind and consider it as a last resort, if nothing else helps. Maybe you could exchange the most bothersome bus bars already and look, if it makes any difference. If yes, you could do the other ones later on. You need to remember: The bus bars are ONE flat piece of metal. In this case, with this short length between contact points, it doesn't like to bend and twist very much, copper or not. With a piece of cable with ring lugs you do not have that problem, as the cable is made of flexible strand material. (I would have written that in German, but didn't want to exclude the international viewers.)

I could not see any ventilation in the box with your Victron equipment. I presume the door is normally closed. Is there any ventilation with the door closed?

Did you put you some grease on them terminals otherwise the oxidation will keep doing that especially in your climate those are not LED they're aluminum

Hallo Andy, zur Erklärung : S1 bzw S2 ist die Einschaltdauer von dem jeweiligen Gerät. S1 = 100% also das Gerät läuft im Dauerbetrieb - hier mit 2000W. S2 = Das Gerät läuft nicht im Dauerbetrieb ( Wechselbetrieb ) - 2400W ...eine genauere Erläuterung findest du in Wikipedia. de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einschaltdauer Grüße Werner aus Süddeutchland

really keen to know if it can handle 3000w for short periods. two 1500w loads turning on and off at different times such as my induction cooktops. I had a mppsolar 2400w unit which would do it. it would flash overload here n there but never overheated or stopped but i wonder if the victron will shut off? Both my mppsolar inverter 2400w and 3000w don't have a heat derating like the victron. they output full load im told by mpptsolar and only shut down if they overheat.

I have a multiplus… I have no plans on running it over about 2000 watts continuous ..If I need more than that I will buy another and parallel them at max 4000….life is all about having headroom…

put an extractor fan at the top of the enclosure

Cool, sunny and a beautiful 90 amps here in Caboolture Queensland. Three phases and 30% oversized.

what are your bus bars made of ? they should be nickel plated copper. dont use aluminum oxidizes instantly

Serrated flange nuts are large diameter and apply pressure at their circumference. Perhaps your bus bars and/or terminals are slightly dished? Bus bars actually only make true contact with about 5% of the area of terminal - and that’s for a perfect joint. Conductive grease is not actually conductive and cannot help improve the 95% area that’s not making full contact. Conductive grease introduces another metal (e.g. copper or zinc into the aluminium / nickel joint which can promote corrosion - particularly in a marine environment - and is therefore not recommended. Dielectric grease is used for un-plated copper busbar / terminal joints because corrosion can occur in the 95% copper not in intimate contact with the terminal; however aluminium terminals do not need grease as their oxidation prevents corrosion. Try serrated nuts and clean, dry and tight joints for consistent low resistance connections.

Have you considered conducting grease like Jet Lube SS30?

what if you put the bms balance cable in the centre of the connection bars so they read the same distance from 1 bank to the other the reading you was doing is not the connection that the diplay was showing to show the display you would have to touch battery terminal and the balance lead

Andy, I have following theory: you should not care about the potential at the bolt, what is important is the potential difference between the aluminium pole of the cell and the busbar and also the ring terminal of the BMS. I think, and again that's just a theory, that the problem is created by the stainless steel washer which is placed between the busbar and the ring terminal. Remember that stainless steel has a lower electrical conductivity than copper.

How about trying copper antiseize? It is contrive.

Andy, as far as the loss between the bus bar in the battery, you may want to use a torque wrench and torque the connection to the factory specifications. That may help?

Told you that would be a hotbox and you needed forced ventilation

Could here your frogs in the back ground 😎👍🇺🇸