How does Vortex have some of the finest high power, insanely robust rifle scopes in the industry while simultaneously having waffle house tier optics with booty cheek reticles as well..........actually, on second thought, that's literally Leupold's entire schtick too. Nevermind
@@oso1165 Not all sig red dots are good, the ones made by holosun for sig are. The romeo zero is the most garbage optic of them all. Lense cleaning wipes made for lenses scratch the lense. And you have to put a shim under the battery so the optic will stay on. One drop and it's done without the optional "Ironside" cover.
@@chaoticcaninejb the Romeo series is solid, from the budget 5 to the expensive 4 and 8 are great. Their new enclosed pistol dot they're developing for the US seems like its gonna be solid too
Went to The Gathering in South Carolina and they had a booth. My buddy and I were talking about the refresh rate, it was terrible. They got pretty defensive about it and said oh you won’t notice when it’s on a gun and you’re shooting.
The “you won’t notice it” comment is kind of silly when you can just buy a red dot where this isn’t even noticeable, and I’m not sure what the selling point of the Vortex is over those other dots.
The usual alternative to PWM for LED brightness control is "constant current" where you regulate the current through the LED. Voltage regulation doesn't really work for LEDs when you're trying to very precisely adjust the brightness.
The refresh rate flicker is my biggest 'nope' for any dot displayed optic. The problem has been solved, so there is no excuse for it. Some people have a brain configuration where they are immune to seeing the flicker, but it's literally the first thing I see if I use an optic with flicker.
It's possible that your eyes are cameras. Your frame rate is out of sync with a particular red dot's typically imperceptible flicker. Please report to the Tyrell Corporation immediately for an optical firmware update.
Thanks for sharing your insight on the Vortex red dot. I will say that I found that Holosun’s customer Service is outstanding. I had an issue with a red dot in which the coating was scratched and they sent me a new optic right away. The best part is that they actually answered the phone. It’s hard to consider anyone else other than Holosun when it comes to red dots. They are the price to performance leader delivering more value than their competitors.
I would say the main issue with holosun is their risers for their rifle dots, are pretty bad. That being said you can easily swap them out for something super nice or for something good enough.
So I have a Sparc AR and a Crossfire red dot and I've honestly never noticed the flicker. They're definitely not aimpoint quality, but I've always found them to be fine and serviceable. And then just out of curiosity, after watching this video I was playing with them last night, and now I can't not see the flicker... Why Hop, why!?
I've been using mine for about a month now and this is literally the first time I've ever heard of refresh rate flicker as a concept. Never thought about it, never bothered me. 😆
On some red dots it's unacceptably bad and some people are just sensitive to it. It's most noticeable when you're transitioning between targets and doing ready up type drills.
@Brayden Kenney I got out my optic check it out, and now I can't unsee it. It's hard to believe I've never noticed it. I think when I transition between targets I usually keep the dot dead center so I've never really affected me. This actually bums me out because I was really enjoying this optic.
@@Reldez_1 I bought one and returned it because it looked like complete ass, but that has no bearing whatsoever on your use of it. If you like it and it works for you, great, enjoy the optic
@Bob Zedler sometimes it's better to not know haha. I have a Vortex Sparc 2 and I've heard some people say they see it with that dot but I never have. I was just doing some drills last night with it and never noticed any sort of trailing or refresh related artifacts.
Vortex is so strange to me. They were pretty innovative 10ish years ago and they seem to have a bunch of smart gun guys working there but they consistently come out with mediocre gear for a mid tier price
Another solid video filled with the right information. No sugar coating on the negatives either. I think people who are shopping for optics with budget in mind should certainly watch your videos first. Even if the price point is good for them. There are still a lot of negatives people really need to consider when going with cheaper optics. Thanks for sharing the info.
I was hoping you'd talk about the polymer insert and reveal whether it's a clever way to enhance durability without getting a nasty letter from Trijicon's lawyers, or just marketing fluff.
Started using this on a glock 43x (3moa). Directly mounted, needed no zeroing, didn't fail after a few hundred rounds. PLENTY bright outside at noon in fl. Racked off items... shot out to 100 yards ringing steel. 200 too, but i just couldn't hold pistol steady enough to ring it. Yes, I see the refresh rate issue people mentioned, but in no way did it cause any issues shooting... I did notice it maybe once, but that's it. We will need battery life. I changed out the no-name battery to a Duracell. My ONLY complaint is, 14 hour auto shut-off? Are you serious? I could get way longer battery life if it just shut off after 10 mins. All that being said... I highly recommend this red dot.
I didn't even know refresh rate flicker was a thing till you bought it up in this video. I'm a fan of this channel though and grateful to have an honest review. Maybe my brain is too slow to process the flicker on my venom.
I can't really see any flicker on my Venom but on the internet I've seen at least one person complain about the Viper's flicker and then say he bought a Venom which didn't have flicker, so maybe it's just a Viper issue. I can notice bad flicker on my Burris Fastfire IV with the auto brightness setting on but it goes away if I put it on any of the set brightness settings.
I didn't hear great things about the auto brightness on the Shield RMSc and having a vortex venom on another pistol that I've been happy with, I decided to try the defender. The venom does not suffer from the refresh rate issue. I'm guessing they had more space to properly implement a different design internally, but you would have thought they could have overcome that in the proceeding years leading up to the defender. Yes, the refresh rate is is very apparent at anything but the highest brightness setting. That being said, I only really notice it if I move the optic around in my hand where the dot is moving around a lot in the window. If I'm transitioning targets, and my view is shifting with the gun/optic, it's way less of an issue. It hasn't gotten on my nerves enough yet for me to consider replacing it, but time and more shooting/competitions will tell on that. I do like the meat tenderizer on the front of the optic, I use it pretty regularly for press checks. It's handy for small guns like the sheild plus that don't have a ton of slide real estate for manipulation... Or I'm just lazy. As for the overhang of the optic on the sides of the slide, I think maybe they did that on purpose to get a larger window. I have a Holosun SCS on another pistol. It fits flush with the sides of the slide, but the window is noticeably narrower. The auto-shutoff function, like hop said, basically means it never shuts off. They need to drop the timer way down for it to be useful at all at saving battery life. But if the battery dies, the cowitness is great and the optic doesn't impede use of the iron sights at all. All that being said, I think if they dropped the price on this optic, it would be easier to consider. $160 - $180 range might be an easier pill to swallow.
The vortex warranty is what they do right. Wouldn't trust them as an EDC. But a fair priced optic with that kind of warranty for range toys, I can't complain. I ran over my venom on a lawnmower. Customer service just laughed and asked for my address. Sent a new one with a return package for the old one.
I like mine.... Have both a 407k and this. This is better than the 407 with my astigmatism. The refresh rate doesn't bother me. Dot is there when i point it at the target. The refresh pattern up until that point for me isn't an issue. To each their own i guess. Low light, in the house, my 407k is a butterfly dot. This, is indeed a nice, red dot.
I had honestly never noticed the refresh rate and was a bit confused. I picked up my rifle with a Vortex viper dot on it and couldn't see it until decreasing the brightness a lot and doing a quick and constant circular motion that I would never do in normal use. Maybe it will be one of those things that I'll continue to notice now that it's been pointed out, but I doubt it. Having done similar motions with other optics, I do now notice the difference where it's a streak instead of discrete dots. Maybe it's just me and my eyes, but I don't see why that's obviously better.
Vortex has one of the best warranties out today. That being said, the Defender adds a shake awake ON with a 14 hr shutdown. They said it was for officers on duty. (That means the optic will be ALWAYS ON for estimated 3-4 days straight) Theres also the chance of hitting that lockout if that left button is pressed against you in a IWB holster when carrying concealed. That can be fixed if Vortex changes to a 2-button activation. Get well soon HOP
You should consider doing a re-review on the newer version, they fixed the refresh rate and its a 10 minute auto-off now. I really wanted a 507k ACSS but I preferred to direct mount so went with the Vortex CCW, the updates make a huge difference. My only gripe is that if you have a setting you like locked in, it unlocks when it sleeps. They should keep it locked until you want it to unlock.
3:45 Got the Sparc Solar as an offset red dot for the Badger C1. No issues with refresh rate. Dot is actually as clear and sharp as my T2. Sage Dynamics has a pretty thorough review of it and touches on refresh rate if I remember correctly.
I have 3 Vortex Venom red dot s. Never had any of the issues on any of them. They are installed on competition pistols amd have performed flawlessly theough thousands of rounds each. Also have a Burris FF3 on a G19. Zero issues with it. Just purchased a Holosun RMSc footprint 407. Having a 1911 slide cut for it. I have 3 Vortex rifle scopes on 3 long range rifles and a Vortex Spitfire 2 red/green serup on a 300BO AR. NEVER any issues with any of them. Pretty much all red dot sights are China made.
Just on battery life. The defender works out to 375 days. I hope you change the battery at least every year. 15,000 hours is 625 days. I would not trust any battery left in my optics for two years and hope it doesn’t corrode in the meantime. All I have to say about battery life.
Good review as usual! I’ll stick with trijicon or aimpoint, less disappointment and I don’t need a good warranty, just a sight that works!! You can have good customer support and still make a crap optic !!
One caveat. Defenders are continually under $200. I got mine for $190 shipped from Simmons sporting goods. Can’t comment on holosun prices lately. I do own all 3. 407/507k. I think they’re all great. Plus I didn’t want to cut my Glock slide to fit a 407/507k. That’s important imo.
I used Vortex; it's not bad optics, but I tend to favor Holosun because of the two moa red dot. I'm not too fond of a three moa, and I want a large enough dot to see the target. Plus, the shake and wake technology, I give the upper hand to Holosun. Great content 💪
I am 78 and still an active shooter. I have about 10 red dot sights. I bought one of these for my TX22 competition and it’s OK. I have sights that I like better, but I am satisfied with this for the application in using it on.
I have a new vortex defender ccw, and the refresh rate and the auto shutoff have been amended. I don't notice any flickering, and the auto shutoff has been shortened to 10 minutes
I posted a video with the same complaints and essentially the same conclusions a few weeks ago. Of course there were a couple people who had the optic coping in the comments saying that none of the issues were valid criticisms. It seems they added a bunch of extras in the package to distract you from the fact that it's worse than its direct competitors. I'm glad you were able to catch the refresh rate on video. As far as why it is like this: The LED takes a certain amount of time to produce light after power is applied to it, and a certain amount of time to turn off. When the LED takes a long time to turn on and off, you cannot use a faster PWM signal because the LED cannot illuminate that quickly and you're stuck with the visible flashing. One way to get around this is to use an LED with a faster turn-on time so you can pulse it faster than the eye can perceive.
"That one semester of microelectronics I took back in high school" Brother what! My highschool didn't have that, I had to pay the college rate for all my electronics classes ..
Ouch that kinda hurt but your review was honest. I got to compare the Vortex Defender Red 3 MOA vs the ESP Carry GR 2 MOA on Saturday. I CCW without a round in the chamber (save it...I have my reasons) so the checkering on the Defender was a cool feature. The EPS Carry 2 MOA dot, green reticle, closed emitter, 25k hrs battery life w/ the 3 to 5 minute sleep timer was the difference in which one I purchased. I hope Vortex continues to develop this optic line to compete with the competition. Because Vortex's customer service is amazing, from sale reps to customer service reps.
Thank you for all of your information and work, you provide so much to the community. Have you ever reviewed the RITON MPRD Gen2? I think for $100-125 it's a decent competitor for these 2 that you compared. I have a couple, one on a 5.5-inch PCC and a 8-inch 300AAC. after a few(350-500) hundred rounds on either, it has surprised my expectations. On a price pont I was considering the 407k for another build but now after watching this, I may reconsider that and continue with what works for me. Appreciate the video.
Would love to see a Promethean LP-1 review. I bought one on the preorder and their drop testing video was very interesting since an eotech broke on the first drop.
Hop, have you tried any of these optic mounts that go in the rear dovetail? For pistols that maybe a person doesn't want to mill out, are these things viable?
I have the 407K and a Swampfox Sentinel and compared it to the Defender while at the LGS/range. Sadly the refresh rate is worse on the Defender than on the Sentinel, though it took seeing the Defender's horrible refresh rate in person to recognize that Swampfox's refresh rate isn't up to par with Holosun either. For those who don't see the issue with the Defender, it's likely because you don't have anything to compare it against.
I mean, it's an ok optic tbh. I think it should be a little cheaper, probably around the $189 mark in my personal opinion. It certainly fares better than the RomeoZero from Sig because at least the Vortex is consistent and it's not made of plastic. The RomeoZero seems to have reviews scattered all over the place. Some people say it's the best optic for the price, other people say it's one of the worst optics you can spend money on. Despite the refresh rate issue though, being able to change the battery without removing the optic is a big selling point for me because I definitely do not want to have to re-zero the optic every freakin time I change the battery, especially since on this particular one, it seems like you might be changing the battery a little more often (yes I know Holosun also offers this feature). At the price point though, it's hard to not just go with a Holosun, they're not that much more in cost even when they aren't on sale anyways.
My experience with Vortex’s warranty and customer service has been vastly different than yours, apparently. I’ve broken two LPVOs from them and… crickets. Going on 2 years with an open warranty claim on one optic at this point.
I don’t know if I trust holosuns battery life quotes anyway (I do carry holosun and like them). I avg about 5-6mo on the 507k circle dot for the last 2 years (I keep track in my phone, and don’t carry it exclusively). It’s fine with me since it starts to slow flicker and I just pop a new one in in the morning. But assuming I was running it 365, that’s at max 4,000hrs? YMMV Love your reviews hop, keep up the dry wit!
They say the battery life is for dot only, medium setting. Circle dot is outputting more, the circle AND the dot. That alone lowers battery life. Depends on red or green LED as well. But best practice anyway is to replace batteries once a year on a specified date. Birthday makes it easy.
My eps carry died within 2 mags on my Glock 48. Sent it in for warranty at the end of January and finally just got a replacement last week. I’ll see how this one fares….
I really wish vortex would fire their engineers who are eating paint and sniffing markers. Who stat down in a meeting and said "hey. We want auto shut off. How long should it stay on?" "Are we going to put shake awake on this product too?" "Yes. It will have shake awake." "It makes sense to me that it should stay on for 14 hours with no motion at all. Because when you get home and go to bed it should be on waiting for you, and it will turn on when you get ready to leave the next day" "Wait... that does not make sense. If it has auto on, shouldnt it turn off after like... 3-5 minutes of no motion?" "Nah, 14 hours is fine. The battery is on top, so it is easy to change."
@@JohnDoe-sx2zk drop your red dot on the ground from holster height and watch what happens. Their reflex sights will hold zero but they have no durability.
If you notice the fresh rate you're looking at your dot, not your target. I think that's backwards and only really shows up in a review where you are staring at it. No one doing practical shooting will notice that.
I feel like the racking off of random stuff is intended for someone with one hand, like IRL situations where you have to hold something in one hand and defend yourself with the other. Could also be if you're injured in your hand and still need to solve the problem.
@@CutlassOutdoors if it wasn't for the fact that documented shootings have happened and required the use of one arm, I guess I could agree with that argument
Injuries, off-hand occupied with other tasks, akimbo wielding (in rare instances), cool factor... there are reasons for racking with the optic, it's the necessity of why you rack it with the optic that matters.
I'm glad to hear that others experience the self adjusting to blank red dots. When I got my red dot for carrying, I couldn't find anything suggesting that it wasn't just my problem and my problem alone. I had to get a leather punch and make holes in my holster where the buttons are
EDC flashlight dorks like me went through this whole PWM vs regulation dynamic a decade ago, and the sort of low-mode LED flicker you’re describing is pretty much confined to $15 keychain lights these days.
I own a vortex viper optics planet edition and I love it, I just wish it had shake awake. I also bought a cyelee green dot and haven’t tried it yet. But I’ve seen the enclosed holosuns suck too. The o rings don’t work, fogs up in rain.
I bought this optic around a year ago for a shotgun and got a good price on it. I have now moved this to my carry gun lits still the same original battery running.not sure how but this red dot is great if you have a bad stigmatism like me.Ive also beat on it quite a bit and it holds zero and seems to take it well. Only down side i have is the 14hour shake awake is rediculous and not sure what they were thinking, and the refresh rate is slow, but it doest bother me until i mess with one of my other dots. Id say if you can get it for $250 or less its the best by far in that price range!
I got one of these on a deal with a Browning Buck Mark...yeah the refresh rate is terrible. Figured I'd get it and throw the optic on my True Precision 43X slide, but nope. Definitely ordering the EPS Holosun
Contact their customer support, somehow you got the old version. The new ones are fine and some people have reported they were able to exchange it for free.
My holosun 407k didn't last one mag with a 22lr. I could turn the dot off and on by flicking it. I had no choice but to go get the vortex at that point. Just ran 500 rds through it without an issue, and I really don't see any kind of refresh rate flicker, but I do see it on my trijicon rcr if it's pointed at a light.
