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Hey, I just want to say thank you very much for making this video. I am in the process of doing this today, I told my dad about this video (he's been in construction for about 40 years - tile is his specialty) and he said everything you said is correct. So, thank you for making great, honest videos. Please keep it up.
I read the tub instructions that came with my new tub and it said to run your wall board OVER the tub flange. Not something I'm used to doing. So I was interested in shim techniques to do that. This video gives a solid argument to continue to do things the right way, thank you!
Hi Bob thank you for this great video. My tub/shower failed & I have scoured the internet to understand this interface between cement board and tub flange so I get it right. While I am generally a DIYer, I had this work done 11 years ago by a reputable 'professional' when I was overwhelmed by my day job. Anyway, the thing I wanted to relate is that he did actually follow your method and the cement board still got soaked. What I wanted to add as perhaps a caveat to your explanation, is that you need to also pay attention to your air block & vapour barrier system. My installation has two exterior walls and I live in a cooler climate. I think I have pieced together what went wrong, and as with most failures, it was a few things. My contractor failed to put a vapour barrier behind the cement board on one of the exterior walls and did not take the time to properly complete/seal the vapour barrier on the other wall. He also missed insulation between one of the stud spaces on one of the walls. He also did not fully seal the penetrations. He did not liquid seal the cement board, which would be ok as long he had used a traditional plastic sheet vapour barrier behind it as per code in my area (cold climate means vapour barrier is on warm side of insulation). I can't say I did an awesome job maintaining the silicone caulking between the tub and cement board nor annually seal the grout lines - although I did both periodically - so I guess I have to wear some of this. Either way, the air seal was incomplete and there were other gaps (ie. at the penetrations) and the fact the tile/grout & cement board is not in itself a total block if unsealed. So I ended up with very, very wet cement board, soaked from the back side where the humid air hit the cold. The epicenter was where the insulation was missing and thus the coldest. Here the cement board warped and exacerbated grout failure (which I tried to repair a couple of times not knowing what was going on behind the wall) - the wetness spread in a cone shape from there. So long story short, I just wanted to add to your good recommendation that the vapour barrier and how you block humid air from going behind your wall (air block) is important to consider. If you choose to liquid seal the tile side of your cement board, this qualifies as a vapour barrier, but then you need to make sure you seal the tub to cement board interface with silicon and also any penetrations, to prevent air getting behind your wall and condensing. If you don't use the liquid seal approach, that is ok too, but then you must install a traditional vapour barrier (ie. plastic sheet) between your cement board and your insulation. The latter seems acceptable by building standards, but I don't like the idea of the water condensing on the plastic sheet if the air block is incomplete, so I'm going to fully liquid seal the cement board and silicone all air gaps. I'm also going to try acrylic grout, which is supposed to not requiring sealing and is less likely to crack over time. The acrylic grout will only be on the walls and not used for shower floor tile (since I have a tub) - where I have seen people report it can fail (ie. if wet all the time). Hope that helps someone.... or perhaps generates some discussion - I don't purport to be an expert and maybe someone wiser or more experienced will correct me - but my contractor certainly failed the test!.... I am still bitter I have to take on this project, not to mention the money wasted on a contractor!
I know this is an older video, but I've been re-watching tile videos again after leaving for a few years from an 18 year run in the basement finishing business I started in 2001 in Chicago. I've cone all my own tile work on bathrooms, flooring and bars for 12 years of that time. I discovered your channel in 2015 on building shower pans. I love your detail and real world experience explanations of how to understand each step of your methods. I've found tile work to be exciting to complete and with the many versions of methods on the proper procedures, its more a challenge to find relatable examples to my own experiences in tile work. Thank you so much Bob for the time you take to help teach real hands on applications for tile methods. I've got 4 bathroom jobs lined up now and one is a large master bath with certain tile requirements that will likely challenge my skills. But that's how we grow in our skill sets, we can't wait for the experience to just find us. It's consistently stepping out of our current comfort skill zones to try new and more difficult projects. With help from people like you and the detailed videos you do, I know I can learn and apply my skills to achieve professional results. Thank you again Bob, your awesome! Dave Another aspiring home remodeler from Chicago
Thank you sir, I appreciate the kind words, yes there are a hundred ways to skin a cat, and thousands of people on RU-vid trying to show you, everything I do is my method and probably quite a bit different from others... But end result should be similar acroos the board
@@StarrTile Bob, I have a material question that I hope you may have some input on. I'm set to begin tiling a tub shower wall job soon. My customer chose a 3/16" (very thin in my opinion for a shower wall application) wavy translucent glass subway tile on a 12x12 approx. sheets for the walls. My thoughts having never installed glass tile that thin, are that possible cracking after curing due to expansion and contraction could occur with thin glass tile. Am I reading to deep into this, also the glass tiles will all have a cut edge for every other tile on them on the outside walls where they meet the transitioning drywall surface. This scenario has a few new challenges for me so any input would be much appreciated. I will have to find a tile edge method to make the edge of cut glass tiles look professional. I doubt my customer asked about the glass tile sheets being approved for wet applications. I'll have to ask tomorrow at the job. Thanks again Bob for your input and great videos. Dave BDI Remodeling
Hey thanks again for posting these videos. I am working on a reefer container tiny home, and just putting in my wallboard around the tub flange, I only put 1 sheet up, and then was like... oh I need to double check StarR Tile. I did it correctly, but it's because I have came back to this video half a dozen times over the years to keep refreshing myself. Invaluable information as always, thanks again!!!
If you had the time, like a DIYer, you could always paint a liquid waterproofing membrane (Red Guard, Aqua Defense, etc.) on the bottom edge of the wall material BEFORE you screw it to the studs. I also coat a few inches on the back side of the wall material with the liquid membrane. No wicking in that case, no matter where you put the wall material, but I still don't put the wall material on the tub deck. StarrTile would say that I am being redundant, but that is OK, because this is the area where the failures always occur. Don't let the wicking even begin.
Your hands are your resumé 👍 thank you for posting this with examples from your experience, I'm setting and tiling around a tub for the first time and I was having a hard time finding out whether to go over or above the lip. What you say, leaving a gap between the board and the lip to prevent mold, makes sense to me!
I’ve watched all the “pros” on RU-vid. And I’m still in the homework phase of re modeling my bathroom. I got to say, I agree with Bob on this. And his method for the backer/ tub flange will be what I follow.
Finally, after watching about 10 videos, I've got the answer I'm looking for. Thank you! I bet that's a Kohler tub. I just had one installed (which is why I'm watching this video about backer board), and the lip on the front (the "wet side") is 2 inches wide, the lip along the side is 1 inch wide, and the lip at the back is 4 1/2 inches wide. _All_ of them have a bullnose design for water to flow into the tub instead of sitting on the lip.
I have done a few tubs and showers in my 50 years in houses. I too stay up on the shower pan lip or tub lip, but I always added a plastic J molding on the bottom edge of any material I was installing, be it greenboard, drywall,cement board,etc. It has absolutely helped protect the raw edge against bad stuff in the future. Thanks for your video and good advice.
I follow your methods but introduce an extra step which only takes a few minutes. Before mounting the green board or cement board , I Red Guard the first 3 inches of the board including the edge on both sides. So not only is the board mounted where you show it, but that edge is sealed
Dream guard shows the cement board down to the lip of the shower pan and not over it, it then shows the tile coming down to the edge of the pan with an 1/8 gap for the caulking, even the manufactures out there are preaching what you're saying....dream guard goes as far as saying to NOT put screws in shower pan lip but instead let the mortar bed and drain pipe, front edge trim, overlapping tile etc to hole the pan in position.
Thank you for answering this question about where to set the wall board. I'll take the advice of experience for what to do and what not to do over textbooks any time. I'm working on a bathroom remodel in a house that's from the late '70's. The walls are close to being plumb. Every wall sits on the edge of the bubble at the line. All wall slope is wider at the ceiling than the tub. I'll need to work on the studs before setting the backer board and sealing. I'm still doing the research to do everything the right way. Thank you for taking the time to teach others through videos such as this. It means a lot for people like myself.
I'm almost ready to durian my tub alcove. I've watched countless YT videos, including the ones shown in this video by others. You listen/watch each independently, and they all sound right. This video is the latest one I watched, and I decided to go with this method. Ill take real world experience and knowledge gained over time over the "book" any day of the week. I'm also going to silicone the gap, even though you suggested it isn't necessary. It didn't sound like it can hurt, might be a waste and redundant but that's alright. I think ill sleep better, lol. Thank you for this. Will be making a donation.
Thank you so much for this awesome video. I learned a lot, I’m glad I took the time to watch your video because I was going to do it all wrong, lol. Again I appreciate you taking the time to educate us.
I am about to do my tub and shower over again. And I’ve been looking for someone who knows what they’re talking about. And you have answered all my questions my friend Great job.
Thank you. I just watched 2 videos showing to sit the cement board on the tub, but the lip seems to be about 1/2" thick, same as the cement board, and if you were to install the board onto the edge of the tub, it will be curved at the bottom.... So many people saying different things. I'm just going to hang the tile down a quarter inch over the lip to cover up the screws.
Glad I watched your whole video.. my decision is made. I was waffling on whether to shim out studs to bring the hardibacker over the lip. The "expert" at Floor and Decor store gave me grief about my decision to bring down to the top of the lip, suggesting the tile would fail. I'm definitely going to tape and thinset the gap and use waterproofing before tiling. Thinking Mapei Aqua defense. Thanks!
Very informative thanks. We are doing my son bath remodel this week so it was definitely informative. Were removing his tub and putting in a shower pan. Using mold resistant rock and the palisades grout-less tile system. New subscriber thanks you much for the timely instruction.
Your description of the proper wallboard setting never gets old. You have mentioned this many times in your videos, yet installers keep making the same mistake over and over. The happy homeowner wonders why, after a few months they have mold along the bottom row of tiles. SMH!!
Just watched your video home built in 1960 have a steel tub doing a bathroom remodel as we speak was thinking first working with go board which seems to be a good product but was originally going to take it over the edge good advice going to go to the lip all makes sense when you think about it the tub manufacturer built that lip so there was nothing to worry about for water leaks basically a built-in pool liner thanks for this great piece of advice
I followed your technique for showwer install and left that 3/8 inch gap at the bottom and red guarded it all so the water will seep out. Makes so much sense.
Thanks! I almost made the mistake of overlapping the lip by following YT “gurus”. Kudos to you for presenting the evidence I needed to avoid making a huge mistake.
What you are saying about how the board should be on top of the lip is absolutely right. It is the best practice, however, in my opinion it is not the splashing from below that causes this damage. The reason the caulking shows mold and mildew and the wall board fails and wicks up water is because of the caulk itself. Any moisture that wicks through the grout work in the tiles above (because very few people actually continue to seal tiles after the initial install) will work its way down the waterproofing layer to the bottom where it gets trapped by the caulk. It just sits there and festers and soaks everything. The mildew in the caulk keeps coming back because it is permeating through from the backside. The absolute best way to solve this almost no one ever does. Don't caulk the seam. Allow moisture to escape and the materials to dry.
Hey Bob! Im a big fan. I just HAD to go and check how my bathtub was set. I didn’t built it. It’s probably 7-10 years old. Maybe more. The results? My tub doesn’t have a lip! It’s squared. So the drywall had to be set on top of it. The results is not too bad. So i guess it’s both techniques. Or neither. I DO have to keep a healthy bead of silicone around the tub. As always. If i ever do this job, I’ll defenitly set it like you do. Cheers Sir!
I see the possible benefit of this, but what supports the grout behind that lowest 1/2” of tile where it projects past the bottom of the green board or Durock?
I watched the “Sal” guy first when YouTubing how to join my tub with the wall and my inexperienced rear knew better than sitting any substrate below the flange🤦🏻♂️. Thanks for the reassurance.
Great video! We are remodeling the bathrooms after a sewer backup and I was trying to convince my contractor that it didn't make sense to me to shim out the boards. I didn't like that it was sitting down by where there would be water. I had to try to argue that I didn't care that the instructions said to lay it down on the pan, I just wanted to do it the other way anyway. SO GLAD to have some backup to my wish to do it this way!!!
Thanks . Very helpful . I'm using solid surface (corian) for walls . I'm now going to put a thin strip of solid surface on the edge, then the wall board on top of the strip . This might work with other waterproof materials creating another waterproof barrier to prevent wicking.
Thank you for this. I just took possession of a place and both bathrooms have the drywall coming right down to the tub. One looks exactly like that tiled wall at the beginning of your video. I called Bath Fitters and mentioned that the people before did that and they replied "drywall is supposed to come down inside the tub lip" 🤦🏻 nevermind...I won't be needing your services. To me it just seems common sense. Water is the most invasive element. No amount of silicone will keep it out.
I bought a Dreamline shower pan last week. The instructions specifically state to put the backer board on top (above) of the pan edge. Not over it - in any way. So it cannot wick moisture up.
Came back to inform that the Craft + Main Shower Base instructions have a big warning indicating your install method is the correct way. It shows a very good diagram with labels, too.
So I tiled my own tub shower a few months ago(it was my first one). The job turned out pretty descent, but I did put the hardiback a quarter of inch above the edge. I wish I would have watched your video first. Even so, I'm not that concerned about it because 1, it is hardiback, and 2 I put three cotes of Redguard on all of the Hardiback. But we will see if it lasts more than 10 years. Oh well, lessoned learned. Thanks for your videos.
Thank you. It’s clear that the board should be just above the lip, but what about the tiles? Set them with a small gap to the edge? And do you caulk that edge or leave it open so any water that does get behind the tiles can drain into the shower?
What would you suggest to deal with a side of the shower pan where we had to chisel out the studs to accommodate the bottom lip (as is shown to your left in the shower pan at 10:40 in the video. I think we should just leave a space and the thinset will fill it in, it's only the very bottom of the tiles so it should be fine I think, but I would LOVE your opinion!
So, Bob, your arguments for cement board being placed on or above the lip, certainly make sense. Throughout all of your videos, you have certainly now driven this good point home. I take it by your foam comment, then, that you could set styro foam wallboard directly on the edge, whether it be a tub or shower bed But, would you?? Even using styrofoam on your walls, though, I would imagine you would still lay your floor tile first, then the wall tile. After watching so many of your videos about elevating the wall panels to avoid water problems, I would probably elevate the foam panels, as well, unless you say otherwise. Good video.
I have rarely used foam panels for my shower builds, but yes I would probably by habit still raise them above the floor, although it's innocuous because foam won't wick up water the way everything else will.... for a tub application like seen on the video I have no compunction about setting it on the edge rather than the lip if it's foam.
@@StarrTile Much obliged, Bob. Love your videos. Sure wish that Google would find a heart and re-monetize your channel. Just made a small Pay Pal donation to show my appreciation for your videos. Just like Justin below, your link didn't work for me, so took your suggestion, went to your main page and found the PayPal icon link.
I just want to put my plan here (doing this in a week) on my tub, I have the Kerdi Board, I will cut out the back 1/4" of the bottom 1/2" of the board and have that go over the flange of my tub. This will still leave a gap, but smaller, and I will use the Kerdi-Fix on the flange to the board meetup in the back. Then I should have more board for my bottom row of my 3x12" tile to fit onto and I believe it will be a cleaner, easier install. Just putting my plan out there since I am using polystyrene board! I think I have done enough research and this is a great plan...
In Michigan code back in the day, the board on top of the lip mostly because it will remain perfectly perpendicular and flush to the wall.. if you put it over the lip, then the board will be shimmed at bottom and not plumb at bottom...it will cause tile to flare out at bottom. The gap is filled with thinset and tiled 1/8" above top of tub. After tile set a while, you create a 1/8" gap under tile by remover thinset out at bottom with your trowel..and just like corners, those gaps are filled with siliconized caulking. BTW, most if not all mold in showers is from the user not cleaning their shower.
I prefer the method of using flashing tape on the lip, up along the studs, running behind cement board, with the cement board sitting on the lip as you mentioned, then redgard on everything. The flashing tape may be overkill, but it never hurts to be cautious.
Will make sure to do this on my project next week. Question I have is, do you think set the backer board and tub after mesh taping or Kerdi sealing them together? Then do you bring the tile onto the edge and silicone underneath the bottom tile to the tub?
Just replaced my own shower after 10 years because of water wicking up through the cement board. It was 1/4" above the flat instead of the lip. 100% agree with you. Capillary action is how trees bring water to their tallest heights. I guess people like to ignore nature's lessons.
My last apartment, they had a handyman re do the tile and this is exactly what happened. plus the faucet control had a leak and it saturated all around. Just curious tho, if you were continuing on this tub install, would you use grout or caulk where the tile meets the tub?
Yes, very very common in apartments, I usually will put in grout, until there is a reason to use caulking I don't advocate for it... although I have done direct caulking in there without grout, it depends on the application I suppose
If there's a possible question you can answer this might be a good one one to think about after my Gold board is up around the tub I didn't want to use grout I didn't want to mess with the saw for ceramic 12x12 squares I was looking at a good adhesion on the go board and a good Armstrong type floor tile easier to go around and cut in tight places and for the three handle fixtures but afterwards could I paint or spray a sealant of some kind over the tile or go in between each 12x12 tile with a sealant where they butt up against each other....?? Thanks
As a painter i have learned a lot about the importance of shedding water properly and giving water a way to escape. It is near impossible to water proof everything. Wicking and trapped water will never dry out. Which gives off moisture (humidity) to the surrounding area = ROT, MILDEW.
I'm getting ready to waterproof and tile. Drywall is sitting on top of lip but shower pan lip is 3/16 proud of the drywall. Should I build up mud so tile can sit above edge with 1/8 gap for caulk?
Your method is consistent with American Standard tubs installation guide. ie set your cement board on the lip or 1/16 " above the lip of the tub and overlap the tile down to the tub edge leaving a slight gap. My question is how does the grout work when overlapping the tile like that. To me the grout is going to squeeze out into the gap behind the tile.
I don't know who else does this, or whether Bob agrees, but I _think_ the Home Renovision guy uses thinset to fill in that space between the tile and the tub that isn't covered by backer board. So when that sets, it will prevent the grout when you apply it from squeezing out. Hope that makes sense.
I've never put wallboard infront of the lip. It always sits ONTOP of the LIP. Maufacturers of tubs state that wallboard be sat ontop of the lip. Never once have I seen a tile crack because of it being on the lip.
Thank you for this video. Never could understand others cuz they would point to nothing specific or shaky camera or bad angle . what kinda material would you put on a shower ceiling that will be tiled? Most videos show walls and floor not the ceiling. Thanks
Hi Bob. You are absolutely right on this. I took out my 35 year old builder grade tub recently that had cheap 4 inch square ceramic tile installed with mastic over green drywall. That tub was used daily for showers for many years by a family of 5. To my surprise there was virtually no water damage or mould behind the tile and I believe it was because the builder installed the drywall on the tub lip just as you suggest.
Getting ready to install a shower pan. I have watched a few of your videos as far as the placement of the wallboard goes. If using durock, do you suggest taping and thin setting the transition from pan lip to wall board? Or just overlapping the tile into the pan?
Hello. I bought a glue on tub surround shower wall. My substrate will be cement board. When setting the wall, what do you recommend for the bottom? Since the shower wall is a thin construction, what can I do where the bottom meets the meets the tub? I was planning to use mesh tape and thinset to finish the gap and provide some 'body' for the wall to paste onto. Another question that's related is how to finish the edge of the shower wall (I didn't consider it before). Would a tile edge work? I feel tile wouldn't give a consistent look. Thanks in advance.
I've watched several of your videos on the topic of NOT resting the backerboard on top of the tub/pan ledge, but rather on or just above the lip. The you suggest not making contact with the tub with the tile either, but rather to leave a gap and not even seal it. Won't that look unfinished? I know it will prevent wicking and allow air to dry whatever water gets on top of the ledge, but I don't think that would look too swell. Do you have a video that shows what one of your finished jobs looks like, specifically the tile to tub area appearance?
I agree. Leave a gap. The bottom line is people dont maintain their shower/tub caulking and end up with problems. Water should never get behind the tile or grout ( sealed). People that dont maintain their stuff alwasy have more problems than those that do. Cars, bathroom tile etc. I always tell my clients if they see any cracking on the corners or along the tub edge address it immediately and they wont have problems.
The more videos I watch, the more confused I get. You make sense. Thank you. Do you agree with applying an exterior window wrap over flange and up the wall a few inches?
It makes sense the water will run down into the lip with no water intrusion. Damn, I think in 2010 installed a 36" shower stall 3 piece tiles ceiling maybe screwed up!
Good video content with an unpleasant twist. So getting down to fundamentals: 1) All wallboard, backerboard will wick unless it is sealed with an elastomer (silicon/redgaurd etc.) ahead of time. 2) you should have an air-gap between any water carrying horizontal surface and the board. 3) you should not have any direct contact between wallboard and water carrying tub flange or lip. The shape of the tub lip suggests the manufacturer intended the wallboard to go inside so that's a bit puzzling. I would be interested to know if you have observed a *properly assembled* (to a known builder's specification) inside-the-lip installation with 1/4" air gap between flange and wallboard. I don't have access to the builder's spec but it looks like they identify various build-ups and it looks like there's membrane specified. After seeing various videos and discussion, my conclusion is to *always* seal the ends of the wall-board no matter what type of buildup-- your friend was essentially doing that by squirting RTV silicon (not acrylic caulk) between wallboard and tub lip. PS: your lived experience is obviously different than other folks with just as much experience (in different climate zones) as you so it's kinda sh*tty to bag on folks without seeing the long term result of their work, specifically. The builders specification was written by someone based on experience, probably like you, so a better discussion would be to challenge the assertion, contact the author of the specification so the code gets fixed then we all win.
What can I buy a cheap fix in my own tub between it and the wall I can use liquid nail to put it down not out to impress anyone just keep the water from running down in there and out on to the floor some kind of flexible stuff plastic or rubber vinyl or I was thinking maybe some L shape crown molding any suggestions would be appreciated
My question is if I do it your way, what keeps the cool grout in place for the portion of the tile that is hanging down below the wall board. There needs to be something behind that grout so that it’s not just floating in the air
The distance is perhaps three quarters of an inch, or even 1" from a typical 12x24 is nothing. Even a 4" tile grabs 3 inches of wallboard, so what's the issue ? Typically the grout is only as deep as the tile anyway. Run silicone where tiles bottom out at tub and that'll add strength too, but I have never encountered a problem.
Like the video, so when laying bottom run do you apply thin set in the 3/4 gap between tub and durarock or just on the rock or whatever wallboard your using?
Hi, what if I am doing a glue on tub surround. My problem is that the front of my greenboard sticks out further than the tub flange. The plastic tub surround allows a lot of flex making it almost impossible to caulk. Should I fill it in with caulking prior to give the surround something to push against. Thank you!
Is it ok to leave 1/4 inch over the lip? A guy at Lowe’s to leave 1/2’ over the lip. That’s a little too much i think.Thanks for the video. Glad i bumped into it
Hardie Backer suggest keeping an 1/8' gap everywhere. With that being said would you keep it an 1/8'' above the lip? How do you waterproof that area between the top on the lip and the board? I saw other videos where they used a stick on ice and watershield what are your thoughts on that?
Having an 1/8 gap isn't a bad idea... there always be slight movement with material... and yes you could fill in that Gap with something so it makes it easier to waterproof but honestly if you're getting that much water onto your wall you're doing something wrong to begin with. The biggest issue with having your wallboard touching the edge is wicking of moisture into your wall board, if it's raised above the edge to the lip then you're not going to have any problems.
No not Jeff too! 😆. Seems to me the best practice would be to just red guard the base of the wall board before installing. Just like priming exterior wood before installing.
