From 1976 -78, I worked on the Norton Rotary project in England. The Norton Rotary was based on the Sachs/Hercules design (in fact, Norton actually bought the machinery to manufacture the rotors, side and center bulkheads, the epitrochoid cumbustion-chamber "engine-blocks", and similar parts from Sachs about 1977. Those manufacturing tools are still being used to build the aero-drone engine, developed from the Norton motorcycle engine, that's being sold for military use today. We had one of the W2000s that we used as a test and comparsion motorcycle. It was great fun to ride, although *very* slow and underpowered. They advertised it as 30 Hp but they admitted to us that it would only make 26 on a dyno (using the dyno fan for cooling) -- the cooling fan used 5 Hp so it only put 21 Hp on the ground. But it was a favorite around the shop to ride because it was so light and had such a low center of gravity. You didn't have to worry about using the twist-grip -- you just held it full open and steered it around the little country lanes like you were riding a moped. It was definitely one of the most fun motorcycles that I've ever ridden. When we developed the first Norton twin-rotor motorcycle to a stage that it performed well and was reliable, the chief engineer and I took it to Sachs in Schweinfurt for demonstration to the Sachs engineers (I rode it, the engineer drove his car with blueprints, parts, sample gear). We went out for a test ride -- the Sachs chief engineer, their head test rider, and I. They had a Hercules and also a Kawasaki 500 Triple test bike. I did a little demo for them and then we went out for about a 40 mile ride through the countryside around Schweinfurt and Fulda. They switched back and forth between the Norton and the Triple and I did my best to keep up on the Hercules. Then we got on the Autobahn and came home at 125 Mph - well, actually, the Norton came home at 125, the Triple at 110, and the Hercules and 72, but we got home. The Norton, which was basically two of the Hercules engines stacked together, was good for about 65 Hp even at that early stage of development. Their chief engineer got off the Norton when we got back to the factory and said "I expected it to be good, but this is perfect". We had a temp probe near the spark plug and the exhaust port (hottest part of the engine) and the Sachs riders were amazed to see that at 125 Mph, the Norton had lower temperatures than the Hercules at full throttle -- which was NOWHERE near 125. Those were good days.
Amazing story. Thanks so much for sharing the details. I've not ridden a Norton rotary. They also look great. Hope to ride one someday. Thanks for sharing your experience with us!
Thank you for that story. Indeed the Norton is an amazing machine considering the factory was working on a shoe string but some fantastic engineers. I have just come back from touring Northern Spain two up on my Norton Commander. I had to switch the fan to run continuously at times on very slow high altitude twisty slow bits. But after this trick the bike ran faultlessly. The other thing is it didn't like 10 miles of rolled off throttle on steep descents. I experience some plug fouling on left rotor. I modified by riding by occasionally de clutching and blipping the throttle this solved the problem. It's forte is clear high speed roads. The Yamaha forks and brakes are a little crude. But when you have been used to Italian brakes and suspension as on my Guzzi's you will see why. The bike is a credit to it's creators.
Hello! I am a writer and your story has given me a lot of inspiration. I am a rotary enthusiast and have been doing my best to plan out a book on rotary engines, specifically their applications in motorcycles as well as some other vehicles. If you would be interested I would love to have an interview so I could learn more about your time and experience!
First .... A tight salute to you. In 1977 when I was born and mostly in my mother's arm, you were doing things that I desired all my life to do. . At 46.5 age, I feel proud to see what you did vs my life, that did nothing as interesting as what you have done. 🙂🙂🙂
@@Crime_Maaster_Gogo That's kind of you to say. I've been really lucky in my life -- and I think a lot of it was that I wasn't reluctant to ask for a job. A couple of times I was hired as a temp and 'just stayed on". Other times, it was clear that I had experience or knowledge. I had to go poor sometimes to build up reasons to get hired but it was a good investment. I hope that you can work into some really exciting and fulfilling work. And thanks again, you make me realize how lucky I have been. Bb
Hi there. Both good bikes. However, I would like to say I have owned and ridden continuously 4 RE5 rotary over a 9 year period. In NSW Australia. at that time I was known as “the Rotary man”. (and nothing to do with Mazda). The RE5 were a touring bike. “2 UP plus 60 kg of gear” all day, every day, or solo in the city is just not a problem! In the 70,s they were the best handling Japanese bike of that time. CORRECTION: 1. Never were these a “problematic” bike. These bikes are largely running to this day on original.never opened.”lead cashe’ “ sealed engines. As was from the factory. 2. these kick start easily as did the sister ship GT750 ( I owned 6 of these). 3. You NEVER rev a cold rotary engine. 4. Yours is clearly still in a poor state of tune. There are few people around now who can truly tune these engines. (Easy if you have two things, the appropriate carburettor synchronising tools, and the know how. These were ahead of there time , sophisticated, reliable touring bikes. Hercules,DKW are lots of fun, lightweight chainsaw technology. Norton and Van Veen also excellent, and stood the test of time. As an owner of multiple of these bikes and over many years my opinion only. Thank you.
My dad has an RE5 and the previous owners revved the heck out of it, and thus pretty much destroyed the engine. Compression is pretty much gone in 1 ''cilinder'', only half is left in another one and only 1 has good compression. He also tells me its a really heavy bike to ride, so that's why it sits in the garage all of the time. When he bought it he was thinking about buying a Motoguzzi, these days he wishes he did even though he doesnt think the highest of Italian engineering so that says a lot🤣 He does have a NSU Konsul which he rides most of the time, very reliable bike. The 2 of us are actually fixing up and mounting a Steib sidecar to it
This brings back fond memories. The only vehicle I ever bought new off of the show room floor was a Hercules W 2000 in 1976. It was a black '76 so it had oil injection. I sold it in1987 to a bike collector in Middleburg, Ohio. I got 100 bucks for it. Oh, what a mistake that was!!! I got to know the bike inside and out and had the engine apart two or three times to clean the carbon off of the side and apex seals. I went 19 years without riding motorcycles until 2006 when I bought an '88 Honda Hawk GT which I love and will never sell. I'll be 70 on my next birthday.
As a Hercules dealer in Canada I took the first Wankel delivered to my shop for testing.That model had no e-starter and only one exhaust.Starting it with the kickstarter proofed not to simple so I installed a LECTRON carburettor and wow what a difference it made.Easy starting and a lot better gas milage.The engine begun to rev so much easier.The book ask for a mix of 25-1 but I used always Opti 2 oil mixed 80 - 1 and the engine liked it.I owned the Herc for 2 years before a WANKEL collector from the USA bought it and I understand it is in a privat museum.
I will try reducing the oil/gas mix. I agree that 25:1 which is what the manual calls for, is a lot of oil. I will try 40:1 in the next mix. You're also right on the carb. Its fiddly and always requires a little bit of choke to run. I should probably also check the ignition timing again too. Thanks Helmut!
I remember when the RE5 came out and you couldnt get me to buy one for anything; now of course I would love to have one. That Hercules has a peculiar sound but the Suzuki actually doesn't sound too bad.
I was a Suzuki dealer in the 70s and rode the RE5, I really liked it and it went like stink.. One was entered in an endurance race & I believe won by Miles
The Hercules sounds nice when your riding it. I can imagine it’s fun to ride also. The Norton story is interesting. I remember seeing Trevor Nation racing one. Back in the 70’s I went for an evening ride in Kent with a friend who had an RE5 rotary. On the English model the indicators looked like oranges 😊. I will never forget that ride. The engine crackled as it cooled. Love the videos.
The RE5 was only sold for two years. A complex answer to a question no one had asked. I mean...just look at that carburetor...FIVE throttle cables?? Ahhhhhh! 🤯
Perfect response! I have spend many hours with a special protractor trying to get all the throttle cables just right. Hard to believe Suzuki put so much into this project. A fun bit of history.
The Hercules styling looks similar to a BSA Rocket III, in particular the shape of the side covers and the rear of the seat. Overall it’s a much better bike. Less complicated and much prettier. The Suzuki looks like it was designed by three competing teams of engineers who never met each other.
I agree Ronan. Its amazing the RE5 made it into production. Some heads must have rolled at Suzuki once it failed in the marketplace. Thanks for watching! -Kirb
yes it does have that Brit bike look to it. My impression upon seeing it was of one of those WW2 production and postwar Matchless bikes. {the GL3 something or other like that I think} Really nice video introduction to these two rare bikes.
No matter which is the best, both are true works of art, they are amazing machines, in the 70's the designers of these motorcycles were geniuses and they did everything with paper and pencil, not like now a pure computer.😎😎😎
I attended Suzuki factory school for the RE5 in the winter of 75 ... one full day on the carburetor .In the summer of 75 I pdi'd a Hercules 2000 but never got to ride it ..As an aside why not have a machinist fab up a bleeder for that front brake ? yesssshhhh :)
@@cramersclassics Actually it was the winter of 74 that I attended the course . It was 3 days and one as mentioned was devoted to the carb alone. Now 45 yrs later I dont really recall to many details ... I do remember joking with my buddy .. "its a one barrel mikuni" :) the entire concept was alien to us . Wankles didnt have a good reputation. Anyhow I never took up employment with that dealer . After that went to an all makes service shop. I think they only sold 2 of them in the city I lived. A good friend was the head mechanic at the dealer and I DO remember him telling me about the recall to remove the second set of points ..... WHAT ??? He called them "boat anchors" :) .... anyhow I really enjoy your videos .. most the bikes you feature are what I cut my teeth on ... its a walk down memory lane. Thanks !! PS on a side note I remember unpacking the Hercules 2000 rotary .... we all stood around looking at it ... one of the guys called it a " German electrolux" :)
You're right Dave. The original models featured an instrument pod that flipped open. Suzuki went back to round gauges in at attempt to make the RE5 seem more mainstream.
A friend of mine had a W2000. Back in the days, the W2000 outran every 750ccm bike up to aprox. 100 km/h. The acceleration is enormous! The frame, btw, was designed by Fabio Taglioni from Ducati.
@@JETZcorp Good point! My apologies: I was talking about 4-strokes.The H2 was built by Kawasaki for one main reason: to be the fastest accelerating bike on the market. With emission restrictions coming up, they saw the chance to break this record. And did. I was rather talking about the (more usual) Honda CB 750 ot Suzuki GS 750. As a four-stroke, Kawasaki back then had the Z 650. At least when unexpected, the had no chance. I was riding that W2000 with the former owner of my BMW R75/5. He was riding his old beemer. @60 km/h: one nod: "full throttle!" I shifted down one gear. From the BMW I heard: "klack, klack". 2nd gear! And the Hercules pulled away with such an ease! But that is just my personal story.
What with 27hp? Cmon mate your 'avin a laugh! w2000 20kw/180kg wet = 0.111kw/kg CB750 51kw/233kg wet = 0.219kw/kg. CB750 more than double power to weight. That difference would easily overcome any other variables. 'Enormous' cmon.
@@marcinos303 actually is very simple rotary has less moving parts then a piston engine timing is based on the sized of the port vs a piston based engine u need to mess with the cam shaft so ur right its is simple and its also a 1 rotor even more simple
Never seen either bike here in the UK. The only time I have seen a rotary engined bike was in my mirrors as a Norton Police bike was chasing me. Unfortunately he only caught me as I had to slow down for some roadwork traffic lights. 1988 but it still seems like yesterday. The Norton was certainly quick enough. A work mates son was working for Norton until they recently went out of business.
@Cramer's Classics the Norton certainly was a quick race bike. Their racing team from 1989 - 1992 was able to compete with all the top Japanese teams winning the 1992 Senior TT and finishing second in the Formula one race the same year. All the race bikes are now sat in the National motorcycle museum in Birmingham in the UK. Just a shame the police bike was not in there that Sunday afternoon in 1988. Blue flashing lights at 100mph not exactly good for your licence. It kept up with my GPZ1000 so no slouch. Luckily got away with three points on my licence and a slap on the wrist. Police do not use them these days but still hide behind walls keeping a watch out for you!
A low backpressure in exhaust helps in RCE efficiency. Add a Reed Valve after carb, on intake plate entry hole, you'll be impressed by results. A round body, 32 mm, as to fit the duct, two blade cage is best. Carbon fibre reeds avoid dangers of a metal part entering working chamber, but half life is shorter, 8'000 km vs 15'000 for metal. Same would apply to the Suzuki RE-5, but it has three intake ports, the main, and two small, opening later in Apex seal track, for idle. Kawasaki Patent US3848574 deserves consideration also. Blessings +
"I'm pretty good at kickstarting." **proceeds to hit it with his purse** xD just bustin man, great video, great examples of both bikes, well done and thanks for sharing!
Think I bought the first RE5 sold in N.C. in 1975, not sure though. Loved the bike. Handled very well for a bike that large in 75. Made an unusual exhaust sound. I ordered the matching fairing and saddlebags after a bought the bike. As I recall, maybe not the best gas mileage. Think less than 40 mpg. A couple of issues I had was fouling plugs on hot days. Always carried spares. Also, this was in a small N.C. town with a small Suzuki dealership. I was surprised to find they had one in stock. Their mechanic went to the factory school to learn how to work on it. Maybe that was required by Suzuki to be allowed to sell the RE5, but not sure on that, but that mechanic hated to work on it. To many cables to the carb he always complained about. Only sold it because I was transferred to Hawaii. ( U . S. Coast Gurad) and could only ship the car. Looked for another RE% over the years. Most had major problems and not in the best shape. The nice ones I found were between $8K to $10K USD. I could afford maybe $6k now if roadworthy. But I doubt I could ever find some dealership that could service it. Thanks for posting the video.
The RE5 certainly looks like all the 'GT'series. A mate owned the GT750 triple or "kettle"as they call them this side of the pond. I rode a GT185 back in the mid '80's and it looked just the 250 and 550 two strokes. The only other Wankel engined bike I can think of is the Dutch "Van Veen" from the mid '70's. Rare as hen's teeth but remember seeing one in a book as a kid.
Yes, I think the RE5 had some common GT parts like brakes and controls etc. I've owned a GT250 and 500, both really fun and smooth bikes. Never owned a GT750 triple. We call the Water Buffalo here. Cheers, Kirb
Well, i think that there are a few things incorrect in your description of the RE5 bike. For one the RE5 pictured is not a 1975 bike, unless it has been painted and reinstrumented. Black was not an original color for 1975. The instrument pod, taillight and color are a later year when Suzuki got feedback that the bike was too futuristic, so Suzuki replaced the items in pointed out with a set of GT750 instruments, turnsignals and taillight. Nice bikes but a nicer house.
Suzuki had trouble selling these and some had the lights and gauges changed to look more conventional. My title says 1975, but it has been repainted so you may be correct!
You're right Dave. The Suzuki is complicated, but still pretty cool. A lot more to maintain. I chasing down a leak in the oil injection pump now. Thank for watching!
I have a Hercules W2000 that I bought with 1,400 miles, repainted the tank in red again, replated the chrome it is fantastic to ride, handles well, brakes well sounds so funny what a great machine. Premix oil simple air cooled light fun bike totally agreed its the most fun to ride. BTW drop that tick over down its crazy high, means you cant flip through the gears as well.
Buddy I'm rebuilding a 75 with the can instrument cluster and it's metallic blue she has 26k on her. Watching you rip on yours I can't wait to get her running she's my baby she's not my first rotary but my first rotary bike. I've owned a 85 fb RX7 12a bridge port with DCOE side draft Webber carbs and 5 speed transmission and a 2008 RX8 6 Port 6 speed manual. so carbs and rotary engines no problems here but locating the discontinued parts is not easy lol but I will not give up on my re5... Suzuki please bring out replacement parts I don't care what they cost I'll buy it I want my re5 to run again 😢 darn ngk not making plugs anymore and I can't find a dead one to make a sleeve or a premade one for the Yamaha R1 Bike. I have so many Rx7&8 plugs but there to big 😅 also need a seat I bought the bike for someone that was working on selling her off as parts and I stopped the madness and bought the whole girl from him even said when I was loading her in my truck that he cant hurt you anymore. I will fix her at all costs. She will not go softly into that goodnight but will rise from the ashes like the Phoenix she is a blue fiery Phoenix. If you can help in any way I'd really appreciate it I love the video p.s 😢 even just a seat pan I know how to reupholster.
Enjoyed the video but the slow revving of the Suzuki is because it's in a poor state of tune. Evidenced by it's reluctance to start among other things. Needs a bit of tweaking. Don't feel bad re the kickstart, took me 40 years of ownership before I could kick it. They are notorious that way. PS The DKW is hands down the better venture in Rotary motorcycles but the RE5 is so interesting. Agree with your conclusion, buy one of each.
Great video, thanks. I was surprised that they sound like two-strokes. Expected they would sound more like a gas turbine. One criticism...please add captions when the bikes are running, I couldn’t hear a word you said.
Hercules: 250 riders got a rotary Suzuki: Goldwing riders got a rotary It's a shame no one seemed to look at the Wankel they way they looked at medium-size 2-strokes. Light and simple, but powerful too. I'd like to have seen what the lunatics at Kawasaki would have done.
Norton made a damned good job of them in their motorcycles road and race as did Mazda in their cars, problem with their use as a racing motorcycle is their true capacity which in general is 3 times what the manufacturers claim they are.
@@georgebarnes8163 The 3x capacity thing is a bit misleading. The rotor does have 3 faces, but it takes three rotations of the crankshaft for all of them to complete a cycle. In that way, measuring displacement by a single face makes them directly analogous to a 2-stroke. A 1.3L rotary makes just the same power (with a similar curve) as you would expect from a 1.3L two-stroke. Calling it analogous to a 3.9L four-stroke is no more accurate to the mechanics of the situation, and I'd argue it's much more misleading than the current way of measuring rotaries.
@@JETZcorp Not disagreeing with you, the powers that be decided that the engines should be measured in swept volume thus killing of the rotaries in competition which was a real shame as they brought something new to the party.
Hi there, both are beautiful bikes man, I wouldn’t turn my nose up at any one of them. They are both amazing. You are a very lucky guy to have the bikes you have. 😎👍👍👍 Ps......have you ever done a video of all of you’re bikes, that would be amazing
Nice review, both unique bikes, I seem to remember here in the UK when the RE5 came out here around 1976 it had a different instrument binacle, it had the instrument readouts in what resembled a coke can. Peter
Yes, those were the original gauges designed to look futuristic. Suzuki changed to standard round gauges in an attempt to make the bike look more traditional as sales were poor. The change did not help much and the bike failed to sell and almost took Suzuki down with it.
Late 74-75 bikes have the "cool" gauge cluster in 76 they got gauges from the 750 waterbuffalo parts bin...in America anyways....from Wyoming USA 🔫🤠🇺🇸p.s. I have a 75...
Pand: I remember them! I bought the sister to this in 1977... a Suzuki GS750 DB model. It was £44.44 per month out of my Dockyard wages after a part-ex of my ‘76 Kawasaki KH250. I still wonder why, well over 40 years on, the GS never developed a cult status like most of the 1970’s bikes. But then you are looking at the guy that bought an SP370 instead of the XT500 after the GS was reduced to a heap of scrap by a MK111 Cortina driver.... Halcyon days!
@@PhilbyFavourites in America the gs has a cult like following just like the kz, and xs's do!! .....from Wyoming USA 🔫🤠🇺🇸p.s. stay safe and healthy everybody GOD BLESS ❤
Suzuki nearly went broke trying to fix the rotor tip seal wear issue. Years later, Norton took a look at the problem and fitted soft seals rather than hard seals. No more wear problems.
Rotor tip seal wear was never an issue on the RE5. That's a myth. They struggled with carburetion, that's true. They lost a stack of money because it didn't sell and they'd spent so much R+D and marketing on the model. Nothing to do with wear. There are several RE5's with more than 150,000 miles on original engines. It's the least problem they had.
I had the chance to buy a Hercules [called DKW in the UK] In around 1981, it was band new but the shop could not sell it. The list price was £1200 but he wanted only £800. I thought about buying it but Wankels were so weird I did not buy it. Who would fix it? and where would you get spare parts?. I wish I had bought it now just to say I had a Rotary.
Hey , Suzuki now is the time to bring back the Wankel it looks to be the way to go now, as you know everyone is trying to do something different for the future. Jeff Cagle
@@cramersclassics No sorry I don't, wish I had. The Norton Rotary was quite successful in the UK round about 1992 winning the Isle of Man TT and The British Super Bike Championship.
Norton RCW588 lots of video's on yt ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xLQQyAuXiAM.html and this one road use ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LHLQxmbDUp4.html
Nice piece Kirby, but if it was a true wankel war then you should have at least mentioned the Van Veen also produced and shown at the Cologne bike show in 1974, just for performance statistics. It was very fast, very expensive and sold only a few. But in any event much as I love Suzuki, the Hercules probably takes it as an all round practical bike. Keep them coming.
You're right Ian. Norton also made a rotary for a short time. I would love to have included them. Can your please get me one of each and bring them by :-) Cheers, Kirby
the Suzuki has the wrong tail light and dash cluster? should be tubular and the cluster should have a greenish clear half round cover that flip sup upon start? handlebars are wonky on the suzuki
The 1976 model did have gauges similar to the GT's. People didn't care for the spaceship cluster, so Suzuki went to conventional styling in 76. I have a w2000, and RE-5. Some day they will both run again.
The Van Veen was only for the rich, in 1978 it cost £10k here in the UK to buy one, it was the world's most expensive motorcycle at that time. I used to have a poster of a Van Veen OCR 1000 with Debbie Harry sprowled across it.
Yepp! The last try of Herkules in the 70s. But they, unfortunately, had no chance. Because the Japanese bikes was just too cheep and too good. And the german gouvernement didn´t protect the German motobike producers, like the american did with Harley. But the VDO - water clocks... Omg! And what about the Suzuki cockpit, it´s not original, is it?
Sounds like the timing is too late on your RE-5 or the mechanical advance isn't working. It should free rev a lot quicker than that.😉 There's a young guy here on RU-vid that built a go-kart with one of those Hercules W-2000 engine & trans., and once he pulled the engine apart and cleaned it up inside and replaced the apex seals, he finally got it running and it turned out to be quite the little rocket.😁 I think he used a Mikuni carb on his and built a custom exhaust and silencer for it. Here's a link after they got it fairly reliable, out doing some speed runs - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-vA_SnqAKw-g.html Enjoy!😉
Hi Dan, I believe the timing/advance is correct on my RE5. But I will re-check. The tricky part seems to be the timing on the secondary in the carb and the rotor port. The port valve on the rotor housing opens via a vacuum solenoid along with the carb. The only way to time them to open at exactly the same time is with the engine running and lots of adjusting. I've got it pretty close but its not perfect. They originally came with acceleration and deceleration points (two sets). Later on Suzuki told dealers to remove the second set, which are gone on mine. I saw the first rotary Kart video and enjoyed the update! Those guys are very creative. The transmission was made by KTM ("KTM" is cast into the trany case). Thanks for your ideas. -Kirby
@@cramersclassics I've seen/heard a couple others in person, and usually they will lope at an idle like a peripheral port 13B, if the timing is right. It doesn't take much, maybe a few degrees... AND I've run into several bikes that the marks were actually off a bit in relation to the eccentric shaft, due to machining differences. Just something to keep in mind when you go back into it. Thanks for the reply.😁
Suzuki...yikes! Talk about a bike that should've never been made! Then, to double, triple and quadruple-down for years! The epitome of kicking a dead horse.
Oh Mann..... unzuverlässige Technik im absolut geschmacklosen Design. Man könnte fast glauben die Entwickler haben für die Konkurrenz gearbeitet. Wenn man dieses....... Ding ......neben eine Honda CB oder Yamaha RD aus der Zeit stellt, dann wird einem schnell klar was ich meine :- ). Und dann noch der Preis, für.......lächerliche Leistung, hohen Spritzverbrauch und geringer Zuverlässigkeit. Kein Wunder das Sie kaum einer gekauft hat. Schade um die Marke, der NSU RO 80 sah wenigsten noch gut aus. Fazit: der Wankel Motor brachte das Ende für mindesten 2 Deutsche Firmen. Na wenigstens hat der Wankel, Mazda nicht geschafft.
