War Thunder's APS Problem 

I was gonna go with the AW idea, limited charge and CD on it, for sure both games are different (HP vs realistic damages) but I don’t think it would be that unfair to the player who launched the missile. Just a thing to take into consideration for them, like when I was playing AW

Plus the systems would need to be tied to velocity of the rounds i think, although i don't think anyone has info on that. Plus there's that "can stop sabot" argument (hence why i kinda hate that part of APS in AW, its tied to the caliber of the round, not the speed it goes, rounds that are => 100mm get intercepted)

I'm playing AW currently and apparently there is a thing called "Super Hark Kill APS", with them stopping every round above autocannon caliber Back when it was first released, it was always active and intercepted basically everything shot at it until the APS was completely depleted, and that was a big problem back then. So they changed it so it occupies an ability slot that would otherwise be used for a different ability (or infantry deployment since that's a thing) and only stays active for around 3-5 seconds (idk the exact time) after which the ability cools down for over a minute while the APS cools down like usual for about 20 seconds.

@@boymahina123 first, hey, second 20 seconds for "next-gen" trophy, 60 for afghanit on T-14 and T-15

@@Juozapas001 oh yeah i havent got to the afghanit equipped tanks yet

I didn't face any BRENUS until I started spading the FV438 Swingfire, my unluck is surreal.

I just played the Brenus this morning, and played exactly as you mentioned. it went surprisingly well (only getting killed in the closing stages of the game by a G91 revenge missiling me)

It's at a br where ERA and softkill APS still matters, you feel the difference when you compare uptiers and downtiers. And you can have quite surprising survivability when the enemy is only flinging ATGMs and HEAT your way.

Strangely for me I get killed a lot by rockets in brenus. The APS just doesn't work for me most of the times

@@georgehuser4711 It doesn't block all missiles, only certain types, TOWs and Khrizantema missiles won't be blocked. Two of the most common ones.

Oh yeah true, it was hilarious when i found that out. It was also annoying as hell to have to put five billion rounds into an enemy or pray for APFSDS to make it through.

Sadly at that time I had no idea on wtf I was doing in tanks so I didn’t play that even , pretty sure I would have enjoyed it now.

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Ew

@@d1d4ct85 195 thumbs up and 1 dude grossed out? I can live with those numbers 😂

@@A407RAC boomer moment

I really don't see the issue in certain vehicles with certain upgrades getting rated a BR higher, or more specifically, a vehicle without a certain set of upgrades getting rated lower. Some vehicles are just utter garbage until you research certain upgrades. Looking at you, everything with APCR as stock...

@@MrBlueBurd0451 the BMP-1’s ATGM upgrade could put it atleast .3 br higher in my opinion

I honestly feel that some ammunition upgrades should change the BR of tanks.

it's so bad with stock heat rounds for russian high tiers, just unplayable

@@andrewe.2464 I barely use it and kind of feels underwhelming but I’m not very good at the game. But with that said, ATGMs feel kind of useless unless your target for some reason can’t shoot you first. That’s just my opinion.

Add PL to it and it will be fun

@@LarryPigeon1 pl should be 11.0

Yes , T-10M with a 6 barreled 7,62 MG firing at incoming missles !

@@cristobalalvarez5491 10.3 should work when they tweak it to 12% constantly

@@cristobalalvarez5491 lol PL stands for packet losses and not polish i guess here.

Or Russian optics. I swear those fuckers are made of black holes. I can hit the turret cheek and have the drivers optics absorb the entire thing.

@@hunglikeahorse120 Ive seen a t34 optic absorb an entire shell from a flak 88 and turn orange. I still have the screenshot somewhere too.

@@hunglikeahorse120 optics ports in general are ass, I once had a jumbo survive a shot from a sturer emil because the shell was a bit high and the driver periscope munched the entire 128mm shell

Top mounted machine guns still don't have proper animations so that'll be a while

@@Just_A_Random_Desk WT is not great with tank animation, but they surely can make APS explosion look cool

i didn't get it

Sad Rooikat MTTD noises.

AMX-13-75 SS11 are you sure ?

@@ivanmonahhov2314 I wonder if they know about the Strv 81's heh.. all three SS.11 carriers.

Guess because on real MTTD APS was a non-functional mockup. It's Gaijin, go figure. Still baffles me that they chose straightforward upgrade (105) as a premium and added balls-to-the-wall prototype as a regular tech tree vehicle.

@@CRL_One their policy of locking things behind a paywall and not selling things at top tier which the MTTD is at.

@@CRL_One while yes the prototype had a mockup, the aps existed and is sold internationally. Its like saying the panther 2 IR sight shouldn't function. When other hardkill is added to the game I will 100% send the bug report with detailed info on the APS (if the MTTD doesn't get access to it's own that is)

It's actually an (accurate) model of the non-functional APS that South Africa had on it. They never actually ended up developing it, but that placeholder was put there.

@Jack der Hauptsturmführer no not the Abrams mission bro lol, the squad mission were a t90 with red eyes just appeared out of nowhere, it’s on RU-vid.

@@Josh_Exitcamper and gets destroyed by abrams

@@cristobalalvarez5491 I have the m1a2 too…but I prefer the Soviet look, bro…my only gripe is the reverse speed lol

@@Josh_Exitcamper but the t90 has a weak turret

@@cristobalalvarez5491 its not about how good it is, its about how cool it looks

Good luck against mbt's modern enough to have hard kill in a Type 60 :D

I dont think it works like that...but yes I agree

AW’s are also modeled incorrectly, they don’t stop rounds from guns let alone APFSDS. Also if you look closely the charges vary and are inverse to the cool down time. Iirc Trophy aps only has 6 charges but a 4 second cool down and Afghanit has like 20 but a 22 second cool down.

@@92HazelMocha I don't know about the APS modelled in AW, but some of them might be accurate in being missile-only. Not all APS are effective against gun-launched shells. It's generally only the newest systems that are reliable against APFSDS, similarly to how earlier ERA systems had little to no effect on kinetic rounds. Drozd, for instance, was the very first hard-kill APS ever produced and fielded on a tank, and had a set range of velocities that it could respond to. All ATGMs and rockets of the time were within that range and would be destroyed, but many contemporary HEAT-FS rounds (e.g. those of the 105mm L7 and Rheinmetall 120mm L/44) were too fast for it to handle. '50s and '60s HEAT-FS was usually low-velocity enough to target, but even at Drozd's time of introduction its effectiveness was primarily against rockets and missiles, not tank shells. The systems that came after did a lot better on that front, but it wasn't an instant jump from only being useful against rockets/missiles and older chemical rounds to being able to swat anything out of the sky. As we've seen with ERA like Kontakt-5, stopping kinetic rounds takes a more complex approach that typically involves hitting at an angle and destabilising the projectile, so a lot of APS between Drozd and modern systems like Trophy still can't stop APFSDS. Arena, which replaced Drozd in the 1990s, has a much better arc of protection but still has the same 70-700 m/s velocity range for projectiles it can stop, so it still can't deal with any kinetic rounds and most HEAT-FS is still too fast unless it's being fired from longer ranges. Even modern systems like Trophy, and the American Quick Kill APS (which still isn't in service), lack the ability to stop kinetics, although they are at least able to stop all HEAT-FS and missiles. The only one I can think of that has that ability is Afghanit, the one on the T-14 Armata, and even that's listed as claimed rather than confirmed. AW probably should have some of its APS stop tank gun HEAT -- anything with Trophy definitely should be able to do that -- but on the whole, most of the hard-kill APS used up to this point can't stop most shells, if they can stop any at all.

@@PoorFoxface No you’re 100% correct. Armored Warfare focuses on modern armored vehicles, including vehicles yet to go into full production. So on stuff like the T14 Armata and BM Opolot where the APS has been shown in practice stop (or at a minimum degrade) APFSDS, it still functions like early Cold War hard-kill systems. This was likely done for balance since even today most armored vehicles aren’t slated to get APS and the ones that are, are only getting systems like Trophy which can only stop HEAT-FS at best.

I would love it if they added tank battles to the campaign missions or even single missions. They could also add realistic air and ground assault with better rewards. Or the biggest thing, rebalancing the maps.

I don’t think they are capable of making a creative, well thought out game mode.

A very valid point, I basically left World of tanks because I was tired of RNGesus determining my odds

@@samhansen9771 it's been called gayjin for years man, lmfao. You must not look in chat much

@@samhansen9771 Nothing unique, been used for years no need to be surprised

Depends , Drozd fired a 107mm HEFRAG infornt of the tank that was a wall schrapnell.

No, that's a fundamental misunderstanding of aps and guided munition. Early prototype and concept that does not have that much computational power do indeed mix tracking with prediction. But that's not the case even with the first fully operational irl implementation. They track the target from it's max range till it reach the "critical zone". Then it do it's shit. Missile is several dozen of kg of stuff. You can introduce some irregularity in it, but you cannot make them fly magically like in wt. Most of the ground based system can only perform 2 to 3 eradic movement. Air based system might be able to perform more turns since the time to impact is longer.

@@jintsuubest9331 not how its emplimented in game

Afghanit is effective on Kinetic rounds, but it isn't like it makes them useless. You can expect 20-60% penetration reduction depending on where the projectile is hit. It won't make APFSDS disapear, just like ERA it reduces how much it can penetrate.

And then there's Drozd, which shouldn't need any artificial nerfing at all. It carries eight 107mm HE-Frag rockets in four two-rocket launchers on the turret sides, which are fired one at a time. They have a fairly limited range of velocities they can work against (from 70-700 m/s) which generally means that only missiles and rockets will be slow enough, while contemporary HEAT-FS like those from the 105mm L7 and 120mm Rheinmetall L/44 (1173 m/s and 1140 m/s respectively) will get through. By the time the HE-Frag rocket launches to the minimum distance and explodes, something like a Leopard's HEAT-FS will already be impacting the tank, so we'd see an explosion behind the missile, and a bigger explosion when the hit tank brews up. Also, Drozd could only protect a 60-degree arc in the direction the turret is pointing, which means that each rocket pod covers a 15 degree sector -- after only 2 missiles, rockets, or older HEAT shells, an entire quarter of Drozd's protection will be gone. It's very effective against ATGMs, but soon runs out, and the limitation that you have to face your turret towards the incoming threat makes it a lot worse than even Arena, which still has the same velocity limits and still can't deal with 105mm HEAT, let alone anything more modern. Drozd's base tanks are not particularly dangerous either, being T-55AMs and T-62Ms -- the T-55AD and T-62D are basically the T-55AM-1 and T-62M-1 we have in game, but with the turret composite applique replaced by Drozd. After the historical rework of the BDD applique on those tanks in the new update, neither the T-55AM-1 or T-62M-1 have enough protection to stop something like a HOT missile anymore, which makes Drozd something of a sidegrade to the composite's current state. Drozd can stop a HOT missile just as easily as an older SS.11, but whereas the applique can still tank the Leopard 1's APDS and HEAT-FS, Drozd is worthless against conventional tank rounds. A T-55AD or T-62D would be very comparable to the AMX-30B2 BRENUS, being at a BR where its APS is able to the threat of missiles, but otherwise being very weak to conventional shells, and not necessarily the best tank on the battlefield. They even have similar limitations with the turret needing to be pointed at the missile. It's for this reason that I think Drozd is probably the ideal first hard-kill APS to have in the game. Being as basic and limited as it is, it would be a low-risk test case to get the mechanics of APS systems working right, which I think is what we need.

trophy is also somewhat effective against KE rounds like afghanit,it can reduce penetration,btw dont forget that trophy is battle tested and has gone through many trials while afghanit hasnt been in any combat in as far as we know is only a russian propaganda tool like many of the stuff they say.

@@shimonzozut7617 Isn't Trophy the same type of APS as Drozd? The only reason Afganit is effective against KE rounds is because it is supposed to use explosively shaped projectiles that can hit the shell/missile flying at it, regular HE-Frag APS don't really impact APFSDS because of how low the chance to hit it with fragments is

@@shepardpolska afghanit works like trophy not the other way around,the original version of trophy shots a charge that sends little pallets at the enemy projectile and detonate it,newer version of trophy incorporates iron fist features that basically mean that now trophy detects the threat,fires a charge at it and the charge explodes next to the projectile and in the case of chemicals it explodes it and in the case of KE rounds it veers it off course lowering its pen after all this it alerts the crew to where the threat came from and automatically faces that direction to eliminate it,trophy is better then afghanit for two reasons first it has 360 degrees cover while afghanit has less then 180 and second trophy has been battle tested while afghanit is nothing but russian talk and propaganda.

Supposedly the Russian systems (Arena and Afghanit) are designed to intercept APFSDS, and the Western systems are for CE munitions. As I understand it.

Well the Russians claim they can intercept darts with Afghanit. "Claim"

Well yes, but actually no. Using the example of the TOW missile, that system can be used by infantry but also be mounted onto vehicles, like the Bradley. What APS struggles/ can't intercept, based on national flavor, are long rod penetrators as the velocity on them can be much higher than a missile.

@@shirghazaycowboys When it comes to APFSDS Afghanit isn't making the penetrator magically disappear but throws it slightly of the trajectory, you'd only lose a certain percentage of pen.

I guarantee only a few nations will ever get Hardkill. The US, Germany, Russia, China, and Britain.

@@dragoneye0979 Japan suffers

@@dragoneye0979 I know all the MBTs who have Hard Kill and I dont think "A few" can be counted in by how many you can face in game when everyone owns one.

And the really modern German MUSS APS employed on the Puma even has MAWS and the jammer on its own little "turret"

@@user-nd9jp2lj2r Likely to see stuff like this be more common depending on circumstances (i.e whether it's cheaper or lighter than having multiple sensors / dischargers around the vehicle)

Yeah, the sensors are light and small, they are easy to put around the turret but those jammers still are pretty large devices, so even better if you can get away with one that still covers the whole 360°

@@user-nd9jp2lj2r Aye, but there is a drop off to response time (especially if the turret is not facing the direction it needs to already). A delay of milliseconds can be enough depending on circumstances and the weapon it's meant to intercept / jam. So all in all, it'll depend on what are the needs of the military, whether the risk is worth the price, etc.

Yes welcome to hardkill

They already have the Rooikat MTTD in game, they could just start there. Looking forward to future implementations!

If they add that I hope they make the Rooikat MTTD's functional.

I think you go one step further, most APS use radar to detect the incoming threat. If the player turns the APS, a marker gets placed on the mini map showing approximately where they were. That makes it a choice to have it active or not.

And Armored Warfare decided that ALL APS, both sofk kill and hard kill would work 360°, except for the CV Ghost because raisins.

@@GrenierWoR not saying its perfect or without flaw, but its a good start.

Nothing wrong with RNG especially realistic, as long as it's not guaranteed no matter what you do. If it's just one weapons system, then you can use your skill to not put yourself in a position where you need to rely on that weapon system working 100% for sure in the first place, then. No problemo. Either use the system but from careful positions of safety hard to retaliate against, or leave it for desperate straits and use a more reliable main weapon, etc. In the WWII analogy, short barreled howitzers having inaccurate cannons is both realistic and perfectly fine for gameplay, just don't try and snipe with them or you're doing it wrong (or at least shouldn't get too upset when the meme strat doesn't work). Use them for brawling instead, etc. The RNG quite reasonably stops you from leaning fully on sniping strats with those tanks, that's all.

What. It is not

Where are you getting that from lol it has ERA but that's it

@@jazzb97 yeah

@@stilpa1 ​ @jazzb97 it has ERA on the turret, it will stop shells, when you fire one at it the ERA block becomes red.

ERA is not the same as APS

In theory you could shot down AGM's like AS.20, AGM-12 & RB-05's with the 20 mm autocannon on the AMX-30B2 BERNUS but that's limited by elevation of the cannon although it can elevate to like 60° iirc.

@@lordwintertown8284 the elevation is 40 degrees : 2x20 (20 for the main gun + 20 from the auto canon)

Or maybe the Rooikat MTTD?