Christ's body died. "and He Himself bore our sins in His body..." (1Pe 2:24 NAS); "For just as the body without the spirit is dead..." (Jam 2:26 NAS); "He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit." (Joh 19:30 NAS); etc. It's not that difficult. Part of the problem is the idea commonly spread by some Calvinists that God poured out His wrath on the Son, as you mentioned. The Bible does not say that. The Scripture does say: " which He [God] purchased with His own blood." (Act 20:28 NAS) Since "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (2Co 5:19 NAS); one may carefully say God suffered on the cross. God was satisfying His own justice in Himself in Christ to make room for grace. The atonement necessitated the incarnation. The "person" of the Father was not crucified but yet He was in the Son.
God bless you Dr. Jordan! I really appreciated this video and I learned a lot from it. I agree that the atonement is a mystery, but that the scriptures use both legal (propitiation) and victorious language and that we shouldn't exclude either. But who am I to say. I am just an unworthy sinner like all of us who can only be saved by the tender mercy of the Lord. God bless you all!
Jordan, i appreciate your videos and your humility in presenting your theological views. However, it would benefit your audience if you actually provided the quotations from whatever view you're opposing. Too many times i heard you say, "I think he said this" or "I don't know the exact quote, but i think he said this." Why not take the time and get the exact quotation? You wouldn't write a paper like that, would you? No disrespect, but i would want someone to quote me in full if they're making a video about something i said. Wouldn't you?
He usually does in his scripted videos, but this was from a livestream. In a livestream, it would be impractical to stop and find exact citations for what someone said when you're just answering questions in the chat.
Drop the Fillioque Heretics 😆! Seriously though, I'd love a video on your thoughts on the Fillioque. Do you accept it because you actually believe it, or because it's in the Lutheran Confessions? Is it audiophora? (Or however you spell that word that means non- essential) or is it essential in Lutheranism?
In the anthology, "Luther's Two Catechisms Explained by Himself" Luther has an interesting take on the filioque. His whole concern is that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit for us. He totally ignores any question of the eternal procession as a separate topic from soteriology. That's a little frustrating from an ecumenical perspective. But it fits well with Luther's catechetical emphasis on the Creeds as pure Gospel.
Dear Dr. Cooper, which Lutheran scholastics made the point that the divine nature contributed infinity to the death the human nature provided? That was a mind-blowing thing for me, and I'd love to read those sources! Thank you so much for this video!
Short answer: NO Long answer: IMPOSSIBLE Jesus' answer: John 8:28-29 & 16:32-33 Jesus may have "felt" a sense of abandonment from the Father, given the crucifying circumstances. But feelings don't equal reality. You can feel sick, but that doesn't make you sick. The hope of the Father's permanent presence with us is rooted in His permanent presence with Christ. "What's true of Him is true of us."
bob polo So you’re saying what Jesus said was erroneous? If Jesus could be wrong, he couldn’t be fully God. Not saying either-or here. But your answer is a oversimplification that borders on nestorian heresy.
Jacob T. Murphy No. Jesus was not separated from the Father at any time. That would mean that there was a time when the Trinity was broken and that’s heresy.
@@jacobt.murphy2054 If you take Jesus' word literally, then you have to be consistent and take David's words literally because that's where Jesus got it, Psalm 22. Therefore, if the Father abandoned Jesus, then He also abandoned David. Also, did you read the Scriptures i cited from John's gospel?
@@bobpolo2964 I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion here. I'm disagreeing with your method of getting there. If Jesus merely "felt" abandoned and wasn't the 1. He had been deceived, and 2. He spoke in error. Both of these things would nullify His claim to be God, and render His death meaningless. That, or you somehow claim that his man-ness and his God-ness are at conflict (Which they aren't, this is why I said it bordered on Nestorian heresy.) So why did He quote David? That's the question we ought to be asking. Jesus, being fully God, must've had a reason to do so for our edification. This is a far better, more sound starting point than the one you previously put forward.
Penal substitution is replete throughout Luther's works, never downplay that. The spirit of our age is to downplay the seriousness of sin and the wrath of God. It is Jesu who saves us from the wrath of God because he suffered God's wrath on the cross. Penal substitution is the heart of the Gospel.
This so good on such a difficult subject. Excellent. This at bottom is even more mysterious. Again, we can start with the Hypostatic Union The teaching is that the Divine Second Person (who existed from all eternity and is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient) always had a Divine Nature (i.e. fully “sharing” in the Trinitarian Divine Nature). In “time”, He “assumed” a human nature. That is the Incarnation. It is a Mystery. Exactly how does it “work”? That is a Mystery that human language and thought is incapable of perfectly understanding and articulating. But the Fathers at the Council at Chalcedon set forth the further teaching as such: That upon the Divine Second person assuming a human nature, the human nature and the Divine Nature were mysteriously UNITED(without being “mixed or confused”) in the ONE Divine Person, (He is one Person from all eternity). The two natures are therefore also not “separated”. As you so rightly said, both the bible and the fathers affirm that therefore we must say the Divine Second Person died on the cross - not just his human nature. The Divine Second Person experienced the death of His human nature in a mysterious way through the Hypostatic Union. His Divine Nature did not die (or as you noted the Universe would have ceased to exist). And thus, as you said, the bible doesn't warrant saying the Father died or the Holy Spirit died or that they "suffered". And that was declared a heresy. In the Unity of the Divine Nature "shared" by all three Persons - how does that "work"? We don't know in a way that is clear. Again, we can only go so far. I liked your explanation of the Scholastic analysis. And yes Christ Victor is an important approach as well as Vicarious Atonement. On that front , would be interested in your thoughts on the book by Fleming Rutledge : "The Crucifixion." I found lots of great ideas and material in this book along with some questionable items I disagreed with. But overall I was positive on this book. I am a Catholic (former Lutheran who swam the Tiber).
This tells you PSA in a heresy and they have no answer. All this person did was string a bunch of words together which made no sense. According to RC Sproul as recorded (look it up): God the the Father, the first person of the eternal Trinity, poured out His wrath and punished and damned and cursed and cut off His son the second person of the Trinity. This splits the Trinity! But.... "No one speaking by the Spirit can say, Jesus is accursed!" 1 Corinthians 12:3; 15:17 Yet Sproul says this !? The 3 distinct persons always only love each other for all eternity and they are one essence which cannot be separated into tri theism which PSA does. Isaiah 44:6-8 So they believe in an obvious heresy because Calvin is their infallible teacher and tradition! If they say God pours out His wrath etc on the humanity of Jesus then they have to split Jesus into two persons which is the heresy of Nestorianism. Jesus is truly God and truly man without separation, division, mixture or change. The first person of the Trinity pours out wrath and curses the second person of the trinity separating their love and the essence they share. There is only one God. 1 John 4:8 And Jesus stops being begotten of the Father according to PSA contradicting Hebrews 13:8 These so called scholars have a false God meaning they have nothing. They also believe in the Filioque which adds words to what Jesus said and taught and so they again have the wrong Holy Spirit and wrong Trinity. John 15:26 Jesus said, "Eternal life is to believe in the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent!" John 17:3 Believe in penal substitution atonement and you do not have the true God or eternal life. Jesus who is God became a man so he could live a sinless life, fulfill the law, allow himself to die so he could enter Hades and free the captives and rise bodily from the dead to destroy death, sin, and the devil. Hebrews 2:14-15; 1 John 3:8 We are called to repent, that is, turn from sin and receive Jesus Christ. Acts 3:15-19; 26:20 Jesus freely forgives us and cleanses us from all sin making us righteous not just a legal fiction of imputed righteousness. See 1 John 1:7-9 "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself!" 2 Corinthians 5:19 This verse alone refutes PSA! PSA Is an ugly heresy! And Isaiah 53 does not teach PSA unless you are brainwashed before you read it.
Rat;her than restrict the Biblical motif of Christ's life and work is mainly Atonement and/or Christus Victor....why not add all NT motifs of Christ's historical work for consideration....motifs such as Justification by Faith, Reconciliation, Propitiation Sacrifice, Ransom, Redemption, Penal Substitution, Atonement, Examplar, Recapitulation , and Adoption. On the resurrection side of the equation we just one motif: Christus Victor. I am curious about the Adoption motif of Scripture. It seems that it doesn't fit with Christ's suffer nor with Christ's resurrection. Any help out there?
How can we be adopted if we're still children of satan? Jesus came to deliver us from our former parent and present us holy to our new parent, namely, His Father. Hebrews 2:14-15
_Acts ch 20 v 28_ Always keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of *God, which he purchased with his own blood.* _Revelation ch 2 v 8_ To the messenger of the church in Smyrna write: *The First and the Last, who was dead and came to life again,* says this:
God can't die. So however it is that Jesus dying works out within the trinity, you can't say that God died. God is by definition the only immortal being. "I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time-God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.' -1 Tim 6:14-16 With all do respect I didn't see any clear answer. Did the divine part of Jesus die? It seems like you said both yes and no.
Revelation says that "the first and the last" died, and that the lamb was slain "from the foundation of the world." Sounds very close to saying that God the Son died. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1%3A17-18%2C+2%3A8%2C+13%3A8&version=KJV
@@Mygoalwogel It could just be that Jesus is using the title "the first and the last" because he has been given this title/name. "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name" -Phil 2:9 "The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name." -Rev 3:12
