Many of villains were right pain was right about the cycle of hatred madrara was right about the shnobi system being hell zabuza was right about shnobi being used by thier village and people and neji was right about destiny naruto is the child of destiny they had a better understanding about life than naruto kishimoto himself said that naruto is too naive and idealistic he thinks that friendship can solve every problem
As much as I personally would love the infinite tsukuyomi. It has two flaws when applying it to the real world, firstly, you have to think about whether there's people who deserve an infinite tsukuyomi like criminals and other bad people. Secondly, we have to be aware of things outside of the genjutsu on Earth, like natural disasters, potential asteroids hitting earth, and whatnot as well as the reality that the universe is a finite existence it will come to an end. An infinite thing within a finite thing will ultimately come to an end when that finite thing ends as well. So to conclude: 1. Not everyone deserves it. 2. It's generally impractical. Edit: I also forgot to mention that it's unfair to deprive past and deny future generations of good people from experiencing the infinite Tsukuyomi. In regards to the inner peace paradox, I completely disagree since the infinite tsukuyomi is practically heaven true bliss also creates inner peace and your good experiences will infinitely be good it defeats any paradoxes.
Reminds me of the matrix' explanation that they stopped making the matrix a perfect world because it led to too mqny humans realizing that something was wrong. Perhaps one could argue the tiny bits of conflict we saw Tsunade and Hinata's world were a failsafe from that hell. In other words, you would get exactly as much conflict as you need to be kept happy. Either way, good idealist/constructivist manifesto. Hope you do more of that!
That's a good point. In a way conflict is good way to get us to appreciate what we have. Those "failsafe's" could be their way of making sure they appreciate what they've been given.
The infinit Tsukuyomi is a good and even one the best idea for the world peace and hapiness of every one : The Infinite Tsukuyomi was too good of a idea that even the author run from making the confrontation with Naruto ideology 1 Sasuke shielded team 7 against the infinite Tsukuyomi light this is one proof that the author didn't want Naruto to enter the dream world ( why didn't he make Naruto go inside and break through ? ) 2 Zetsu betraying Madara and confessing the "true purpose" of the infinite Tsukuyomi ( that was the escape the author gave to avoid that conflict) The question is why he did ? It simple because both Naruto and Madara visions are exelent Naruto want to live in the real world trying making it a better place day after day by resolving conflict and creating new connection between poeple but even the world will never be free from despair suffering... Madara offers a ideal world were you won't suffer and always be happy but it's a illusion The problem is , this philosophical conflict can't be solved both can be defended and both can be criticize But both work for the same purpose to creat a better world That is why he didn't choose one And I respect him for it he didn't want to make tipical end mangas with the heros affirming That they are right but rather letting the question be
Fantastic video, it's a topic I used to think about a lot during the manga's original run and the final arc. It really was disappointing when the Infinite Tsukuyomi was reduced to a method to acquire chakra and create a slave army. I like it when the villains' goal actually makes you pause and wonder "but wait what if they're right." Madara does make a pretty compelling case given his life experiences, knowledge and lets face it overwhelming charisma. A dream world full of only good things. But the problem is that without the bad things there's no contrast for the good things and so the good things lose any sort of meaning. Madara even sort of acknowledges that during his brief conversation with Tobirama that separating such basic causal nexuses would cause people to stop being human. The infinite tsukiyomi was more of a last resort/hope to remedy what Madara viewed as a reality incapable of change and dominated by the cycle of victors and losers. While his pessimism is both justified and very relatable at the end of the day there's an inherent cynicism at its core that makes it ring hollow at least to me. What meaning do dreams have if they're not actually achieved just handed to you through genjutsu? How can one claim to have brought peace when the entire solution is predicated on the idea that making peace an actual reality is impossible? How can Madara Uchiha, a man who laughs with joy at being able to experience real battle and conflict ever be satisfied with an illusion? Deep down I think both Madara and Obito knew they were lying to themselves but after losing so much and yearning for things they'd lost they confused escapism with altruism. The irony here is were I living in a world as hellish as the Narutoverse I probably would side with the plan because it's not like I don't get the extremely attractive appeal of what the IT promises but I think I'd be self aware enough to know I was doing it because I wanted it and not even bother with the 'it's for the greater good of everybody' spiel Obito and Madara use. Naruto would probably talk no jutsu my ass in record breaking time.
I think it’s just shows that if something is too good to be true it usually is. Madara wanted the world to take the easy way out and almost ended up enslaving the world. It’s like playing video games and eating hyper palatable foods to find happiness rather than chasing your dreams and goals while making friends. The first option is easier but The second is a far more fulfilling and long lasting happiness.
In Madara's perfect world that universal principle would just be different. So you wouldn't need to experience bad things to appreciate the good. You just inherently/naturally would.
I do think that the author himeself choose deliberately to change the fact about the Infinite Tsukuyomin and created the problem with the Zetsus and Otsutsuki to avoid giving a answer to the ideological confrontation between what Naruto and Madara views of the best world Maybe he didn't want to give a answer or he didn't find it But I do think the bad ending of Naruto manga is because of that reason Naruto and Madara visions are both good both can be defended or criticize but we can't say one of them is better And I do respect Kishimoto Sama to not just side with the main character ( by making Naruto beat Madara ) at the same time he can't make Madara win and side with him ( so he decided to avoid the confrontation completely )
Thanks for outlining these paradoxes. I would like to add practical flaws from the infinite Tsukuyomi : - As you said it basically create too infinite isolation. We are no longer connected to each other but to makeshift portraits of people. - For instance, what if you start to realize you're very close relatives or friends don't act in their natural way, just to fulfill your needs? Doesn't this break some kind of suspension of disbelief for the dreamer? Like a Truman show situation. - Some petty example would be Karin. She would be in a relationship with a duplicate of Sasuke. She might even self-consciously realize this situation is not believable, since it never happened in reality, he even tried to kill her actually. That might trigger for her to mistrust the infinite Tsukuyomi. But she would be trapped there regardless. There is no turning back from the infinite dream. - which leads to a major point. You don't have the choice to come back from your initial choice. The infinite dream is a one way ticket. Even against your free will. Another huge problem in this world : what happen to fundamental values? - The people in this world, more or less don't really have a free will. From a dreamer perspective, it's a factice world that evolves purely around the needs of one being. If you seek blindly with obstination for something you shouldn't achieve, then this world might fill that need for you, regardless of whether or not it should happen, or it respects or not fundamental concepts like justice, merit etc etc What if you dream about ruling over the world and have people be servants to you? Then you just turn into a worse version of yourself. - If you hurt somebody in that dream would you be punished for it? If yes, which extent? Can people disagree with your choices if they are repulsed by what you choose. Or do their will to enter in conflict with you, is always subdued to the need of your absolute protection? What if you cross a red line? Is there a sentence of prison for the dreamer, or is he completely untoucheable and stop the notion of justice around him. Or probably your actions are restricted to the extend that prevents the creation of conflicts with others. Either the justice bend to some extent to your needs, or the world prevent your acts to violate the need to avoid conflicts.
All of those flaws are acknowledged by Madara to some capacity, hence why he made it so suitable conflict exists in the Tsukyomi. You don’t notice a lack of conflict if that conflict is present.
@@trutyatces8699 It's not because we don't see the system collapsing in a subset of episodes that there are not flaws in the system. An analogy would be, people just assume that Madara can handle a complex software that can manage their happinesses without having any type of bug for all eternity. And then we observed in a short period of time the lack of bug conclusion bugs will never occur? Sounds fishy.
All you kids trying to be edgy and shit how would you like it if the entire universe died except you, stuck in place, still conscious forever but you can’t do shit except want to die? That’s what Infinite Tsukuyomi would be like. Nothing ever changes you’d be lonely forever and never feel excitement again. Learn from Saitama bro
@@clarkdark2906 have you ever visited R/peoplef#ckingdying? That is what you sound like unironically. You don’t even seem to understand what the Tsukuyomi even is either.
@@clarkdark2906 it’s nothing like that your living but just not in reality. Some say that’s we are right now. What u said was more like the guy who got put In stone to float around space forever in jojo
Enjoyed listening to the longer ramble and breakdown of characters mindsets and philosophy. Personally I’ll always side towards the Infinite Tsukuyomi being a sham. Living in your own dream world can’t be true peace, it takes away the human factor that forms bonds between other people being different from yourself. Finding common ground and companionship with those around you no matter the individual differences is one of the key themes to Naruto and I think that perfectly reflects the opposition to the Infinite Tsukuyomi.
I wish someone had challenged Madara on this like Nagato was challenged by Naruto. Not a talk no jutsu, but just someone telling Madara something more than just "it is fake". Itachi talking to Madara about it would be entertaining.
@@New_Horizons it’s kinda funny but someone did challenge Obito about this. Which was the Mizukage. The Mizukage said “That’s not a paradise, that’s just an escape” or something similar to that. But it was never focused on
Personally, I disagree with the notion that says “you can’t appreciate good things unless you’ve experienced bad things”. This is the equivalent of a rich guy giving away all his inheritance and wealth just to appreciate simple things like food and clean water. Realistically, No one looks at a beggar and envies his life because the beggar would have a greater appreciation of the good things. I’ve had friends who were more fortunate and less fortunate than I was, and not ONCE have I envied the life of the less fortunate. As someone who grew up in a third world country, BELIEVE ME when I say “there’s NOTHING to be desired in suffering”. Anyone who is telling you to appreciate your suffering is lying to you, there are simple words made to help you cope with your struggles.
I think you misunderstood statement, not appreciating good thing without experience of bad thing does not equal of going from good thing to bad thing to appreciate thing you already have/can easily get. If you get good thing by default, ex. being born into wealth without experiencing life as "lower class", you can't appreciate it because you do not have experience of the thing that is worse.
THIS CHANNEL IS SOOOOO UNDERRATED!! I’m glad I can enjoy the ride from the beginning. I hope you can make it big and live your dreams in reality/while still awake. 🙂
This is under the presumption that the Infinite Tsukuyomi doesn't supply its captors with adequate negative stimuli to offset their positive experiences. We saw as you said some minor negative experiences occur within the brief glimpses we get in the manga. And in the anime, we see that Yamato's dream actually has Kabuto show up as an antagonist for him to overcome. It could very well be that the "perfect" dream world was actually created so that it was perfect in the way that you'd imagine it should be, and not infinitely indulgent. If this was the case, what argument would you make against it?
That and this is also to assume that the variables of the universe do not change. In the infinite tsukoyomi, you just wouldn't need negativity to fully understand and appreciate the positive stuff. It just wouldn't be a factor because the rules of the universe are inherently altered.
His idea was valid, the 2 issues people have is that it isn't real (as if that means anything) and that Madara didn't ask nicely. If some savior type character showed up in the real world and said "I will save the world from all hatred and pain and put everyone into their ideal dream" I have no doubt the majority would say okay and if they didn't, they're hypocritical. People constantly find joy in things that aren't real by playing games, watching shows or movies, rejecting reality at every angle if it doesn't satisfy us or make us happy, we serve our emotions, not logic or what reality ought to be. Itachi even says reality is equivocal. So yeah, Madara is totally right and the Shinobi world is just unreasonably stubborn. However, if the Infinite Tsukuyomi itself is imperfect and cannot provide what it is supposed to based off of how the human psyche is, then the whole thing would fail anyway. But if you get annoyed in the infinite Tsukuyomi, like if you have no challenges, wouldn't it create challenges? Ultimately if suffering or struggles make you happy, wouldn't the Infinite Tsukuyomi create those things?
it depends on how the infinite tsukuyomi was programmed. Would a character really desire something adverse to happen, like a death? I doubt it. And Madara wanted to create a world with no suffering at all. So I don't think he would allow the dreams to have suffering.
@@New_Horizons isn’t it programmed in the way that people would have the most positive experience? Did Tsunade desire Jiraiya giving her brother his books? Great vid still
A critic to your point: We're driven by emotion, yes, and we enjoy fiction But at the end of the day we still want a reality to fall back on Likewise while we develope things like VR, which might as well be the real life Infinite Tsukuyomi, we still want to be able to take a time off(not be 24/7 inside a game) and have real relationships I dont think humanity needs suffering either, just contrast You dont need to be in pain to feel pleasure or happiness, but you do need a contrast between those things and your "default" state(and perhaps your state of pain) in order to know they exist and are valuable Struggles and challenges likewise are a matter of contrast, you dont need to face the horrors of a real war to be entertained, a game of Call of Duty might just be enough to give you that without the cons - but you still need contrast The issue with Madara's plan is that He would force everyone into a dream reality that likely lacks contrasts without any exits and where all relationships are a forgery while he enslave them all irl A correction to this would be have the Infinite Tsuyomi have contrasts and artificial challenges like a videogame without the need of pain or suffering, while also letting people leave it at any time they want to have real relationships in the real world Madara still would be the ruler of the world since he controls the dream everyone wants to be in during their leisure time and could end & prevent any conflict in the real world from escalating into a violent-destructible one by throwing the offenders back into the dream That way Madara wouldnt be enslaving humanity and forcing everyone to live inside his ideal reality, but rather the benevolent despot(and perhaps indeed the saviour of the world) that offers everyone free access to a Virtual Reality Sandbox(during the *feudal era* mind you) with everything they need to keep themselves happy & entertained during the day before "going home" at night and the only price for it being that those who start trouble in the real world are "punished" by simply being involuntarily thrown into the VR for some time as a way to ground them, *far* from a tyranny Madara's goals and plans werent wrong, he just was not being very practical or empathetic about it, which is understandable for someone who lived his entire life as a child soldiers during a warlord period However without these corrections I mentioned his plans would actually create suffering in the form of distress for those forced to live inside his dream while their real selves work 24/7 like plantation slaves for their Uchiha overlord, *far* from ideal The world Naruto created after the war, while not ideal either, is far better than that It's a world where he single handely ended the feudal era by *starting a industrial revolution on his own* and turning the villages into real nation-states instead mercenary armies for daimyos Not only that but democratic nations with real elections for the head of states(even if still militarily-driven) and through his overwhelming strenght he made all these nations cooperate and use diplomacy rather than war to solve their issues, forming a UN-equivalent right at the start of the shinobi industrial era In the real world that would be like if someone pulled a Napoleon *in the Medieval Europe* conquering the whole thing and reordering the countries into modern nation-states, then pulled a Bismarck on top of that consolidating & industrializating the whole continent and afterwards estabilished the League of Nations to peacefully deal with any disputes instead dictating everything from a position of authority Or if we were to use Japan as an example since it inspired the series If Oda Nobunaga lived finishing his unification of Japan, pulled a Meiji and created the Modern Japan we know today in the 1500s without commiting any war crimes along the way This just shows how Naruto is a beast and a incredible leader (Also a fictional character, I know) Will his peace era last forever? Probably not, but his legacy and "Will of Fire" ideology most certainly will And while Madara's plan *with the corrections* maaaaaybe could have been better(and doesnt necessarily contradicts Naruto's ideals, if anything it could complement them by giving his already better-off world a source of unlimited entertainment and a countermeasure to any future conflicts), Naruto's achievements far surpass Madara's and the plans of any antagonist or political leader shown in the series, he's just that great
I honestly think that it would. I agree that without struggle, life becomes significantly less meaningful, but wouldn't the Infinite Tsukuyomi just make your life have just enough suffering to be enjoyable? It seems to just go along with what ever you want, so wouldn't it give you struggle if you wanted it, even if it was just subconsciously? Madara may not want suffering, but he doesn't seem to control everything in the genjutsu, and if he saw that you wanted to suffer a little, he might just let you be, because your dream would have no effect on anyone elses. But that's just my opinion.
And what if you want something you shouldn't have? Is the dreamer gonna be punished for it? Like, in Orochimaru dream world, does he have an unlimited amount of human subjects of experimentation? Otherwise, are the dreamer's needs just fulfill with what Madara thinks he should have? Does a dream world allows kidnapping?
@@fellowkrieger457 No punishment. The Infinite Tsukuyomi's dream worlds are not connected. So, no matter what you want, it would affect no one else. The Infinite Tsukuyomi is based on the mind of the victim, not Madara. He could control them, but I doubt he would. Everyone would have everything that THEY want, so I don't really think he would care. His entire goal was to sever the fate of the word, to be rid of the consequences of one's actions on another. So as long as you affect no one else, he would most likely leave you alone. The dream world allows whatever you want, even if you don't know that you want it. At least, that's how I interpret it.
I genuinely believe this because we saw Lee fighting Naruto and Neji but was dirty afterwards which means he struggled to defeat them. I believe if a character desires conflict, he would get conflict in his world.
As much as I personally would love the infinite tsukuyomi. It has two flaws when applying it to the real world, firstly, you have to think about whether there's people who deserve an infinite tsukuyomi like criminals and other bad people. Secondly, we have to be aware of things outside of the genjutsu on Earth, like natural disasters, potential asteroids hitting earth, and whatnot as well as the reality that the universe is a finite existence it will come to an end. An infinite thing within a finite thing will ultimately come to an end when that finite thing ends as well. So to conclude: 1. Not everyone deserves it. 2. It's generally impractical. Edit: I also forgot to mention that it's unfair to deprive past and deny future generations of good people from experiencing the infinite Tsukuyomi. In regards to the inner peace paradox, I completely disagree since the infinite tsukuyomi is practically heaven true bliss also creates inner peace and your good experiences will infinitely be good it defeats any paradoxes.
The biggest issue with Infinite Tsukuyomi is that it offers a dream of perfection. But true perfection (has you pointed out in your water and thirst example) is a paradox. Being perfect and remaining perfect deprives you of the pleasure of being perfect. That is to say, if there are no obstacles in your way, you will not appreciate what you have. Life is meaningless. The irony of Infinite Tsukuyomi is that although it is ideal in offering "true peace," it's more than likely to end in suffering regardless because of its perfection. Taking away the concept of everyone turning into White Zetsu, I think these dreams will eventually turn into nightmares where people trapped will start to seek substance. Like a gamer too good at his hobby seeking a challenge. He's been through it all and wants something new when it comes to gaming. Originally, he could have hated the idea of going outside and exercising, preferring the safety of his home. But when suffering enough from being deprived of the human experience, he might just give it a try and even enjoy the challenges exercise could give him. Just as an example.
Wouldn’t there be conflict in the Tsukuyomi though, like there is in the anime filler? It also doesn’t appear to work like going “I want a cup of water” and it instantly appearing, it seems to be a balance between peace and conflict
Well if the Infinite Tsukuyomi is really a perfect world, wouldn’t you have those challenges when you need it? Conflict will come if you need it? And happiness and joy ofc will come if you need it. Ngl if it weren’t for the whole Kaguya thing (which tbh kinda ruined it) I would be on Madara’s side
@@Varun37251 the worst part of Kaguya is that makes sense, she’s a direct response to Madara, being that he was consumed by the hypocrisy he fought so hard to end, ultimately losing any sight of himself. The issue is that she doesn’t have a personality if her own and her only actual bit of lore is that she misses her children or something lmao. Madara would have been perfect, Kaguya makes sense, Kishi just fucked her up
The Infinite Tsukuyomi gives you exactly what you want. If you want a boring vanilla world you'll get that, if your bored of that it will give you a conflict to overcome. It's tailor made for you.
I found this to be an enjoyable video. I've talked about the subjectivity of reality before and explored it years ago, so to see you on a video talk about it felt refreshing. It really is a thought-provoking subject. You're right about how the dreams the characters have don't remove conflict, but the dreams are their perfect world. It makes me think about Madara telling Tobirama to desire peace without conflict would make people stop being people. Conflict isn't necessarily something that people hate. It just depends on the conflict. I think the real consequences of the world we live in vs a dream world is how the dream world is abstract while the real world is concrete. One's dream is another's nightmare in the world that we perceive as real, but in the dream itself it's your life and only yours.
The dream world would more than likely allow you to experience "thrist so you can enjoy it being queunced " and etc A perfect world would account for this And if it doesn't its a genjutu that madara can control to do just that, just felt like a cop-out to say no because my headcanon believe this is how it works So i ask if doesn't create this hypothetical paradox would it be a solution?
Exactly. Madara's infinite tsukoyomi isn't just "reality, but peaceful" but rather it is the objectively absolute version of our objectively flawed reality. So there literally can't be any downsides. There are no paradoxes. New Horizons is just wrong :P
I mean the Ninja World was still somewhat fucked up after the 4th Great Ninja War so yes the Infinite Tsukyomi makes sense, especially if you got Otsutski level threats running around
It was only temporarily as even if it succeeded. Momoshiki and Kinshiki would have come for Madara eventually and likely destroyed him and so on. There's also if Jigen was proven to be around in the background or Isshiki. So honestly Madara wasn't going to be able to hold the genjutsu together forever.
I think In real life I think access to an infinite tsukuyomi would be a good way to temporarily allow people to live out their dreams and then bring them into reality or show people selfish desires so they can move past them, it could even show people how progress can only come from actual conflict (not nessisrarily violent conflict though) bit different ideas coming into the world, you can't come up with anything new if you don't have access to other peoples idea's
A very well structured and interesting video. Just some thoughts from my end: I wouldn't necessarily argue that the people inside the Infinite Tsukuyomi dying is bad. I guess it depends on the circumstances of each death. If you peacefully fall asleep in the Infinite Tsukuyomi (of course before it getting stale like New Horizons described), then this might be better than growing up and dying as a tortured civillian in a warzone. Even if Madara is right and people cannot immediately understand each other, I think that this i exactly why communication is so important to (at least beginning to) understand each other! (I have to think about the procedure/importance of debates in demcracies, and the concept of "agree to disagree", versus dictatorships where the dictator's will is imposed on others.) This video got me thinking about Buddhist Philosophy. While I think that it definitively has a huge point in desires causing suffering (not necessarily the bad situations themselves), I personally still disagree that after letting go of desires, there will be no suffering. Feeling pain and arguably a fear of death Ithink are strong counterexamples to this. I think there are just some things that are (somewhat) objectively worse than others, so the desire to end these things is objectively more sound than for other things. An example would be the desire to escape a miserable life of poverty, abuse and mistreatement versus the desire to regain a lost arm or a dead relative. The second set of situations can be overcome (and many people do so), but I'm not so sure about the first one. If we could make every situation acceptable by letting go of desires, does this also include hell (defined as a place of constant torture)?
If the Infinite Tsukuyomi was real I'd be down for it. Infinite power, money, sex, the finer things in life. What's not to like about it? I saw Naruto as the villain in disguise once the plan was revealed. He was constantly getting in everyone's way to happiness. At least until it was shown to be bullshit. But if it was real, Naruto would still be the villain to me.
@@ugurguneri6469 Why wouldn't you have free will in the IT? From the glimpses we've seen of everyone's fantasies, can you honestly tell me the real world would be better than that? Were they all not happy? It doesn't matter whether it's real if they can't tell the difference. It's the same as not being able to wake up from a dream, in which case that dream becomes your reality. Naruto is my enemy because he fought against that. I'm glad he did because it was all bullshit. But if it had been real, now you know why I see him that way.
@@SasukeUchiha-pr5zs it's not in it. it's the way madara forces everyone to live their "perfect" dreams. Even if the outcome wasnt slavery and death it's still wrong
@@ugurguneri6469 Yeah, I'm not with that high moral ground shit. Everyone living their perfect dream is an ideal world to me. A reality only possible in the IT.
The 4 Greatest And Real World Applied Speech In The Narutoverse. 1. Itachi Speech To Sasuke On Reality And Illusion. 2. Pain Speech To Naruto On Justice. 3. Madara Speech To Obito On Wake Up To Reality. 4. Tobirama Speech To Sasuke On Uchiha Greater Love Can Evolve Into Greater Hate Which Can Be Applied To Real World As Well. *Notice How All These Guys Are Practically A Villain Of Some Kind. However, The Only Thing That Makes These Guys A Villain Is The Amount Of People They Killed Not The End Goal They Wanted To Achieved. It Just Shows You That Humans In General Are Stubborn And Even If Your End Goal Is The Most Logical And Best Approach Their Will Always Be Some People Who Disagree Which Forces You To Either Cut Them Down Or Be Cut Down By Them* It All Comes Down To Faith. Have Faith In A Next Man's Dreams Can Sometimes Be The Key To Success.
As much as I personally would love the infinite tsukuyomi. It has two flaws when applying it to the real world, firstly, you have to think about whether there's people who deserve an infinite tsukuyomi like criminals and other bad people. Secondly, we have to be aware of things outside of the genjutsu on Earth, like natural disasters, potential asteroids hitting earth, and whatnot as well as the reality that the universe is a finite existence it will come to an end. An infinite thing within a finite thing will ultimately come to an end when that finite thing ends as well. So to conclude: 1. Not everyone deserves it. 2. It's generally impractical. Edit: I also forgot to mention that it's unfair to deprive past and deny future generations of good people from experiencing the infinite Tsukuyomi. In regards to the inner peace paradox, I completely disagree since the infinite tsukuyomi is practically heaven true bliss also creates inner peace and your good experiences will infinitely be good it defeats any paradoxes.
Itachi’s Tsukoyomi could manipulate time and space, in the books he made his girl friend live out her entire life in a fraction of a second and ended her life, how long were the shinobi forces in the Infinite Tsukoyomi, it must’ve felt like an eternity to them. Why weren’t any of them mentally broken, being woken up from peace only to be on the battlefield again, surrounded by their dead Allie’s.
Kishimoto avoided every dark aspect of Naruto, you want to tell me out of all those people, no one cursed Naruto and Sasuke for waking them up from their ideal dream? This is why I believed he added the Zetsu thing so that people would have a reason to hate the infinite Tsukuyomi. Kishimoto couldn’t prove why Madara was wrong.
They were. Read the Sakura, Kakashi Hiden and Kakashi Retsuden novels, lol. Sakura had to set up mental health clinics around the world for these people to have years of rehab from their PTSD. Also, many abandoned their villages and went to the land of silence to form their own organization that followed Madara's ideology because they realized after the fact that they actually wanted to be a part of the infinite tsukoyomi and that they were wrong and Madara was right lol. There were multiple of these organizations because there were thousands of shinobi who agreed. One of these organizations were referred to as ‘The Sons of Madara’ and one of the members, Garyo, openly confronts Naruto on this - to which Naruto STILL does not have a counter answer to Madara's solution. In fact, Garyo extensively explains his ideals, “To rid the world of war and realize ultimate justice, there is only the Infinite Tsukuyomi. It is true that Madara is dead. And the Infinite Tsukiyomi was also consigned to eternal oblivion... However... his ideal must not die. We may be forced to use other methods, but we will approach Madara’s ideal step by step” (Garyo). Also, “What is ultimate justice? It is the equality of all people. All unhappiness in this world arises from inequality. So then what should we do to realize this equality? We must control the freedom of the individual. The freedom to earn money, the freedom to possess more than others, the freedom to have it easier than others-I fight to control freedoms like these. And if our experiments go well, other lands will endorse us and our ideals. All freedoms in this world will be controlled. This is the true meaning of Madara’s ideal, a new world order” (Garyo). Naruto's response is naiive and literally just not true, lol “There are no hidden villages in this land, you know. Killing people who don’t know the first thing about fighting… You’re the ones who brought hatred and sadness into this country. It used to be a peaceful place” (Naruto).
Ever since I 'discovered' Naruto in my early 20s, I've been on a sliding scale. At the beginning, I would have said 'hell no'. However, at this point in my life, I'm at a solid 'maybe'. Give me a few more years and I might be first in line for the one way trip to dreamland, even if it ends in Zetsuhood!
Itachi is explaining that genjutsu works when someone is able to make their fantasy your reality. It's fitting seeing how he is one of the best genjutsu users in the series.
what happens if what it means by everyone's ideal world as in there is still suffering but a greater reward from that suffering, for example when [Spoiler warning for boruto] Kurama died so that isshiki could be defeated and so the will of fire can be continued. So what if Boruto is actually Naruto's dream world, well that's what I think the infinite Tsukuyomi is
Everything is better if Kaguya didn't exist! And Kishimoto was forced to write more so he introduced Kaguya so instead I like thinking Kaguya as the final complete villain completely written off and the whole Otsusuki rebirth things didn't happen. It makes everything better.
A false reality is not the solution. You need the low to appreciate the highs. No one lives a life without setback but because of those setback they push us forward for a better tomorrow.
That is the dumbest thing I've ever read. Basically you want to people to enjoy suffering so they can appreciate peace somehow. What are you a Buddhist? Why do so many people believe suffering is a good thing? Newsflash, it's not!!
@@giornogiovannatheultimateb8553 Some things yes but it's never alluded that they want to glorify suffering as good hence why most of the villains like Obito, Pain, and Madara have tragic stories.
I may be the only one who thinks this. But I think subconsciously Madara couldn't care less about the Infinite Tsuknomi. I believe he simply needed justification for his losses in life and a reason to quite literally keep on living. Think about it, the man actively uses some of the widest scale attacks with no regard for the number of casualties. The best example is when he and Obito took control of the 10 tails and Obito just wanted to transform, but instead Madara just wanted to see how much damage the Jubi could do. Also if he truly wanted peace, why would he constantly want to take the 10 tails away from Obito, unless for selfish pride. And finally Madara does not active the Infinite Tsuknomi until Naruto and Sasuke have him on the back foot and is 100% going to lose.
You’re wrong on so many levels….. First of all, Madara came up with the idea of infinite Tsukuyomi, Zetsu didn’t put “infinite Tsukuyomi” on the tablet so the idea was entirely Madara’s which makes the plot twist stupid. So saying Madara doesn’t care about infinite Tsukuyomi is just wrong. You’re implying Madara didn’t care about true peace but that’s also wrong. Madara is one of the few people who would want true peace in Naruto, right from a young age, he had lost three of his brothers to war, his last brother died, his entire family died, his clan rejected him despite having their best in his mind, the village had rejected him in a way, even his best friend had rejected him. Madara had no personal connection left, he wasn’t doing it to be with a loved one, or to reclaim what he had lost but he was doing it for the world. This is where he and Obito are different, Obito’s primary concern was himself, Madara wanted to save the world. When he got revived in the war, Madara didn’t attack first, the alliance did. Madara was told the alliance refused to give up the beasts so he attacked back. And Madara wanted to put Obito in his dream world to make up for what he had to do to Obito in the past.
havnt watched the video yet but based off the title no lmao it kills you, being in the infinite tsukuyomi is just the divine tree sapping your chakra madara and obito had no idea about that
Amazing video ...i just realized sasuke and madara are kinda flipped.. As u said madara needed to break the cycle and accept the negativity and not be bitter like Sasuke did....and Sasuke wanted to be the main villain everyone joins together and creates unity to defeat like madara was ...wow i never realized that thanks
1. But if good can't exist without bad, then the reverse would also have to be true. And I think there are enough tragic characters in fiction, to make it unnecessary to give examples that you can have life composed of exclusively suffering and yet it's all still bad, despite no good there being to contrast it. Therefore it seems baseless to assume that world of only good is exposed to this haunting "diminishing return' effect that would make us so habituated to only good and make it ultimately not be good at all. Yeah, it'd certainly be not AS good but to say it'd transform into hell is something you'd still have to prove. And if you want to say that we'd still suffer a great loss of all those happiness factor - to worry about that is the privilege of only those who managed to make something out of their live in their world. Something not attainable to all the countless people who had circumstances akin to those of Haku or Yahiko for example but being completely ordinary. Sequels to the series such as Kakashi Hiden or Sakura Hiden recognize and explore those issues, as quite the portion of society regrets or even despises Naruto for stopping Infinite Tsukuyomi. 2. There isn't really any proof in the series that Infinite Tsukuyomi creates simulation with exactly 0 conflict. I think your interpretation of subconsciously desired negatives that Ino or Tsunade disapprove of outwardly is valid, however it still doesn't really tell us that manga takes a stance of whether IF removes or keeps any forms of conflict. Anime definitely thinks it keeps them, since even Karin's dreamlife is pretty miserable (even if we take only present into account). My interpretation would be - if Infinite Tsukuyomi is intelligent enough that it can read our whole past, traumas, beliefs, thought processes, subconscious and unconscious to create the perfect life, then why wouldn't be intelligent enough to know that humans at their core need some extent of struggle and keeps only tragic catastrophes out of their lives? 3. It's not about Hagoromo being detached of desires or emotions, it's about Hagoromo actually questioning whether or not his ninshu way is just naive and maybe it's Madara, Indra and Kaguya who were in the right. He verbatim considers such possibility. I don't think even Kishimoto has a definitive stance on the matter, since Kakashi and Hashirama both admitted to Obito and Madara after their respective defeats, that they are uncertain of whether their path was right or wrong. Nevertheless, this is still by far the best shot at tackling this topic I've seen on youtube.
Without the whole white zetas shit, I have no doubt that it is one solution to our problems. Me personal would like to escape this reality to see how far my imagination takes me. Depends on who you ask as well because if you are proud of your life then you wouldn’t want it to erase as well.
@@selfimprovement5873at the cost of everything you've achieved in the real world. Dream are only temporary and forgotten, what we do in real world will have longer impact even after our death.
If there's no peace ✌️ without bad. Who has the role of being bad in order to make others enjoy peace? And are they going to be happy that they badness is always being stopped by the good guys? If not true peace is death
your video was so amazing I love to philosophical and psychological analysis on the infinite sukiyomi and I agree 100%, too much of any good things bad for all those people would like sweets yeah I know you can't eat that much sweets😹great vid keep up the good work Horizon.
I'd like correct you when you say that eventually become boring because you'd be getting everything you want. even if you don't want to get everything you want. The infinite tsukunomi will solve the problem and always give you your desire. For example look at how itachi killed his girlfriend at the uchiha masicar even when she was out of tsukunomi before she died she thanked itachi for giving her joy even if it wasn't real
RARE AND ODD MOMENT??? NONI?! All existences in their own Reality... Words being words... Sounds... All meanings... Color... I see... Interesting video...
There’s an after life in Naruto, we’ve confirmed that with kakashi talking to his dad and the 6th paths ghost, so after dying imagine the daughter/son life we created was all fake, the wife/husband doesn’t love you back, you never had anything between you guys, it was all in your head that would be a horrible life in the after life. you’re practically alone after cause all the things that happened were fake especially if the people were young and they never got a chance to meet more and make friends so these people would be all strangers to each other or know a different person from the actual person
I disagree, when I have long periods of my time when I have nearly all the things I want, I feel great! The plan does eliminate material suffering and spiritual. You have bonds of love and community and friendships and you get all the alcohol and drugs and gambling and money you want. It’s the best of both worlds.
And what stops the suffering exactly? The conflict and pain still go one way and there are still minor conflicts, as many would not get involved in that one. Sasuke isn't trying to stop the conflict, he is redirecting it. The people would still suffer and hate, die and war, otherwise his image of villain would disapeer.
