We Need To Talk About CHEESE 

Totally agree, I'm a 65 year old total amateur who got to grade 3 piano when I was 10. I dug out my 25 year old yamaha keyboard during lock down and enjoyed playing it so much I bought the psr sx 900 in 2020. Played pretty much every day since then just in my own home, self taught but best move I've made. Great videos Woody.

In 50 years all the arranger styles will be Gangster Hip Hop, Rotterdam Techno, Death Metal, K-Pop, Harry Styles, Cardi B, Reggaeton Styles ect when todays teenagers perform in their Senior😅 homes... 😅

What _is_ the tune at 5:39?

My cheese factor is actually a bit different than the points you mentioned. For me it's in the styles themselves. They trigger an uncanny valley effect in me as they almost sound like the original but not 100%. But the worst thing in my opinion is the that the styles sound like perfectly produced studio versions of the songs and not like an emotional live performance. When I go to a concert then I want the latter,

I always keep one arranger keyboard. Yes, most of the styles sound cheesy, but if you silence the excessive arrangements in those styles and keep the bass and drums, then an arranger becomes useful. Our brains hate monotonous music … reduce it. I also added bass pedals … so I could play with my foot more complex and less automatic bass parts. The arranger is good for layering sounds on the left or right side … with minimal auto arranged parts played

I've been using arrangers for 25 years...I always pair one with a workstation, digital piano or synthesizer...the sound and perception really changes with those instruments when used together.. arrangers are fun and quick to work up a new tune...also, you can easily remove parts of the styles to not sound so repetitive...always enjoy your videos...kudos.

Of course, they are cheesy. There is no doubt about it. But they are so much fun to play. Not necessarily fun to listen to, but who cares about the neighbors when you have a headphone out :) And the best is - you have a wide variety of cheese to choose from! 40 years of cheesiness at your service to be found at ad and auction sites for almost nothing. I settled with a Roland RA50. It is out of this world and beyond sanity :)

A lot of musicians look down on arrangers for no other reason than it’s ‘cool’ to do it. For me you don’t have to use every aspect of an arranger. Some of the patches are really good even on my old Yamaha model. They should pull their head out of their arse and quit being music snobs.

Oh dear, hahaha. Stay you Woody. Been loving your videos for years.

In the 80's I grew up in music retail (keyboards, guitars, organs etc.) and right now I've been working for over a decade in similar music retail, just an order of magnitudes larger (175M/y). So, I grew up with models like the Roland E-series (E20, E70, E86, Pro-E etc.), the large organs from Technics, Eminent, Yamaha, General Music and many others. So I've been there since the beginning of auto-accompaniment. Being a writer for retail nowadays, I occasionally add/describe modern keyboards/arrangers to our webshop. Including this Genos, but also the Korg PA-series, the recent Ketron-models, and similar. It shocked me how little has changed between now and then (80's, 90's). Keep in mind that back then the ROM-sizes for samples were probably around 4 MB. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more, but in those orders of magnitudes. Nowadays? Usually close to a gigabyte or more. Everyone who endured the Akai CD days knows that given a certain size, things should sound decently. I mean, a full strings patch could cost 64 MB, but then it should sound decent. Yet, when I listen to all these modern keyboards, the cheese-factor is the same as in all those old vintage keyboards and organs. So, it can't be the sound. It's several other things. First: the word "style". As soon you want to present people with a list of styles, manufacturers tend to stick to old cliches. How many 'styles' are there in normal pop songs? Probably none, other than 4/4 bars. I mean, take Careless Whisper from G.M., it sounds nothing like an '8 Beat' in any keyboard. Take Dancing Queen from ABBA, it sounds nothing like a 'disco' from any keyboard. It's because these were just made as the producer saw fit. The producer didn't really bother himself about which style it is. So, as soon as you want to summarize the broad landscape of music with the word 'style', you're in deep sh*t already. Secondly: the way chords are played. In the diatonic system there are three majors and three minors, but the triads remain identical. So the system wouldn't know whether you want a dorian minor or a normal minor, or a lydian major or a mixolydian major. It can't know based on simple chord play. That's when things get cheesy as well, the ideas one has just can't be fleshed out well. It's for this reason that intros, fills and endings are usually more interesting than the simple chords. Yes, that's because in those intros and endings the makers of the arrangements allowed themself to make more interesting arrangements. Related: basses. Now, some might play with loose pedals, that's good. But many aren't. So, if you play the notes C D F A, will that be a Dm7 with a D in the bass, or a Dm with a C in the bass? More limitations, more cheese, more Swiss cheese holes in musicality! Also: sound. There's this notion that instruments somehow must always be realistic. Now, look at your average Kontakt library. It's not easy to work with, there's a lot of manual work to be done. The right articulations, playing off-grid to let the end of a legato be alligned on the grid etc. etc. That won't work well with keyboards. I'd say that all acoustic instruments in a keyboard, including the high end models that get released these days, are terrible. And that makes it sound cheesy. It would be so much better if there would be more focus on synthetic sounds, at least there's no real-life counterpart for them, so no-one can claim that the sounds don't sound realistic. In a way I always find it adorable when some keyboard manufacturer claims they've invented something new. Like legato samples. Just decades after they were *really* invented though. And always used in a cheesy way. Added together, I think the keyboards/arrangers from 20 yrs into the future will still be cheesy, as the problems sketched above can't easily be solved, unless someone invents an alternative way to somehow inject musical intentions and proper scales into the mix. But that won't be easy. Yea, you know what will happen? I've seen it with the PA-4x already: people rather playback MIDI-files, or whatever format, while only playing the melody-line themself. Because then you do get proper arrangements; custom-built. One might wonder whether it'd make more sense to just AI-remove the melody from original audio, and just play over it with any instrument, rather than buying these semi-computers we call 'cheesy keyboards'.

Great points, well made Woody. To my ears arrangers sound cheesy AF but the non-musician public seem more than happy listening to them. For me personally - I feel arrangers “do too much for you” and as a result are no good for practise if your objective is to improve your solo performance.

Nothing more cheesy than a step sequencer repeating the same one measure of blips and bloobs of an analog monosynth over and over again; then adding a one measure 4 on the floor drum beat repeated. Just because a synth user fills in the one measure of notes they think it is great and non-cheesy, they can't even play a keyboard skillfully. Yet, this is what 90% of what our synth world has to offer, the unskilled placing notes on a perfect grid and tweaking knobs. Compose your own style on the Genos2, add some original sound designs and the cheesy can go away. Original composition, musician skill, and passionate performance makes for great enjoyment, both for performer and audience.

Great video, Woody. The clue lies in the term 'arranger'. Those with a background in orchestration and arranging will tend to get the best out of the Genos, as they have the knowledge of different instruments and how they are played and combined. Couple of examples: use 'wide' voicings in strings, not triads, and if you're playing a brass or wind sample, remember that in real life the player has to breathe between lines! At its best, the Genos is an orchestra in a box, capable of coming up with music even fellow musicians will appreciate. But like every other instrument, it takes skill, knowledge, practice and above all TASTE to make it worth listening to!

Great video Woody, I am a non- musician of a certain age and love my Tyros5, although i would love to own a Genos2. Unfortunately the money flies out of my wallet these days. I like to play the Tyros and i am happy when i hit 3 correct notes in a row. All cheesy songs offcourse So now i will rename my Tyros and call it Gouda 5 😜😂😂😂😂 Greetings from the Netherlands

Brilliant video Woody ! I agree with every word. Yes, I'm nearly 70, a self taught home hobbyist, and I play my Genos (1) at home, mostly for my own comfort & gratification, although I do occasionally post my wobbly efforts on my RU-vid channel to give me a goal to aim at. I'm a sight reader and a lot of my music was left to me by my father so you can imagine the era I play mostly. Many happy memories of family sing-songs when dad played his reed organ ( foot pumped! ), piano accordion or trombone. The mid 80's is about as modern as I get. OK I also play in a band, but it's a brass band & I play the tuba. I have become very stuck in a rut and I have been toying with purchasing a synth to add to the Genos so I can experiment with new sounds and ways of playing before I finally descend into senility. Updating to a Genos 2 would leave me stuck in this rut, albeit with some newer sounds but, as I am unwilling to fork out a quoted £3100 (GBP) to trade in my Genos for the "2", I am investigating the cheaper option of adding either a Modx 6+, a Roland Fantom 06, or an Akai MPC Key 61 to my Genos. I don't want to start a flame war but, is there anyone out there who can offer advice on this or is in a similar position to me ? Thank you for all of your videos Woody, I find them fascinating and inspiring.

The subtle humor in this video... Brilliant! :D Even the bit with deliberately editing-in the fragments from the wrong camera (the one that Woody were not looking into at the moment) and other basic editing and recording "mistakes", subtly exaggerated for comedic effect that would suggest having a big distance to the opinions of "cheesyness". :D

sorry Woody, it’s cheesy as heck. It’s the ‘midi robot’. A better alternative is to buy a good keyboard and buy good backing tracks. Even for a large repertoire it would be cheaper than a Genos and sound human because it is. With love, Ken

I think what makes them sound cheesy is the lack of dynamics, like this one has fairly good samples but the instruments in the arrangements are played really flatly, and I've heard people programming more impressive MIDI arrangements using technically worse sounds (I'll say the guitars in the last jam were impressively programmed though). But I love things like the wavestate, wavestation etc. which can essentially work like these - one or a couple of accompaniment layers and a melody layer. It's really just a matter of making the accompaniment sound dynamic and interesting, and a lot of the standard arrangements on these do not, and thus sound cheesy.

The first application of AI in music, lol! I think some of those old home organs had some of the auto accompanist features back in the 70s?

Great video. Like you said. It depends on the repertoire. I have a psr-SX900, and I mostly play popular songs in my own version by using funk, ballads, jazz, and other expansion samples styles like reggae, kompa, latin, african etc. Every other musician asks me where I get my "beats/rhythms." It's about how good player you are and how you use your creativity.

Yesterday night I played in a big pub with my rock band. With two midi controllers and a vast collection of VSTs. I had a lot of fun. Being 59 yo, I know that this will not last very long. I soon will be forced to stay home alone. Then I will buy an arranger. To have fun alone. Who cares about cheesy sounds... I love Parmigiano Reggiano

The cheese slicer is commonly used in The Netherlands Woody 😉 You should visit The Netherlands it is a lovely country

If a band could play perfectly on the grid, it would sound cheesy, right? These machines are built to reproduce music perfectly and make it easy to access the sound. You can't simulate interaction between musicians who are constantly reacting to new requirements, moods and audiences.

Hi Woody! Fun video. As I appear to be in the demographic this keyboard is aimed at then Yamaha need to do a rethink. Cheese aside, there is no way I could afford the Genos II. Especially as I live in Canada where everything is at premium prices (anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 more expensive than the US). Apparently, money falls out of the sky here just like snow (but never anywhere where I am). Speaking of snow, you don't get snow in southern Sweden? Until the next video...

Your instruction and comments are very much appreciated! What i would like to see is a cool performance where you add your own playing. Then explain section by section how you used Genos 2 to accomplish it

I think that's a good term for this gear: It's an entertainer keyboard. And I really hate entertainers - those one-man-shows on parties where the man with his organ tries to replace a complete band. And I don't like keyboards trying to emulate guitars, saxes, trumpets. This definitively sounds cheesy.

Oh my the typical MUSICIAN can NOT begin to OPERATE one of these Arranger Keyboards. I CREATE all my own STYLES for each song. I SING while playing the KEYBOARD and controlling the entire band. I CONTROL the backup SINGERS (whom I also CREATED their setup) while my LIVE performance is going on. I have found playing Guitar whether that be LEAD, BASS or RHYTHM is a piece of CAKE compared to playing this instrument. Using only the STYLES that come with this instrument (which are cookie cutter) are for the retired at home player, who is the usual owner of this $5900 instrument. If you are one of those to master this BEAST you can create much better yourself. The YAMAHA styles are only demo examples of what you can do with styles.

Depends on how you use and play them. If you play cheesy music with cheesy sounds and styles then it'll sound cheesy, but this is down to taste. Someones cheese is another persons favourite style (musical snobbery effectively). As an ex-pro-entertainer, I've had to play what I consider cheese to entertain and get paid.....it's called playing to your audience. But, don't underestimate the power of these tools. The Genos 1/2 and Korg Pa5X are extremely helpful instruments in a live stage setting. I primarily use my Genos 1 to play backing tracks (midifiles - purchased from MidiSpot AP who make extremely well produced tracks), with phantom powered mic plugged in and straight into my PA. Real easy plugin and play.

I have the PSR-SX900 and I mainly use it for the the original sounds..Love the pianos, and acoustic guitars.. I just use the entire board.. I love being able to use three different instruments at one time. (countrolling octaves on each individual sound)I seldom really use the accompantiment, only when feeling cheesy, as they say...lol.. There are a few good set ups on the PSR, bu t I will be heading over to Sweetwater, to check out this new beast...

Cheese can be fun. Most people like cheese. We had a nice long holiday singalong last week as I played a Yamaha PSS-F30!! Now that is cheesy. But we had a great time!!

Not impressed with the sound tbh I prefer my Yamaha Montage and Korg Kronos

Well, you couldn't have tried harder to hit 99 on the cheese factor scale with what you demonstrated today. Most good musicians play what they like. Great musicians play what their customers like. Outstanding musicians know how to split the difference and mold their performances toward the mindset of the audience. There is a difference between gig performances (often solo) and stage or venue performances; often different equipment too. I like what I'm seeing on your channel.

“Stir up emotions”? Why yes, I was laughing my ass off. You’re right about the audience, but arrangers don’t HAVE to be cheesy. There is a serious instrument there that can be played without any cheesy accompaniments. As for the hand held cheese slicer, I have one here in England. Yes it’s a nice bit of kit. I also have one that grates.

I thought this version of the Genos might fix the points that are basically UNmusical. But I don’t think so. Working with other musicians the best do exactly what is needed and no more and,interact with the part you play not drone on regardless. It does not matter how you play the left hand the accompaniment part stays the same. And yes the best players use features to press extra buttons to disguise this but their left hand cannot play on the keyboard during this. I tried two versions of the precursor to the Genos and hated the second even more than the first and now concentrate on the piano for the musical freedom of enduring less mechanical perfection. I found it embarrassing to play if you used the intros and endings also. Magnificently programmed and sounding like a combination of the Hollywood Bowl orchestra conducted and in between you come in with your pan flute solo! And if you get applause when you stop you feel like a total fraud and scurry away ashamed. I can even see this happening to the amazing Peter Baartman in his shows. After 40 years I thought they might have done more to fix this but the Genos does have a horrid fascination I must admit and of course continuity of approach means that it definitively sells. End of my much needed rant and thank you for the opportunity Woody!

I stand by my original comment on your very first video on this (as a ex Yamaha homeworld employee, who worked with Richard Bower Uk Brand ambassador for TYROS) “no-one does cheese like Yamaha” they have their place, they have their audience, you cannot fault the sample quality, it was never a criticism of you, your playing(which is great by the way)

they are fun to play....u forget your problems....life feels a little bit more tolerable...win...win ...win...☺

I find it cheesy and also good? We need a little cheese in our lives.

00:00:32 You have never been to the Netherlands

Works great for xmas covers! Some of the sounds can be cheesey but the melodica/harmonica/accordians are incredible

Trinity keyboard exams.. grades 1 -8 are solely for arranger keyboards. They are regarded no differently to the classical piano exams in terms of UCAS university points.

You've got it spot on as always! I don't really think of myself as "pro" at all; but there's a musical side of me that is thrilled at plopping in front of the latest Montage, Nord Stage, or like flagship wonder machine and having a tickle thru the cutting-edge sounds, while building and shaping new ones. Where the rubber meets that road, is that no one ELSE is going to particularly enjoy (let alone pay to hear) that, and it's just as you've said exactly! Anyone I've ever entertained (hopefully, at least partially) comes to drink, dance, chat, reminisce etc. Plonks and chirps, the odd synthesized howl or wonderful solo tone, simply isn't framing this experience for them. I have heard some restaurant musicians on very inexpensive and small keyboards, paint a wonderful set of very enjoyable, danceable, and harmonious music...on what any pro musician would consider, much less than ideal equipment. I think the Genos 2 specifically is a smashing board, and one I'd love to have and play on. On either of my current synths the process of setting up (recording, playing back, etc.) songs to play as you would on this arranger, would be difficult or next to impossible. I say pass the cheese; it tastes really good, and most people prefer it with their music if they're being perfectly honest.

Eh, here in the Netherlands we have chees slicers too, being a cheese loving country. And you're right, they are a great invention. By the way: cheezy is what you do with it, not the keyboard itself. And if you don't like the sounds then use or blend them with the ones you have in your DAW.

I got my first “Arranger” back in the 1980s and have added another one every few years as features and sounds improved. I think one of the best feature improvements in recent years is the ability to not just have style variations but to be able to customize them by muting individual style tracks. This gives even greater musical variation.

I'm a musician and play many instruments, but I do love playing on an arranger. Nothing beats the sound of a live band, but sometimes you just wanna jam out on your own and the arranger makes is perfect for that. It's fun and I embrace the cheese.

I’ve heard bad musicians make some of the coolest instruments sound cheesy, and vice versa.

Embrace the cheesecake. I have a psr sx900 deep dive and adjust/remove any cheese you don't like, add another real instrument such as guitar and away you go. Or add professional backing tracks on usb stick, adjust the various piano/strings to suit and away you go, superb quality. Having said that...The pianos on my Korg Nautilus blow it out of the water.

Hello Woody! Thank you very much for this video! The opinion, you expressed here is absolut correct, I agree on every point, you mentioned. Let`s enjoy making music, for others and ourselves and learn to have more respect for every kind and style of music. If it makes people happy, we shouldn`t try to debate or destroy it. Just use and enjoy the instruments we have and try to get some fun out of it. I play the piano, keyboards and guitar, and I used to earn a little additional money as a keyboard entertainer in my younger years and still sometimes today (not so much as in the past). Thank you again for your very respectful video! Greetings from Blackforest in Germany....and a Happy New Year 2024 !😃👻

Its just all about about taste and music style. I'm living in an cheesy switzerland, i like cheese and hate boring techno noise made with a handfull basic brainless waveshapes. Most critics on synth came most time from people who are just able to use preset and have no knowledge about sound design.

at 7:15, you just destroyed my entire perception of reality! 🤣

When i was young i couldn't figure out the point of an a arranger keyboard. Im not sure we actually called tgem that 😂, im pretty sure they were originally designed to give the lian keyboard player the sense of playing in a band at home or helping to learn how to play. I akways wanted to be in a rock band which never happened, then i discovered the 'workstation" and now im an orchestra, i play everything 😁✨

I was just having a conversation with some family members about arrangers last week and how I couldn't quite put my finger on why I can't stomach them. And I do mean that literally. I get nauseated, flustered, and will start to feel like vomiting after just a few minutes of listening. Visually it paints a picture of cheep polyester suits, drunken Santa Clauses, scammy carnivals, and dirty loli-pops. Yet here I am trying to figure out what my issue is.

The Cheese response comes to my lips easily because I’m a 50-something Canadian male who grew up around a lot of “arranger keyboard” like organ music (“Muzak”). Styles are incredibly FUN and if people choose to self-censor and self-limit, well, fine. The older I get the less time I have for people who want to control and police other people. People mocking organ music, arranger keyboards, mocking one man band entertainment, these people have lost the plot. If you can take an arranger keyboard into a seniors home or a piano bar, and entertain people, who CARES what anyone ELSE thinks who isn’t the one doing the entertaining. Gatekeeping behaviours are toxic. We should stop. I am myself guilty of policing other people’s tastes. Seriously, now. Policing other people and making sure they live up to other people’s tastes, that’s tacky. You are bang on about home organ scene. Arranger keyboard fans are often retired people having a blast. LET THEM HAVE THEIR FUN. The "playing tunes to amuse your family after dinner on the family organ" thing happened a LOT in Canada too. These days the classifieds are full of old organs with their bossa nova rhythms and their selection of electronic 1980s organ sounds. I plead guilty with an explanation; I find arranger keyboards cheesy. And that’s fine. My opinion doesn’t matter. That said, I kinda want a GENOS2, they're just a lot of money that I can't spend. I am guilty, I love cheese. I suggest that people who are crapping on things OTHER people love may want to pause that behaviour and think a moment on that.

Hardware synths are like a time machine to the previous century. With analog synths you can sound like the 70s, FM synths take you to the 80s and romplers are a 90s thing. Modular synths take you to the sound of the 60s and samplers are a 80s and 90s thing.

one of the best content about the meaning of music.. WOW! 😍

It's what you play and how you play it. A good player can set these things with minimal fuss and minimal layers of tracks to sound great and live, especially with left hand bass function.

Funny video with a good point. I think it's more of a opinion that people who use a keyboard like the Genos, uses them in a very cheesy career. And yes, you are more than likely to see a Genos being played in a old age home - very, very few of these arrangers have modern music styles programmed into them. I own a Tyros 5 and yes, much of the styles are cheesy. However, some of them are quite amazing as well. I use it as a song design idea station and not to play out for others to hear. I don't do covers.

Cheese is good, cheese is healthy, cheese if fun! Long live cheese!

Brave topic to dive into!! I have been critical of arranger keyboards in the past but I see your point, many many people love them. I guess I wish there was an arranger out there that could appeal to "musicians" and non musicians at the same time. How I would suggest that is, I know that there are midi performances, that's fine but some sounds just really stick out - brass and strings are the main culprit. If there was an arranger that had a little more nuance in those sounds I could see it appealing to more than one market - but that would be increased memory and costs and might not sell as well. Either way, good video Woody.

There's a lot of sound editing features that a lot of people never delve into. Attack, decay, sustain, reverb are just the surface. I think if you play the pre-arranged instruments primarily, they might sound monotonous and a bit cheesy. But that's why you need to delve into the expressive capabilities and the sound editing features.

If it helps you to create music and makes you want to play and gives you inspiration, who cares if they are quote unquote cheesy?

I would like an extra slice of cheese on my song please so delicious 😊😂 yes sir

As someone who owns an arranger (Korg PA5x) I will say there is an awful lot of cringe but what I want to gate keep as modern musician is that the arrangers can actual go pretty hard! if you set them up right. They are great for "rock" styles of music and EDM. once you master them. If you like Film scores your "band in a box" arrange is well up to the challenge! Also there standard use is increadible for the solo performer. its been a great addition to my studio and could potentially be fenominal for a live performance if I ever let out of the house

I had a sommerjob in Norway in 1968. That's when I discovered what the locals called an osthøvel (cheese slicer). Better than sliced bread, to someone like me who enjoys cheese.. In 2023 I expanded my music collection to include a Genos2. I had a Genos1 a few years ago but got rid of it on the mistaken belief that it was not proper music. You could say that about my Push3 as well. But like Woody says, you would be confusing the tools with the end objective: making enjoyable music. And shock, horror! Not everyone likes the same single style of music. I also have a chanter for practicing bagpipe music 😀

woody wood cheesy .. I have a tyros 3 and CTX 5000 and i have to say the arrangers of today are amazing and give a singer player so much freedom ..

Cheese slicers are also available in Scotland. Its a major export second only to whisky.

I grew up playing Roland E-series, so it hardly can't get any more cheesy. But I think the solution for the Genos is easy, drop the saxophone preset and hire a real singer or guitarist. I've seen live artists play this way and they rocked the stage.

I am an older adult who started my musical journey a bare 3 years ago. and because of youtubers like you, I have two keyboards. one a yamaha p-515 for my music lessons and for learning the muscle memory of how to play a piano/keyboard.. and a yamaha psrsx700. I love the arranger keyboard for the sheer joy of being able to have an expansive library of voices, and the styles are just fun.. they enable me to sound like a musician and have a ton of fun doing it. everyone's musical journey is different.. keep on doing what you do

I remember back when I had my Yamaha PSS-680, which for its time was a very sophisticated home arranger keyboard with features that even Genos2 currently lacks. I generally preferred the dance and more modern sounding stuff, but to this day I always remember thinking to myself, everything sounds like demo tracks. The pre-canned content will naturally give a rather generic sound even across different performers, but at least with Genos2 and modern arrangers, you do have the option to choose which bits of the style you want, their relative volumes, and layer up plenty of sounds so if you are more gifted in the composition arena, you’ll be able to produce far more original sounding stuff compared to somebody like myself. The sounds themselves are also much more impressive, and so it can always be used as a digital piano, organ, or basic synth across the full keyboard. Think of the backing as inspirational extras, rather than the focus. When all is said and done though, it does come down to having fun with things like this. I loved my PSS-680 and have been looking at synths like Montage M to scratch a music itch and noodle around on. However, I’m not great at sound design and am not really bothered about recording or layering up multiple synths. So really, what’s going to bring more smiles? An arranger keyboard could be just the ticket, and while a Genos2 would be lovely, a used Genos or even a lower end SX could be what I need to look for. The built in audio interface on the Genos2 is worth having though.

I think you nailed it. Same thing goes for guitarists and tone. Audiences don’t care if you’re playing through an original Klon pedal or a digital modeler. Arranger keyboards also good for original composition work for those unfamiliar with DAW’s. The main issue with the Genos is the $5K price tag, I’d rather put that $5K towards a Groove 3rd Wave :).

I’m a guitarist, and didn’t know these things even existed until about a year ago. Now, I wouldn’t buy a Genos, but I would possibly consider a SX900. The price on a Genos is just too much for what it actually is. That said, I would love to have a buddy with a nice arranger to jam with. A two man band with one would work exceptionally well. Having one guy on a guitar played well would hide almost all the cheese.

I just don't understand why a keyboard that costs much more than a Montage doesn't sound nearly as good. If you don't mind sounding cheesy playing arranger, why not use my DGX for under US$1000? Is the Genos THAT MUCH better? The DGX is a great keyboard for home use and me as a hobbyist. I really enjoy it, but it's not a truly professional tool. If you're spending $6000 on a keyboard, it had damn well better sound amazing. And this doesn't!

Hi Woody! An entertaining video to be sure! You are exactly right when you say that the reason arrangers can sound cheesy is because people tend to replace what would usually be sung by a singer with a a sound of an instrument. I never thought about that before but it is really true! Sing to the accompanying music instead of playing and all of a sudden, the performance becomes believable. You are also right when you say that the large majority of audience, perhaps all, don’t care if it sounds synthetic. I always remember this instance where I was at an engineering convention - I am a bit of a bore and tend to like the “dry stuff” - while a colleague of mine who was there with me preferred to hang out in the lounge of the hotel where the convention was held, enjoying his espresso. When the lecture ended, I joined him and there was this fellow playing a Yamaha Tyros (3rd generation by the looks of it) and accompanying a pretty female singer. Some sort of a jazz fusion thing. When I came to my colleague’s table, he immediately stood up and said “Don’t sit, we are leaving!” Not because of the music, obviously, but because the small espresso was 8 Euro! The lounge was chock full of customers and they were happy to spend their money. Just bring your arranger keyboard and find a decent singing and looking singer and you are on your way! But my fondest memory is from my college days when I was at a party with a friend and instead playing music, some guy brought a Yamaha PSR-550 arranger. This was in 2003 I believe but I still remember the model number. It used diskettes for data storage but man, what a great party! The guy knew all the songs and could played them instantly and everyone was having a great time just singing and socialising. Woody, I also want to tell you I really like your sense of humour. You went out of your way to make the Genos 2 sound as cheesy as possible! It was really hilarious! Cheers!

My workstation and stage keyboards work great for my own enjoyment and in a band context. Arrangers work great if you don't have a band. I have a Korg i3, and it works great with singer-guitarists in a duo setting. Pa5X vs Genos2. So far the Pa5X is in the lead, and as I'm primarily and organist, the 61-key format works best for me. FWIW, I dig cheese. One of my favorites is a theatre organ model I have in my Hauptwerk rig. If I had the money and the space, I'd have an Allen TO-5G theatre organ for my own enjoyment! Cheers!

Rearrange the following - Hammer, Head, Nail, Hit. (embelishments ARE allowed) Answer - Woody, ya just hit the head of the nail with the hammer..... Ba Dum Tss

Well, if you are a 'hard to please' musician, it helps if you also an engineer. You can make some really great music with this, but sometimes you need a hex editor to program it with your own original ideas (if you want customized styles, customized chord recognition, customized multipads). And a laptop :) But still, I love it. I'm also a bit of a masochist.

when the arranger keyboard is fully programmable it is one of the best things to have. lesser models can play the data but cannot do a full arrangement of the music. I hope to get me a Genos someday even though the Tyros5 76 key is good enough for me. I already have a PSR-900sx and I'm in awe of what it can do. With all these instruments I think the one man band has finally arrived.

yup! 100%

I'm not the target audience for an arranger, and that's totally fine. Genos seems pretty great for what it is. Though...if you just go for "mass appeal" you end up with suburbanites loving Top 40, McDonald's, Seinfeld, crossovers with automatic transmissions, and The Da Vinci Code. Disposable lowest-common-denominator products for maximum profit so soulless that their supposed inoffensiveness itself becomes offensive. At some point you need substance. That said, go for the instrument that inspires you, that you have fun with, and that gets you to your goals. Whether that's a 5k+ Genos, 50 buck kiddy Casio, or anything in between, go for it. And if you do something unexpected with it, even better. What would Slipknot do with a cheesy Genos harmonica? What would Taylor Swift do with distorted bass on a PWM Malevolent? I think these are the real questions in life.

If used that way, they will! I’ve been using an PA3X for over 10 years on lounge gigs for the vocal harmonized and drum loops. Excellent! Not cheese! Don’t ever listen to the demos. I sear, someone grandpa made the tracks. Very square! I’d give my right testicular to have a new Genos 2 , too pricey! But awesome!

Hey Woody, thanks for more fab content. This one particularly struck a chord (oops) with me. I learnt on organ, then onto Technics arrangers (which were awesome). I deeply regret parting with my Technics 6500 in the pursuit of owning a synth. I ended up with a Roland juno gi, which was way too clunky to operate and I've not enjoyed playing since 😢. I then bought a yamaha mx61, which has great sounds for my budget, but again lacks that playability for my skill level. Happy New Year to you and yours xx

I took about a year's worth of piano when I was 8 or 9. I never studied, I never practiced. I can't read bass clef and I don't know how to 'fake' a bass line. I'm on my third arranger keyboard (all Korg) and I really would like to get rid of my 13 year old PA800, and get a new PA5X and/or a Genos 2. Why? Because I can play them and make music for my own enjoyment. That's what it's all about, at least for me, and the people who hear me play usually enjoy it, although I am by no means a 'good musician.' This comes back to what you were saying, most people who are non-musicians don't hear the mistakes, don't understand what all goes into an Arranger Keyboard, and what doesn't go in, or come out of it. But, there are some really talented people who can take an Arranger Keyboard and make it sing, Alois Muller comes to mind. What Allie does with an arranger, Korg, Genos, whatever, totally blow my mind. What he accomplishes with a single keyboard, even something like a Korg PA700, really gives you a concept about what these can really do.

..."eine Schwarzwaldfahrt" is the org. German Song title, my Grandfather loves this too in 1978 and I played as a child on a Yamaha home organ for him..... I think the engl. title is a black forest walk (also my home are...). And at this time, a home organ was also cheesy 😂

The reason why most workstation players play the melody line with their right hand is that we don't dare to sing :-) Also i play by ear, and it's not always easy to figure out how to play a song the way a "musician" would do. But i don't play to earn money, i play for fun, sharing the fun with like minded people, and visit and do keyboard workshops, so we can learn from each other. in other words, a great hobby, and i don't care that some folks dislike the Yamaha workstations, as long as I like it.

I checked out some arranger keyboards, before just getting a MODX6+ last year. I don't play live, and most of what I do is my own compositions, so it really doesn't suit me. I have a MODX6+ and a Sequential Pro 3 SE I got earlier this year. I suppose I could have just waited for the Montage M. But I think the Pro 3 has features nothing else really has, so it has it's own unique sound. But I think the Motif has better sounding Piano, still, but it's mostly in storage now.

Cheese, Grommit! ❤

Oh BTW, your "Funky "Street Life" on old PSR Arranger Keyboard" sort of belies the whole cheesy thing.

the guitars in genos family keyboards often sound cheezy ( as in inauthentic ) but occasionally more authentic and when so - actually FUN!! ( to play ). Woodwinds, strings,drums usually sound very authentic when played or - stylewise - programmed - right. I think much of the "fromage" might just come from what the right hand is doing, namely if RH is just playing a straight melody version of some pop tune ( of course typically just the one for the currently selected style ) then its definitely going to be cheese - unless the melody is musically embellished and interpreted groove/rhythmically-wise well by a trained or able and creative musician. But one can use any style just as a backing for whatever one wants- and if any improvisation in the right hand ( maybe even left - chord wise! ) is involved then the "cheese" (as in sounding lets say "corny" ) - or lack of ... - will - naturally - be down to the skills - or lack - of the person playing such instruments... all imho... of course

Cheesy does not mean : "non-natural". Arrangers do sound natural. But the sound is more like "Washed-out" or "Diluted", compared to workstations. Maybe the "beyond natural" sound of the workstations, make those better. - Very important : Sometimes arrangers even sound too "harsh" and you have to take time to tweak the factory sounds and the Styles. But most users just play everything out-of-the-box. - 2:02-2:28 - "... That's one reason". Well, reason number 1 doesn't stand. Because : Workstations are also capable to construct patterns that resemble styles, and those do not sound cheesy. Workstations also have synthetic and sampled sounds, so this reason doesn't stand either ... Workstations also have MIDI based sounds, so, no difference. - 2:30 - The choice of Styles also does not matter much. - 7:10 - The reason why people just love arrangers, is because the patterns of each song in the making, are ready to use and one can compile them however he wants. It's understandably why a synthesizer with a filter-sweep or whatever, is only entertaining them for 1 minute. It's because there is no sequencer produced song in there. People generally do not care about sounds and effects, but about the message of an entire song. - 11:11 - You yourself agree with me on the point I made just above. - About the instrument brands : I've heard musicians like me, and I agree with them, that Yamaha sounds pointy and harsh, Korg is in the middle and innovative, and Roland has the softest and warmest sound.

No comment on the stilton-esque nature, I'll cheddar you. Some points tangentially for gouda: Lots of money to have the equivalent of a sing-a-long around the upright, but I guess a piano was never cheap and consumed your parlour space. Once radio appeared the number of people who grew up listening around the family clavi dropped, as well as the number of people who could pluck out a tune. And I think that's the market too - family rooms, church basements, and such. Someone composing music might not find a use for this except as a distraction. Finally, as with all good things, the more you put into it the better it is - But maybe not Un-Brie-lievably great.

I've always liked these. I remember playing keyboards like this that are now over 25 years old, and people loved them back then also. Nowadays they are far better. Not perfect, but it's the same with proper quality sampled music in a DAW... if you are a musician, you can always tell. But to anyone who is not a musician, they don't care.

Personally I suppose the cheesiness mainly comes from lack of richness of versatility to the tones. For example, a synth pad tone from a workstation keyboard might come from a number of (let's say, eight) layered and detuned sawtooth samples with their filter cutoff, element volume ratio and chorus depth modulated by individual LFO's with different rate, thus the sound changes continuously with an extremely long (sometimes even infinite) cycle. However, a typical arranger keyboard can only use not more than four samples and not-so-abundant filters and effects to create the sound, so the richness of versatility is compromised. Also most arrangers don't give the user too much degrees of freedom tweaking the sounds during real-time playing, so it's nearly impossible to make your supersaw distorted sync leads sweep and glide and portamento and vibrate and wah-wah and grunt and growl and screech and meow with wheels and joysticks and faders and buttons and touchpads and ribbons and D-beams... too much limitations for playing expressively.

I have a reggae back round playing with Jamaican artists. I used to despise the cheesy horn patches knowing that I wanted a full on horn section to get that sound. Well guess what you cant always hire a horn section out. Vocalists points to you Mr. Keys. I have learned to love and embrace the cheesy patches. I love them so much. Thank you woody for all your videos. It was because of your Korg M1 uploads that I convinced my father before he passed to loan me the money to but an M1 from craigslist. It came with the brass card. That has all the cheesy horn sounds from the 90's !! Respect. May the cheese live on.

Because of the culture in Japan that regards music as a learning or artistic activity, arranger keyboards are regarded as "lazy people's instruments" or "instruments that can cheat," and are not popular at all. In fact, Yamaha Genos series, Roland E series, and Korg Pa series are not available in Japan except for a few products. In Japan, there is also a tendency to look down on instrumental music rather than vocal music, and some people even ridicule it as elevator music in the West. However, everyone has his or her own way of enjoying music. It is only when people can enjoy music in various ways that more people can come into contact with it. It is a wonderful thing to have an ear that can distinguish between good and bad music. However, when we start saying that others should also have that standard, confusion arises. Everyone should be free to choose how they enjoy music.

Nothing cheesy about the price of those arrangers. Wow! I'm a Band in a Box fan, but I don't think it's a direct comparison to the arranger keyboard. Still, it seems like an inexpensive piece of software could handle the job

Kind of disagree here. If you just start a style and fill in the blanks by playing the melody into it it will indeed sound cheesy because every bit of groove is missing. Enjoyable music is about nuances. But with an arranger you have to take the lead. My fav examples online are grubenpony12 (see what he does on a sx600) and of course Peter Baartmans and only a few others. Their performances don't sound a single bit cheesy because they perform as band leaders, not as slave to the rhythm box. Play the songs you admire, then choose the style, not the other way around. Two of my now deceased friends were amazing live performers and while they had limitted musical knowledge they had the drive to entertain the audience.

My grandmother had a Lowrey organ with selectable accompaniment. Cheesy is nostalgia

I just had to delete my previous comment about energy and nuance after you taught me something surprising. You know the really weird architecture that's supposed to convey some concepts which only other architects would understand? As musicians, we can do the same, while the general public doesn't care about the brilliance of our key changes and mastery of music theory. So my focus on nuance and drive may actually be me geeking out much more than I'd realized.

While I have an arranger, I don’t play with accompaniment feature. I have it for other reasons. That being said, not all things are for everyone and not every critique is worthy of addressing. Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. If a Genos isn’t for you, sometimes it’s better to not get worked up about it. It servers a purpose for some and does it well. I play for person enjoyment and composition. Thus, the styles don’t serve my purposes. But the next guy who gigs, a Genos may be the ticket.

Hello, je suis en France et je regarde et j’ ecoute souvent tes vidéos, moi je joue de la musique dans la rue avec le psr sx 900 ou le 600 de Yamaha. Je joue tous les standards français, italiens, brésiliens et anglais saxons, mon répertoire s’étale des années 30 jusqu’aux années 80’ et les gens vieux ou jeunes aiment bien ça, alors n’écoute pas trop les gens qui te disent que tu fais de la musique ringarde ou dépassée.😊😊

One's cheese is another's useful stuff! Use the features to is best! I would not use the Auto Accompaniment! Use the drum machine features, slit the keyboard with some nice bass and strings or synth pad with a piano fo your liking!