Well there is a difference between reviews and editors. Goodreads and other book websites are for readers. Those are spaces to review books so others can look it up and see if a book is for them. Editors and other people that stand in contact with the author in some way are for the author. These are the people they should take feedback from. Authors need to stop coming into reader spaces. Maybe due to booktok a lot of newer authors seem to not get this. Also something I don’t get is that if you publish something people are going to have different opinions. Personally I wouldn’t publish something when I’m not sure if I can take a negative opinion and can differentiate between actual hate and somebody who just didn’t like the book. If it’s going to hurt you just stay of those websites.
Thanks to certain “author” I ended up finding my new favorite RU-vidr. I am also a woman who enjoys extreme horror but I’ve seen so many people disregarding some of my negative opinions as me not being able to handle it. Sir, I just hate your book, not the entire genre.
@@haileyhughes thanks to you! I am binge watching your channel rn. I am glad to see someone being into the same content but also validating my limits when I don’t feel comfortable with certain “narrative” decisions.
I’m really disappointed that it seems like dark romance and extreme horror readers are unable to critically analyze the work we consume. If you say anything critical, you’re “shaming” other readers.
Ya'll are reiterating everything I feel about extreme horror. This is a genre I've loved since I was a young teen. American Psycho, Exquisite Corpse, The Wasp Factory, Clive Barker. But the majority of what I read today is TRASH, extreme just for the sake of being extreme. You cannot write this genre unless you are a exceptional writer with a good story/characters. If you're lacking, you're just a creepy weirdo publishing rape fantasies GOODBYE. The Beauregard books, Woom etc, ive tried and literally have 0 intrest in trying again, trash. Tender is the Flesh tho 10/10
I didn't know Clive Barker was extreme horror. I have only read a couple of his books and I kind of like he. His book Cabal was the first horror book that was not written by Stephen King. It was a weird read after growing up with King's novels.
Thank you for bringing Dark Romance into the discussion. So many books get promoted online for being “edgy” when it’s straight up SA. The “don’t read if you can’t handle it” defense is absolutely used in dark romance too.
This conversation is so important to the Extreme Horror Book Community. Thank you for talking about these issues and bringing it to attention. We do need to talk about it more and start making some changes.
Most extreme horror is crap, honestly. I write it, too, but there's a difference between something actually good and well-written than has a point (Jack Ketchum's Girl Next Door, J. F. Gonzalez's Survivor, Bryan Smith's stuff, SOME of Edward Lee's stuff) and stupid look-at-my-chewed-up-food gore-porn (I could list a bunch and would like to since I wasted my money on a lot of lazy, untalented people's garbage, but for sake of not starting shit, I'll pass). Extreme horror has become a lazy genre that everybody thinks they can do, because you don't have to have story skills as much, just a head full of nasty gross ideas and some adjectives... which pretty much anyone can do. I've been grossed out by four year olds talking about eating snot or whatever... it's not hard to do. And a lot of it is nothing more than rape-porn... it's not horror, because it doesn't scare, it just tries titilate something sick. It's only gotten worse since self-publishing unfortunately became a thing, because it gave a lot of people access to the public who, honestly, shouldn't have it. And it makes you want to quit taking chances on new authors when so many of them are such untalented crap. I like the kind of extreme horror that would still be a strong story if you cut the gore out. If you start with a strong story, then, by all means, pile on the brutality and viscera.
THIS 👏👏👏👏 if the story is nothing without the brutality….. i don’t want it!! people say i’m a hypocrite for praising the books you listed and critiquing “less extreme” works because they only see it as an issue of extremity. in reality, that is not the issue. it’s really the level of commentary and storytelling that i’m looking for
I have to be honest, I’ve loved the extreme horror community, but I’m rethinking my stance based on some of these reactions. Reviewers should be allowed safe space for discussions. Reviewing BOOKS should be allowed. If a mainstream bestselling author was behaving this way, we’d be cancelling them. The threats of violence and the like is just horrific.
I know! It's so weird... any other genre readers would be called out on day one... have you seen these comments, it's like, why the fuck are you defending child rape?? Is it fun to read?? Obviously these ppl don't have healthy relationships with family/society.... there is no reason to defend books raping children. FULL STOP.
She's given a 1-star review to a Matt Shaw book she didn't read. She has a RU-vid channel dedicated to reviewing and talking about books. How can anyone take her seriously when she gave the 1 star to get Matt Shaw's attention? Where's her integrity?
@@MrFragar123 she literally did this once because he dedicated the book to her and called her a ‘nazi’ and ‘trout’ and she won’t stand for it. None of us should
@@gee6538 ❤️❤️❤️ yes! Exactly! Hailey has every right to give that book a one star and to say what she said in the review because what Matt Shaw did is embarrassing to himself and embarrassing to other authors... Hailey is bringing the heat and I love to see it..
so I’m watching this with the live comments showing from when you were doing the live and my GOD did some of those comments infuriate me 😤 we love you girls keep doing what you’re doing!👏🏻
I found your video from angelika oles and im so impressed by how even-handed, calm and expansive this video is. Ive often got the same feeling from horror books and films. Sorry youre getting so much gross attention from weirdos Subscribed!
I'm glad to see extreme horror booktubers talking about this stuff. My first foray into extreme horror/splatterpunk was with The Slob and then The Groomer. While the latter was certainly better written than the former, I remember being annoyed at the way the antagonists (both men) were portrayed - it gave incel vibes with the whole "these guys are so disgusting and pathetic and that's why they do these things" and not "these guys are disgusting and pathetic BECAUSE they are doing these things". It's a fine line to differentiate but in my everyday reading, I go out of my way to read fiction with historically under-represented authors (i.e. women, POC, LGBT+, non-Western, etc) so it was really jarring to me that men were writing other men like that. Since then I have gone out of my way again to find splatterpunk authors who are women, so I appreciate your reviews and how you can elucidate your reasons for liking or disliking certain books in this genre - it helps me find more good ones!
In my opinion, I've never seen or even heard of reviewers being attacked by "authors" because of a review before tik tok happened 😭 what has happened to this world ?😭. I am so so sorry that you are being disrespected like this, it's truly mind boggling that a grown up is allowed to act like they did towards you 😭. But chin up Queen you got this! Don't let him or the people who for some unknown reason support him win ❤. All get what they deserve in the end, and if they can't even handle a little bit of criticism maybe they should rethink their career path ❤. You have done nothing wrong ❤❤.
This has been happening for way longer than tiktok. There was a case where an author stalked and physically attacked a reviewer, and another wrote an article bragging about purchasing information about a reviewer and stalking her home and work place and leaving stuff on her doorstep.
@@jessicafeeney3996 Jessica You're literally everywhere defending your bitch boy in comment sections and replies on goodreads. Grow up you pick me, he doesn't give a shit about you and never will.
If a book is labeled as extreme horror and doesn't have a point, to me it would just be torture p*rn involving the subjects of the books. I don't read the genre, so maybe there's some nuance I'm missing, but it would have to be pretty small.
This is so important!!! I hate that the extreme horror community is being so horrible to you all. They would rather do anything than taking accountability!
Nobody has done any damage. Damage to who and why exactly? You are throwing around a lot of accusations without any back up. For an “influencer” you are not factually correct and that’s rather scary.
@@charwood3860 look at Aspen’s face when she’s talking about Hub. that’s the damage. it’s been done. if you can’t see those facts, idk what to tell you
My issue with extreme horror in general is that it feels like it was created in reaction to the presence of more women, POC, LGBT+, etc., in the horror genre. I'm not saying that those groups weren't always horror fans, but straight, white men tended to dominant and/or gatekeep the community for so long, but those groups are now becoming more vocal and open within the community. It just seems like the extreme horror subgenre popped up as a way to try to isolate those individuals once again, and people use it as a way to prove that you are a "real" horror fan.
Jokes on Matt, he was trying to tear you down but it's how I found you, your videos are right up my alley! New favorite youtuber to binge while I work.
I didn’t realize this was the same reviewer till I saw your comment and when she was talking about authors that give you the ick when reading them because it sounds like their thoughts not the story that’s who I immediately thought of
Maybe one thing book sellers could do if they wanted to sell extreme horror is wrap the books. Essentially some manga series typically more adult manga can be sold in stores since they aren’t able to open the book before you buy it. These books also usually have a parental advisory sticker on the book too. I’m not saying to wrap every book that could affect someone but just like manga and comics there can be a line where we start wrapping the books. Personally I think these books should stay online order only but what happens when used bookstores get their hands on them. I will say I am not particularly a fan of extreme horror but that was just a thought that came up when thinking of booksellers.
Such a valuable conversation to have! Just loved the pauses while you were asking us to think about the lines we wouldn’t cross. We all need that kind of self reflection, whether readers or authors. So sorry about the vitriol from the defensive that are trying to avoid that reflection. Yes, sometimes it’s painful. We ALL get desensitized because that’s how brains work. So healthy to take a step back. Thank you both! Heading over to part 2. ❤
Quite honestly, I've been wondering myself why I've been sometimes drawn to it. This conversation has needed to be put out a long time ago. Bravo ladies❤
As a weirdo who likes to be disturbed by media, I would say that my limit with extreme horror is when it comes across as gratuitous. I have enjoyed books with disturbing subject matter because they have something to say about said subject matter. Flowers in the Attic by V.C. Andrews, for instance, had something to say about child abuse in a time when that was a very hush-hush topic. Then someone like Aron Beauregard comes along with Playground and all I get out of that was the author going: "LOOK AT HOW EDGY I AM!"
I agree with most of this video, I think a good solution to Big Box booksellers selling extreme horror is shrink wrapping books that come under that label. They do it with more adult manga such as Berserk and Goodnight Punpun and feel like it’d be a good solution here. I think white authors using slurs is a pretty hard line that shouldn’t be crossed lightly or at all. The only thing I really disagree with is the desensitization to the horror you read or watch. At a certain point that’s on you and you need to make a judgement about where you’re at and read other genres and take a break from it all. However this was a great nuanced and insightful discussion!
💯💯 yes totally agree! to clarify, the desensitization topic i was discussing was intended to be solely on the reader, not the community, stores or authors
Lol! There are good critics that actually critique and handle this genre way better than she does. She’s a really poor excuse for a critic, if you ask me. Her opinion can’t be made without dogging on people. It’s sad really.
As a woman with rape fantasies, I do tend to reserve judgment of people who like other "questionable" content like extreme horror. The suspicion that someone's acting out their rape fantasies doesn't automatically paint them as bad or dangerous since I know I have these fantasies and am horrified and furious at the idea of rape IRL. But I'd be lying if I said my suspicions weren't much, much higher if the author is male writing from a male POV and the fantasies were a lot more violent than the kinds I indulge in and riddled with misogynistic themes. Also, I'd personally never use whether or not I'd feel shame at the idea of people I knew finding out about what I read (or defended) as a sign that I'm consuming something wrong. I enjoy noncon erotica and don't think it's wrong to have rape fantasies or to read them. But I'd never expect most people I know to understand that these are just fantasies and don't reflect what I want IRL, so yeah, I'd be mortified if people in my life found out. Where I think there's a problem regarding authors using extreme horror as synonymous with dark erotica (what I read and write) is that extreme horror isn't, as you said, supposed to be erotica. Readers shouldn't be exposed to content they didn't sign up for. I think the stigma surrounding erotica---especially rape fantasy erotica---drives a lot of writers and readers to extreme horror, dark romance, and other places they can hide. That and the widespread banning of the genre. That also hampers people's ability to list accurate, detailed trigger warnings in some cases (though in the case of authors not warning for stuff like misogyny, I think it's precisely what you said---they're just blind to the problem in the first place). It's a very interesting question when it comes to extreme, taboo, and/or dark content. How far should dark content be "allowed" to delve into the realm of pure fantasy/entertainment/exploration vs. make an actual point? I was introduced to splatterpunk (which was defined as not the same as extreme horror) as a genre that was created expressly to push limits in opposition to censorship in horror, at a time when horror writers were holding back for the sake of avoiding gratuitous content. It is an interesting concept. Perhaps having a clearer dividing line between extreme horror and the splatterpunk subgenre would help make both camps happy? Or perhaps there is something inherently dangerous about the idea of no limits and it shouldn't exist at all. A lot of interesting things to think about in this video.
This conversation is very interesting and thought provoking. I feel like I’ve had a similar experience but with dark romance although the authors aren’t as unhinged and territorial. It’s so difficult when you love a genre especially when you can relate/feel comfortable to the darkness they provide but the constant heightened levels of gratuity and community can make you want to disengage.
Thank you for your intelligent, insightful comments about these issues. Please don't let anyone silence you. I think 'intent' is everything with these books. Sometimes when reading within the genre you get an instinct as a reader that the author was writing the book with one hand... if you get what I mean 😳 I would ask myself the question - would an actual r@**** or P***phile get off on this? if the answer is probably or yes... it's gone too far.
@grumpybooks3612 Thanks for your insight. I agree with your statement. However, as someone who has yet to read extreme horror (though I do read thrillers and true crime), how is what you said different from perhaps a serial killer reading your standard extreme horror book and getting off on it? I understand I’m told from those who read this genre that there is a line but I just imagine someone who only reads romance could say the same about anyone who reads extreme horror. How is one brutal, inhumane act worse than another? I know there is also the argument that if there is no storyline and solely brutality then that indicates a likely problematic book but then what about those carnival-style slashers that also really have no substance other than gore?…how are these ok if they primarily just depict murder? I’m not trying to argue but rather just generally intrigued by this commentary.
@@lauraking4946It has to do with the extent of the descriptions/what purpose they serve in the story/how they are written. For example, an extreme horror book that has to do with SA can feel like gratuitous, because the author takes too much time to describe the actual actions being done in a way that is gratuitous. Yes, people are going to find ways to get off to death, gore, SA, and particularly CSA within the extreme horror genre no matter how much you do to rip these scenes of any titillating factor. But that does not mean there is no purpose and we should just give up entirely, of course. When we discuss what sorts of things are okay to include, we have to ask ourselves: "for what purpose am I including them?" It is disrespectful to include traumatic content that is true to many people's lived experiences just for shock and drama, or to get off to it. It makes a mockery of their experiences and fosters an audience of people who treat real life stories as entertainment. This is the basis behind why we critique the true crime community. To bring things into perspective as to what I mean by "overly descriptive", I have read many books on CSA that are meant to be educational. People often include their writings about real life events and describe what would happen to them. One particular one, "Courage to Heal", was quite eye-opening. In the book, it had two interesting discussions about how you talk about the trauma you receive. The first way is the general way: "I was abused". The second way is the one you tell to your friends or family: "He assaulted me and held me down in the bed with his hands." The third way is the way you live with it: the smells, the feelings, the textures. The second discussion was around who you told. When survivors came out with stories of their abuse to those who found it titillating, those people would ask for "details". Boyfriends would get visibly aroused upon hearing details, for example. In one horrible case, a young girl told her friend's grandfather about the abuse, who then asked for details and proceeded to do all the things he'd just heard about to her and her friend. It is in the details where the titillation lies. Very few can get off to vague descriptions of actions: they have to imagine or hear or see far more detailed things occurring. You may ask, "in that case, why would people be more okay with gratuitous descriptions of gore, but not SA? Don't they serve the same purpose: to horrify?" Well, we have to ask: what makes SA different? The difference is that it is an inherently sexual act done to harm another. We cannot separate the sexual part from the assault. When we describe said assault in a way that is excessively detailed, we are only serving those who see it as a physical act to sate their own desires, and not a mental destruction. The horror of SA is not entirely in the physical act, but in the things it does to you mentally. In these extreme horror books, there is an extensive focus on the act itself when it is happening. Murder can be separated from lust, and so can gore. The same cannot be said for SA. Thus they are not treated similarly. Lastly: even if there is a focus on the mental destruction of the character, what matters the most of all is what feeling it gives the reader and the author. The basis of murder, CSA, SA on adults is power. If a book is written to clearly get revenge and is meant to make the person reading feel powerful as a character gets horrifically destroyed, then the author should be ashamed of themselves. Books like Matt Shaw's, particularly his one on Amber Heard, are obviously just meant to be titillating and the fact that he talks about the fact that his books get women off to flex show his real priorities. Like the video discusses, slashers and horrors are slowly disappearing from the extreme horror genre to instead prioritize SA and CSA material meant to gratify readers' desires. This clearly shows the difference in how murder vs SA is treated in fiction: one as something that could have good story merit, vs something that is more commonly used as low-brow 🌽. Extreme horror is a genre meant to horrify, but also to entertain. We can talk about whether this genre inherently exploits real trauma or whether it can be used for good all day, and those are worthy discussions. But in terms of why SA needs to be treated much more carefully within the space of fiction, I hope I gave you some food for thought.
This video is fantastic. I am on the segment of “How Far had Extreme Horror Gone”. I love this discussion. I started reading extreme horror thanks to Hailey and a lot of her recommendations have hit the mark for me. There two instances where I can recall myself feeling taken aback from the “horror”. One being No One Rides for Free by Judith Sonnet, the whole “second act” of that book was just there to push a boundary, for me at least, there was nothing moving that plot along. Then in another book I know you both loved was Them by Mique Watson the whole scene with the pregnant girl and the fetus could’ve been removed from that book and it would have been just as horrific. Again, I love this video and the discussion.
i love hearing how people have different boundaries for themselves, yours are totally valid 🫶🏼 no one rides for free is just about as far as i’ll ever go i think!
@@dawniebrooke1158 I'm saying that she has every right to dissect and critique Matt Shaw's work. He said that he writes art lol. I love the horror genre and I have no problem with people having a discussion about a problematic horror book written by a man that is said to be a piece of work in real life by those who know him.
@@dawniebrooke1158 Its not art, that's what HE calls it. And all art gets dissected, doesn't matter if its extreme horror or poetry or a painting so he's wrong to be annoyed at her for talking. I had a typo, that was my only edit. Stop attacking random people who are agreeing with Hailey and not Shaw unless you support him.
As much as I despise censorship and embrace the necessity of deviance in art, I don't support the behavior of this author OR the community that is supporting him by mimicking the bullying. I do not agree with everything said in the "negative"/ preachier portion of the video, but the need for a discussion is valid. I do understand loyalty. Personally, I feel a little bit of that to Meg. She is also a talented and brilliant woman, and I thought it was a bad choice to shame her in the video. She wasn't mentioned by name, but probably like many subscribers, I saw and rather enjoyed her take in her own video, and easily made the connection.. Brnging different perspectives to the table is the beauty of discussion and why I follow y'all . That said, the way this author and his posse has behaved in their reaction is pretty real life misogynistic sick. Who would see how they have acted and NOT start questioning their intentions in the fictional realm? Standing with you on this, Hailey.
Thank you for this video! I’ve started getting into extreme horror books the past few years, and I’m always interested in more critical discussions of the genre and its ethics. I found you on tiktok during that whole mess, but I’m loving your content so far!
I just avoid extreme horror because it seems like a cishet man club. Yknow the men who think showing you videos of people dying is normal in casual conversation.
I'm tired of extreme horror that relies only or mostly on sexual abuse/violence. That is not what I'm reading this genre for. That is not unique or a fun time.
This is totally wild to me. I can’t believe how the extreme horror community is treating you! They need to take a step back and go touch some grass. Like in what universe would an author go after someone personally for a not great review???? It’s literally like The Last Word. Lol I think their echo chamber is making this 1000 times worse! They are banding together and bashing real reviewers for critique. That’s wild!!
@@haileyhughes No one. There are people in every community that take things to the extreme. It seems like there are more & more people have problems with obsession. It’s in EVERY community. (K-Pop anyone?)
you really have me thinking of triggers, and can we really ever be prepared on an individual level? I understand your point and agree, but I was reading a traditionally published book. I won't name the horror book b/c of spoilers, but there was a very very prolonged attempted suicide scene. it was pages of this person trying to die via hanging. it may sound completely stupid to some people, but my absolute favorite singer in the world died via hanging suicide. when michael hutchence of inxs died it absolutely destroyed me. to this day I cry about it. it also made me leave an abusive marriage. after it happened I thought what are you doing with this person who absolutely tortures you verbally on a daily basis. Michael couldn't get out of his painful situation because of his traumas and what we now know was a traumatic brain injury. I knew I deserved better, but to this day I am traumatized by his death. to read this prolonged scene made me physically sick. I went and threw up. I was absolutely floored that this book didn't have a warning about this scene. if anyone has trauma around losing someone to suicide I just do not get this! I know this is long-winded, but I think for me to use trauma for shock value that adds nothing to the book, and this didn't, is lazy writing, and not to give a trigger warning is downright irresponsible. I am shaking writing this. I can't even stand to think about it. be careful out there readers, and don't let anyone tell you your feelings aren't valid.
Wait yes, the instinctual reaction to the ick. I also read alot of extreme horror and it's that moment of seeing the author. You're taken out of the story and instead are hearing the authors thoughts....being masked as a characters. And it's just...ick kinda scary. It's like finding a friends secret racist violent reddit account. And now I just unpaused and you reiterate exactly what I was saying 😂😂. I read one recently called Meat by something D'lacey. And while I actually liked the story, it was like holy shit this author HATES women, it was just leaking out of the pages, so hard to ignore. ICKY
I literally paused it before you said your part....and then you said the exact same thing. It's not the subject matter causing that feeling, it's like being tricked or something
Totally agree with what you guys were saying at the end, I remember reading Pretty Girls and thinking it was too much for me. Now I devour (most of) Judith Sonnet books without much of a second thought.
such a wonderful discussion! i've only read one extreme horror book myself (gone to see the river man) which i really loved but i'm hesitant to read much more because of all the reasons you mentioned. the last thing i want to do is read a book full of gratuitous violence with no meaning or commentary behind it. thank you for your nuanced insights into the genre and i'm sorry that you've had some negative experiences with the community in general, i hope that talking about these issues means that they can be more widely understood and addressed!
@@charwood3860 lol you’re proving my points 🤣🤣 we get itttttt, you’re an edgelord and nothing is extreme enough for you 😎 go have a wank with matt shaw! byeeeee
@@charwood3860how more extreme can you get??? I know you already hate kids and enjoy reading about them getting sexualy assaulted... who raised you? Ugh
it depends how it’s done for me. i’ve read great novels that include SA content but they have meaningful and impactful commentary as well as representation and healing narratives for survivors (i am a survivor). it’s not just for cheap shock value
I agree with you both on a lot of fronts, here. It's more about who can be the grossest than who can tell the best story with some icky elements in it. And that's unfortunate. I don't want to walk away from a book and feel squashed from it. I want to enjoy it. A bit schlocky, a little grossed out... but if it's not enjoyable, pass. The Boy's Club feel to horror in general has always been around, and it's definitely compounded in extreme horror spaces.
I watch all your videos and originally skipped this one because extreme horror isn’t my cup of tea, but I saw your short on the drama and felt compelled to watch this and Aspen’s. Thanks for a nuanced, intelligent conversation. I thought you were both respectful in your constructive and valid criticisms. Matt is hypocritical when he preaches about free speech, but lashes out in such a vindictive, mean spirited way when you voice your opinions of his work. You’ve earned a fan Hailey - don’t let him or anyone get you down ❤
I came to this video because of ~that problem~, with ~that author~. I'm Brazilian and this whole story is disturbing, because the "extreme" (I think) horror milieu I'm in seems pretty healthy to me. RU-vidrs who read things that I don't have the courage to, admit when a work crosses the line. And the most famous authors are accessible. I'll give you an example with someone who wrote some strange things in the first book, years ago; and he recognizes this, the other 3 books have none of that and even the protagonists have become less detestable people. Another example is a popular series on brazilian Netflix (Good Morning, Verônica), adapted from a book written by my favorite author and a female criminologist. The book is MUCH heavier than the series, but in both the female representation is good. Even the female protagonists in his solo books are cool.
People commenting their opinions without watching this video and the second one fully is WILD to me. People are allowed to have whatever opinions they would like of course, there is no shame or harm in that. But at least make sure you’re having an informed opinion. And not informed just from what you’ve seen other people say or screenshot from this (or anything for that matter!) that takes things out of context and doesn’t provide a full picture. Maybe you’ll still dislike the full picture and that’s totally fine! But that’s where the echo chamber she discusses comes into play. It’s easy to hear what other people think or see cherry picked bits and pieces of this video (or other) videos and jump on the bandwagon, but how can you have a true opinion on something if you don’t come into it genuinely wanting to understand context from all sides? Like tbh I have opinions based on this video alone (that I watched in it’s entirety with an open mind) but I couldn’t possibly have an informed opinion about this topic because I haven’t watched the second video yet and I’ve also never been a part of this group or heard from/experienced the opposite side. Long post short, just don’t let other people think for you friends. There’s zero shame in disagreeing and firmly believing what you believe, but how can you truly know your full opinion on something specific if you don’t take the time to actually watch/listen/learn about that specific thing?
this comment slays- THANK YOU! all discussion is welcome but i won’t be answering anymore comments or questions that are already addressed in the video 😅
I’m so sick of reading comments that say these women were making judgements about the character of extreme horror authors and readers in general. How many times do they have to say “no judgement”, “make that judgement for yourself, or “think about…”? They were also very open discussing how they both did some deep reflection and felt shame and sadness. Maybe some of you are not capable of this kind of growth due to emotional immaturity, defensiveness, desensitization, projection…. I’m really not sure. Hailey & Aspen, If you’ve opened up one soul to having this conversation with themself, all this chaos has been worth it! 💕
i’m in my tati westbrook bye sister era. down with the predators :) 8/19 edit: *me wondering where all the crazy backlash comments are since most of y'all lovely people in the comments are approaching with openness and empathy* me seeing my "held for review" comment section: oooooohhhhhh, there they are :) they're just proving my point, y'all. people with no limit in extreme horror also seem to have no personal boundaries or respect when i engage with them online. when i say they're misogynistic, it's because beyond their written works, i see the comments they write calling me a $lut, stacy, etc. their actions speak much louder than any words they write in their books. 8/20 edit: PLEASE go like & share my response to Matt Shaw on tiktok. he was lying and harassing me over there, due to this video but I also suspect he’s had a long time vendetta against me considering I just found out he based a book on me published in March of this year. extremely concerning. this is exactly why this discussion was needed.
If you write a book and ask someone to review it and they don’t like it then except it and their is no reason to use the n word in 2023 in any books 📚 prayers and blessings for you and your family love your Aussie family friend John ❤❤❤
@@ering2467 lol i don’t decide what is held for review, youtube does. it’s not up to me. i try to reply to every comment regardless if i agree with it or not, but hate speech and derogatory terms are not tolerated on youtube
This is the first video I've watched on your channel and I'm a huge fan!! Wow! Love your takes. I've read horror since I was a kid, but just recently stumbled into extreme horror. I love that you two have a nuanced take on it. New favorite creators? heck yes! *also if anyone has any recs for extreme horror written by not cis white dudes, please let me know!
You are allowed to expect better from authors and to express that. I've never seen you give a review that was in any way hateful, it's just your opinion. Nobody should be making you feel bad for that
lol i cut out a part of the video where i was asking aspen if she thought taylor adams had personal experience with this to be able to write the last word 🤣🤣
As probably other people here, I found your content through the drama with a certain author. I'll not comment on it, because 1) you're probably tired of it 2) everything that could be said has already been by people way more versed than me (withcindy and readswithrachel) so I just want to let you know that I support you and you have a new subscriber that loves to watch videos where content can be analyzed critically
I feel like I don't have any limits when it comes to fictional subject matter, but I like your point about the author's voice. For example, is the author creating a first-person character who is utterly vile as an exercise or as an extension of themselves? Sometimes you can tell that it's the latter, and that's when I get the ick. But I also feel like some of the most effective extreme horror comes from the former, and in that case I just stand in awe of the author's imagination. I also feel like there's a place for intentional squick. Delany's "Hogg," the most disgusting book I ever read (and that includes "Hub," which I just found to be an inferior version of "Broken Dolls 2") was written as a reaction to current events in 1969, and thrums with righteous rage. As far as CSA goes, it can also be discussed wisely. Jonathan Butcher's "What Good Girls Do," as an example, is a very graphic but important and sensitive book, while something like that Laymon book "The Longest Night" (while far, far less graphic) is just exploitative trash, and certainly has that leering tone which gives me icks.
TW for SA, CSA in this comment Thank you for this discussion. Recently I have engaged in some very infuriating conversations with some readers that have been mocking others for not being able to handle extreme content. These people were making fun of the "bland" , "palatable" and "inoffensive" horror that is present in mainstream books. They put forward that real art is disturbing and transgressive and anything else is boring and puritanical. And it just didn't sit right with me at all. At what point did it become a bad thing to not be desensitized to csa and sa in the content we read? Not that being desensitized to these subjects would make one a bad person, but going on a power trip and shaming people for having boundaries? Participating in this culture of pushing people past their limits by mocking and belittling? It's a real problem. Another issue is when people claim that rape fantasies are normal and there's nothing wrong with creating content that fetishizes rape. I could not disagree more. I believe that engaging with rape erotica/kinks and getting off on that does not make one a future rapist. But it does make them someone I don't wanna be around, someone I don't feel safe around, and someone I would ask to take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves if it goes with or against their values to find sexual violence in media sexy. And if it doesn't go against their principles in any way, then I want to place a boundary and cut that person off from my life (and I have). So listening to this discussion has been very cathartic, and I hope those people that I have had to cut off will watch this too. Limits are important, and should be respected.
All. Of. This. 👏 I’m so so sorry you had to go through that belittling and ridicule. I totally agree with everything you said. It just feels unsafe. Standing with ya 🫶🏼
Thanks for the interesting discussion. Love your channel! I do appreciate some of the live chat discussion regarding authors’ creative license. While I do support respect regarding race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., I do think when it comes to fictional works and fictional characters, an author from any group should have the ability to write what is needed to depict a particular character..perhaps the character is a bigoted character. This shouldn’t be a reflection of the author’s personal viewpoints or character. This brings to mind movies….such as A Time to Kill (I know it is based on a book but I’ve not read it)…there are very extreme racist and abusive characters depicted but without including certain things that are said and acts that are done, we wouldn’t have that picture of them painted for us and we miss out on an overall great story….however, I don’t believe that the actors depicting these individuals are racist, they are characters…nor do I think the author or producer/ director is racist as they are simply telling a story which depicts an unfortunate reality of our world and its depravity and maybe can result in introspection regarding how we can do better….this is just one example. I’m not a reader of extreme horror myself, though I do enjoy thrillers. While I agree with the thoughts on Hub/children content, I find it hard to wrap my head around how this is declared over the top within a genre such as extreme horror while other books in this genre that depict murder and torture of humans and animals are not also deemed over the top…it’s interesting to me where the line is deemed needing to be drawn when the genre as a whole revolves around very disturbing matters…all of which are unfortunate realities (to some extent) of our world and perhaps all then should have an equal right to the genre.
for me, all of this is valid and i agree with most of what you said. there’s just a line. it’s not black and white, but there’s a limit. if you read extreme horror, you understand the discomfort of the “ick” feeling we mentioned. that’s an indication to me that i’m taken out of the world of fiction and i’m hearing the author’s commentary, whether that was intentional or unintentional commentary. with a lot of child abuse content, it’s hard to stomach…. and that’s just horror. i can handle it if it feels like there’s a reason for the suffering. however, hub and other books like it that we were criticizing seem to have zero “point”. there’s no meaning or message, it’s just 350 pages of straight up abuse. as for the racism, i think stories about oppression are very important and needed. depictions of racism are necessary to tell these stories. however, it’s not essential for white authors to use slurs in order to depict characters of color. also, the books which we mentioned have zero commentary on race. these comments are not to depict racism in the fictional world. it’s just to… idk… be gross?😅 be racist?😅 i still can’t figure it out.
Wow I didn’t realize the depth of depravity you deal with in this genre. I knew it wasn’t good but I couldn’t have imagined how terrible it is. I’m so sorry
Lol! What a ridiculous comment. You’re acting like it’s non-fiction, like the author’s that write it eat baby brains or something. Lol! It’s kind of funny how closed minded people who watch this channel are. Lol!
lots of good food for thought here. i’ve been taking a bit of a break from the genre after reading the book aspen mentioned…i finished it and felt that it had nothing to say other than pure shock value and when it’s something involving children it gives me too much of the ick, especially knowing actual predators are so in abundance and i couldn’t help but think if those people find out about this book they would uhhhh really enjoy it…
I love horror, dark romance, and thrillers. I have been afraid to delve in to extreme horror because of what you have listed. Im Black fat and femme, so im a bit more sensitve to some , extreme views and content . I look forward to the next video
You're not too sensitive! You're a human being and you're a beautiful person who has valid reasons... I've been called 'too sensitive' so many times that it's made me so angry... if someone calls me too sensitive again I will rip their eyes out... it's not allowed anymore
Extreme to be extreme. And don’t you dare say anything about it, because it’s our RIGHT to be extreme. Read the trigger warnings. That’s the normal argument I’ve learned.
yep. it’s an echo chamber with absolutely zero nuance or openness to criticism 😅 sorry but my job as a reviewer is to REVIEW… not just slap a 4 star rating on everything
chandler morrison is someone I feel pushes boundaries in a way I can read. there is always a point being made. he always digs into his character's psyches. if you haven't read #thighgap I highly recomend it. it is an instence of a man writeing for a woman's POV, but let me tell you I have felt every emotion he put in the book about my very mild eating disorder.
I have found that most extreme horror does nothing for me, not only b/c of the violence for violence sake, but just b/c the writing is awful. I cannot read bad writing. I see a sentence of richard Laymon I just cannot! I see tons of grammatical errors and it just takes me out of things. there are only a handful of writers who write well. and if it's just shocking, and I feel nothing for the characters I just roll my eyes. it doesn't disturb me as much as annoy me and waste my time.
These are big reasons why I've been avoiding actually reading extreme horror. I was to read actual narratives. I get it. Extreme is in the title. But if you're going to write a book write the plot and stoey and characters first then add the extreme elements where it fits. The arguments about Trigger Warnings is stupid because I've noticed that a lot of trigger warnings some authors have can be misleading to the actual content or more often I'm pretty sure that Extreme Horror authors also ommit trigger warnings that should really be there. You can choose to read and not to read these books that is true. Some people are okay with these things but if trigger warnings are misleading then someone who could be triggered by contents in a specific book could pick it up and read it and be hurt. I also can't stand that so much of the 'Extreme' element in extreme horror is sexual abuse. That's gross. It's gross and I don't want to read it. With Extreme Horror my original thought finding out about the genre was just that there was extreme gore that you wouldn't find in regular horror. Extreme Horror should be horrifying extreme NARRATIVES. Not just 150 pages of torture porn. There needs to be a story, a narrative. Sexual abuse can be written about but from what I've heard a lot of extreme horror books express that topic in a very exploitative way instead of a way that benefits the narrative. I want to read extreme horror but I don't want to read misleading torture porn that will literally trigger me. That's not enjoyable. No one should enjoy that. Disturbing fiction should not be exploitative of trauma. I'm not saying that it shouldn't exist but the trauma shouldn't be expoiltative. That can actually hurt people in real life.
💯💯💯 totally agree on this! the genre isn’t bad, shameful or a crime, but when it’s done wrong (aka with not enough care, attention or narrative) it operates on exploiting trauma and torture for the sake of it. 🤷♀️ i just want a good old fashioned slasher with some intense gore… everything else be dammed lol
@@haileyhughes This is why I'd much rather watch a campy horror movie with lots of creative kills rather than reading something that is realistic and could potentially be exploitative and triggering. Do you have any Extreme Horror recommendations with minimal sexual content? My goal is to find something like that because I just want to read a story that contains extreme gore rather than sexual assault.
@@flameheadshrek9786 yes!! i love night of the prowler by jon athan (reads like a 90s slasher movie, some sexual content but it all feels really ridiculous lol, SPOILER AHEAD- the worst scene is someone getting a corn cob shoved up their…. END SPOILER) and the cotton candy massacre by christopher robertson (fantastical carnival slasher, doesn’t take itself too seriously & the author writes it as if it’s a horror movie)
@@haileyhughes Thank you! Those are the kind of books I want to read! I love killer clown stories and slashers! Thank you for the heads-up about the sexual content in the night of the prowler.
i haven't read that one! i gave up on that author bc the slurs they use and writing style is not for me, but it's on amazon while hub was banned, so i imagine it's not as bad
As a writer, I would say the "ick" factor comes from encountering text (whether it's an event, a line of dialogue, or just a description/word) that you know is unnecessary to the work (because it doesn't jive or has no real reason to be there) and it comes from such a negative place (it's hateful or it's borderline psychotic), and you just get this kind of strange feeling from it because you "know" it's only there because the writer wanted it there and you start to feel almost unsafe reading the work because you realize it's been written by a person who holds these views that you abhor or find dangerous, on a personal level. -- The only problem I would say here, and you as a therapist (if I heard that part right) would know this: Our feelings aren't fact. We might feel that a writer has inserted this incongruous content becaus this is how they feel; this is their true value system shining through; when that might NOT be the case at all. They might be inserting this incongrous content simply to be edgy or to be extreme. It doesn't fit because they aren't artful enough to know how to insert that edgy content in a way that at least makes sense. It's so randomly done it just gives the impression it's there due to their own desire for it to be there and for their own desire to be edgy/extreme. -- An author can also be channeling their own trauma (subconsciously) through their work and an incongruous mention of something disturbing (such as rape or abuse) can be them grappling with their own trauma and not even being aware of it. They know this topic is always on their mind but they don't even see it as bad so it's constantly surfaces into the work. They aren't advocates of this behavior; they are victims; but they haven't figured out a way to actually address that so that subject just keeps surfacing in their work without them even realizing the pattern. -- This is all to say, while undoubtly there are times where the "ick" factor comes from "this person who is hateful has inserted their own hate into this book and it's so obvious and THAT disturbs me," that feeling can't be distinguished from "I think" this is what is happening but in reality XYZ (mentioned above) is what is actually happening. And because you can't make that distinction, I think it bothers people more, precisely in extreme horror because this is the genre were you get to unleash and just say things and express things completely unfiltered and as fiction, you expect readers to know the work is NOT you, and yet the assumption is, "If I feel icky, it is you." And again, your feelings aren't fact. It's also hypocritical to NOT want an author to get upst about a review, because "I'm reviewing your WORK, not YOU" but at the same time implying that their work *IS* reflecting them and their true values. You can't have it both ways. You either accept that sometimes you will make the claim that the work does reflect the author, in which case, they have the right to get upset by your reviews if they feel personally attacked OR you can never imply the ick factor comes from somewhere outside the work (aka the author) in which case you could tell an author who takes things personally to learn how to distinguish themselves from their work. But it doesn't work both ways.
this whole comment reads like a gaslighting f-boy wrote it lmfao- feelings are real. they are real and valid for the person who has them. much like opinion, which most book reviews are based on, they’re not “fact”, but it doesn’t make them any less valid. trust me, i work with intense emotion and trauma every day- when someone is grappling with their own abuse, it doesn’t manifest in their own abuse of others. the whole “men are hurting so they do misogyny:(“ narrative is so outdated and ridiculous, and i fear that’s what you’re touting here. additionally, i never said anything about authors not being “allowed to be upset”. i’m not in charge of anyone else’s emotions. however, authors do need to stay out of review spaces. they’re not for them. whether i make judgements about the content of their stories or the harmful effects (which does have a reflection of their character), they do not need to respond to it. in fact, when they do come on to “defend” themselves, it reads as quite psychotic. see: everything that happened to me in the aftermath of this video. so there, no hypocrisy detected… but a lot of shortsightedness on your end- hope this helps! :)
Honestly it doesnt matter anyways because authors shouldnt be in reviewers spaces lol. You will always look crazy as an author to get mad over a review because the reviews arent for you. Like as long as the reviews arent some crazy ass threatening shit like in this review i saw for a silvia garcia moreno book (the reviewer said she wanted to break silvias hands so she can never write again because her book was so bad💀) but like outside of that theres nothing you should have to say. Its a readers opinion, a reader’s perspective, and while reviews are always open to debate and criticism of other reviewers you will never not look crazy as an author for responding to bad reviews and trying to argue over reviews
Hub was the first extreme horror book that I have never ever wanted to read and I have been reading extreme horror books for over 30 years and I am 50 and I don’t even want to read it because of the child abuse
First of all I want to say how sorry I am for the experiences you have had with some authors and fans. That's truly not OK. I fully respect your wish to not share messages, but I am glad you at least have screenshots if things were to ever get legal. This was a really interesting discussion. The inability and refusal to be inquisitive and critical of the things we read and write is wild to me. Like, that's part of art and literature everywhere, how could it not also apply to extreme horror? This goes doubly for the bigoted elements. In fact genre fiction, particularly sci-fi, fantasy, especially horror, has such a problematic history that is often discussed. This isn't something new. I personally love those genres and am often saddened by the 'otherness' being one or more of particular intersections of marginalisation when there is so much existential and mundane elements to explore without the fantasy racism or horror misogyny. There was a point when you nearly lost me, but your clarifications definitely made sense. Individual perception can play a huge part in what is seen as OK or not OK with horrific results. The utter debacle over Isabel Fall's spectacular [Helicopter Story] being one that comes to mind (I'm trans, I adore the story and heartily recommend it. The text and original podcast audio are on archive org). I think people need to be able to make art or media or whatever about anything, but there is a huge difference between making something cathartic and processing trauma or what have you, which is incredibly important, and going out of your way to be an edgelord. If someone wants to to write something to ruin someone's day and someone else wants that experience, that's great and just needs some actual awareness and honesty from everyone involved so the rest of us can avoid it. There's a line between fiction and reality that I was lead to believe the leading research says essentially correlation doesn't equate to causation. I think dark thoughts, impulses, trauma and the like need to have a space to be expressed, but everyone needs to be grown up about, especially the creator and the way it is marketed and CW'd. I'll be honest and say extreme horror isn't for me, neither are things like loli and the like. I truly don't understand what that does for anyone, but I defend a certain perspective on it. When we are talking straight hateful and dangerous fantasies, and turning manifestos into prose, that's a whole other thing that's not OK. It's the edgelords and incels that are blurring and flagrantly jumping that line, which will lead to blowback on all and censoreship that will hit the marginalised and 'innocent' hardest as it always does. This is a minefield and I think it's really important and brave that you opened up these discussions. I think it would be really great to have on more LGBTQIA+, BIPOC, and those specifically processing their trauma and neurodivergences to really open this conversation up further. This was sparked by certain authors and frankly disturbing behaviour and spaces, but there is a lot more to talk about and take in, I think. Apologies for the ramble. the vitriol and abuse you have received for politely stating an opinion and standing up to misogyny is heartbreaking. Love, support and solidarity ❤
This video was interesting and well overdue. I would however like to ask Aspen why she decided to read "Hub" (in its 365 page entirety!) when she said in her reading vlog video that she picked it up after Mique's review (which was a very detailed dedicated review video with much detail and spoilers). She knew exactly what the book was about, and that it was banned everywhere and why it was banned, but she still decided to go to the trouble of ordering it from Etsy and then reading the book "in its entirety" and she did not put it aside when she was apparently so diagusted by it that she was crying throughout. She is now complaining about the book even though she put herself through the experience of reading it with full knowledge of its content. This is disingenuous. I am sure that 95% of people who watched Mique's review did not go on to order the book. Aspen did.
i don’t think you fully know what you’re getting into until you experience it sometimes, especially in regards to extreme content. yes in theory i can hear descriptions of events, but knowing details and word choice changes things. (i.e. the “ick” feeling that the author imbues throughout the scenes rather than just straight descriptions of the plot). to draw a parallel, i can read a brief news story about a crime, but sometimes engaging with true crime is too much for me. there might be a detail or image that stays with me. it’s not up to aspen to know what’s going to happen/ how things are going to be described before reading the actual book. it’s giving victim blaming 😅😅
Suzy, I agree with what you are saying. Aspen put herself through that. She’s acting like the author physically forced her down and made her read their book. Aspen sounds so ridiculous with her complaints. “It hurt my feel-feels because i’m sensitive, but i’m also going to read the WHOLE THING!” Lol!!! I don’t get it. I don’t like it, I don’t finish it. 🤣
I think I agree. I'm confused as to why read this...no one is being forced to read this. Pick out the good authors who do extreme horror right, and don't read the rest. Easy.
splatterpunk emerged in the 80s/90s, but recently authors prefer to identify differently with the term extreme horror. some authors refer to their body of work as EH/SP meaning that the terms can be used interchangeably. hope this helps!
I live in a country with a huge problem with GBV. So that's my limit. If you use gratuitous violence in your book just for shock value, I won't read it. I don't care what genre either. My partner sees those broken women at their most vulnerable.
Yes queens slay all day!!!! 👏👏🙌🙌🙌 so many insightful & powerful & important points were made here ladies! Yes to everything!. I’m so happy this exists on the interwebs. Jon Athan is one of the only extreme horror author’s I feel I can trust to not give me the ick & his works have a level of care & quality I haven’t seen elsewhere….
Sorry I have alot of opinions on this 😂. But also they're giving horror fans and extreme horror fans a bad name. I'm not comfortable telling people I like extreme horror bc they're going to think I read trash like Playground. Also I'm guilty of being judgemental too. There is a amazing book store in my city for horror/sci/fantasy (shout out Buckets of Blood Chicago) and they have an extreme section. I see a lone man there perusing books titled "F*UCKED TO DEATH"....side eye 🧐, which seems a little unfair bc I peruse the same section (not buying that book tho🤮)
Yes, opinions and honest reviews are allowed. But getting shocked and offended comes with the territory of extreme horror. Readers should have self-awareness and compassion towards themselves before choosing to read a book under the EXTREME horror genre. It is extreme for a reason. When you know you have traumas, the safest thing to do is stay away from material that is rife with said traumas. You cannot blame it on the author if you get re-traumatised, you chose to read that book.
i’m not upset about the shocking material. i love the extreme horror genre for its extremity. i am appalled by the UNINTENTIONAL misogyny, racism, etc. that many of the books in this subgenre perpetuate
@grimreader, I can 100% blame it on the author and THE PPL WHO ENJOY this type of book... you all need to get intouch with your inner child .. or maybe not, you'd probably have inappropriate thoughts 🤮🤮
it’s wild that this person is saying this, because when I read extreme horror I have to really think about my review before I post it because, I have you, Hailey in the back of mind saying “hey don’t you review this badly because it disturbed you, bc that’s what it’s meant to do.” Like you have always preached that sentiment. Slurs are not acceptable because what does that add to the novel, or the extreme horror aspect. Loved this conversation, and love you and Aspen both tremendously.
I completely agree with you …I find the books about CA and CSM so difficult …. It’s terrible because this is a real issue in life …. This awful book sounds like a tutorial for sick minds …. This video is very good … thank you for this content
Also, listening to you both has been so gratifying! Take a book like “Pretty Girls” compared to many other extreme books…. So well done and thoughtfully written compared to the ridiculous graphic dribbling of authors who write like naughty adolescents…. Your thoughts on this genre and those who write it is enlightening … Yes, bookstores have a responsibility to its patrons
Can you guys give some beginner friendly extreme horror recs? I’d love to try out this genre but I want to start out with a good book that’s not too insanely extreme.
I have been on such a reading slump this year due to mental health issues I have been dealing with. I love horror and true crime and even extreme horror... to a certain extent. It is strange too, because I was diagnosed with CPTSD & major depressive disorder. I am 39 and have struggled with mental health my entire life. I am doing much better now after a mental hospital stay at the beginning of the year. I have been back to work since April. But I still have not been able to get myself to sit and focus on reading. I am getting weekly therapy (EMDR) and its been a true roller coaster this year. My reason in saying this is that I havent read much this year, so I am wondering if a lot of this is coming up this year?
after i posted this video i found out an extreme horror author has been cyber stalking me for months and dedicated a disgusting manifesto to me… so yeah. i’d say we do. besides that, it’s an issue no one is talking about because the community is an echo chamber. you know you have free will right? you know you didn’t have to click on this video if you don’t want to have this conversation right? ok good just checking.
@@haileyhughes Your passive-agressive condescension aside, *we* still don't need to talk about it. You know, I find it interesting that people like you try to shame the expression of unsolicited opinions, such as mine, in free and open forums like this. Usually with language like 'so move on if you don't like the content', while yourself engaging in the expression of unsolicited opinions on some genre or work of some description. Might I suggest to that you could also have avoided the thing you find distasteful by not clicking on it. Psychos are gonna psycho, and all the talking in the world won't change that. You might just as well have said, we need to talk about video games, because someone was carjacked. You go right on ahead and whitter out your psycho-babble if you like, for all the difference it will make, but *we* don't need to talk about anything just because *you* say we do.
@@Textra1 your comment doesn’t make ANY sense. video games and carjacking??? it’s a false equivalency. again, like i said before, you have FREE WILL. just because i’m opening the conversation doesn’t mean you have to engage with it… yet here you are :) no one is forcing you to watch or to comment…. yet you’re interacting like i am lol. thank you for the view, adsense & engagement 🫶🏼
@@haileyhughes You are perspicacity incarnate lol. Video games - Grand Theft Auto - Carjacking. It's a perfectly reasonable analogy, my dear. Your failure to make sense of it is entirely your own fault. It seems you fail to grasp my entire criticism of you, much less my obvious gaming analogy. You speak as though your concern about a genre should be *our* concern too; _today children, WE are going to talk about extreme horror._ *_*looks down nose_** No, *we* aren't. 😇
bro there literally is no “we”. you’re delusional 😭 i’m not talking directly to you. i’m a stranger on the internet addressing a wide audience who clicks on the video. if you don’t want to be included in the discussion, why did you click on the video?? no one is forcing you to have this conversation. you have free will. you clicked on the video. and you left some lame ass gamer analogy in my comments 💀💀 go back to gta role play reddit
The importance of this is unmatched, truly. I have to add, as someone pursuing writing myself, SENSITIVITY READERS EXIST FOR A REASON!!!! Utilise the resources given to you, use those willing to read your material, respect those who dislike it, and make changes where changes need to be made. I feel the same as the both of you with regards to underage characters. Before I became a mother, I read a lot of Cathy Glass. Those stories still to this day affect me but they were written with meaning and purpose. Now, I would struggle to read something like that, because I would be picturing my own children. However, I read the darkest of dark romances. Haunting Adeline...I had to take breaks at the end because it affected me so viscerally. BUT it was a story with something to say in regards to the abuse. The overarching argument is that if it doesn't have something to say/doesn't speak on a topic lesser known, then it's probably not needed. If you're doing it simply to make your whole book "extreme" or to harm your readers, then you're probably a sadist and/or a predator. Get some therapy to work through those feelings rather than attacking reviewers online.
no wayyyyy… does anyone ever speak up about it? i feel like it's a general understanding that if you publish any work you're opening yourself up to critics. why do these authors not get it??
You know, once something become more popular, it'll face increased criticism. Without limitations and proper regulations, extreme horror will just be cancelled and people will give both authors and readers THE LOOK. You know, when they think all of us are potential psychopaths and future murders, which is sad because I just want to find a good horror to give me the chill I want so badly.
I would've loved to read something like Playground as a teenager. Just pick it up at the age of 16 or so. It was around that age that my curiosity for extreme horror started. It wasn't until I was just about 18, and I was free from my parents' restrictions that I really got into it. I watched a Serbian Film when I was 17 and was fine with it. I'm not 18 anymore, though. I'm 23 and have just found out about extreme horror books after years of desensitization from extreme horror movies and shock sites, so I feel ready for anything
did you actually listen to the discussion? we address this question multiple times. there’s always a line. there’s always ethics. nuance doesn’t just disappear bc it’s horror.
I get the argument but I'm glad we do have the freedom to read what we want and all types of books are available for us to read bc not all places have that luxury. Some books are pointless and vile and torture p*rn and we have the choice to not read them. This is a great discussion I really like it, y'all should do discussion videos more often!
@haileyhughes Do u genuinely want to open a discussion? Or do u just want people to be on your side, take your stance, and agree with u? Bc the latter seems much more true than the former. And it is disappointing to see u be rude to everyone in the comments with a differing opinion
@@erinlchapman61925 i love the discussion that’s happening but i’m allowed to back up my own opinions while engaging in discussion. here we go again…. a woman is deemed “rude” for defending her take. give me a break.
Much like heavy metal music isn't played on the radio, and generally, if you want the more extreme stuff, you have to go out of your way to find it. Extreme horror is much in the same category. Chanced are if you've found yourself at the grips of an extreme horror book, you were looking for it yourself. More detailed trigger warnings should be created for beginners so they can choose whether or not they want to subject themselves to the atrocities on the page. The warning should just be in the book, though. As I get 99% of my extreme horror books on Kindle as opposed to physically, the trigger warning needs to be the first thing you see on the store page in the books description. As for being attacked for positively reviewing a disgusting book and trying to read it themselves after being warned by the reviewer not to. That's entirely on them. I'd love to see these kinds of books in my local Whitcoulls. I was shocked to find Exquisite Corpse there. However, having the books behind the counter or in a dedicated area with an overall trigger warning outline displayed to deter unsuspecting people
When i started reading there was no genre known as extreme horror but it seemed that anything can happen in a book as its written words and imagination of the reader.There has always been censorship in films.I would read books by Richard Laymon and Shaun Hutson at 14 hiring them from the library alongside Asterix and Tintin books.There was no problem getting them stamped and reading things that would never be allowed to be seen in the most extreme video nasty films of the time like Evil Dead or Driller Killer.
It offends me that we as readers are being told to apply this very restrictive suburban female perspective to our chosen form of entertainment. There are millions of other options out there, and we get to choose what works for us. People who promote book burnings and its modern cousin, cancellations, are rarely well received by history. If you don't like extreme horror, or any book, DON'T READ IT.
i am not restricting anyone, i’m sharing my personal opinions. you have free will at the end of the day. i love extreme horror and i will continue to read it. idk why i’m being portrayed as someone who wants to burn books when i literally just said hey let’s talk about the stuff that makes me slightly uncomfortable. men are fucking WILD.
Ya'll are so dumb and just parroting what you hear without using your own brain. I don't know how many times someone has to say "I love extreme horror but there are some problematic things". Which should not be a controversial opinion and you should ask yourself why you're so triggered about these valid criticisms and why you're defending what amounts to cp so hard...suspicious. Why don't you try uh actually listening to the discussion, and then forming an opinion.
it's kinda gross that you called all women who disagree with you "pick mes". it feels like it lowers all women who disagree with your opinions to be less then you which makes you no better then the men your critical about. your allowed to have your opinions but if you put the opinions out in public people are allowed to disagree. everyone has different limits. I definitely have my limits. I do agree with you about your opinions on tik tok and extreme horror in stores and I don't know how to fix it maybe it needs to be informed as 18+ and in a separate area from the regular horror section I also agreed that extreme horror is not erotica. I haven't heard anyone call it that yet and I find that more sickening then anything I've read in an extreme horror novel. I also agree that extreme horror rarely needs to be long. I think 300 pages is too long for an extreme horror novel. I also feel like there sometimes are blurry lines between campy horror regular horror and extremely horror. because everyone's opinions are so different.
Show us the video where you tell fantasy readers to take a good hard look in the mirror. Show us the one where you call them incels or tell people not to support certain fantasy authors. Perhaps the reason you're not getting backlash from other genre communities is cause you're not being rude to them and calling them out cause they don't agree with everything you say...
when a fantasy author includes gratuitous violence against women & CP/CSA with *no meaningful commentary* please let me know. i’ll pose that question to them as well.
@haileyhughes it's widely known what these books contain. Most have trigger warnings. I'd know I own physicals of over 200 extreme/splatterpunk titles. I think the problem is you're being derogatory towards the readers and authors of the genre and then acting dumbfounded at the response you get. When you verbally attack the character and morals of any reader (regardless of genre) you will find the exact same reaction.
@@colejohnson6476 if it’s widely known that these books contain misogyny (not as a literary device but as unintentional harm to its female identifying readers) and no one is talking about it, that’s an issue to me. i don’t think it’s the reader’s fault though
@haileyhughes but then when the readers aren't taking problem with the things you take problem with, you tell them to reevaluate themselves and imply that they are incels.... right. You still fail to see how your choice of words created the backlash you complain about, It's truly baffling.
It’s wild to me how you can sit there and say “if you enjoy these books or have no issues with these books, what does it say about you?” and then follow it up with how you and Aspen aren’t implying anything as y’all aren’t saying anything, yet you asking that in itself is casting judgement. Just because for some people that line that shouldn’t be crossed doesn’t exist in the same way it does for you and Aspen, doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with them. If anything there’s something wrong with y’all for trying to make someone feel ashamed all because they weren’t triggered or didn’t cry over a book like y’all did. Y’all are also practically attacking/judging any reader that doesn’t get an ick feeling from a certain trigger all because it gave y’all the ick. If the reader doesn’t have the same thoughts or views as you, there’s clearly something wrong with them, right? That doesn’t make y’all any better. Clearly the extreme horror genre isn’t for y’all, so just stick to regular horror and thrillers. There is such a thing as varying opinions and we don’t have to go around being mean pick me girls.
girl. we addressed every single one of these points in the video. idk what to tell you if you didn’t watch it 😭 i opened a discussion. not shaming anyone, if i’m shaming people who like extreme horror, then i guess i’m shaming myself !!! lmfao
@@haileyhughes y’all didn’t though. your video alone is negatives, you stated that from the beginning. we had to switch over to aspen’s channel to hear pros and even then y’all didn’t touch on the genre the way y’all did on your channel. you’re not shaming yourself, because you go on to talk about a book that you’ve never read, have only heard things about and then continue to go in on the author of said book, as if you’re better for not reading it all because it crosses a line for you. also this may be a discussion on the genre but the community is extremely small, and it’s evident that not only are you attacking Matt Shaw and other extreme horror authors, but you’re also attacking small booktubers in said community like Meghin and Mique. it’s so evident and you claiming it’s not about them nor are you implying anything is laughable. you say you’re 100% honest - so be honest about it. hasn’t it been weeks of posting on your CF stating you wanted to expose certain people? you brought up great topics, I’m not denying it but as a therapist yourself, attacking people the way you are is baffling, actually.
@@zepoleon i opened a discussion intended to give a space to voices that are rarely heard in the community. & being 100% honest and transparent- i will expose anyone who i think is being a shitty person :) so that’s exactly what i did. that’s exactly what i’ve been saying i was going to do, and i followed through on exactly what i said. in fact, i’ll say it again: I THINK THE PEOPLE I MENTIONED NEED TO DO SOME SERIOUS SELF WORK. THEY ARE DANGEROUS BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS A LINE. is that clear enough for you? that’s not me “attacking” anyone. i’m allowed to have an opinion on anything, and i’m allowed to share it. if you don’t like my opinions, don’t watch my channel 🫶🏼
