This is in no way, shape or form an attack against Pavel & StrongFirst but a (hopefully thoughtful) biomechanical analysis of vital differences, that make or break an exercise. Especially when it comes to a highly complex exercise like the Long Cycle. I say it already in the video, but I feel the need to state it as well in the comments, since I’m fully aware of the tribalist mindset that permiates the kettlebell space. And yes of course, this is RU-vid. If we talk about popular figures in our little niche, this draws attention which helps the channel. I’m trying my best to do this in the most respectful way possible. I also want to make clear that I’m open to fruitful discussion. Am I missing something? Am I wrong? Let’s talk! Thanks to everybody for contributing to this massive growth we’ve been experiencing lately by the way! I appreciate ALL of you! - Gregory
It's so cheap to use other people/channels to try to make yourself more important! And especially with the photos you use of yourself; like you see someone got killed. Really disgusting! I unsubscrive.
@@diederikkonings3244 like someone got killed ? I don't understand ? 😄 The way strong first teaches Kettlebell training is not 100% right In the book which I like I learned alot it's also so super tight and inflexible looking most you can learn from training often and for a long time Look how they train in Russia Girevoy sport or not Young guys and girls in the gym always with a trainer Good technique and doing it right is important And if Gregory want to show how it's done good and easy Why not ? Pavel coming from Russia the CCCP he knows exactly how a good clean and jerk looks Hardstyle was what he invented to sell in America
I find Lebe Stark's videos like this very helpful since they are pointing out common issues, sometimes from people I learned from. Without these videos I might never know the right way.
Thanks for sharing Diederik! Your first statement tells me that you didn't read the pinned comment brother! As for the thumbnail: This is standard procedure on RU-vid; this stuff makes people click. Don't hate the player, hate the game! lol - Gregory
Efficiency was never the goal of hardstyle, it's power development. They are very clear on this. So saying it's not efficient is pointless. If efficiency is the goal, one should train GS. HS goal is not to do the most clean and jerks in 10 mins
As previously pointed out, this distinction doesn't cut it for me. Let's consider a Barbell Snatch; one of the most explosive movements you can do. You still need the most efficient bar-path to power through the exercise. Anything else is creating "unnecessary effort". Efficiency is always key in every movement. I get your point that we need high tension exercises to build different forms of strength; I'm with you on this. StrongFirst has GREAT high tension techniques. Interestingly enough however, research isn't clear cut to define how much explosiveness can be gathered from kettlebell training. That's a point that remains debatable. Additionally, Soviet training systems never included Kettlebell Swings but rather Depth Jumps to max out power. And these guys used the most elaborate scientific methods for their athletes. Finally, the HS methodology was created with a clear distinctive goal to be separate from GS for marketing reasons. That's an interesting aspect to include into this discussion. - Gregory
@@BuJammy I did GS for 10 months. It was not efficient for me at all. I would go to Jiu Jitsu and was extremely burnt out. HS transfers so much better in everything in life.
@@lebe-stark At first I was against what you were gonna say, but after watching i kind of agree. Your best point for HS people would be that the most weight you will probably be able to jerk will be with GS method from the rack. I don't think the swing matters, and is totally contrary to the HS swing. It's efficiency removes the ballistic tension from the swing, and we love that to much to give it up! I don't do jerks because I don't really experiment with maximal KB lifts. To me this is something you learn when you want to try to lift the most weight you can over your head, like an Olympic lift. I suppose that if I was going to try something like double 32s this would be better, and that submaximal work would be for technique. For the non GS person, I would say stick to the push press. If you want to learn something new, GS jerk will probably see you achieve overhead PRs. At some point when I decide to learn the jerk I'll probably do a hybrid version where the swing will be HS, and the jerk will be GS. I wouldn't do this move for more than sets of 3-5 for high effort low RIR as I can just push press for endurance. Good video brother.
I get it. This is why, after learning HS first and falling in love with their C&J and training it for about a year, I have adopted GS training. If you want to succeed at this lift, you have to go girevoy. The referenced S1 video comes from a training course designed for BJJ athletes who need minimalist conditioning for their sport (and probably have their own mobility issues). I think the idea was to give them an easier to learn, entry level conditioning lift (and supposedly the program is very effective for their needs, it's more A+A style). Nevertheless, for those like you and I who just want to lift, the inefficiency doesn't cut it. I can see value in what Neupert would say in his programs - if you can press a weight, you push press it; if you can't push press it, you jerk it until you can. For the sake of getting to the point where you can press a weight, using hard style jerk until you can push press is a strategy, because the movement patterns are similar. But that's with the goal of eventually strict pressing, not getting more jerk reps.
I find your KB videos very valuable, but this one is a big cut above the rest. The slow motion part is just exceptional. The good news is that I devoted long times at viewing your previous videos on this exercise and at practicing a lot based on your indications, in order to master the technique and to build the necessary muscle memory (including how to handle the kb); and now, watching this ultimate video, I understand that my technique is not bad, even though it can be improved, which should make you happy about the quality of your tuition. Great job Greg; thanks a lot and keep it up Fabrizio
Excellent as always Gregory. I appreciate your approach and breakdown here. I would be very interested to hear a discussion about the c&j with you and Luca. I am a huge Pavel fan, but the last couple of years have switched to the GS style of kettlebell training. It has really given me an appreciation for both styles. One thing you mention about Pavel's background is that he must've been familiar with the correct long cycle c&j. I am not so sure. I don't know if you can find it anywhere, it used to be on youtube, but the original RKC video that guys like me all learned from 20 years ago, when I look back on it now the technique is very suspect, and makes me wonder how much training had really been done with kettlebells before the release of that book and video (Steve Cotter might have some very good insight here). That said, there was a HUGE difference in the hardstyle technique by the time Enter the Kettelbell came out. I did hardstyle snatches and c&j for close to 20 years before switching, and never injured myself. However, I never did long high rep sets of anything. Working longer GS sets the last few months has aggravated my shoulder. I think of the main kettlebell exercises the HS c&j leaves the most to be desired as you explained so well in this video. Well, there's a long reply to a short video! Thank you for making such interesting and thought provoking videos like this one! God bless.
Thanks so much for your feedback brother! Great reading you often in the comments! You make an interesting point pertaining to Pavel‘s history. His technique in the beginning was awful compared to today. It also ties into what John Ducane said, of how him and Pavel wanted to intentionally distance themselves from GS. That created this idea of two styles which I keep losing faith in the more I learn about the tool. Good call! - Gregory
Look at fedor valerenko He was the first to come to America but did not market Kettlebells like pavel He is a real champ from the CCCP and there's nothing soft in training with flow like in Girevoy sport Hardstyle to me always looked the opposite way of athletic sport or training Stiff and not moving with the weight , moving against it
@@ru8775 Valery Fedorenko was eve invited to a seminar in the early days by Pavel T. and John Ducane. They intentionally decided to got a different route to set themselves a part. - Gregory
Thank you for explaining this. The SF video along with others just looked like a weird push press. Your video makes this a completely different movement!
Your long cycle jerk mechanics are well explained. Some aspects I've never heard before. I learned Hard Style jerks since RKC days from Pavel. To my understanding of Hard Style jerk, the mechanism that causes inefficiency is probably intended. Absorbing forces to feet and abdominal muscles rather than developing force mechanism from leg drive seemed to be the key. I still don't understand the concept fully as I don't teach nor do jerks very often despite traditionally being one of the two kettlebell lifts.
As always great explanation of c&j from GS point of view. As someone who does LCC&J program from Pavel 2 times a week and at the same time having BJJ classes 3 times a week, I feel like for most of BJJ practitioners who are not so deep into kettlebells, GS LCC&J proper technique might be to much of effort to learn, as BJJ in itself is already so complex and most of us prefer to work on the mat rather than in the gym. I think that Pavel intentions in that program were to show easy to learn technique of C&J but hard to master. Greetings from Poland and thank you for your hard work Gregory.
That‘s a great point Sebastian! There are way better alternatives to teach simpler yet effective exercises, without diluting the difficult ones just to circumvent the need for skill. I‘m sure, same goes for BJJ right? The highly technical stuff require an immense amount of knowledge and practice. Trying to take a shortcut then just because I don‘t want to learn the skill, will lead to a watered down version of the original. - Gregory
While I agree that the hardstyle clean and jerk is ineffecient but hardstyle was never meant to be effecient. The hardstyle snatch is also ineffecient but its purpose is to develop explosive power not muscular endurance. I think there's room for both styles in a training routine. Anyone agree or disagree?
I get your point! However, the body is geared towards efficiency. A jerk is a highly explosive movement. This doesn't mean, that you should create unnecessary effort. You still want to move as efficiently as possible to get the most out of the movement. - Gregory
He's not doing either type of jerk correctly. Here's a video of just some regular person doing better push jerks with a barbell - dip, drive & punch, re-dip, stand it up. ru-vid.com6X7H1lZUV28 ... Inexperienced people do it slowly and non violently with no explosion and no elbow lockout which is what I see in the StrongFirst video.
I am sorry but this critique puts doubt if anyone really knows kb or are just winging it... I am oversimplifying or kb have been too complicated by its proponents....there were never such confusion or techniques with dumbbells, so am planning to stick to that going forward
If you know any skill to a decent level you learn that we are all just winging it in the end. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t better or worse ways to think about things depending on your goals, but an idea of absolute correctness only exists in the mind of a beginner. I also say this as someone who still falls into the illusion that things must be a certain way. I’m no better.
This is a „high level“ critique of the biomechanics of one the most complex kettlebell exercises. If this confuses you, don‘t sweat it! Kettlebells can be easy to get started with. Yet, the more you go down the rabbit hole, the more nuance you will find. As for dumbbells: the fitness world rips itself into pieces on defining the perfect angle for an incline dumbbell bench press. It’s just the nature of discussing loaded human movement. LOL - Gregory
Yeah, I worked at a gym for ten years and to say that there were or are no confusions or discussion about the proper way of using dumb bells (bar bells, cables, machines, etc.), just shows that the individual has never dived very deeply into that particular rabbit hole. And whether that exploration is really necessary or not shows itself only once people have actually stuck with a workout routine and/ or a certain type of workout equipment regularly, for more than three months. So first get a routine with the fitness tool of your choosing and then work out twice or thrice a week for three months and then see how for you want to explore that particular space of physical training. I’m short: don’t overthink the beginning and never stop exploring and learning at any point and in any area of your life. 😁
Thank you for this, I was wondering why my knees hurt from jerks and this is why. Perfect explanation and I can try this exercise again thank you so much!
I think pavel's ideas are to apply in the context of a limited set of weight where you want to get tired and exert the max effort in minimum time without necessarily having to up the weight, and while I see the value in other exercises as someone who trains at home with limited equipment and need to make the most out of it, I think in this case after your breakdown it makes no sense for a "hardstyle" C&J
Great point! The limited weight options of kettlebells make it rather a power/endurance type of tool. I think that most people don‘t need max effort but a minimum effective dose. - Gregory
To me Pavel's style is closer to how I learned it with a barbell. The active rack is closer to the high rack / front squat position. The squat style catch is also closer to an Olympic lift. To me it seems less like Pavel was wrong. It seems like the sport style has evolved further from the Olympic lift to harness the nature of the Kettlebell. Two approaches to the same lift may make it better for those transitioning from the barbell. I do agree about his final catch. That is not a good way to preserve your knees.
Imo this critique fails to explain how the hardstyle C&J is dangerous. Sure it's inefficient if we compare it to the sport style C&J however it's a different style and thus strives for different goals. If the hardstyle one is dangerous, then this critique would make sense; If it isn't then this critique only serves to show the difference between the two and should be named "comparison" instead
the biomechanics of the hardstyle C&J should be analized in relation to the hardstyle goals of tension, muscle recruitment and explosiveness, not the sportstyle goals of efficiency
@@lebe-stark I love your work, but if it's merely inefficient then your video should allude to that and not be a sensationalisation. I confess to being a total amateur, but I think that this video is splitting hairs.
You have a point about the way they do a second dip. Barbells require a slightly different path; yet they also demand efficiency. That‘s what‘s lacking here. - Gregory
Interestingly, Bill Esch has a video detailing the jerk where he makes the point that the hardstyle jerk would be the equivalent of jerking the barbell holding it in front of your shoulders rather than on them. He says the line with the hips on the drive is the same for barbell and GS jerk.
Your point is exactly what adds to the confusion sometimes. By the way, a long cycle still gives immense strength endurance. This is also a form of being strong. - Gregory
I‘m fully aware of this Michael. This has nothing to do with difference of styles and I‘m slowly starting to abandon this idea of there being two in the first place. - Gregory
To me it seems he was using a lighter weight than he was supposed to, judging by his build. Probably just for the demonstration's sake, but yeah, if it was all messed up, then what was the whole point?
I'm not saying it's messed up. I'm trying to point out, that this type of technique doesn't cut it for a high volume exercise such as a Long Cycle. - Gregory
Great point! The HS curriculum offers so many great options. I have even seen some of them demonstrated under a diffrent banner whith inferior technique. The Long Cycle however, belongs into a diffrent camp. - Gregory
The clean & jerk is part of the Strongfirst level 2 certification. Gregory's whole premise relies on the practioner being able to reach their iliac crest with elbows. Not everyone is built to do this or will achieve this.
Thanks for sharing Thomas! The rack position can be achieved by everybody. It doesn't necessarily have to be on the iliac crest of the hip; it can also be higher along the stomach area. If you want to do/ teach a Jerk correctly, you have to follow its biomechanical foundation. - Gregory
See dudes like this make me feel like unless you got a PhD in bio mechanics and kinesiology you shouldn't go near a weight rack. E=mc squaring some thing that seemed like a simple and straightforward workout just makes it feel less accessible. Plus the way your doing it seems like it puts so much more unnecessary strain on your lower back. The bald headed looks so stable and strong yet we're told he's doing it wrong.
This is a technical analysis about different techniques. If you‘re a beginner getting started with kettlebells, you‘ll get no value out of this video. If you‘re on the other end of the spectrum however, you‘ll enjoy technical discussions.
This is exactly what beginners look like when they're learning how to jerk a PVC pipe in place of a barbell except Pavel and his buddy are supposed to be experts lol. Brutal. -Ryan
Holy crap! People, do NOT do the move this way.... Please. This is horrible form that will wear away at your lower back until it is garbage. I was curious to see what he was picking on from the Pavel video...He really doesn't dip well, but has really good alignment. This... this is absolute trash.
Do you know what kettlebell sport is? It's been around much longer than "Hard Style" developed by SF. Search for Denis Vasiliev, world champion in kettlebell sport, he and other competitors have been moving this way for well over 30 years. Before you label something trash or make claims about the lower back maybe learn about the techniques first.
I guess it a matter of perspective. I was thinking the exact same thing as you. The way he does it looks like he is straining and placing a lot of stress on his LOWER back. The guy in pavels video looked so stable and like he had more control over the movement.
While I don't agree with all of this video's conclusions, the GS training method is not dangerous. In fact, it's often safer than hardstyle, which is what I practice. When you understand the way torque works (which you are implicitly claiming to do), you will understand that the GS long cycle, in fact, exposes the spine to less torque, not more.
