I understand getting rid of stages that add walls onstage (like ps1 hazards on), but I want more stages with moving platforms. Yoshi’s brawl and yoshi’s melee would be refreshing compared to the stale ruleset we have now. The current ruleset feels less like smash bros than it should, and they don’t even want to experiment with different layouts
That’s not exactly true - stages like Yoshi’s have slanted edges. Certain characters become invalid on that stage, like Zelda. Her Phantom does not hit the ledge on either Yoshi stage. Severely limiting her ability to ledgetrap. It’s not fair for characters to be forced to ban a stage because their move no longer works on a stage.
@@katyparrygg my character bowser jr also somewhat struggles with slopes because they mess up kart dash. I would still prefer it over the ruleset we have now, but there are probably some better ways to spice up the stage list
I really like the idea of blastzones mattering more for matchups. Its just healthy for the game and makes people give stage striking more thought than just choosing whatever platforms they like most.
In Melee blast zone size is such an important aspect of matchups. Characters that excel at killing off the top like Fox really appreciate the lower ceilings of Stadium and FD, Marth and Falco like having less issue with killing at high percents on Yoshi’s and Floaties love living forever on Dreamland. It’s really lame how Ultimate can’t be said to have anything similar.
@Sunny92809 it's even more matchup specific than that and I love it. Stadium is good against floaties as fox, but against marth and falco they benefit from the flat stage more than fox does from the ceiling. At the same time fox also can take marth to dreamland cuz the platforms are too high for utilt and fsmash and marthritis is the worst on this stage. There's so many other factors when it comes to melee I can't really compare it to ult lol.
I think the issue with hazardless is the devs assumed we wanted EVERYTHING gone when some "hazards" add to a stage, especially moving platforms. It'd be a lot better if there were 2 toggles for hazards that do damage and hazards that are more neutral
I think one of the biggest reasons why the current stage list feels so stale is because there were quite a few unique hazards on stages that were cut in favour of more of the same. Stages like Warioware, Lylat Cruise and Yoshi's story and Island (Brawl) all had unique layouts and notably smaller blast zones and stages than the current ruleset. The current tage list is also often seeing both PS2 and Small Battlefield, Kalos and Cave, Smashville and Hollow Bastion. I personally think it would have been cool to see these stages especially with them featuring slopes and smaller sizes which would generally weaken projectiles and campy playstyles which are often complained about in the current meta
I’m a huge advocate for hazards on, & while I was caught off guard by Great Plateau Spring Stadium & Minecraft World, I can kinda see the vision. I’m not 100% sure if I’ll be free on Friday or not but I signed up anyway & will do what I can to try this out
Its so crazy and sad to see the smash ultimate community shoot themselves in the foot by not taking advantage of the large stage variety they have just because of a few hazards they want to avoid even tho some are extremely trivial in affecting the flow of the game in a negative way for the player and viewer. Meanwhile Melee community is having way more fun playing and watching even with all the hazards and the BS from ps1... I agree with you Smash ultimate seriously needs to update the stage ruleset and be less strict about which stages AND hazards they allow in tournaments for entertainments sake
"Something trivial" can have huge impacts on the match, I'm all for quirky and funny tournaments but I would never want that to be the main ruleset. Ultimate is cool at a top level because of the interactions between players and I wouldn't want the stage to get in the way of that. And most people who actually compete agree because whenever we do try more experimental stages, they end up not being played on. Also almost nobody likes the transformations on Stadium, people will literally not interact and wait for them to go away, they just deal with it because that's one of their only stage options. If Nintendo wasn't around every tournament would be running frozen stadium.
I LOOOOVE that the community is still trying new things. Between this and the coinbox with smash meters, I really hope that we get to see new concepts in the smash scene. Sadly last time I checked there was some kind of aggreements between TOs on like what, 6 legal stupid stages ? No slope, no wall, no moving platform, no blast zone that gives specific advantages to some characters, fox only no item ps2 ? It's not like I hate PS2, but this stage is EVERYWHERE and seeing Lylat at the UFA2024 was fucking hype to me. I really hope that the tryhards think a bit about the spectacle and not just their "SSBU DLC: no fun allowed" I won't be able to watch the tournament I think, but thank you for doing this
Yeah I have a good amount of respect for the European scene for doing things like character first counterpicking and not banning Yoshi's and Lylat. And speaking of Yoshi's and Lylat, why tf did we ban those stages just to leave a bunch of stages that feel similar to each other? PS2 is similar to Small Battlefield and Smashville is similar to Hollow Bastion, which means that if you don't want to play on either of those layouts you have to use 2 bans. I get that Yoshi's is a VERY good stage for Mario and Mii Brawler, but the answer to that is implementing character first counterpicking, not banning the stage.
I think that smash should always strike a balance between competitive, and creative and charming. Pokémon Stadium is one of my favorite stages, just because of how much it makes the player think, without being too random or obstructing player skill. It should be competitive and test skill, but always be fun to watch. If everything becomes boring, who’s going to watch it? (By the way, If you were to do another tournament, do 1HP (mods), small stage with no lower blast zone. It’s the most stressful thing when only one hit means the death of your entire tournament run, and it promotes fundies in a interesting way.)
I think this wouldn't be much of a problem if we could toggle hazards on and off on the stage selection itself, much like how you can toggle the Omega and BF variants.
I'm only a spectator when it comes to competitive Ultimate, not a player, but I agree with these proposals! I feel like a little more variety could make this more interesting for viewers like me!
Hazards off should not have equaled platform movement. But we don't have the luxury to discuss that until the next game (not for a long time) so hazards on sounds like a good thing to try.
I actually tested it! I played on it a lot in the 3ds days but unfortunately the transformations make it really hard to see what is happening with all of the smoke. I still enjoy the stage and think it could maybe work in doubles but there was a little too much going on.
@@TuesdayTastic Yeah, that's true. I remembered the characters getting an outline visible through the dust, but I just checked and that seems to be sadly a 3DS only feature.
@@Lira_orpheus I loved this stage on 3DS, but always thought the outlines are dumb. You can defs see through what's going on without them, but I can see why what's not a problem for me with friends won't hold up in a bracket
I like most of these stages with hazards on, but spring stadium and Minecraft are a bit too janky. It feels like the stage has too much impact on the match, but it would be fun to try out.
ive always been upset that "competitive" custom stages are always just FD or battlefield like its such a waste to always make such boring layouts when theres so much more than could be done with the concept. ive always added some kinda weird hazard to my stages just cause it gets people thinking of unique strategies and ways to use the hazards to your advantage or what character would be best
Lylat with hazards on is pretty extreme haha. We've played on it in other games but if we do have the hazards off toggle it's objectively better in that mode for competitive play.
As a melee player it is surprising that people are calling ultimate stale with so many more stages and characters. We are still only finding out certain character's potential now over 20 years later. That said I like playing on non tournament stages and would like more side events with them.
Actually, one of the things I dislike the most about the competitive scene is the axing of Omega and Battlefield forms. Apparently their rationale for banning these is "they're redundant; we already have FD and Battlefield." ok... and? Ban the most problematic ones, like maybe a couple have disorienting backgrounds (namely the DEFAULT FINAL DESTINATION) or bad visibility, and just let players pick between the rest however they want. It's like if they banned alternate character costumes outside of ditto matches...
Given that the tournament prize can only be shipped within the US, does this also mean only those within the US can attend the tournament? I'm in Ontario, Canada. If I'm allowed to enter, I doubt I'd win anyway but in the event I did, I do have a friend in the US that the controller could be sent to anyway. Or even just give the controller to whoever gets 2nd in this unlikely scenario I win if I were to enter. As for thoughts on the stages, I'm a fan of the list aside from Spring Stadium and Minecraft World. Admittedly I've barely played on the latter but the fact that it can be 6 different layouts seems a bit much. You effectively get to ban 6 stages with a single ban unless only 1 layout is allowed. I'm not sure how different the layouts are, if any give a major advantage to any particular character or type of character or not. I just know most of the stuff can be permanently destroyed aside from the semi-solid platforms. The ability to tech the walls and ceilings until everything is destroyed is...something not often seen in competitive stage lists. You already mentioned in the video how the Melee community would much rather have hazards off PS1 and while I'm not sure if an abundance of teching is why they were eventually banned, Melee also used to have Poke Floats legal where you could tech off some of the Pokemon and Brawl had Delfino Plaza legal for a time where again, some spots allowed for teching on walls. Every game is different but in general, competitive Smash stages try to limit teching to just the sides of the stage and of course the ground. As for Spring Stadium, there's the permanent ceilings, small as they are that allow for teching but there's also the spring platforms. You brought them up specifically and you find them fun and I'm sure they can be but they effectively change how your character jumps while on them while they're active. Say you knock your opponent offstage, go to the edge and then you want to short hop off to attempt an edgeguard. If the edge spring platform is active, you'll go way higher than you want to. I just find it asks players to get used to a brand new aspect of their character on only a single stage, in specific locations, under specific circumstances. It's essentially a more toned down version of PS2's wind transformation. I know PS2 isn't on the stage list but that stage also changes how your character plays effectively both with the wind transformation and the ice one. I'd be more in favour of seeing Yoshi's Island Brawl and everyone's least favourite legal stage, Lylat Cruise. Not my tournament though and I'm still down to enter if Canadians are allowed in. At the very least, letting me in would provide you more feedback with the survey.
Anyone is allowed to enter but I just don't want to pay international shipping lol. And you can short hop on the spring pads and not have it affect your jump height at all.
Hear me out.. Onett could be fun if players don’t just camp the side. But if they do camp on the side, it’s so close to the blast zone that they put themselves at risk too.
Onett is an interesting stage but I feel like it wouldn't see tournament play because a big part of competitive smash is the ledge trapping phase. Onett doesn't really have that as much which makes corner pressure a lot more difficult and awkward.
I've been saying that the community has all the tools to make the meta less boring but refuse to because of some self-righteous idea of competitive viability. We dont need to give Steve all these tools to camp. Make rulesets/stagesets that favor aggression.
part of it is that the game has been around this way for so long that changing the ruleset this drastically would be unfair to top players. So it probably won’t happen
@@the0therethan unfair? that...... how did they GET to the top? by being the best. how do you BE the best? by making the best strategy. how do you GET the BEST strategy? learn. adapt. practice. innovate. how is the changing of the rules unfair to the TOP players? they are ALREADY the best. different rules? whatever, just adjust a few tactics here and there. still the best, still top. only the stubborn will whine.
@@ehhorve857 it’s unfair because they are the best at this current version of the game. Small tweaks yea they can adjust but a drastic change like changing all/most of the stage list disregards lots of the time they’re putting in. Being at the top level is a lot of work and uprooting that much of the foundation 6(?) years into the game would be a really bad idea. Also keep in mind the ‘politics’ of changing a ruleset. There already isn’t a standard set of stages with some tournaments using or not using certain counterpicks, also timer rules may differ between tournaments. If a new ruleset is constructed, how many majors are actually going to use it? They’re not going to all change at once because that’s never happened in the smash community, think brawl MK or s4 bayo bans or even the steve or hero ban debates. so even though I wish the stage list was better it isn’t just “adapt and learn” because top players have been playing this version of the game for so long and for many their livelihood depends on their results. If you want to see this much change this bad then maybe go and actually win some tournaments and use that to advocate for the rule change.
Definitely interested in an experimental test tournament like this, even if some stages like this are discovered to be obviously not suitable for competitive, it’s still knowledge and we can say it was tested.
This hits me a little like the idea for a 5/6 minute timer in melee. It would aid with viewing experience, and could potentially shake up the meta in positive ways, but the powers that be are almost certainly never going to try it out.
Worried people will just defy this by choosing only the "safest" stages for their picks, avoiding those with the most influential hazards. As in, favoring least influential, rather than most advantageous or even more fun. Still, it's a neat concept!
I tested it in one of my previous tournaments and I was so disappointed to find out that hazards off turns off all of the cool platforming and just makes it a boring FD variant.
I dunno man, every time I look at Competitive smash, it just feels like we're taking smash and removing all the fun stuff. I'm not even saying this as an outside voice. I played smash competitively for like 2 years before moving to the wider FGC. And honestly looking back made it all sort of click to me why I left
I respect competitive smash for what it's trying to do but I am of the opinion that it's gone too far in some places and I'm trying to bring back that fun with all of these side brackets I've been hosting.
In my personal opinion I think that stages with moving platforms should be allowed, as it's something that players can utilize for movement and combo options. However, I don't like stages like that one with that blowing tree. Unlike a platform, it prohibits movement, not encourages it. I also don't like Min Mins or Steve's stages. I just don't like that weird ceiling as well as the launch pad. It appears more annoying than anything. Same with those blocks. Nice vid tho.
The biggest gripe I have with Ultimate is how boring the stagelist is. This sounds like fun, shame I have work when it starts. Will def tune into a stream when I can if there is one tho!
i feel this way about every smash game with played competitively, melee, brawl, p+, 4, ultimate, etc. i understand banning stuff like rainbow ride which is just inherently dumb and campy, but 99% of hazard-related stages are just exciting even if they're a little silly sometimes.
well fountain of dreams's situation was independant from hazards off. it was laggy, so smash released an update that made the reflections lower detailed. if anything fountain of dreams is better WITH hazards on since it goes from a battlefield clone to like, a battlefield clone that can move its own platforms i hate battlefield's platform sizes, dreamland should just replace it 8:29 cool trans-ition! (get it? trans-ition? because wario's alt?) 9:37 what on earth are you going on about? you hate min min more than sephiroth? you respect byleth's inclusion more than min min's? you find kazuya and steve more tolerable than min min? i get that that's a lot of different angles, but you're saying EVERYONE'S least favourite. Min Min is decently cool and very unique. She's like, the least annoying FGC character in the game.
I don’t care about hazards on or off. Call me a try hard but I really don’t mind a lack of variety. My issue is PS2. Everyone complains they get camped and then they willingly play on the widest legal stage for all 5 games. I don’t understand the PS2 obsession
I'm not a competitive Smash player (hell, I'm not even a *casual* Smash player), but I never understood why competitive players were so insistent on playing on flat, basically static stages with zero items at all times. This isn't just a Smash issue, or even a fighting games issue, really. I get some items or stages being banned or restricted, but, to me, it seems like it would be a much greater showing of skill if people couldn't rely solely on whether their character was "better" than their opponents, and had to be able to adapt to unfavorable situations or play around awkward stage layouts. Adaptability is far more impressive in my eyes than pure mechanical skill. How many characters are artificially buffed by having nothing they need to think about beyond their opponent, and how many are shafted by being unable to use their moveset to its fullest? That doesn't sound interesting or entertaining at all.
As much as I love MC World, the glaring issue I see with it is that Steve gets his context mining when running hazzards on (Mining on Iron gets you iron more often for example). I would think in theory this gives even an edge in farming what he wants but its also obvious if hes trying to get something specifically. I'm curious to know if these factotrs balance out nicely or tilt the balance too much.
2:39 interesting thing about northern cave, I’m pretty sure the reason it and the other ff7 stage aren’t viable is because they can’t play the music on stream not because of redundancy
Here’s hoping that even if your tournament doesn’t change the foundation of the competitive scene overnight, that you are able to make this kind of “hazards on” ruleset a recurring event. Consistency is the best way to gather data and change minds. And to do that individuals have to create spaces for a “new” normal to exist. Even if stages and the format have to change, this kind of tournament can be replicated, iterated, and experimented upon by others. Ideally, reaching enough influential members of the community interested enough to inspire change from within. Even if Smash 6 is made, and has features to better filter out the hazards people don’t want, this conversation needs to happen. A willingness to embrace more of the inherent chaotic fun of Smash is capable of existing at a competitive level.
I actually did this as part of my "Smash as Sakurai Intended" tournament. 1st stage was random and then you could counterpick to any stage in the game haha. It wasn't meant to be a balanced ruleset.
i haven't played ultimate since a little after sora was added but i've been getting back into content about it and this video has definitely been one of my favorites i've seen in the past couple of days! i heard you say you plan on making a video about the tournament (what i assume to be highlights or a summary of the bracket), but will there be a livestream i can watch of the games that are happening? if so, where can i find the stream? thanks in advance and keep making dope content man :D
i think duckhunts stage is pretty interesting especially considering camping on the tree is not as problematic anymore as being on platforms has been heavily nerfed
Jumping is stronger in this game too. I don't think it's enough to prevent people from camping Little Mac all over again but it is a stage I considered.
Very interested in something like this, I've always been an advocate for hazards on so I'd love to see how this turns out. Would've joined the tournament, but i work on Friday, so thats a shame, if only it was on saturday or somethin 😭 I like the ruleset for the most part, but Spring Stadium, Minecraft and Plateau, to me, are just awful with no real competitive value. Waaaaay too gimmicky. Otherwise, i think this is pretty neat and hope the tournament itself goes well 👏
There are 3 bans so you can at least get rid of those stages haha. I know they are the most controversial choices in the ruleset but at the very least I think Great Plateau Tower has some merit to it.
Honestly I think another end to this argument you may want to test out with another tournament after this one is "what if we kept hazards off but were less strict?" Like why are we still banning stages like hazards off Halberd and Skyloft like Brawl Meta Knight's gonna show up mid tournament and mug you? Why wasn't hazards off Wario Ware just moved to counter pick so characters who struggle to kill can default to it against tankier characters? Same goes for other stages with seemingly innoffensive layouts like Reset Bomb Factory.
This was actually the first tournament I ever ran! I called the tournament "It has an argument" and included stages such as Skyloft and Warioware! I have two videos about it on my channel, one showcasing the idea, and another featuring the tournament itself. It should be part of the same playlist this video is in.
A really good argument. I'm not really into the competitive Ultimate scene but given that a lot of the DLC stages do fulfil the purposes of other hazards off stages, this is definitely something I think should at least be tested. Not sure about Great Plateau Tower, since the issue is the breakable towerhead, while it's active, can be easily exploited for combos in neutral. In my own personal rulesets, I've always allowed Pilotwings (albeit with hazards off). I know it's banned because of camping/tilting but personally I've found those issues to be minor, and things you can play around if you know the stage. So I vote testing Pilotwings.
There's going to be a wide range of players I'd say. It'll be luck of the draw as to who you'll end up fighting but I could potentially throw together a redemption bracket so everyone has more chances to play!
I am in full agreement in changing the stages and this ruleset looks pretty cool (Dreamland is amazing imo). That said, as a die-hard WarioWare lover, I struggled to go with hazards off. Also love Yoshi's island (brawl), and would like that on both hazards on or off
I think the issue here is being misunderstood, the problem isn't the stage toggle, it's the stage list. Also that Coney clip was taken way out of context as his proposed solution was to unban perfectly fine stages like Lylat, Warioware etc. I see where you're coming from, but stages aren't just banned and hazards aren't just turned off because the scene just doesn't want to play them. They're turned off from years upon years of trial and error from players with more experience in the scene than any of us here. Sorry for the rant but I find this video to be very polarising. (no offense, after all this is just my opinion.)
As someone who's been around the competitive Smash scene since 2012 I've never seen the "years and years" of testing you describe. I'm not saying there hasn't been, I just haven't seen it myself.
I used the Coney clip to express the idea that the community feels as if competitive Ultimate is stale. And I've been playing since Smash 4. I outlined all the reasons why we used Hazards Off at the beginning of the video but to summarize stages like Smashville were never a problem. Hazards Off getting rid of moving platforms is a downside with the toggle and we have tried a split ruleset such as with the Gimvitational with little to no success. Hazards On rulesets weren't viable at the release of Ultimate but that's changed with the patch cycle.
@@TuesdayTastic I understand your perspective now, mb if it sounded like I was being an asshole. tbh I think having smashville with a moving platform would be a net benefit to the scene, honestly it probably just comes down to people not wanting hazards on for stages like PS2, and having to switch to hazards on mid set would be a bit much just for a moving platform. (as a side note I was in a really bad mood when I wrote the original reply so sorry for the unwanted annoyance.)
I didn't look through the vods as thoroughly as I usually do sorry :(. I was scrolling through the clips channel on the discord and didn't see anything.
Practicing up for the tournament (trying not to go 0-2) but still unsure if I can attend due to poor connection... Now that I write this up, perhaps in my best interest to just spectate... Awwww. Still, rooting for the success of this tournament and hoping it becomes a monthly to collect more data. Convincing a tournament organizer to go through with this... I get there's finances at stake but I really hope some are watching. I also appreciate you testing out the timer with time outs in mind. I don't mind time outs and I think some are a lot of fun. I recall Tea versus Acola at "スマブラSP】たまスマ極冠 #2 " (I believe it's faux pas to post links), that was a super super hype set where Tea established from the first second he's gonna camp him out.
Unfortunate to hear but would love to have you as a spectator! Idk if I'll host this as a monthly though it's a lot of work and I like experimenting with the ruleset.
