We Were Wrong.. MFJJ x Tim Connor (ep 74) 

Chris should address the controversy directly.

I still see people defending Chris’s choice to use inadequate gear. It’s not a secret that he doesn’t like the heavy arrow crowd. He was determined to “show” them he could get it done with his light arrow set up AND an expandable. Thank goodness his PH put his foot down, not that the outcome was any better. Be a man, admit your stunt backfired, and pray the community (Australian bowhunters excluded) forgives you.

I was one of the critical ones on your favorite forum AT. LOL! Only because you hadn’t seen the video and got a few things crossed up. However, no one is perfect and I respect someone who steps up and admits it. So good on ya for clarifying. I think that says a lot about someone’s character.

The 1st shot should not have been taken. But Chris needing to prove that a super light arrow setup will take down big game is a problem. His unwillingness to shoot an arrow optimized for the animal being hunted is the issue.

Just to ad my two cents worth in regards to bow hunting in South Australia and I do Live here in Australia. While the South Australian government has banned bow hunting they still allow baiting which is reprehensible, not only does it kill the target species it kills every other animal that feeds off the carcass of the poisoned animal. They commission shooters to go in and gun down deer from helicopters, not just killing the animal but wounding them and leaving them to die in pain. How is this humane? It’s typical of the over reach by the do-gooders in the Australian government. They should adopt the American system.

By learn do you mean better editing??? Or use the right equipment for the game being hunted? Using a 450gn arrow for large dangerous game is irresponsible. The information is out there.

I watched someone bury a heavy arrow tipped with a 200 grain Iron Will single bevel broadhead into an Australian water buffalo recently on RU-vid. It was a very good front shoulder shot, and his arrow did not reach the other side. It was, however, buried deep & the bull went down. He was shooting 72 pounds (not sure on the draw length). Dr. Ed Ashby has done the research on 1,000s of animals. Light arrow guys are mostly all talk. A water buffalo set up may not be necessary for whitetails. Then again, too much is always better than not enough!

Just to clarify, the first buffalo was shot frontal and not recovered. Second buffalo was shot four times before expiring. Chris Bee decided to use a 450 grain arrow and was hoping to use a mechanical broadhead but luckily the guide shut that down. Unfortunately he allowed him to use the light arrow still which got terrible penetration on almost every shot. Australian parliament has since used the video to help ban bow hunting in Southern Australia.

It's not on the edge of losing its rights. They banned bow hunting and utilized the entire chris bee video to demonstrate how unethical bow hunting is. Prior to the video, there was still a chance Parliament would not pass it, but chris's video sealed south australia's bow hunters fate. That's not anecdotal, that is exactly what happened in the past week or so. I believe the ban goes into effect december first.

John Lusky took a buffalo with an Elite compound bow at 72 #‘s , but he was smart enough to use a 700+ grain arrow. Shot like 100 & something FPS

Thanks for the apology. Shows the humility and positive that I always enjoyed from you guys.

Not all hunts videoed need to make it to the internet. I killed an elk on video 2 weeks ago, double lung and went 20,, but,, the video angle suggests too much brush in the way so I’m not willing to put it out there for scrutiny. “Sponsored” hunters feel the pressure to provide footage and it’s really unfortunate

Boy that was rough. Josh couldn’t look the camera in the eye as he admitted he was wrong. Great Video!

Man all these guys in the comments bashing Chris and all you guys probably made bad shots too so quit acting like you guys never ever made a bad shot in your life… Tim and mfjj thanks for the content love the podcasts

People already didn't like Chris couse he promotes flagship expensive products that the average hunter can't buy, and then he takes that crappy shot with a light arrow... recipe for disaster really

The anti-hunters will always weaponize the content to take away our hunting privileges. We need to keep that in mind when we share our culture. i watched the Chris Bee video and it was a learning experience for me. We need to keep this in mind when we comment or make public opinions. Dont sensor yourself but know that it will be weaponized against all of us...

Let's get Steven from Archery Supply on the Pod Cast!

The Ranch Fairy interviews with Ed Ashby have great information. It would be great if MFJJ, Ranch, and Ashby can work together to add more data to Ashby's testing. Ashby's testing and additional information is important to one's bow hunting rights. Also, if you haven't seen it, I encourage you to watch the second interview with Ashby. Ashby talks about what is happening in Australia, the Chris Bee situation, and adds more clarity to his test findings.

My man is eating up those shorts 😂. Love y’all’s content!

In terms of slower bullets penetrating more--some 150 grain bullets are engineered to expand more at higher velocity, and some at lower velocity. If you take a bullet designed to expand at a lower velocity and push it faster, it will deform and dump energy into soft targets faster. It will be on par with an arrow breaking or bending and not penetrating adequately from a faster bow.

Southern Australia is not on the verge of losing bowhunting rights. They have lost bowhunting rights as of 12/01/2024 and Chris Bee's video was the final nail in the coffin. For someone who has claimed to read the Ashby's studies and then take a shot like that with 440 grain arrow, yeah, it was a poor decision.

Not on the edge. They lost the bowhunting rights and the video was used in Australian parliament. Australian bowhunter just went on the hunt quietly podcast and talked about it.

I think the issue you are having with the heavy arrow discussion comes down to the difference between kinetic energy and momentum, they are not the same thing and the formulae for calculating them is different. Kinetic energy (.5*mass*velocity^2) is much more dependent on velocity than momentum (mass*velocity), but it is momentum that matters more when you hit something harder because it is what allows the edge to bite instead of glancing off. This is also why the sharpness of the broadhead is so much more important than the weight of the arrow because a dull broadhead will not bite nearly as easily, and a broadhead that doesn't bite doesn't split bone.

Way to go guys ..really glad you guys man up on thid one but imbwith you chris has took a real beating for this ..we all make and have made mistakes its definitely time to lay off him as long as he learned something from it

So I'm 53 and I've been bow hunting for about 30 years now. I love bow hunting , I love shooting my bow. Since I was a kid , bow hunting, even bows and arrows were looked down on by the general public. They dont see things the way we do. Why? Because we do it and they dont. To them its barbaric. To us it is life. There are reasons that arrow weights are suggested for dangerous game. There is a massive amount of disrespect thrown at people, who have been there and done it. You cant beat time proven results. It wasnt that long ago you couldnt bow hunt in Africa. Its now being shot down in Australia. Eithics matter! When i started bow hunting speed of arrows sold bows. Many guys dont get that aluminum arrows were heavy and bows shot much slower. Just because a bow shoots faster now doesnt mean a light arrow is going to do the job. I've wounded animals, and it wasnt what i wanted to do. I kept searching for the answer. I thought i had it down. I shot a bunch of deer with 400 spine light arrows. Then it happened again. My point is i started looking at the arrow, not the bow. Every animal can be killed with an arrow put in the right place , but is it about selling arrows or killing your quarry? Hunting in general isunder attack and until this industry starts to work together and come to a common ground and stop arguing and actually working for a common goal , we are going to lose it here as well. Its a privilege we have here in the states, it is not allowed in much of Europe.

Am I the only one who thinks you should build your gear around what you plan to hunt? Chasing deer? 60lb and 400gr Chasing elk ? 70lb and 450gr Chasing Australian buff? 70lb-80lb and 550gr+ Give or take

Ashby IS talking about worst case scenario. He isn’t justifying bad shot choices. With that said, I thought all of Chris bees shots on the water buffalo were bad. This includes the harvested animal.

Experience is what you get ... right after you need it!!

In Troy’s defense they do hunt a lot of hogs at night where your aim might not be great but I don’t hunt at night so I use lighter arrows.

Even if you're using an 800 grain arrow, a quartering too shot isn't gonna work on a water buffalo.

Thank you for that answer mfj. I was one of the ones that asked that question

This is like a lynch mob on here. When you're a good looking young guy, personable, a great shot, living the dream in Iowa, have a cute GF who hunts, and probably making some real dough in the industry I guess you've got a target on your back. Ironically, all the holier than thou handwringing on here re Bee's hunt is what the anti hunting crowd will use against us. That said, I agree there's plenty of criticism to level: the dingo kill if it is in fact protected, wanting to use a Deadmeat on the buffalo - and, of course, the buffalo frontal shot was wrong - and really wrong when you're in his position - both for himself personally and for hunting generally. However, if your case is simply for heavier arrow setups (not fixed two bladed heads because that's what he used), the second buffalo Bee killed shouldn't be exhibit 1 in your argument. His most well placed shot was his first, which by all accounts appears to have hit vitals, buried up to the fletching while the buffalo was standing. There was another shot he took also buried deep while the buffalo was standing. For those two shots if his fixed two bladed broadhead had been attached to a whaling harpoon or a blow gun doesn't really matter, does it? We regularly see heavy poundage compound bows and heavy arrow setups killing cape buffalo with 1/2 or 2/3 arrow penetration. I agree with MFJJ; there's a place for both setups and those in between. The rest of his shots were certainly not as deep but as MFJJ notes you should keep putting arrows in the animal. And he could do that because of his setup and the fact he's a great shot. Most would've been lucky to get one or two shots on that second buffalo.

It’s a really big move to be able to admit that you were wrong. Good episode

Good vid and discussion, but for the people calling the critics keyboard warriors or cry babies: We’re all a community and our community is under constant attack. So when one of our own does something wrong and then tries to ignore the wrong or sweep it under the rug, the rest of the community is going to hold them accountable and it’s going to be that hunter’s reputation that will take the hit. If we want hunting to survive for future generations we have to call out the wrongs. Turn it into a learning experience. But we have to and will call out the wrongs .

Chris Bee doesn't need to defend anything. He's doing his thing like a boss.

There is no world in which someone should be shooting 450 grain arrow at an animal like that. It’s not a light vs heavy argument it’s a kinetic energy argument.

Good job guys! At least you acknowledge your deficiencies. Chris needs to come forth with clarification.

The problem in my opinion is chris was willfully ignorant, he didnt just make a mistake. He did try to use the mechanical, said it himself. He went into that choosing to bullheaded because he thinks he knows everything and it bit him.

Great to hear mfjj and ranch have a good correspondence. Those ashby studies were really interesting and kind of seem to discount the whole lacknof tuning rebuttle when you hear them talk about the parellels of rigle ballistics and mass/speed. However the stress on not bleeding what little energy you have with bad tuning is just as crucial.

The hunting stories podcast you need to find it. Tim, great! There's over 117 episodes and they're all people's hunting stories buddy James's Visser from bowdesciples is on there in the low 60 i think?

Someone on Archery talk brought up a good point. If Bees video really did help to get bowhunting banned in Australia that is an entire continent that lost bow sales… he made Mathews looks pretty bad too… he is a walking billboard for them… just a really unfortunate situation all around.

The guide wouldnt let him expanding heads and told him he needs a heavy arrows. Made Chris shoot fixed heads, this is why you always listen to ppl that do it everyday. He just said I shoot 80 lbs, a faster arrows are way more important than weight. That's simply not true. To breach bone you need a big 200 gr single bevel. I bet Chris feels horrible about not doing the right thing.

Sounds like hunting is becoming a good walk spoiled. If you're running into 19 people then what are you doing? Sounds like you have to own/rent land anymore

Sounds like Chris wanted to create some hype for their 450 grain UV arrow and how it can work on anything... NOPE. Just like the military has different air platforms for different mission sets, you need different arrow setups. He needed a beefier arrow with different components that don't exist at 4.5mm, and he also needed to be patient and wait for an appropriate shot opportunity. That was an epic fail and I can't believe it was ever posted.

The bullet only penetrates better while slower because it doesn’t expand as much or break up so it doesn’t transfer the energy into a deer. Completely different situations. A bullet intended to expand at 30-30 velocities shot out of a 300 RUM is going to shatter on a rib. But out of the 30-30 it’ll penetrate more. A rifles energy is much more based off of speed then it is weight. Unlike with a bow.

8:58 It SHOULD be tough for him to hear as he indirectly contributed to the people of South Australia losing their right to bowhunt. And he has yet to address his part in that. Again, neither of you watched the whole video. The first shot wasn’t just quartering; it was dead nuts frontal. Your buddy at the company said quartering because it sounds better than he absolutely made a shit call on taking that shot and then posted it to the world.

I commend you got for admitting fault, however it does come off as an excuse to repeatedly say “we were only commenting on what we thought from memory “ it should be stated you shouldn’t comment on things like this, especially using terminology like “just shut up” if you don’t even have all the facts. It’s irresponsible

It's a good thing Dr. Ashby did a study on all of this stuff so bowhunting could happen in Africa

I just started watching Chris Bee less than a year ago. It didn't take long after watching his videos that I knew one day this was going to happen and I decided not to keep watching his channel. And what is bad is that other great target/competition archers make terrible shots on animals and say it was a great shot, when they were just lucky they killed and found the animal. I watched one channel, I don't remember which one, where the guy shot a deer and hit the deer in front of the hind quarters and just below the spine, he was lucky enough that he cut the artery and the deer went down quick. He then proceeded to claim he made a perfect shot, when in all reality he got a lucky hit. I didn't watch any more videos from that channel after that. What is going to help kill the sport more, is the drone deer recovery videos. If you watch enough of them you see how many bad shots there are in just a small portion of the country, made by people that have no business hunting.

Although we should support one another as hunters, it's also appropriate for us to referee ourselves. If something seems unethical to us as hunters, imagine how it looks to the anti-hunting community. We should never lose sight of that. I am not going to slam Chris Bee, but I also don't take his advice as gospel. Sometimes, I see him pushing expensive archery products & not much more. Only Jesus could walk on water. I'm far from perfect myself!

For the slower bullet penetrating further than a faster bullet, this is likely more so due to the bullet transferring energy more efficiently at certain velocity. Ie at certain velocities 223 or 5.56 will tumble and break up when going through soft tissue, transferring the energy to the target and not penetrating as far as it would if it hit the soft tissue at a velocity slower than the threshold for the tumbling, etc. You can also see this with hollowpoint bullets which are designed to expand in soft tissue at certain velocities to transfer the most energy into the target. If that hollowpoint bullet hits the soft tissue at a velocity slower than the needed threshold to open up the hollowpoint, then it will behave more like a standard fmj round which dumps less energy but penetrates further through soft tissue. Not super relevant to arrows, though

Thanks to Chris Bee his vid was used to kill bowhunting in s Australia. Thanks Chris.

It was a G5 monatech

hit the like if you want the guys to get bee on the podcast

Thanks fellas, keep the good work and info !!!

there is such little time to target difference that it dont even matter lol and sry im not an entry level bow hunter and tune and do all my stuff and all my buddies and a little side work doing it as well. I have a "pro shop" in my house and I follow troy, since moving to a way better arrow setup I have not lost a single animal and got all pass throughs even hitting heavy bone cause you know animals move..I shoot 3D in the off season shoot my bow every single day unless life says not today but most days I shoot 100-150 arrows a day

Great pod guys 👍

There is a reason people recommend 600+ grains and a high quality 2 blade coc heads for buffalo. This anti-physics, anti-Ashby crap with a certain crowd has to stop. Ashby has put thousands of arrows into water and cape buffalo. His research got bow hunting them legalized. Now we have dipshits today that think his work is bull shit and are willing to risk people's ability to hunt them with archery gear due to their ego. I partially blame Dudley and that Joel Maxfield and their bullshit theories. Joel Maxfield thinks shooting plastic squares proves something. It is absolutely ridiculous. Chris B let peer pressure send him out there with a light arrow and cheap montec.

the world can thank chris bee for getting bow hunting banned in australia

Calling out errors is one thing, bashing people is another thing. If you hunt you will have to make split second decisions; sometimes the wrong decision is made. Yes, learn from the mistakes; But, I personally don’t think we should be so critical against other hunters. To me it shows a lacking of self awareness that during any hunt something could go wrong.

Shit happens!!!!!!!

Hey Josh and Tim i am in the market for new arrows, i am trying to find a good quality 4mm arrow with 250 spine that isnt crazy heavy any recommendations?

Bee With a product launch of a arrow which your sligan for it is 1 shot 1 kill it seemed like a odd vid to drop to me at the time. I didn't have a issue when i first watched the vid but i do think you have to take into account what the general public see and that wasn't the best look. Id like to know who decided the video should be removed im guessing it was sponsor related otherwise it wouldn't of come out in the first place.

Wow mfjj saying he was wrong holy that must have hurt the EGO lol 😂 what a joke

Both of you gentlemen are class acts. The ability to admit a mistake is a strength and demonstrates a high degree of confidence in yourself. Its too bad this situation arose in the first place but you each handled it exceedingly well - supporting your friend, while still disapproving questionable decisions. I'm on board with this form of thoughtful content.

Ahhha what is this new product?

Get Chris on the pod

Maybe chris is taking the hero's path. We don't like when the hero can't do anything wrong (aka Captain Marvel). And great character that we bond with are the ones that make mistakes, get beat down, their world falls apart... and then they get back up, work hard, and just keep moving forward....

More call ins

A lot of it is also things with people here that aren’t even involved that have nuance about the situation

You asked so I'll answer. Chris be gets criticized allot for dropping his bow arm every shot. Not sure why because he shoots better than 90 percent of the rest of us.

Chris is getting beat up so much for this what it’s going to do is make many hunters think and take an ethical shot. It may look bad to the outside community of archery, but to those of us in archeryit can only have a positive effect.

1st comment baby!!! Keep at it boisssss!!!! Love the content. Just need tim with a mathews in his hand and it will be perfect

Bow hunting is more of a GOD given right than the 2nd amendment and I’m 2nd amendment until I die !!

I don’t quit understand Ashby theology. Bowmar is shooting a 90lb bow 625 grain at 291 fps. That would penetrate any bone I would think.

Appropriate arrows for the appropriate situation. Fairy doesn’t acknowledge that. His philosophy is being applied to every situation. Including not recommending shots past 40 yards. As far as 650 grains goes and the value of mass over velocity, I believe what he’s saying is the velocity drastically declines when it hits the animal. So your momentum on impact is going to be drastically different than momentum when it leaves the bow. BUT if you don’t hit the shoulder joint, which you shouldn’t be aiming for, the whole argument is irrelevant for MOST North American game.

Pretty sure it was a montec fixed and the arrow was way too light for a buffalo. Im no heavy arrow extremist, but I would never shoot at a buffalo with an arrow under 600 gns. And yes, that video was shown in a government setting to help push a bowhunting ban through... HUGE damage done to bowhunting from that video... he needs to reflect on things and never make the same mistake again... and if he does, don't show it to the world for anti hunters to use.

I don’t know, but after watching that hunt I feel like it would be like hunting a dairy cow here…but maybe that is just me.

A 450 grain arrow with adequate poundage will handle all animals in North America. Problem is Cape Buffalo are NOT in North America and a whole other beast of an animal!! They are built like tanks and have a bad ass attitude!!

Facts are stubborn things jj

Imo Tim interrupts too much 🤷‍♂️

Sour Apple GO my top two. Black Cherry Vanilla is the other. Good podcast boys.

his video was played in there session to show its not that ethical and bow hunting got banned in a certain place its not a maybe, it passed goes into effect ether in december or january. yall need to just say sry to Troy and stop crapping on heavy arrows ive seen yalls 450 grain arrow bounce off ribs more then once out of a 70 pound compund.. no one says this is the tool you need to hunt with or any of that BS you just said also drop dont matter if you range your target and know your bow and how it shoots. funny my 75 pound bow shoots a 600 grain arrow to 120 yards with clearance to spare. the next thing is animals move so no matter how good you are your good shot may turn into a shit shot and hit heavy bone hints why its better to have a plan b arrow.. dame just cant stand to not be right about something. there is way more to bow hunting then speed wonder how we did it in the 70s and 80s with those slow ass bows but we did it and did it well. the faster your arrow is going the faster it slows down when it hits the target its science

The people that seem to be criticizing are probably the same people that either don’t want hunting or aren’t very good at hunting and don’t get the opportunities and are jealous, made a bad choice sure but a lot of people would make a bad choice when the adrenaline rushing and they are excited and they’re out on an experience like that. Not excusing it, but a lot of people would’ve made that same choice putting that same situation.it’s unfortunate that people have to be dicks about people making a poor decision instead of coming alongside and giving good criticisms and being a community as a whole so that we can all protect our rights.

In regards to mass and bone breaking ability. Think about a ping pong ball and a golf ball. Both are similar in size and shape. However, if thrown is it possible for the ping pong ball to do the as much damage as the golf ball even if thrown much faster? Is it possible for the ping pong ball to break a window regardless of speed?

I live in australia and although this is seen as a bad situation. And if an animal was not recovered. Almost all of tbe animals hunting here in australia a feral pests. They pay people to cull then every year. So at the end of the day. If it died. Thats a good thing. I bet tbere are a lot of hunter with any weaponed that have or do bad shots or fail to recover and animal but it did not get seen in a video

The proponets of light arrow setups that deny the benefits of heavy penetration optimized setups are responsible for the type of hunters that wound animals and subsequently leads to this bans and prohibition of bow hunting.

I forgot everyone on youtube and social media have never made a mistake before🤣 he took a bad shot yes but probably wont do it again. Thats part of learning. People need to stop bastardizing chris bee and get a life. Like everyone saw he harvested the second one with a good shot placement with a fixed head. A expandable wouldve done the same thing. Yall sound like a bunch of anti hunters against archery

Great pod as always. Just ignore all the cry babies. Just like chris should ignore all these cry babies

If you're not publishing all your hunts don't comment on Chris Bee's page. All you two have posted was a bear hunt and some of Dan's Elk hunts.

58:02 💯

You acted like a liberal and instead of recognizing, the mistakes made you insult anyone who is a critic of Chris Bee. At least you were man enough to admit when you were wrong.