@@samholdsworth420 He meant that it was to secure it FROM the soldiers looting things. Yeah they kept their weapon and pretty much every other one they could get their hands on.
Private collections are better for preservation. Most large museums only display a small amount of their collection and often much of the stuff in the back hasn't even been cataloged so you can't know if they have something
The .455 Webley is not that powerful. The most powerful standard load is significantly less powerful than .45 ACP. ball load BTW, years ago I was in a gun shop in New Jersey where I got to handle a Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver. I remember looking at the thing and thinking, 'This could only come from the laudanum soaked brain of a Victorian era Englishman." At the time it was pretty cheap, unfortunately I didn't buy it.
@@MrSloika .45ACP is essentially the proofing load for .455. When the MkVIs got sold off as surplus, American importers shaved off the back of the cylinder so you could use .45ACP in moon clips. I mean, the thing was massively overbuilt, and each chamber has been tested to 6 tons, but do you REALLY want to subject it to 12k psi every shot? I pick up some of the brass that comes out of my newish commercial-market 1911A1 and handload .45ACP to near as I can get to the original .455 pressure for mine.
@MrSloika Yes.....BUT The .455 Webley outperformed the .45 Colt in the Thompson Lagarde tests that resulted in 45ACP being adopted. On Paper ballistics don't mean everything
@@sharonrigs7999 Indeed. The original W. Richards does seem to have closed as a result. The current incarnation started up just four years later and is still going.
Very interesting Jonathan, thank you. It would be wonderful to see you do and video on the Webley Mk.VI which has a remarkable history. Have scoured through past videos here but can’t see it here.
The Titanic accident happened in 1912. In those days gunlaw was in european countries much more liberal than now. A serious lawfull man could buy a pistol , but more paperwork, than buying a rifle or shotgun. For carring in some countries a licence was needed also in those days ( in my country Germany called Waffenschein). So i think/. assume, that in addition to the revolvers, belonging to the ships equipment, also some of the ships officers also had their private pistols on board. In case of civilians , open carry of weapons was in 1910s , even USA , Seen as unusual/ strange, but in this days there was annother ,honor' code than now. There had been laws about weapons, but in case of Noblemen or Gentlemen, authorities then often closed both eyes. The german word Kavaliersdelikt is a relict of this era.
@@keithskelhorne3993 A Night To Remember was based on the book, but also had Titanic sink without breaking up. Yes, the story added to Titanic [1997] was m e h, but then again, a layman probably wouldn't like to watch a movie about a boat, without anything to interest them besides the ship, so you could go either way, and hope for the best if you chose to not add anything to the movie.
@@jonathanferguson1211 one example is how he talks to us like we're idiots, like ofcourse its not from the damn titanic... jeez but for me it was not bad at all, i liked the video in its entirety, just some nit picking, thats all
Seems this particular example revolver has its rebound trigger spring broken since it does not returns to the double action position after depressing the trigger and lowering the hammer . nice gun , its quite a paradox that White Star had the prevention to keep guns to control the passangers and posible riots but did not had the same pevision in regards of security and life boats availability to save lives .. priorities i guess.
WSL had more lifeboats than needed at the time. The requirement was 16, WSL had 20. The idea was, ships would sink close to shore/land/other ships, for the sake of demonstrating it, lets say cargo-passenger ship S.S Alexander M. Drew struck a rock off the shore of Grimsby and is sinking, the trawlers and nearby ships would come to get the passengers, and the rest would use the lifeboats. Why 16 specifically, i don't know, but many things back then were different back then.
It's fascinating that you could find yourself on an ocean liner facing the business end of a pistol. Not much evidence of that in mass transit nowadays. (Air marshalls on US airlines excepted.)
In the UK it is not unusual to see armed police at main railway stations (Birmingham New Street in my case) and virtually guaranteed at UK international airports.
@@nickjames2370 : I believe you. My comment was only about german situation. In Germany police work at International airports and in railway system is mostly done by Federal Police. When necessary/ in addition by State Police of the german states. Officers' of Federal or State Police are armed with pistols ( in addition to police baton and Pepper Spray. Largest german railway company ( DB/ Deutsche Bahn) has also Security Guards, but usually without firearms.
I am, but I was never that much interested in revolvers-with the exception of the Webley top-breakers. I do have the MK IV, only in .38 S&W (same gun, just down-sized) and it’s a really clever design. Were it not for the inherent drawback of the weak frame (you can’t really use the construction for more powerful revolver cartridges), I’d say it’d beat the side-swing construction: auto-ejection, easier to load (even single-handed) and far easier to clean… Love it.
Very odd question, but I was interested by you saying "all of the Titanic's weapons were at the bottom of the ocean" implying that there many of them assumingly of different type. What weapons were carried on-board passenger vessels of that time, who had them, and what was their purpose- was it all security related?
@@F1ghteR41 I think they might make an exception for Leeds with the sheer weight of material in one place. I don't think you are their agent last time I checked?
@@zoiders You see, this general question is among the ones frequently adressed to them, and their answer is always along the lines I've given in my first reply, and now with additional confirmation from Jonathan. So as much as it is an interesting proposition, I wouldn't hold my breath.
@@chriscollins550 There are firing videos of weapons from the RA collection on this very channel, in fact, part of this exact series, there was one not that long ago.
Good question. If you look at the gun on the table at 1m ish, there's a 1cm space between the trigger and the back of the trigger guard. Same at around 2m10 just before Jonathan cocks the gun to show the cylinder locking lined with the barrel. After the gun is cocked, the trigger stays close to the trigger guard for the rest of the video.
@F1ghteR41 Yes from another collection. If you go to the fire Arms museum, it states all weapons owned or held by them are decommissioned. Due to uk law. They can bring in other private owners' guns and use them for show and none display use. But all the gun's they hold can not be fired. That's what I was told anyway. Don't know if it is true or not.
@@chriscollins550You are 100% wrong there fella. The Royal Armouries have specific permission to hold all types of Section 5 Firearms. Try reading up on what that means before commenting. Almost everything they own is live fire from muzzle loaders to modern machine guns.
Did some googling. In one of the forums I found it is claimed that no gun, revolver or otherwise has been found near the wreck of Titanic and taken back to the surface so far. It is a huge debris field and if there are in there they have sunk below the sand I would guess. It's difficult to dive down there and look for stuff as we have learned last year.
Genius It came from from one of the crew As the ship was sinking the captain ordered pistols to be issued At least once one was pulled and threatened to be used to stop a life boat from being mobbed
Oh in second half of 19th century private security appeared. Mostly as nightwatchmen in factories. So the shown revolver could have been simply the weapon of a Security Guard for Shipping companies buildings
Per the account from Second Officer Lightoller that Jonathan references, there were four Mk. IV Webleys onboard and Captain Smith, Chief Officer Wilde, First Officer Murdoch, and Lightoller got them out. Wilde asking Lightoller where the guns were stowed was because he was a late addition to the crew; Wilde had been brought in at the last minute, bumping Murdoch down to First Officer and Lightoller down to Second Officer, so until then Lightoller would have been First Officer and thus kept the guns. Smith, Wilde, and Murdoch all went down with the ship and Lightoller ditched his revolver after going in the water, so that likely puts all four guns on the bottom. Fifth Officer Lowe probably still had his personal Browning as he was put in charge of a lifeboat and never went in the water (if I recall, Lowe was also the officer who told the White Star chairman to "get the hell away" when he was being more hindrance than help in getting the lifeboats off). Of course, if that revolver came from Olympic, that would be just as well in my book since she got a ramming kill on a U-boat and seemed to soak up the class's total allowance of "hitting things and trucking on."
@@georgebailey98 It's a vanilla DMC-12 rather than a 'time machine' version. I've seen the screen-used 'A' car from the movie in the US as well though.
The Cunard Building, the old White Star HQ on James Street and 1 Tithebarn are all within a 1/4 mile radius, could be worth a trip across the Pennines for research. Probably won't find much at 1 Tithebarn now, it's a Costa Coffee. The Argentinian grill across from it well worth a visit though!
Your discussion on the purpose of a shipboard firearm was an essential part of this presentation and you pulled it off with taste and no unnecessary drama--despite the grim reality of it all. Well done as usual, Jonathan!
To talk more on a possible connection to titanic, the officers of the ship known to have guns were of course the four seniors issued the company revolvers, Lowe with his personal firearm, the Chief purser McElroy who is reported to have fired shots at the scene around collapsible A and I’ve seen it heavily speculated that the two masters at arms likely carried company weapons. The only two possible ways this revolver could’ve been aboard the titanic is, as mentioned, either it was taken off before departure, or if perhaps it was the revolver issued to master at arms Bailey, the only surviving warrant officer who was sent in charge of lifeboat 16. Very tenuous but technically possible.
Considering the (potential) lots of salty air it's been exposed too, and its general age, the finish actually is still in quite a good condition. What a pretty firearm!
I wonder if there's a clever way to deduce whether the loss of finish has something to do with the gun being used on high seas, so to speak, or was it the gun's later owner who handled it in such a way.
The nickel plating was likely chosen for the intended maritime usage. As long as the plating remains intact, there shouldn't be any degradation to rust. These types of security weapons generally don't see much hard use.
@@colbunkmust Not to mention the anecdote read by Jonathan mentions them being 'in grease'. Even if that's just a greasepaper wrapping and not grease on the gun itself, you've got to imagine that a gun that has been greased or wrapped like that, while being stored inside a box inside a drawer inside a closed-off cabin, is going to be exposed to no salt from the air whatsoever. Not until it actually gets taken out and used, anyway.
I went to the titanic museum in Tennessee. It was pretty cool. They had a room where it was as cold as the night it sank and had a tank of water you could stick your body in. Those people had to have frozen to death within a couple minutes.
The British Plod were using Webleys well into the seventies. My mum was a firearms officer, no she never had to pull it. They were using if my memory is working after a couple of large gins, those bloody awful .38 Mk.5s Ian did an explainer on this week. My old man and mum hated them.
Jonathan, these kinds of stories of the historical context of the weapon, even at the risk of some educated guessing, are personally so much more engaging than a deep-dive into nitty-gritty of the engineering, as interesting as that can be. Your story was truly touching. Imagining this pistol in your hand, while ushering terrified people into the few lifeboats left. Officers, crew, and passengers alike, panicked, scared, and probably doomed.
Thank you Matt, it really is very evocative isn't it. Sadly we have relatively few objects with this sort of history but we always try to bring something of the design purpose and usage side of things if we can.
Really interesting video Johnathan! Many thanks for the upload. You gave my club a talk on Mauser rifles, a few years ago at the Leeds Armouries. Your depth of knowledge on the subject was incredible. Best wishes my friend.
Love the history. It brings the human story to life. My MkVI belonged to a young Lt. who died on July 1, 1916. Following his death it went to serve in the Royal Horse Artillery. How it ever got to the US I’ll never know.
The Webley MK 4 is powerful and looks cool. Not as cool as the 6 but the 6 was 'it'! Webley made even a full auto revolver but I think it never sold much if any.
Since Jonathan didn't point one out, I assume the White Star Line didn't include serial numbers or some other way of tying a revolver to a particular ship?
A very interesting piece of history. I also found it interesting that the LSW's in the background had their bi-pods bound - a testament to the flimsy locking device maybe?
Great history to that gun. Johnathan it appears the trigger spring is broken, I have a MKIV on 7(1) and its hammer spring is broken… any idea where we could find replacement springs ?!?
Yes indeed - I got so carried away with the history on this one that I failed to mention it. Had I cocked it on camera I'd have remembered but I didn't see a need.
I still remember the old episodes that looked and sounded like they were filmed with an integrated laptop webcam and microphone and now we have crisp high definition video, multiple angles and a decent microphone on top
It don´t realy matter. if what ships it was on is lost to history. It´s the right type of wepon. if you want to illustratet what revolver they had on Titanic.
Imagine trying to arm a military force with the mishmash in the museum stores, though? What a logistics nightmare for ammunition. Particularly with some of the ones in there that would need _special, weird_ experimental or proprietary rounds.
@@3Dant Jonathan supplies the weapons, Ian and Hickock45 give strategies, Brandon Herrera also supplies weapons but the more fucked up ones, and Drobashevich supplies the ammo.
Is the trigger return spring broken, or if my memory serves the mainspring is an enormous V spring that doubles both purposes and the trigger seemed to be in the cocked single action position throughout the presentation?
@@zoiders They really weren't "serviceable". Perhaps they could have been, given enough money and time. I go into this in my book. The early guns are very light and more pleasing to the eye, but their trials results weren't great and the clearances inside that body and TMH were TIGHT compared to the big boxy XL70 series, which had way more R&D on it to get to the point that it got to in 1985 (not great). There's really no reason to think that the 'EWS' incarnation would have been any better - and it could have been even worse.
Great photo of the RMS Olympic & RMS Titanic together, you can see the original 1st class dinning room of the Olympic, in White Swan Hotel, in Alnwick, Northumberland, it has made a very impressive room.
When the officer was given the ammunition for the pistol and told “you might need it” I got a bit of a chill. I guess the severity of these men’s situation finally sunk in. (No pun intended)
Lightoller interpreted the order as woman and children only, while the other officer (can’t remember his name) went by women and children first. The capacity of the boats wasn’t known for sure, so many were lowered half full.
Would have been convenient if they engraved which ship the firearm was used on. I guess that would not exactly make sense considering they might move between ships every so often.
I always love these what is this weapon videos. It is either an oddball I will learn about or the ones I find more fascinating are cases like this. It is obviously a webley revolver, so it is a question of what this particular one has on it to bring it here. Also always love to see a shout out to c&rsenal's work on the history of firearms.
@@jacklurcher5813 I wonder, though, since it was a hospital ship--i.e., not supposed to be armed. But if the crew did have revolvers, that one might have been on board at some point.
My grandfather worked on large civil construction projects, including a couple of multi-year projects in the Canadian Maritimes, in the 1920's. He won a Webley revolver in a poker game, that was purportedly from the Titanic. The pistol passed to my uncle, upon my grandfather's death. I learned about it's existence, several years after my uncle's death, after reading his journals. Unfortunately, my no-good, grifter cousin sold all my uncle's guns without waiting for the estate to be properly settled. No chance to ever verify it's origin (I'm doubtful it actually came from the Titanic, but you never know...)
Even if it didn't come from Titanic, it could have been from another WSL ship, like the Titanic's older[and initially more famous] sister ship Olympic, or other WSL ships at the time.
I know Lightoller dropped his Webley when he wound up in the water, but I wonder if the other surviving officers like Lowe or Boxhall, whose boats weren’t capsized, might have kept theirs. That would be pretty damn cool for one of them to turn up.
In my mind, this may be more associated with the Olympic, rather than either the Titanic or the Brittanic. As that one actually survived to be decommissioned in 1935. (Edit: I did write this before watching the video fully.)
