Were Adam and Eve Historical People? 

Glad to see Gavin is staying away from controversy.

i like Gavin's attitude. if God exists, then all truth is God's truth and we should not be afraid where truth leads.

Gavin, don't feel like you need to rush these important topics. I'd gladly watch much longer videos of you addressing these issues.

"Augustine will just throw out possibilities and not try to harmonize everything he says." I can relate to that.

The earliest Christians were much more open to mystery, in accepting that we in this age are incapable of knowing it all. As Paul said, like seeing through a glass darkly.

So refreshing to see a Protestant apologist.

This channel is such a breath of fresh air

Job well done. This video does a remarkable job of canvassing the land on this question from a biblical point of view with an open mind to modern science. Can't say I've seen it put better. People are often missing what counts and what matters in this discussion, from both the YEC camp all the way to the theistic evolutionist/mythos readers.

I think this video is going to turn out to be very important. I've spent a lot of time researching this and seeking answers and perspectives on this and this video is the best I've seen in terms of succinctly covering the topic. It's one that is difficult because some of us want to seek the truth even if it's really challenging to our worldview and there is a lot of pressure on this point both from the secular world and fellow Christians to not take the topic seriously and simply blindly believe one way or the other.

Brother, no apologies for talking about your books! 📚 This is your channel, you have put your time, heart and God-given abilities into your work and that is worth mentioning! 👏🏽

As a YEC, I appreciate Dr. Ortlund's works like this. I'm still not convinced of evolution due to scientific reasons, but I accept the second oint: we need patience and humility to review attempts at harmonization.

Gavin just took almost all the thoughts that have been pin balling around my brain as I've studied this, and articulated them in one video. Outstanding work!

As always, we're appreciative of your humility, sincerity, and call to unity despite talking about traditionally divisive topics.

Really appreciate your channel Gavin. You’re a fantastic addition to RU-vid overall but especially apologetics, church history, and philosophy.

Gavin You may never hear from people that you have helped the most. You definitely will hear from people that aren't helping at all. keep up the good work.

Once again - this is phenomenal. And once again - this is a video that I would eagerly and gladly share with my fellow believers, elders, pastors, as well as non-believing friends and strangers.

As a Christian and an Anthropologist, it is so refreshing to see an Evangelical Protestant Apologist tackle this topic of faith and science with a line of reasoning other than the Bible being true and science being evil. I struggle every day to harmonize what science tells us with what Scripture tells us. The best I can do is say science shows us God's great creative intelligence. I tend to agree with Dr. William Lane Craig regarding H. heidelbergensis (700,000 to 200,000 years ago) because we know they had moved out of Africa, as we have found fossils in Germany and France, as well as other parts of Europe. In fact, the first fossil of H. heidelbergensis was found in 1907 in the Rösch sandpit north of the village of Mauer, which is near Heidelberg, Germany. As previously stated, they have found fossils in France as well, specifically Terra Amata, France. So, H. heidelbergensis would have traveled into the Near East to get to what we consider modern Europe. Here is another thing to consider regarding Adam and Eve. Supposing for a moment they are as real as you or I, how would we identify their fossils? Of course, the answer is that we can’t, and it’s unlikely that this question will ever be answered because we simply have no way to tell if the fossils we have found or will find in the future are the biblical Adam and Eve. Personally, I don’t need Adam and Eve to be real, as it were, just like I don’t need the Earth to have been created in six days or the flood of Noah to be real for the Bible to be literally theologically true and for God to be in my life. We have all manner of proof that Christ lived, died, and was resurrected, and for me, that’s really all I need. I know that’s being over-simplistic, but isn’t our faith just that simple: the life, death, and resurrection of Christ? Without that, our faith is pointless, the rest of the Bible notwithstanding.

Loved hearing that theologians in the 1600s were wrestling with the idea of "pre-adamites." Having historical context breaks through the rigorous modern binary; it gives us space to consider and explore without feeling guilt about betraying one side or another. Thanks, Dr. Ortlund.

Finished deconstructing my fundamentalist views last year, and it is difficult and humbling, but so refreshing, and Gavin has been such an encouragement. No more Young earth creationism. No more dispensational rapture theology. No more hyper-literal KJV-only view of the Scriptures

Gavin, God bless you! It was these types of videos that brought me back to faith. It fills my heart and soul to see one of my favorite online theologians tackle these issues!

I think this is SO incredibly interesting and I feel so blessed to stumble on your channel! I feel like my kids are going to want answers one day and the best we can do is be prepared to answer questions. But also, I'm just fascinated by all this! I am slowly accumulating all your books!!! 😍

This is such a wonderful treatment Dr. Ortlund, it is very much in line with where I landed on the issue after spending a year studying it to satisfy my own questions and troubles.

Thankful for the research you put into these and the clarity and gentleness you present with! I always look forward to your videos!

Congrats on 60k subs! I love these videos. Thank you for the grace and wisdom you bring to these difficult topics.

Thank you so much for this video! Really enjoying videos on this topic, and I’m sure they are helpful for many people! Your book on Augustine was great as well!

Gavin, I so appreciate the intent of your channel, to seek truth and share a discussion of that search with others. Your boldness, not to shrink from hard things, benefits me and so many others. We have to be able to have these discussions and have honest, careful and generous discussions with each other. This may be one of your best videos yet, and that is saying something. I personally found this so, so helpful. In a month’s time, I am spending several weeks teaching apologetics to high school students. My heart is for young people who will, in the years ahead, face tough questions, and it would grieve me, it would be tragic, if they did not know that they can always honestly seek the truth and that it may be different from things they have been told before, but all truth is God’s truth. You have expressed the same heart and concern for young people. So, Gavin, please keep this going. I endorse everything in this video and myself will seek to approach understanding and harmonization with humility.

Excellent way to frame this difficult issue and basically sums up exactly where I am on it. I would love for a follow up video sometime diving into each of the three models you mentioned as kind of a compare/contrast. I find content on each view individually but not a lot of content comparing the evidence for and against each view.

By far the best video I’ve seen on the topic

I really appreciate all the work you put into this excellent video. One note: None of the three challenges you gave for "Ancient Adam" apply to Dr. Craig's proposal. They apply to the RTB model and maybe other Ancient Adam views; but not to Craig's. I just thought that should be mentioned since you specifically talk about Craig's approach right before going to the 3 potential problems. In any case, this is an excellent video, and I really appreciate what you're doing with this topic overall.

Most proponents of the recent Adam view, such as myself, would state that genesis 1 declares all humans as being made in the image of God prior to the creation of Adam. So there would be no need for a propagation of the image of God throughout humanity.

So glad you made this, Gavin! Would love to see a Part 2 sometime, maybe with some focus on late 19th/early 20th century responses from people like Bavinck and Warfield. I'd also really like to hear more about your own personal struggles and experiences with this over the years. I'm encouraged by you, and I hope that you'll be encouraged as well! Better brace for impact after this one, brother...

So good to hear someone talking sensibly about this. Isn't it wonderful that we have several feasible working theories on the table?

We have got to the section where Augustine asks a question about whether Adam was created as a grown man or a baby - seems to me a strange question. He is referred to as a man ( not a child ) who needs a helpmate and God creates a wife for him and commands them to populate the world. So how could that be if he had a mother already who obviously had a husband and were populating the world?.. THINK IT WAS Calvin who said do not go beyond what Scripture says - all we do is create chaos in our minds and get ourselves into knots.

Great and balanced overview. I'll be sending it to anybody (lots of people) that still gets shocked about even considering anything different from the most literal reading of the text possible.

What a fantastic video. Will be my go-to in helping others sort through these kind of issues. Thank you, Gavin.

Hard topic with lots of emotions! Thankful for you walking thru it so clearly as usual

Love how you approach these topics brother! I’ve learned so much about the history of the early church, RCC, and Protestant Church from you. I’m even reading The Apology of the Church of England by John Jewel atm based on your recommendation and I’m really loving it! It’s so fascinating to me. I used to caricaturize Roman Catholics and Protestants somewhat too before I found your channel. Idk if you’ve ever watched Inspiring Philosophy channel, but he’s got a very interesting take on Genesis in his playlist, I think you’d enjoy it. Anyways thanks again and God Bless! I truly feel you’re doing the Lords work! May Gods Grace and Mercy be with you. 🙏✝️🙏👍😎

Thank you for this lecture, Dr. Ortlund. It was a great help.

appreciate this content soo much, but my mind wanders when it comes to long videos, if it's possible i'd love to see a visual summary to make it more memorable :) Thanks Gavin

Thanks for opening up this topic for discussion. I appreciate your words and ministry. It’s very hard to harmonize the story we hear from the current secular/scientific paradigm. Really hard. I don’t want to feel like I’m stretching it all to make it fit. Would enjoy hearing some more detailed proposals.

Hey Gavin, I know you get a lot of pushback on these videos. I think they're great and thought-provoking, whether I agree with you on everything or not. God Bless You, brother.

Thanks Gavin I'm always curious about this topic.

Just going to go ahead and “smash like” and comment before I have time to watch because I think this is an important question

This is something that has caused me great stress over the years. Somehow, in all my reading I only ran across YEC, OEC & attempts to harmonize the account with evolutionary theory. I appreciate that you've brought additional views to the table - even if that creates a different type of stress, it at least creates space to learn and understand. Thanks, Gavin.

Great video brother, this whole topic needs a roundtable discussion with other scholars who are also working through this, and like Agustine are willing to be intellectually curious and follow scripture wherever it leads :)

Great job. As a former atheist who came to Christ in 2012. I have always struggled with this. I cling to Christ and The historicity of our accounts of him. His verifiable resurrection. With that said I have spent years of mental energy racking my brain on creation because I just can't unlearn evolution. When I hear folks like Ken Ham saying if you don't believe it their way you aren't saved to me I hear salvation comes from the Gospel + some additional doctrine. I am encouraged to hear Gavin basically land exactly where I land on this issue. Which is I don't know. I just know Genesis describes the human condition perfectly and Christ really was God in flesh who died to save us and was raised. How I reconcile that with the fact that we evolved is beyond me.

These kinds of discussions are so needed. There is no need to stifle thought and biblical discussion, simply because we are afraid. If all truth is God’s truth, we can be open to the biblical text and the fact that there is MUCH nuance and many things that the Bible simply is silent on. And in the words of [someone from the RESTORATION movement] said. We are silent where the Bible is silent. It’s okay to not understand or even have a clue the details about things we do not have the details on. Reading through Genesis 4 recently, I remember asking my dad when I was young if God made other people besides Adam And Eve. I think he said something along the lines of, “he could have.” It’s okay for us to have humility and say we don’t know. We don’t need to. These are just such important things to discuss, as we all have many around us who believe the Bible and science are at odds with one another. I am seriously so thankful for your work on these topics! (I first found you by your videos on Catholicism, which were also so great!)

I SO appreciate your perspectives, Gavin, and how your thinking is both wholistic and synergistic. All the while you respect others’ views and think critically about it all! BTW, how many books do you read in a year? I hear you speak about these topics and your bibliography always seems so expansive! Would love a show where you speak to how to read well; how to read critically.

Excellent video Gavin. As always, we need to explore these questions and can find the glory of God through scientific discoveries as well. But ultimately it's okay for us not to know yet. Job 38:4-7 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements-surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

I love that you're tackling these issues! And doing such a fantastic job...I think this should be required seeing for every Christian to at least understand some differences in approach to these verses.

As usual, I really enjoy and find your thoughtfulness and honesty challenging and refreshing. Patience and humility - fruits of the Spirit and love for God and one another. Keep it up, brother!

Gavin, I appreciate how careful you are being, and your desire to perform good theological triage. I am willing to hear out various different harmonization efforts and analyze them seriously. My concern is that you do not mention as a possibility, along with these other possibilities, a more literalistic (as you call it) interpretation of Gen 2-3 and a reinterpretation of scientific data. There are at least some scientists that contest some of the population genetics conclusions that you mention, so it seems like it is at least theoretically possible that the data could be understood different ways. You stress that you are unsure of the correct option, but you do not include the literalistic interpretation even simply as one of many options. Why not? It seems to me that the effect of this is to exclude that view, just as you complain that many who hold that view have excluded the views you discussed. I have certainly witnessed the kind of harsh criticism that you reference from strict literalists against anyone with a less literalistic position, but I have also seen an increasing amount of harsh criticism going the other way too. If part of the point is to have theological openness to all non-heretical views, why not include the literalistic one since (even though you disagree with it) it is clearly not heretical? Basically, my concern is that it seems like the theological openness only goes in one direction.

Great video! It should maybe be in the Creation-playlist, so it could be easier to find😊

Very refreshing to hear this kind of openness while still holding the highest view of Scripture. Thank you, Gavin, this is a heavy topic that I've been wrestling with for years. As a homeschool mom I find it hard to approach some of these questions with the science and ancient history curricula that's available- I wish there were more people who take this approach rather than 100% secular macro evolution or 100% young earth creationism. Thanks for all your hard work!

Having anxiety right now and we are only on the introduction!!!😳 But will hang in there and listen to what is being said. K

For me I love discussing this with fellow believers. Even if I disagree it's just fun and interesting to think about. Thanks for trying to be fair and acknowledging each take does have some awkward issues they have to deal with.

Thanks for this Gavin, this actually came up in a conversation i had with someone recently, and this is a very helpful balanced approach! I've found your videos to be super helpful and honestly a bit confused to hear that some of the more conservative views seem to have such controversy attached!

Yes they’re historical persons. If Jesus who is historical is called the “second Adam”, then there must be a historical first Adam.

Good stuff Gavin! At the very least we can approach this subject with more humility and love, esp. for those who stay away from Christ because of a lack of it.

I love these videos, Mr. Ortlund. This, and your video on the flood, has been very thought-provoking. Keep up the great work!

My concern is just the lack of exegetical information, the focus is just entirely in harmonizing and helping young people not fall away from the Church. I believe you when you say you don’t want the world’s applause and so on. But the problem is just the lack of exegetical consistency on the theistic evolutionist, and this can lead so easily to liberalism, it’s one leap into Genesis poem.

What a blessing Gavin is!

I appreciate these videos a lot and the effort you take at trying to present all perspectives thank you!

This video was very well put together God bless

Genuine question from a patient viewer. You brought up the potential issue of incest in Gen 4. Wouldn't that be necessary at some point in the evolutionary view as well? Another question is if there were other people around in Gen 4, were they under the federal headship of Adam when he fell? Or do they have a different standing somehow?

Coincidentally I am reading James Jordan's creation in 6 days right now. One observation he makes that causes me to chuckle is how this issue is only of concern to a very small number of people. Modern conservative evangelicals. non-Christians have no problem believing that what's laid forth is a 6-day creation and Adam and Eve being the first two people made from the earth. They understand that's what's being said and they reject it. Likewise, modern liberal christians have no problem with it. They say that the greater truth is still maintained even if the passages are understood allegorically. The historical church had no problem accepting the chapters at face value. The only people for which this is concern is modern conservative evangelicals who feel they need to somehow reconcile the Bible's straightforward narrative with 'modern science'.

Brother, thank you for the great content (as usual). Which authors and material (be it books, articles, or videos) would you recommend on potential pre-Adamic races? Probably something from John Walton, correct? Who else?

This is a great summary of the diffrent views. I default to a view like Dr. Craig's but I think you make a good point, theirs no reason to take a hard stand on these issues.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

God is using you greatly, Gavin.

Thanks, Gavin for the way that you've handled this topic. It has been a real challenge for me for the last few years, and you've given me a beneficial framework to think about this. I recently finished your book on Augustine's Doctrine of Creation, and it was so helpful and thought-provoking. I lead an inductive Bible study ministry in South Africa and would appreciate your thoughts on how to implement this in studying and leading Genesis 1-11 in an inductive method. At face value I am pressured to observe and interpret in a very literalistic way, which I in good conscience cannot do anymore. Maybe my question is more on who to present a consistent hermeneutic throughout Genesis. Any suggestions?

This was super helpful and interesting. Thankful for your humility and grace.

Thank you 🙏 This is exactly what I have been pondering and praying abt recently since I was questioned by a non believing friend abt the creation story and authenticity of these biblical stories

I have been a dedicated Christian since my early adolescence and the spirit of God and Jesus Christ has been in my life! I earned my B.S. in Physics and Chemistry with a minor in Biology at Whitworth College. I went to Whitworth College at the same time as Dr. Stephen Meyer who earned his dual B.S. in Physics and Geology and he was a year ahead of me! I went on to complete my PhD Physics coursework at Purdue University about the same time as Dr. Tour of Rice University. PhD level Christian Physics and Geologists ALL understand the Earth is quite ancient and its not SIMPLY a matter of radiometric dating, there are many, many ways to date the Earth and they all agree with an Ancient Earth. Like it or not the Earth and the Universe is ancient, but that doesn't mean God doesn't exist and it has nothing to do with the Salvation mission of Jesus Christ!! I teach at a Christian high school and the top 5 ESSENTIAL BELIEFS of the CHRISTIAN FAITH have Nothing to do with GENESIS or the AGE of the Earth!! Facts...

What makes modern people so sure that we can't express inspired truth by using metaphorical figures of speech? Some things are too difficult to express clearly and succinctly in common declarative language even today. Moreover, we must remember that those ancient peoples had barely begun to develop their historical sense, and had very few records that kept their memories from the previous centuries. Indeed, most of their "history" was legendary and carried in ballads. Just look at how their writing systems were still developing. Moses had a very archaic alephbet to write with. When we need a common story for our people to stick together and base our common identity on, the story has to be simple enough for ordinary folk to remember. Strict adherence to facts (especially facts not yet discovered) needs to take a back seat to expressing Truth clearly. Thus, Adam & Eve don't have to be singular historical original people. They are representative figures who exemplify all of our human forebears. God created all of our ancestral progenitors and designed every advance toward modern humans to reflect his image and likeness. The world is fallen as of the moment we began to try to discern what is good from what is evil. We need instead to seek God's advice, not our own opinion. The antediluvian stories with their thousand year lifespans are also metaphorical. They are true myths about early culture heroes, the abuse of technology, and idolatry leading people into corruption. God is offended by those who choose corruption, evil, and death. He doesn't want the rich and politically savvy to rule as oppressors and make helpless slaves of the poor. Nor does He want them to teach us to worship materialism, sensual lusts, or selfish disregard for those weaker than ourselves. His plans for civilization are significantly different from ours. Thus, He comes down from Heaven to take a personal interest in us and participates in history to lead us to salvation. Our endless problem of conflict, rebellion and disobedient selfishness is the same problem of sin that God has always been working on. Yet, He is choosing to have personal relationships with us because of his mercy, even to the extent that He is willing to save some of us into Heaven. We are now that close to what He is trying to achieve. Soon, we may be "redeemed" to overcome material inclinations with divine spirituality. That is our personal salvation, to be recreated into the final form He desires. For that, we need to have faith, to love Him and trust that He desires our good. The Bible and Gospels are true. When Moses uses metaphor, he is recalling the stories of the cultures around him in his milieu, and following God's inspiration to tell them so that we may understand their real meanings. The stories give us a background and orientation so that we can choose a proper perspective and framework for faith. Before Abram, history is given in a more general sense. That is all we need. After God chooses Abraham, to claim a people for his own, history gets more specific. The later the stories are, the more historical facts are retained. This culminates in the completely factual historical bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, the incarnation of God Himself. In Jesus, God is stepping directly into society to speak his own words to our ears and choose his people from those who respond in faith. Do not be surprised if all the prophecies in the Bible come true. What God really wants is a people who trust Him and share his moral sensibilities and are willing to follow his plans. We only need to follow, and learn all we can about loving each other and how the Kingdom is supposed to work.

@Gavin, it would be interesting for you and Fr. Stephen DeYoung to dialogue about the creation of man. I think there would be a lot of crossover and shared thoughts. You can listen to Fr. Stephen's commentary on Genesis at Ancient Faith Radio.

Thanks for doing this Gavin. Bless you. One question - say Adam and Eve are purely archetypal but represent every human who has ever existed. How is that view not acknowledging a historical fall? For insofar as humans fell (whenever and however that happened) Adam & Eve tell that story. I ask because, given the fact that no one historical view of Adam is without significant issues (mirroring, in my opinion, the problems YEC confonts with scientific findings) - couldnt this be another option on the table? It may be counter-intuitive to our established sensibilites, but as you say, we must have patience and humilty with such ancient texts. What do you think?

I really like this topic, ie showing how an old universe view is compatible with scripture. This makes christianity more inviting for outsiders, despite what YEC people say.

Gavin demonstrates that Intelligent AND Faithful are two incompatible characteristics. Gavin is Intelligent, and he embodies the Struggle of the Spirit, he wants to be Faithful.

I wish you could get Hugh Ross on here to talk about this subject.

I am so thankful for your channel

This was excellent, with a necessary bit of prolepsis at 51:10 to ward off some of the less dogged criticizers and mockers.

So good!

My problem with including evolution is the total gaps. When you look at the Cambrian explosion, millions of species just appear. Even if it is "guided", they all still appear ex nihilo. It is not gradual and it is not by stages.

Luke thought Adam was a real, historical man (Luke 3:38), and the very son of God. Paul thought the Genesis account that Adam existed and that sin entered the world through him was real (Rom 5). Paul also confirms the account of Genesis in 1 Cor 11, and covers how sin entered the world through one man in chapter 15. Paul confirms the serpent deceived Eve in 2 Corinthians 11-3. Paul confirms the creation order of man, then woman, in 1 Tim 2-11-14. Jesus said that God made them male and female at the beginning of creation (Mt 19-4, Mark 10-6-9). I live a simple life. When the Bible tells me something, and then confirms that thing over and over again, I stop worrying about what the world thinks about it, or how they rail against it. I simply believe it, because it's the Word of God.

Gavin, regarding the other people around when Cain got married or whom he was scared of. Both of the options (YEC) will lead you to incest likely, and Theistic evolution/OEC would lead to incest or beastiality. Could there not be an option for other created people after Adam and Eve? I know it may have theological issues, but It avoids incest and beastiality. Just curious on your thoughts.

Gavin, have you considered Dr. Michael Heiser’s view related to the image of God and how that could play into the Adam and Eve/ age of the earth discussions?

Gavin, be less worried about how people think of and respond to your content! Your tone and choice of words speak volumes to your character already. Bench 80% of the apologies and qualifications. Really helped by the video and looking forward to more 🙂

Good stuff, Gavin!

Thank you for discussing Genesis in this manner. It’s drastically needed in the body of Christ. I've talked to many people who have left the faith because of this subject. I pray that this video and your others will help those who are struggling with this topic. They have helped give me another Biblical perspective on Genesis.

We want more of this series !!!

Gavin, is a purely typological Adam not an option? It seemed like that would be an option based on the title of the video.

Great content!

Good job. Very well done🙂

A YEC reading Genesis 1-11, a dispensationalist reading Revelation, and a Roman Catholic reading the eucharistic passages all suffer from the same misapprehension. Literal is not the superlative of true.

So helpful Gavin, totally agree this is one reason our young people walk away from church, for Tom Holland he said recently in an interview it was when he brought up dinosaurs at Sunday school. We have to discuss these things and all things with our young people. Thanks so much (from Jersey Channel Islands)

DR. Ortlund: Would love a collaboration with Michael Jones on anything!!!

Thanks for this, Gavin! To me, the most impactful point was one Augustine made: If a view of a literalistic account of the first few chapters of Genesis is found to be untrue, will we then give up our belief in the Scriptures, or will we modify our beliefs to harmonize with the truth--even if that means a less literal account?

Gavin, have you read Confronting Old Testament Controversies by Temper Longman? He seems to be a relatively conservative guy theologically that argues against having to defend the historical Adam.

Great stuff Gavin. I would also add to the advice to people who completely dismiss evolution, the probability for us to evolve as we did (do some research on the mathematical side of this) is extremely rare. To me this doesn’t discount evolution but rather demonstrates God’s hand all throughout.