Were GROUP C Cars Faster Than F1 Cars? | Racing MyBusters 

80s F1 cars or Group C?

F1 engine durability: 2h Group C engine durability: 24h

What I think FIA really feared was the Group C becoming more popular than F1. They effectively killed it, which in turn killed the public's interest.

No matter what, the 80s was the most iconic decade for motor racing with not only the clean beautiful lines of the ridiculously powerful Formula 1 and Group C cars but also the even more ridiculously powerful Group B rally cars and the Paris Dakar raid rally cars!

Group C cars were faster than F1 cars on the straights, everyone knows that, they were of course going to be, especially on Le Mans spec. But at best, a Group C car could beat a midfield F1 car, because let's not forget that F1 cars in the 80's had a difference of like a million years from the fastest cars to the slowest. And even still, I'm talking about Group C cars like your Jaguars and Mercedes, not the slower ones no one remembers.

When someone is able to offer a better product than F1, there is the FIA to make it disappear

To my memory of the time, the whole "Group C faster than F1" cars thing was born out of a test in 1991, in Monza, where the Group C Mercedes lapped faster than the 1990 F1 fastest lap (in the race). I remember buying a magazine back then (Italian Autosprint) with an article about the test, but for the life of me can't find it anymore - and can't find info of that test anywhere online, so if anyone can shed some light, it would be great! That said, it's easy to see how specific the conditions were - a car in a private test (where THEORETICALLY, rules don't apply, they could lap underweight for all we know, ask Sauber what they did in their first F1 winter test in 1993...) lapping quicker than an F1 car did the year before under race conditions (where fastest laps would usually be at least 3 or 4 seconds slower than qualifying times). One interesting thing is that the track F1 and Group C were the closest in qualifying, was for some reason the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez in Mexico City (back then with a different layout than today), where pole for the two categories in 1991 was less than 3 seconds apart; The polesitting Group C car would've qualified in 16th in the F1 Grand Prix - although the races were held at very different times of the year. So in a sense yes, on selected tracks the top Group C cars were faster than some F1 cars - as long as these cars were Dallara, Ligier or Footwork and not McLaren, Williams, Ferrari, Benetton or anything else near the top end of the grid...

Compare the porsche 917 and ferrari 512 with the f1s of 1970 and 1971!

First part of the race: Haha, McLaren go brrr. Second part of the race: *AYRTON SENNA DO BRASILLLL!!!*

The new 3.5L N/A engine rule slowed down the group c cars by a lot but the last gen group cars like Peugeot 905 and Toyota TS010 had managed gaining a huge time to its turbo era by increasing the downforce with blown diffuser but even then it was all in vain because the new engine rule killed the sport, it simply too expensive and complex as it has the same spec as f1 engine and small teams simply couldn't afford it.

Well, the true reason was that the new rules of Group C benefitted teams using F1 engines, causing privateer and novice teams couldn't afford to create machines that could beat teams F1 engined cars, causing Group C and World Sportscar Championship to fall

So it definitely looked like by top speed, the Jaguar XJR-9 was faster than the F1 car (at their era). However the F1 car was able to outmanoeuvre it to beat it in the lap. Nonetheless it was still a great video!

_Thats the thing about F1 cars, they're not built to be the fastest, they're built to be the quickest around a track, and that makes a whole lot of difference._

i recently bought a jaguar xjr9 in gt7 and it reminds me of how much i loved these cars back in my early gran turismo days. ive now got a 787b as well and the next on the list is the sauber c9 then the r92cp. out of all of them the sauber is probably my favorite but theyre all absolute monsters and the hypercar regs we have now are the closest we will to see to the old group c days.

A common engine formula between F1 & WEC seams such a Fantastic Idea yet it bombed

Another great comparison......if the race was at the Daytona oval the Jag would have won

Formula 1 had been pretty dumbed down by banning streamlined bodies in the early 60s, the fan car, the 6 whelers, ground effects after '82 and reducing the power of the turbos after '87 (when Hondas were making 1000 hp in race trim). And still Formula 1 is faster.

Yeah boy! Race your busters!

man i love how the jaguar sounds, especially in project cars 2

The MP4-4 is also slowed down though... The true peak 80s f1 cars were in 1986 before they heavily restricted the Turbos.

Group C, Turbo F1, Group B Rally, pre restrictor plate NASCAR, Indy Car all made the 80s a very special time.

I love this. Thanks for sharing

Popularity of every racing discipline,not just Group C,jeopardising F1's popularity was what FIA feared about and that's what i hate about FIA.

I don't know it's right or not According to Project Cars 2, Jaguar XJR-9 LM didn't have much grip as Porsche 962 Langcheck and Sauber C9 LM that's the reason why Jag is suffer in the corner

2:39 if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver.

It’s very apparent that the group c has the advantage on straights due to better aerodynamics. But the F1 car has better corner entry and exit due to less weight and better maneuverability.

Yes* *Only on straights

I loved the Group C and IMSA GTP series in the day. What sim did you do this video in? Download of the car files?

Yeah that seems about right to me. I figured the Group C would overhaul the F1 on Maulsane straight, but that the F1 would so better with acceleration and cornering. I reckon it could be made closer with a change in gearing.

I remember when I was younger looking at their laptimes around silverstone. Very close.

Im sure that it was stated the Peugeot 905b was quick enough to qualify on the grid for f1 at the time

That silk cut jag is beautiful

The MP4/4 is itself a nerfed f1 car. It's the last of the turbo era that was only a shell of it's former self. If you don't believe me go compare the pole times. Jerez 1986 pole: 1:21.6 Jerez 1988 pole: 1:24.0 The fastest laps were closer but still the mid 80's cars were quicker. This narrative that they were nerfed to not compete with F1 falls apart when F1 was nerfed aswell. Did they nerf f1 to not compete with F0?

That Jag is capped on its top speed, it's a recorded fact they got up to +390 kph down the Mulsanne straight, and here it struggles with the 'so' maybe 370 kph capable MP4/4. Capping the Jag down to 375 kph is deffinetly an insane attempt at closing the action between the cars (just what Balestre would've wanted!). Anyway, apples to oranges.

Nowadays I think FIA might still kill it if WEC getting better and popular than F1. At least the president and F1 commissioner don't have that approach

That McLaren is f**king gorgeous

Personally, i find this kind of comparisons quite pointless, because different racing vehicles are being made to fit different, incomparable rule sets. Otherwise we would not have different motorsport disciplines. The only common denominator i see is the human being, that will drive them at absolute edge of their capabilities. So if we compare, what the actual drivers must have be able to do, in order to win, the most skilled ones are the rally drivers. This way WRC really should be a pinnacle of motorsport.

can you do this with the xjr-14?

That’s interesting

I hope this isn't the MP4/4 by ASR. ASR makes pure arcade mods that don't even pass the "crazy monkey test".

Wow nice victory senna i am braziliam to

Nice

F1 cars were built to do 1hr 30min races while Group C were built to do 6hrs or 24hrs races. Hence brakes, suspension, amount of engine cooling (affects aerodynamics), engine revs would be different.

It's surreal seeing an "Ayrton Senna" facsimile driving an F1 car on the legendary Le Man's circuit! I wonder if he ever wanted to race the 24hr...?

Nothing will corner as quick as an F1 car

Which tracks, what conditions? Le Mans? Possibly. Monaco? Probably not.

Just had a thought, would anyone else be interested in adding the Grand Prix de la Sarthe to the F1 calendar?

The Silk Cut Jaguar was one of the best looking group C cars. 😍😍

it's all about power to weight in this battle. F1 cars were barely 1200lbs then.

Question, how did the FIA slow down Group C? Also, your test is on the Le Mans circuit, which the Jag was specifically built for. How about a test around Spa or Silverstone, where both cars raced? Silverstone in 1988 for example, the pole for the F1 race was five seconds quicker than pole for the Group C race

Not 100% sure but the only time we had prototypes faster than F1 was probably like in 1970 with the 917K and i'm not even sure on downforce demanding tracks it would have been true. I'm extremely amazed seing historic track sessions involving legend cars such as Porsche 962 on places like Hockenheimring being flatout outmaoeuvered by cars such as 488GT cars.... I assume as it's probably been said multiple times, group C performed extremely well for their task : go fast for 5000 km non stop, while staying reliable with "low" fuel consumption. It was not about 1 hot lap.

I don't think the Jaguar would've accelerated that quickly from a standing start. It was designed for rolling starts only AFAIK. Edit - I've since remembered this cars epic runs runs up the Goodwood hill where it looked quick enough from a standing start. I still think it'd be a lot slower than an F1 car though.

Try it with the sauber c9 since its faster than the jag and more agile

Can you do Can am vs group c

Impressive how fast an F1 car is faster doing corners than a Gr. C car.

group C still is my fave.

F1 cars top speeds are a pure function of gearing and downforce. I am sure out and out they could easily outrun C cars in a straight line, topping 250mph

Group c was sacrificed to keep F1 alive basically! I still to this day swear on my life IMSA GT racing and Group C are the best series of racing ever!

Now run that test for 24 hours and see who comes out on top?

Racing my busters

it could be done with 50's F1 and sports cars

Why did you test them at le mans ? The track is much more suited to the group C car even if the Mclaren won

ugh -w- some of these comments i can take it anymore, half these people werent even fucking alive lmao

I suppose this isn't much of a surprise. The Group C Jag eats the McLaren alive down the Mulsanne yet the McLaren leaves the Jag in the dust through the corners. Shock horror 😂 The straight line speed of the Group C cars was awesome though. I forget where I heard about it but didn't Pegueot build a car for Le Mans just to break the speed record down the Mulsanne straight? Gotta love the 80s, man. Excess to the max!

Gow did they chance tires

Just once I would like to see a comparison where the F1 car has to race by the rules of the OTHER car. No standing start, at night (boohoo if you don't have lights) and in cold temperatures. How about F1 against a rally car on a tarmac event?

is this ac?

*HEADPHONES VOLUME WARNING*

This F1 was also drived from Ayrton Senna

even other F1 cars weren't able to beat the mp4...

Por lo que ví en rectas y aceleración final el Jaguar de Grupo C es estratósferamente superior, pero en cambio en aceleración y enlace de curvas el Maclaren de F1 es mejor.

Rally and endurance and f1 greatest sport

F1 car lighter not faster, but makes the difference,now imagine the jag shedding 100 kg , it would increase its power and maybe tip its speed at 400 km /hour plus!

When I seen what F1 became, yep it was worth it lol

💪MP4/4

Assetto Corsa or rfactor?

F1 isn’t really designed for the likes of La Sarthe. Acceleration, braking and downforce is F1. This no chicane version is obviously going to play to the top speed of the Sportscar, it was designed for this kind of track. If F1 raced at Le Mans they’d come up with a very trimmed out car variant.

I don’t think a sim is a particularly accurate way of demonstrating the differences. Too many variables from real track changes and environments

And Senna goes through

The Jaguar is not correctly SetUp

What's the point of putting one of the most notable villains of Motorsport into the thumbnail

Group C was much slower, le mans in the 80s with no chicane layout heavily favours top speed, it's like if you had an F1 car now go against a Indy car at Indianapolis it would lose despite the fact it's much faster on a circuit.

Peugeot 908 v F1

So group c is faster along motorways not race tracks

Stupid comparation that people still do. Diferent types of disciplines. Diferent weight, tyres, tune, reliability and rulesets. Even the way they do battle is very diferent. You can transform both type of cars into missile if rules allowed. Both pinnacle on their respective disciplines of racing.

If wec had 4 more races i would dump watching f1

Group C was so much better as all the shit stuff today !

it was all about bragging rights! imaginge if a manufacturer only did LeMans could brag that they built the fastest car in the world or in motorsports! F1 manufacturers who poured millions into the series would be livid! Why would they be in F1 if LeMans series could get away with that? FIA had to protect its pinnacle of Motorsports series

Group C cars were the best car series ever. Nothing today matches that era of unbridled speed and iconic designs. F1 is pure garbage for years now. You know who will win before the season starts and before every race. Loved the GT1 era as well as the Oreca era with those Vipers, McClaren F1 LM, Porsche GT 1 etc.

You should have used the 85 or 86 F1 cars...

F1 more agile group C about 25mph higher top speed

Group C cars are faster, over an endurance distance.

Adrian Millward did it ages ago mate , he's original your obviously not

comparisons, comparisons but whatever is the winner been decades since I'm not willing to watch any F1 race and that's what matters, ugly cars, ridiculous engine sound, dominance of few drivers/crews with no direct competitors, toys that you not see on the road... I've chosen WRC instead

F1 is the most boring and ugly Motorsports of all. I don't get why anyone would watch this. Whish we still had group c or more of gt.