Were The Essenes The Original Christians? Dr. Richard Carrier 

The Essenes were the ones who kept the true Judaism. That's why everything they taught matches Yeshua, because he is the Messiah.

Possibly the most interesting video posted yet. More on this topic!

Love these shorter clips. This is the clearest examination about the pre-temple-destruction sects that I've heard. I had learned from Dr. Carrier the idea that Christianity was a response to the Roman war that destroyed the temple in 70 AD after years of trying to understand the historical Jesus. Everything fell into place and I became a staunch mythesist. But I was confused as to how Paul wrote about a Jesus so early.

Notified! Can't wait for this. Boom.

Definitely an interesting subject, and it makes me even more curious about the origins of Christianity.

Derek: quick filmmaking tip: You're "crossing the axis" with your camera angles. We see the left side of each of yours and Carrier's faces. So the cross cutting is a little jarring. We should see the right side of your face so that it is clear thst you and Carrier are facing one another, allowing the viewer to feel that they are anchored in one spot and looking back and forth between the conversants.

What a fascinating subject!

Great discussion. Very enjoyable. Not long enough. Essenes, Pharisees and Sadducees aside, we can probably state with some confidence that Jehovah's Witnesses were/are not the first "Christians." Probably not Lutherans either.

Fantastic Dr Carrier. Enthusiasm Erudition and a credible narrative

Thank you for this diacussion, it gives me a lot of understanding about ancient religion and beliefs. I am gratefufor this wonderful program and the person who hosted this. I will never forget and tired to watch and recommend this to all my friendsl

We know there was a gnostic aspect until the purge in the 4th century, right? Christianity would include all sects and greeks and egyptians etc. until orthodoxy. IMO.

I never thought about the dating of the Gospels and why the Essenes don't get a mention. Such a great revelation because it again supports the idea of the Gospels being propaganda literature to establish this new religion.

Im in the supermarket and listening to Mythvision and suddenly hear Derek mention my name and question! I barely remember asking it.

This overly-brief discussion of the relation of the ‘ossim (Gk. essenoi, hence ‘Essenes’ lit. ‘Doers’ i.e. of the Torah) to the earliest Christianities fail’d to mention several key foundational points which Carrier should have known & at the very least brought up - viz. 1. The ‘Qumran Covenanters’ (which we can probably call ‘Essenoid’ at the very least) are themselves a breakaway sect of ‘the sons of Zadok’ i.e. breakaway Tzadukkim or ‘Saducees’ who unlike their counterparts in the Jerusalem temple cult (after their split c. 154 BCE) believ’d in angels (like the Pharasim did-whereas the Jerusalem Sadducees & Samaratim did not); believ’d in the Resurrection of the Dead & the Last Judgement (as did the Pharasim but which the Sadducees in Jerusalem did not); held not only Torah as ‘defiling the hands’ (i.e. holy scripture) but also held (like the Pharasim) the Prophets & the Psalms as scriptural (the Sadducees in Jerusalem & the Samaritans ONLY regarded the Torah as sacred scripture) -so the Dead Sea Scroll Essenoid group were thus far more allign’d with the Pharisees except that they regarded themselves as ‘the true sons of Zadok = true Sadducees’ -and their foundational document outlining the 22 reasons for the split with ‘the Camp at Jerusalem which is the chief of all the Camps’ and goes into minute priestly detail over such things as the ‘direction of the heave offering which the sons of the priests are performing incorrectly and are in danger of bringing down the curses upon qol Yisro’el spoken of by Moses (see 4QMMT ‘miqsat Ma’aseh haTorah’ =‘some works of the law’) 2. John the Baptist preach’d and baptis’d disciples ‘in the wilderness of Judaea’ a small very specific area about the size of San Francisco (approx 7 miles by 7 miles) which is the region of the Qumran Monastery ‘at Damasqim’ (i.e. the ancient fortress of Seccacah) where the Dead Sea Scrolls were copied & stor’d in rock caves (outside Jericho) -so someone somewhere and sometime during this ridiculously short video should have said something about…the very proximity of these two priestly movements / activities speaks to having at least some relation to each other -and since Jesus & most of his disciples were first disciples of John the Baptist (the ‘follow me’ dicta plac’d into the mouth of a Greek speaking ‘ho Iesous’ in the canonical Greek gospels were thus in the context of ‘whom shall we follow now that John is dead?’ 3. Which leads into the Greek gospel fragments from the 2nd century CE of the Gospel of Thomas logion 12 (not the late 3rd century Coptic version found in tact at Nag Hammadi in 1945) vis a vis the role of James the Just (the Daviddic blood brother of Jesus who took over the Jesus Movement by sheer authority of his bloodline even though he was not a disciple of Jesus as one of the 12-judging from his misrepresentations ref James, Carrier needs to read Acts 15 a few times more it seems…) ‘Rabbi, you tell us that the Bar Enasha (‘son of man’ see Aramaic Daniel 7:13ff) will be taken from us-when that happens, to whom shall we then follow?’ And ho Iesous said: Wherever you may be when the Bar Enasha is taken away from you, go immediately to my brother James haTzaddiq (‘the Righteous’) for whose sake and the Kingdom’s both Heaven & Earth have come into being…’ Thus contrary to what Carrier asserts, the Daviddic successor to Jesus was his own blood brother (‘James the Just’) who play’d a VERY large role in the Jerusalem Torah-abiding Messianic yahadin and all evidence points to Paul having to answer to him in terms of church hierarchy- And this is certainly not a ‘modern construction’ at all but something many early church fathers like Clement of Rome & Ignatius of Antioch seem to be all too aware … Derek - please do your channel a huge favour and Re-Ask this question again for a fuller discussion preferably with Carrier AND another reputable scholar in the field in order to clarify the situation for your lay audiences, many of whom might not know that Carrier’s position on James the Just is quite out of line with historical fact & the huge rift that existed between Nazorean Torah abiding pro circumcision ‘Jewish’ Christianities whose tiny numbers were even more greatly reduc’d after the 1st Fail’d Jewish War against Rome (66-72 CE) and the more Gentile friendly Pauline anti Circumcision AntiTorah Christianities that surviv’d the War in the Diaspora to this day…

That description of Cephas/Peter as an equal but still looked up to, sounds like the Orthodox understanding of the "primacy of Peter" aka Rome, rather than the Catholic idea of the Pope running the whole show.

Just finished this book. Recently Published. The Essene Law: The Everlasting Agreement by Dr. Shmuel Asher. A must read. Found on Amazon. Fabulous! New translation with commentaries.

Lots of esoteric teachings speaks volumes about the significant role of the essenes. But there seems to have been an inner circle of essene initiates - a sect in the sect - that prepared for the one they supernaturally KNEW were coming. John the baptist is usually considered an essene. This inner circle was not the same as ordinary essenes, some gnostics and writers suggest.

I think choosing Peter as the kernel and starting point is as arbitrary as picking any other person or place. I don't think there was a single start. Many roots produced many stems, all mixed together. More like grass than like a tree that springs from a seed. Just my impression...

The NT doesn't mention the Essenes. All we know about them are the references in Josephus. The asserted connection with Qurmran is not proved but merely speculative.

Jospehus is not the only one who mentioned the Essenes.

Dr. Carrier cracks me up when he swears.... 😆🤣

This was very informative. Carrier has great breadth of knowledge and clear presentation. Carrier contradicts himself at one point when he says "there is no james in christianity" and later clarifies that james was one of the pillars of the early cult.

Dr. McDonald's, sounds like he's trying to explain what happened to his parents car 😂

How did humanity and civilisation come to be here and why has it happened in such a small space of time and why now ?

Alvar Ellegard had important insights into the role of St. Paul and the Essenes in the founding of Christianity.

Peter was highest ranking until Jacov joined because Peter was itinerant. The top guy who stays in Jerusalem is the de facto leader. Christianity is the “rubbed one”. Literally. When was Yeshua annointed? Not clear. Who uses that term first, Paul, Galatians or first Thessalonians, take your pick. Was Paul an eye witness, no. Did he just invent Christ, yes, he appears to have invented that solid belief that there was a single powerful messiah. Again, cognitive dissonance, Richard fails to see that some division is already arising, apparent in Paul’s epistles. Paul “But I spoke privately to those recognized as leaders, for fear that I was running or had already run in vain. Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This issue arose because some false brothers had come in under false pretenses to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.” Richard”It’s too egalitarian he cannot do this” Paul. “When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned. But before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.” Obviously Richard is incorrect. Peter is deferring his authority to James to such an extent that even men sent to him from Jacov suffices for him to alter his behavior, he is withdrawing from the Gentiles. This is completely consistent with what we know, James was rising in stature as Josephus concurs, and Peter has ceded some of his authority. The question is not this has happened, it’s obvious the men are not running around staring at each other’s junk. Peter is itinerant, James is stationary. Peter has less of his reputation to worry about, Jacov is concerned that the followers, once they enter Jerusalem will be targeted and stoned. As they tried to do with Paul on his last trip. Richard is starring at tea leaves trying to see something that just isn’t there. “When I saw that they were not walking in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” Thus the question here has nothing to do with Richards ideas of whirlwinds of Jesus figures floating around. The question is why James, not a Yeshua follower agrees to come in, and why do the disciples defer authority to him. Because he is related, because he’s a better orator, or because he represents stability and because the followers feel that they have become unstable.

as an Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses, I found it funny to hear you mention JW at the outset lol I would add that while JW are certainly less interested or knowledgable about their non-JW history I wouldn't say its zero. I think that most JW would be mildly knowledgeable about their early Millerite influence.

Derek: I hope you'll ask Dr. Carrier his thoughts on the only date-stanp in the seven "authentic" Pauline epistles: 2 Corinthians 11:32-33 ...talking about Aretas King of Damascus, which places the story a century before the crucifixion. Whenever the author of Paul was writing, was he placing his story in the time of Alexander Jannaeus and Yehoshua ben Perachia?

Did the essenes have long hair?

6:54 - The Nazarenes. That was the original christianity, though they, themselves, would not have called themselves that. Modern christianity was created by Rome anyway, two to three hundred years after all these events took place. I think, that is almost, certain now. They built upon Paul's heresy, and took it further still, it seems, but it has nothing, what-so-ever, to do with that first Nazarene Sect that Yeshua Himself, seems to have founded and was eventually, destroyed as the Roman church was forming.

One thing MythVision has never addressed is the distorted and inaccurate portrayal of the Pharisees in the “New” Testament. They weren’t pettifogging legalistic hypocrites. They were deeply religious. They were mystics and scholars. They believed that saving lives, pikuach nefesh, supersedes all laws, including Sabbath observance.

I love Carrier but I think I remember him saying the gospels could be the Essens' point of view on messianism - opposing the Pharisees. But he has the right to review his position :-) Thx

Speak about the: The Essenes (/ˈɛsiːnz, ɛˈsiːnz/; Hebrew: אִסִּיִים‎, Isiyim; Greek: Ἐσσηνοί, Ἐσσαῖοι, or Ὀσσαῖοι, Essenoi, Essaioi, Ossaioi)

How did this get 20 down votes after being out like 30 minutes? The problem with Richard Carriers theory is huge. The idea of this monolithic Essence movement is a false paradigm in the same way the idea of a monolithic JtB/Yeshua movement is a false paradigm. “ Josephus and Philo discuss the Essenes in detail. Most scholars[citation needed] believe that the community at Qumran that allegedly produced the Dead Sea Scrolls was an offshoot of the Essenes. However, this theory has been disputed by some; for example, Norman Golb argues that the primary research on the Qumran documents and ruins (by Father Roland de Vaux, from the École Biblique et Archéologique de Jérusalem) lacked scientific method, and drew wrong conclusions that comfortably entered the academic canon. For Golb, the number of documents is too extensive and includes many different writing styles and calligraphies; the ruins seem to have been a fortress, used as a military base for a very long period of time-including the 1st century-so they therefore could not have been inhabited by the Essenes; and the large graveyard excavated in 1870, just 50 metres (160 ft) east of the Qumran ruins, was made of over 1200 tombs that included many women and children; Pliny clearly wrote that the Essenes who lived near the Dead Sea "had not one woman, had renounced all pleasure... and no one was born in their race". “ So if you read this you notice the contradiction between what people say the Essenes were and what they actually were, just like there is no monolithic Jesus follower, some were zealots, some were mystics, some were itinerant and some were not. Josephus and Pliney the Elders were not Essenes. The Dead Sea scrolls deposited near Qumran were works of different Hebrew schools deposited at different times, they were not a monolithic belief system.

Lol. The gospel writers were obviously fully grown men when they wrote the gospels so there is no doubt they would have been around when the Essenes were around. They are recounting the events of decades earlier.

Thanks

Cephas? But but but... Skrbina says it was a lie made up by Paul!

The dark side won a major victory in ad68 when the Romans killed off almost a million Essene souls and their teachings were lost. Stashed in the caves of Qumran. The scrolls disvovered in 1944. Pliny claimed they had existed for 1000's of ages hinting that they were a part of Forgotten Eternal race that existed outside of time. The race in the SecretBook of John. Philo also discussed the Essenes in his works. He traced their Origins to the time of Moses or Magi. Whenthe Cathars (who followed the Essene lifestyle),were being hunted down and massacred in the 13th Century, they prophesied that in 700 years they wouldbegin to incarnate again and that was when the planet would need a revival of their ways. That timeline fits exactly when our current new age took off. What we see as a new age movement is actually a very.old age and.its just a revival of a way.of peace, healing and a life balance that is actually.thousands of years. Its sad how today Christians call them just plain dumb gnostics but both Essenes and cathars got something right to be intimidated and massacred and obliterated by the Roman Cathlic church!!

It was the Way. Please. The way is Buddhism that was the star seen in the east. The Essenes were waiting for Buddha or the Child of Love. They accepted Yeshua as his return. They had no reason to exist anymore.

Peter and the 12 with the 12 being Essences? 🤯

When did the Essenes disappear? AD70. Some of their teachings carried over into Christianity. (on poverty for example) It seems to me to be likely that some of them would have converted to Christianity bringing their outlook with them. The non-mention in the NT is significant. They would have become Jewish Christians, who were known as Ebionites, the poor by the Gentile Christians. This was the group that Paul wrote about and collected money for.

The Essences were Pharisees, they were in En Gedi, not Qumran, the sons of Zadok, exiled temple priests were in Qumran.

Nowadays there is a debate going on within the hispanic-revisionist thought with leading figures such Joaquin Bochaca argentinian, I think.(Author of El mito del judaismo de Cristo, The myth of the judaism of Christ) or young people such Lucas Carena, argentinian too (Author of very recent book: Jesucristo Principe Hiperboreo, una vision teandrica de occidente y la cristiandad. Jesus Christ, Hiperborean Prince, a teandric vision of the west and christendom). Such revisionist thesis does not question Jesus Judaism by the law, instead, it questions his Judaism by his bloodline. Spiritually, Christ has the right to call himself the descendant, son of David by the genealogy of St. Joseph. This way he is able to take upon himself all of Israel, all of Judea, the semite world. In the other hand, by Gods wisdom, Jesus also took upon himself the "gentile" world (resumed by the indo-arian people's, helenistcs, Valley of Indo, Mongols, the hipotetics hiperboreans, Romans, Iberians, Saxons, Godos, Nordics and beyond) by the flesh and blood of the Virgin Mary who is the center of the revisionist thesis being herself a practicing jew but nevertheless a member of the lineage of the "esenios", a non-semite lineage that dwelled in north of Israel. In such pedagogy (jew by the spirit, gentile by the flesh, God wants to teach us that Christ the "Logos", The Incarnate Word, second person of the Trinity, is for all peoples.

Hey , Glenn … Paul wrote about Jesus early , but before that he killed many innocent people …

"Essenes" is a derogatory term coined by Titus Flavius Josephus (né Yosef ben Matityahu), a turncoat Israeli general and self-described Pharisee (Matthew 23), employed incorrectly to this day by "scholars" and "theologians" the hide the truth about the TRUE church called The Way (Gr. tēn Hodon/Heb. HaDerech). The Way is documented in Acts as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls; this "sect" was for the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentiles). The Maccabees/Hasmoneans usurped the Levitical priesthood from the sons of Zadok. The latter considered Jerusalem and the Temple to be defiled, and the founded Qumran, the voice crying out in the desert wilderness of Judaea as was prophesied. Those in Qumran were chaste priests, Levites, Israelites, and proselytes. The married men and women of The Way lived in Damascus where there remains a street called Straight to this day. Before his conversation from Pharisaism, where was Saul going - under direct orders from Caiaphas and the Great Sanhedrin - to persecute the men and women of The Way? And, now you know the rest of the story... #ShemaYisrael #HaDerechDotCom #QuestionEverything

Jesus appears to be an engineered animatronic candy machine made of copy and paste from meaningless tropes from the old testament. The 20 main passages to describe the Messiah by the Jews were never quoted. They were blinded you see. Something about pouring new wine into old wine skins. Something might happen. Jesus was a new twist on the idea that's for sure.

Hilalite Phariseeism? Is that how you spell it?

CC is talking a lot about "sex" and I think they mean "sects," but it is more fun that way. Lots of "sex" in the first century AD.

its all fascinating ~~~ How did Life begin ?

Evangelism is one of the oral sects

Richard carrier is the true follower of Jesus

Perhaps the Essenes fled to France and became the Cathars

Has this dude read any of the Dead Sea scrolls? Of course the council of nano Nicea would eradicate any reference to the Essenes because it’s EMPOWERING

Essenes were preppers

These conversations should give up the ‘Jesus’ name….a late construct….and speak more accurately about him as Yeshua.

10:12 Judas had the revelation, no? The Mar Thoma Church started around 54 AD, no? Kephus? Kiaphus? What the huh? Anyhow; mythicist nuclear blast! Damn straight!

Confusing. All over the place

My like moved it past 666 likes...

The flag of la Palma tells us that the tribulation is here... time is up Playtime is over...

The invention of the Jesus! Oh dear, them christians don't want to hear this!🤣

Hmmm

Fundy Jewish Messianists, Zealot types were pretty clearly still around long after 70. Were Sadducees still around? Why? The Temple was gone. Surprised to hear Carrier say the opposite of these. Josephus was an ethnic propagandist, downplaying the threat certain Jews posed to the occupying gentile order, misrepresenting them in ways he hoped they would find sympathetic, just as other Hellenized Jews had done among the Greeks for centuries prior. It's this kind of ancient hasbara that creates Gentle (and ultimately Gentile) Jesus out of a Jewish resistance fighter Messiah, real or imagined.

"That's what I 'suspect'. Now we can't prove any of this because all of the source information that we would need is gone." That is the Pharisean-influenced Essene provenance theory of the creation of Christianity. Now compare that to Atwill, who actually compares extant texts. I can't say that Atwill is right, but Carrier has a very loose footing to poo-poo Atwill.

Urantia

This is similar to mormons.

Nahhhhhhhhhhhh

Caiaphas

Truly this guy is clueless. Christ was not a murderous Pharisee as the Pharisees that CRAVED to murder Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the LAW PERFECTLY and didn't encourage MURDER EVER being GOD the SON. Ex 20:13 You shall NOT MURDER If he had any INTELLIGENCE he would know that >>John the Baptist

"THE ONLY" reason we get a prominent mention of the Essenes is because of Josephus?? Yea he was the ONLY HISTORIAN who even wrote about the conditions in first century Judea, no shit! Have you even read the Dead Sea Scrolls or anything by Eisenman??

Nobody cares.

these are well qualified to write for the ancient aliens shows. they are really experts on the matters of what if its possible it could be if one can imagine if we dont know but...😅😅😅 but as long as they think they are smart in their foolishness I guess one can only expect a good laugh out of these kind of experts😅 when will they learn that its imperial literature and imperial religion. stop being a puppet for the power. or at least be an aware power puppet. at least this way one could fight you. but sleeping puppets are just sad jokes✌🍻

I think that this man needs a little more humbleness.

Yes there have been many lords. Not Jesus or an angel specifically but God anoints people like he did Jesus. Thats why Jesus says in Luke "The Lord answered, 'Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions." Now, what are God's possessions? The world, right? Jesus will pass the mantel or leadership role to someone else. "The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name." Why does Jesus need a new name? He is passing the leadership role.

Yes, they were. Joseph and Mary were Essenes.

Essenes