I bet the Grigri is designed to slip around 4-8kN. I mean it's probably so if something were to happen and those forces do end up happening, a few feet of rope being taken with a constant 4kN force, could potentially save someone's life because is helps lessen the impulse of the fall essentially making it safer.
Yeah, that’s my thinking too. But let’s see how it handles the quick and heavy tensions when the drop is set up. Super excited for that. I think HowNotToHighline needs to invest in a higher frame per second slowmo cam to catch those extra juice gear gut spills.
The GriGri was designed to allow for a slow slip in the event of a fall. It's one of the main reasons we use them in rescue. I love the GriGri because it's saved my hide a few times. However, I wouldn't touch the Birdie with a barge pole. I've found them far too unpredictable and touchy to use in a rescue situation.
@@ryanhanslo3029 They do work great when doing solo work, Guiding the rope is import and, and makes the Birdie much more controllable. I can see how in a rescue situation that might be more difficult. Why not the Rescucender?
The gri gri slipping is still super good enough. That slip on a big fall will help give a soft catch and it will only see max force for a couple of seconds
I once witnessed a 140ft factor 2 fall on a Gri-Gri: Lurking Fear on El Cap, party was block leading, leader was self belaying on a gri-gri (70' out from the anchor below, at the end of his rope, just as the 2nd was arriving at the anchor), leader was aggressively back cleaning, he wasn't using daisies and fumbled out of his aiders, pulled the only piece between him and the anchor (#1 Camalot). The fall was on p5, we were on the ground about to start, pre-dawn so I saw the headlamp beam falling, I happened to be looking up. They managed to self rescue back to the ground, and walk out under their own power. Rope burns, sprains and strains, and minor kidney bleeding. They happened to live nearby, so I got the details when he came by to pick up his gear that I had cleaned from his highpoint (2 cams, 2 aiders). He said the Gri-Gri was slightly bent (I dunno exactly) and was jammed/cammed hard in the locking position onto the rope, which reportedly took some effort to un-cam and remove. He was tied into the end of the rope, not sure if/how his knot might've been pulled up against the device.
Hey Ryan, avid Beal Birdie user here. To answer your question you don't lower off the birdie like you do a grigri, using only the handle, you instead use the handle for rough control and hold on to the brake strand and meter slack out like an ATC. The Birdie has been my favorite assisted braking device for a long time, the all metal construction and ease of giving slack while lead belaying makes me recommend it over the gri gri for new buyers, glad to see it holds more than a gri gri too, more to brag about! :3
The thing is with a atc u have ur two hand on the rope not one so iam not sure with one one only you would need to let the rope slip tru ur hand risking burning yourself while the grigri you really control the speed whith your left hand on the handle ! The rigth hand is just there for safety Avid grigri user here !
I'd say you handle the Gri just like you described you would the Birdie while lowering. Petzl even made a biner especially for that purpose to increase friction and care for the skin on your hand
Yeah, it’s a little more bias toward the brake rope side vs the handle side. You CAN control with just the handle, you just need to move less to make speed changes. Love the size of the Birdie as well.
Seeing the GriGri slip before breaking makes me feel pretty safe. Slipping would probably mean that I'm not entirely snapped in half during a fall. It makes me wonder what other devices like the Madrock Safeguard would do in the same situation. Mad hype for the drop tests. I'd love to see all of this again in a dynamic situation. Plus you can get some HUGE forces on static ropes, so we can probably see some fun stuff with that tower.
They both slipped before breaking. On the larger rope, the birdie gripped better. The Grigio blew up at 9.7 KN. The birdie started to desheath the rope at 9.9. If somehow you were in a 10kn fall (other than maybe breaking your back) the Grigri drops you to the ground, the birdie desheaths your rope. Neither a “good” thing, but at the end of the fall. A desheathed rope is better than a free fall.
Great video for all rope soloists! Thanks @hownottohighline !!! Next time you want to break a grigri, I would LOVE to see what happens when you put a stopper knot on the rope. (that jams right before it enters the grigri) My guess is that the grigri might stand beyond 10 kN. But who knows!!! The drop tests will be MEGA interesting!!!! Sick!!
If you use a mirror setup to remote locate your cameras you can definitely shield the system to better isolate the carnage. They use mirrors for rocket sled and ballistic tests - good enough for missiles, super good enough for grigri's.
Neat test. I just bought my first grigri after thirty plus years with 8's, sticht plates, tubers, and ATC's. They all blow hip belaying out of the water (which is the first belay method I was taught and used). Would be interested to see how many kns a hip belay can hold for comparison, but I'm absolutely not volunteering myself for the rope burns!
Birdie doing what I thought the GriGri would do. I'm actually quite reassured by the slippage with the GriGri and I'm curious to see if you get similar results with shock-loads from the drop tower.
Hi Ryan. As a adventure guide we sometimes have to leave slings behind when abseiling. mostly in canyoning. I have seen that in Australia canyoners use old car seat belts used as slings. are they good enough. great work as ever. PS hi from Scotland
I would imagine that as long as the seat belt is in decent condition that it would be good, as the ratings I see from a quick search range from 13-25KN. It'd be cool to see though!
Im an auto mechanic and i have used seat belts to pull motors many, many times. Most of the time with the trans attached (1000 lbs+) Sometimes there isn't enough space to use chains or maybe there is no good mounting location for them and its easier to wrap a seat belt around. One day the company safety inspector saw me and expressed her concern for how strong a seat belt could be. After a quick chat and a little research, she was suddenly completely ok with what i was doing. NHTSA mandates that all vehicle seat belts need to hold a minimum of 3200 lbs. EU regulations are even higher at 4200 lbs. But like most safety equipment and minimum ratings, they actually break at a much higher weight. Most belts tested by NHTSA break around 5000 lbs. PS - i normally tie a water knot, sometimes a double 8 knot. they dont slip and are very static.
We use single-use-slings made from seat belt in construnction. Thin, strong, flat. You can built it in a wooden wall and lift it with a crane or you screw it down with a 2by4 or somecind of wood. They are certificated as a lifting sling and rated about 800kg which should be arround 1400 lbs and they cost arround 1 euro
Bro Im using this type of gear to climb my sailbost mast. I was worried about trusting my life to a Petzl grigri but you have given me much more trust in the gear. Thank You !!!
Would definitely like to see the Micro, since it is the gold standard for rope solo and simul-climb right now. The Micro is only rated at 2.5kn, I heard TC say it's good for 3kn, but don't think he tested it.
@@pavlodeshko it's not a well rated device based on testing. It's recommended to avoid the Spock for TRS. Duck is similarly poorly rated, but better design. Microtrax and CT roll n lock have both tested well with micro being more damaging ( fine teeth) vs CT handling higher loads. Everything has a failure mode/max force: spoc and duck just hit them easier
It would be fantastic to see how an Edelrid Jul 2 or Mega Jul would hold up in these similar tests. A little "apples to oranges" but it would be interesting to see where the failure point it, as there are a lot of folks using those as well. Thank you for everything you experiment with. A wealth of information is generated by you guys.
Gonna be sweet to see how the Grigri work on the drop tower. Slippage is a good thing for a dynamic belay and soft catch. Keep the vids coming. Thanks.
happy to see the Birdie making an appearance. Got one for my wife as she was learning to climb because GriGri is much more pricey, and we have been extremely happy with it. Full metal construction makes it feel very sturdy, and judging by the test scores it is! A little weird seeing it cut rope sheaths though....add it to the drop tower tests please!
Good observation on Birdie about quick switch from open close position. I'm currently testing it and I can't get lowering down consistent. Either too slow or when pulled the levar a little the speed increases rapidly
That's so cool! So interesting to see the gear I use and what they can handle. I think the pin on a DMM Pivot would be interesting to test. If you haven't done so already of course.
You could get a cheap thermal camera (about $160) to easily find hot parts on the floor. Just be quick about it before it cools down, and make sure you don't have to many hot things around. Alternatively, if you can darken the workshop, you could put a little (invisible) UV fluorescent ink on the part being tested, and a UV flashlight to find it.
that was great! looking forward for the drop tower, most of the things will happen on that way and not on slow tension, so you have a loooot of things to re test, so great!
Thanks for that this is super nice to know. I often put quite heavy loads on gri gris at work. If it's really heavy I prefer to put it on a rig but still I've had situations where I've hung 200-250kg with 10.5mm static rope on a gri gri. Knew it was pushing it though
Can't wait to see a drop test with the grigri and the birdie or a similar device like the Madrock lifeguard. I'd also be really interested to see how well it works in a solo top roping type layout with an average body weight and at what drop heights it engages or fails to engage
If I'm not mistaken, the blue soft shackle is 1/2" Samson amsteel rated to 30k lbs. Even with severe damage I'm not surprised that it broke the Birdie .💪💪
This is great, thanks so much for this test. Also, thanks for not cussing in your videos. I work in a public school and I will probably use some of your videos in my classroom, but that does require that there be no cussing.
grigri test winner for me. it does not damage the rope and is safe. its advantage is that it will softly close the rope and will not break it with the utility forces kN 👍🔥
The tension force of a rope is felt at both ends, and for an inertial body (like a falling person), presence of force implies change in velocity. 7.3 kN will bring a 200lb person falling at terminal velocity to a complete stop in 0.98 seconds, long before you lose a significant amount of rope to slippage at the pace seen here. Super good enough.
Maybe enclose the break case with a bulletproof glass type containment system that you can still record through but would catch all the pieces?🤔 Although, hunting and pecking around the shop is probably good cardio 😉great video as always! Love the channel and thanks for all you do for our ease of minds.
Ryan! Test bounce testing! I'd love to see nylon versus dyneema daisies (and maybe Petzl Evolv Adjust or other adjustables?) with daisy testing and then testing in the ladders. And then, because you don't have enough to do (hah), it'd be rad to see how strong heads can be.
I just recently took a high angle rescue course and they are made to stop to a certain dynamic force and then start slipping at a slightly higher dynamic force and than finally stop again at a higher dynamic force witch I thought was pretty cool
Instead of trying the rope to the load cell when breaking belay devices it would be more useful to just tie an overhand or a slip knot in the rope and pull the know through the device. The rope soloers tie slip knots in the rope as a fail safe assuming that the knot will jam in the device is the device fails to auto-lock in a fall.
I'd like to see how this compare to a good old fashioned bug. You could use a pulley and weight in place of the belayer's hand for constant tension pantograph style on the lock off.
As far as I am aware all belay devices will slip, because they all are brake assisting and they will not brake the rope completely, and the GriGri is one of the devices with the highest slip value also compared with other half automats, so it is actually very static in comparison with tubes or even HMS, which is why for instance in alpine multipitch climbing with belay from a fix point you should never use a GriGri. Here is a comparison of different half automatic belay devices in German with the slip values (Durchlaufwert), and other interesting stuff www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/public/919174d8-26c1-2717-9f9a-6f7479be220f/Panorama-2010-4-Geraete_18413.pdf
Ok, so we see grigri is such a well-designed device! If we put all the pieces together: When the grigri is on the belayer the rope slips around 7 KN; the climber would have created a force of around 14 KN and the anchor would have a force of around 21KN. If you think about it, the harness is designed to support at least 15KN while many anchors and bolts are prepared to support around 22KN, however there are so many variables here and those forces would be nearly impossible to achieve in a realistic rock climbing situation. Therefore, just when the whole system is about to collapse grigri would release some rope to give you a second chance. How amazing is that?
With the brake strand tied off behind the load cell, you're only measuring the force on the carabiner. Same with you holding the brake strand. The load on the climber-side rope is equal to the force on the load cell, PLUS the load on the brake strand. It's like the inverse of a pulley system. The break force was probably way higher, and the slippage with your hand on the brake strand was equal to the measured force, plus however hard you were pulling on the brake strand.
Nice one, what about using a batting cage type setup around where you stand, or even around the equipment to keep stuff from flying too far, but big enough to allow easy access and a large enough for camera equip to be moved around. Nice work!
Maybe put a screen up. Camera on one side of the screen and you stand behind it. Kinda like a blast shield so that you are safe. Everything will still go flying but you won't get hit.
I wonder if they intentionally made it slip vs grab till breaking. It seems a lot safer for some slippage to occur before catching, rather than 0 slippage if it means it breaks earlier.
GriGri slipping at some point is kinda good I think. We're talking catching humans here not hanging tanks on helicopters. Human biology has to be taken under consideration. At some point it's better to give you hard break that's gonna save some of your spine at least instead of pulling you hard enough to keep you in place with broken back. Similarly we could imagine designing jets able to withhold g-forces like missiles can but what for if not a single pilot could use them at the boundary conditions anyway.
Would to see a test with the Silent Partner and Soloist... Its gonna be sad to see one of those broken cause is rare to find but i think its a really good test.... Cheers mate... Always amazing contents...
forgget about plexi glass screen. what about wiremesh or the one used for chicken coops it can be out of focus and nearly desapear from camera, or mosquito screen. as long as its loose on the bottom it will absorb the impact of the flying pieces
You're only going to have peak force for a very short amount of time, if the gri gri slips a bit at peak force that is probably fine as long as it stops again when the force comes down, in most cases it would just make the catch softer.
you've given climbers a sweet in hand and now we are gonna grab your whole arm... Get ready for the requests about revos, microtraxions, shunts, and many more ^^ hahahah
I just watched this video and thought that you did an excellent presentation. I was hoping that I could get you to test the Mammut Smart Alpine, however a quick internet search on one site said that the Smart Alpine production has been discontinued in 2020. Should Mammut reintroduce a similar model I urge you to test it. Perhaps you might find one that you would be willing to destroy in the aftermarket.
I think it would be interesting to test if you could whip on some stuff that is absolutely not smart to whip on, like the loops on the back of climbing shoes etc
I still love your setup! I'd love to use your setup for winch test. To see some real figures not overrated ones. Lol. I would love to see you guys test a construction rope grab.
