Just here to say that, while hating on characters for your own reasons and disliking writing for your own reasons is normal, hating on an author for doing things that you dislike is far from acceptable behavior. Just because a writer wrote a character who doesn't stand up for themselves as much as you would like doesn't give you an excuse to berate them endlessly, threaten them, or insult them with phrases like 'you never should have written' or 'nobody likes your works'. Writers are people who have to put themselves in often uncomfortable situations to express things that they're passionate about. Seeing excessively negative comments on their passion projects can cause serious reluctance to ever write again, or, in the worst cases, ever put yourself out in an environment where you could be judged. - sans the skeleton, probably
Yuup and for this there's diference between hating a writer who is passionate and grounded disliking/hating one or two writers who get involved in work, which led it be ruined in a real sense and especially do have a terrible traits such as toxic personality, need to viewing their work as a something special, inspite of it being far from it and without showing it.
The only reason why any of us should EVER consume another's work is to get exposed to ideas or methods of execution that we wouldn't have come up with on our own - why else would we need artists? If I wanted a story to be exactly how I wanted it to be, then I would either have to write it myself or hire someone to do it for me. But the question isn't what I would have liked, the question is whether the artist managed to do what THEY set out to do. Otherwise people would be justified to give Lord of the Rings a 1 star review because they wanted Frodo and Sam to be gay, it would be allowed to give Schindler's List a 1 star review because they were already feeling down and were searching for a comedy. If one is curious about why on earth an artist would make this or that decision, well, why not get curious? Why not read, watch or listen to Interviews or consume a making of? RU-vidr "Rick Worley" talks about that a lot. There's a difference between talking about a piece of art and talking about your own tastes and emotions. Everybody is free to their opinion and nobody must agree with an artist. But no good art was ever written "for the fans". Art is about self expression - though, of course, you need to have the ability to look at your publications in objective manner and redraft and overwork, but that's possible.
Mate you have no idea how many times I've seen that happen. This happened so many times with warrior cats, and the "fans" were acting so entitled, as if the authors had to write the characters to cater to their personal ideologies instead of just writing because it was something they liked doing. Tbh it almost made me want to quit writing my own books.
I don't care about Harry Potter at all, but that comment on him being too timid after being abused low key pissed me off. Abuse victims are conditioned to be passive so they can avoid being abused more, especially when they're kids. So it's no surprise that it would take some time for a kid in Harry's position to unlearn that behavior when he's put in a new environment.
Also i remember him gradually becoming more brash the longer he's away from his family anyways so the complaint doesnt really make sense to me. He's definitely not Percy Jackson, but Percy still had his mom on his side the whole time, while Harry had no one until Hogwarts, so it took him longer to start acting confident after he builds friendships and gets used to things through the first few books. So i don't think Harry and Percy are a fair comparison in that regard
Also, why did that person say that Harry Potter “had no spine”?? That kid was EXTREMELY brave. Every time an adult told him not to do something that could risk his life, he did it anyways!
Yeah, i actually went through an abusive school experience for about 3 years in 1st thru 3rd grade. And hell no if you'd ever find me sticking up for myself! Id just get more hurt! Cuz i was young and didn't know what to do, and just wanted to stop being hated for existing, now id definitely send those teachers to hell and back, but then, i didn't know how to cope with the world. I feel some of these err of the side of not quite understanding what people have gone through
Percy Jackson also absolutely took everyone’s shit lying down, and he only dealt with the problems at home when the gods mailed him a solution that didn’t require him to confront his stepdad directly.
@@0SC2 And resorted to straight up murder of him and his friends instead of, I dunno, calling the police on him and having his mum file for divorce. Especially in the movie where it’s really downplayed.
What I hate is what I call “he’s a boy and she’s a girl so they should kiss” syndrome, when just because a male and female character of compatible age and species are in the same story, there has to be a romance between them, regardless of whether they would reasonably be attracted to each other. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good romance-emphasis on GOOD. Two characters who up until this point have shown no indication of liking each other suddenly sucking face for no other reason than the fact that they are the male and female leads is not a good romance.
I hate how every fantasy book needs a side romance between boy and girl. There’s no important reason and it could be substituted as friends with nothing loss. It’s to the point where anytime I read a fantasy summary with two opposite gendered names, I put the book back. I only remember loving one fantasy romance novel because the romance was important for both characters and was setting up for an emotional impact down the line.
Frodo slander?! Frodo is so far from whiny like wtf??? Frodo always wanted an adventure then learns that he romanticized his uncle's stories and learns that its actually traumatizing and difficult. Omg I'm actually pissed he was used as an example here because he's so humble and his ordeal with the Ring is torturous in so many ways, if he ever says "hey this is pretty difficult " it's 1000% justified.
Not defending the original post, I agree with your comment actually, but imo, people think a lot about movie Frodo in this discussion. The movie really seemed to hype up the emotional/dramatic monents, and I've heard people say that those moments made reluctant characters seem more 'whiny' and have a 'i didn't actually want to be here' feel.
Maybe Frey from Forspoken would've been a better example. She'd rather go back to being a hobo in New York than be a powerful protector of Cipal, and won't stop bitching about that.
Frodo also carries a Ring so vile no one but him could even touch it for long without going mad. So besides his non combative non adventerous upbringing he has to make it to basicly Hell while being chased by dark spirits, orcs and other beasts. All while the ring eats away at his mind the longer he wears it. Only his pure innocent nature prevents him of evil. And its this soft nature that causes a more "Whiny" response to all this hardship and pain he is not used to. As the ring pryies on all negative and bad emotions. So it totally makes sense. If you take a non combative man grown up in a peaceful remote village and chunk him on a battlefield in a war you can bet they will shit themselves and complain/whine alot.
@@TrafalgarWaterDLaw-dl5cm Or grown up in the modern American suburbs, for that matter, as a young man with no military prospects myself who grew up a fairly shielded life in a suburban setting and probably couldn’t be convinced ever to “get in the robot” if only to save the world or my own life.
Hot take, but I just dont really like tsunderes. Hear me out, hear me out. I just dont like how they get little to no negative repercussions for the abuse they put their love intrests in. I just want those characters to learn "THAT YOUR ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES!!!1!"
The girl from Toradora was so fricking abusive, both emotionally and physically. She was treating that boy like a slave (literally, she was just breaking in his house and harassing him or he had to visit her and clean her house up) and didnt let him talk to anyone else, kept calling him her "dog", abusing him physically all the time etc. If the genders were reversed this anime would be a psychological twisted show about toxic relationships lmao.
I hear you! I also don't like Tsunderes as well. They're always like mean to the MC and the only thing that "Justifies" them is that damned "It's not like I like you or anything!" phrase! Like why does the Tsundere insult and beat the shit out of the MC because they love them? It's not how Relationships work!
Okay but the dude who said "characters who are bad people but justified by love/sad backstory" is so right. I'm always so annoyed by those types of characters, but the fandom normally loves them like. It's okay that you suffered to get where you are, but it's still not okay to make other people suffer because of it??? Huh???
I’m currently writing a story and one of the themes is how trauma can affect people’s actions and behavior in the present. However, I don’t want it to be excuses for their behavior(some are just genuinely bad people) Since it can honestly get annoying that someone can cause other’s misery and be forgiven by the fans or writing because “past sad=justification”
I like it when it's not used as justification but more of a "I can understand how you got to that point", not justifiable, but stead understandable. Like Dio, for example, his sad backstory in no way justifies his actions, but it certainly explains why and how he grew up to be such an ass and attempt to gain massive amounts of control and power. Edit: Talking specifically about backstory part, not love part.
I don't know, I feel like characters who are pushed to the point of terrible actions while still believing themselves to be good people can be pretty interesting. And dramatic topics like "love" or a "sad backstory" tend to be fun to explore in things like fanfics and fanart.
The only example of a pervert that was actually funny that I can think of is Manabe from the short anime Kotoura-san. He may be extraordinarily perverted but he would never actually do anything to anyone, especially not the person he loves, without permission. He also knows where the line is and doesn't take things too far with his pervertedness. Overall, Manabe's kind and genuinely hilarious to watch. Although I don't think that came across perfectly in the anime, he's still a better character and person than Mineta.
@@hyzmarie yep. Mineta is part of the reason why I started reading fanfic instead of the manga, I was so done and just wanted him to be left out of the story completely.
It gets worse when theyre also the pervert cuz "haha sexual harrassment". Like, I dont care if they get punished for it afterwards, the gag just got stale and gross
I personally hate most "activist" characters who are "too progressive", bitchy, annoying, or people who don't understand their cause. It feels like bad writing and that's not how most activists are irl.
@SomeCraftive-Art Maya is true. Wendy is from South park. She is most definitely there to either make fun of that trope, or because people like that are real. Hayley' from American dad so it might be the same as Wendy, but I dunno enough about it to conclude. However, they pretty good examples.
As much as I'm indifferent towards HP, calling a 11-year-old who lived in abusive household and therefore couldn't develop social skills spineless is absolutely insensitive, horrible, dishonor on your bloodline... People don't react to shit in the same way, angry Percy and quiet Harry are different reactions to abuse. Some want revenge, some want to forget and move on, some are still not sure. I love how people say main characters shouldn't be there so that reader can self-insert, that they should have their own complex personalities and flaws but turn around the moment MC isn't acting the way reader wants them to act
Yeah… of all the things to complain about in Rowling’s writing, _that ain’t it._ using the Percy Jackson comparison, there’s also the fact that he had his mom as a positive influence and as a result he _knew_ that the abuse was wrong. In Harry’s case, there was nothing like that. He was raised in an abusive household and it was all he’d ever seen. They can’t be expected to handle it the same
10:19 There's a difference between a character having no spine and a character being abused by his guardians for the first eleven years of his life. "Just took the abuse for years" sounds extremely victim blame-y and dismissive of the fact that Harry was severely neglected to the point where he had to sleep and basically live in a cupboard because nobody wanted to acknowledge his existence. I've never cared about the Harry Potter franchise so I don't actually know much about his personality, but even if he is spineless you can't use "he was abused as a child and just let it happen" as an example of that.
HP isn't my most favorite series ever, but calling the abused kid spineless is like calling a cat without it's claws weak at tearing stuff. Like, wtf Duh. No shit? And the crazy thing is is that HP himself is a brave mofo after he has time away from his abusers. I personally think however wrote that one didn't actually read HP. Or even watch the movies.
@@jamesnova745 I don't know how someone can write "this character is spineless because they allowed themselves to be abused" and not realise that they sound like a victim blaming pile of shit. Especially when they're talking about a child being sbused by his guardians. "Just took the abuse" what else was he supposed to do? How was he supposed to defend himself? Harry didn't even know he had magic until he was eleven and that was when he was taken away from his abusers. I assumed he had to become pretty brave because he's the Chosen One who's constantly up against dark magic and war and shit. The shy and awkward part was probably because he was a child entering a new school in a magic world he didn't even know existed until he was suddenly enrolled in the school.
@@hollyelizabethrose Exactly. The only place I could see any agreement is that he has to keep going back there. Now, later in a reason retconned is was that he needed to recharge the family protection spell. Especially when they lock his stuff up. However, it is a point that, whenever the Dursleys do try anything, people are there to either show that someone is keeping an eye on them or help get him out of there. The other think might be naming his son after a teacher that was abusive to most of his students and was only looking out for Harry for being the child of the woman he loved who died in part because of Snape. And that’s more in the vein that, with social media and recording devices becoming more prominent, people know that there’s a difference between a strict teacher and an abusive one. But aside from that, yeah this guy has issues.
@@snorpington5910and he hates it. It's made very clear that the attention he's given is uncomfortable as shit and that he rather be treated normal. Hell, in the books atleast, he has several angry speils of "OMFG I KNOW I'M POPULAR AND WHATEVER THE HELL, BUT TREAT ME NORMAL, NOT LIKE THE CHOSEN ONE." And yeah, mildly sassy but sarcasm was most likely the only way to kind of get back at his abusers. And the F you mean everyone who dislikes him is bad? Sure, obvious outliers like Malfoy and vold are bad. But I'm case you forgot, in book 5 literally EVERYONE hates Harry. Good or bad. The "good" eventually come around but still. Did I just wrote a small essay to you about why your wrong? Damn. I need to shorten my arguments.
The trope i hate the most is: "Strong female character", but her only trait is violence and being really strong. She's only there to punch and shoot stuff. Being a strong female character doesn’t have to mean physically strong; it should mean that she has flaws but can overcome them, that maybe she knows her strength and has to hold back. A "strong female character" just means a well written and fleshed out character who is female.
Charlie Brown sure, is a doormat, but he’s supposed to be the embodiment of everyone’s insecurities so people can relate and sympathize with him. And even if he’s a doormat, he still TRIES. He’s brave, confident, and never gives up even if he’s put down, and he’s not “just a doormat”.
For me it’s any edgy character that has the mentality of “kindness is a weakness” “it’ll just get you hurt” etc that never gets proven wrong by the narrative. It even worse if they’re supposed to be in the right. It’s a mixture of it going against my own personal philosophy and a writers habits to just project their real world opinions on the “cool edgy” character. It just feels condescending.
Broke: Character who believes kindness is weak is proven correct by the narrative, thus never changes. Woke: Character who believes kindness is weak is proven correct by the narrative, but through the course of their actions they begin to realize that being unkind and callous has far greater consequences. In this revelation, they make the (slowly developed) choice to be kind to their friends, and even as the narrative time and time again proves kindness makes you weak, the character chooses the pain of kindness over the complete and total isolation of callousness, fighting tooth and nail against the narrative in order to keep loving their closest friends.
YESSS THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! Of course being kind is hard, of course the world is gonna kick you for it sometimes but i'd rather endure the pain of kindness then take the easy, empty apathy to those around me. Characters that grow out of that habit can truly be some of my favourites it just sucks that they're rare and not the standard for characters like that.@@phrogman2207
I only love these characters when they are the villain (and are proven wrong by the heroes), or they discover on their own and accept that kindness isn't weakness.
I disagree with the 'project real world opinions' thing. Maybe sometimes yes that's the case but it's absolutely not. I have a character that's kind of like this and let me tell you I don't agree with his philosophy. Hell, I'm writing the dude and I've gotten fed up with him sometimes. Besides, I think characters like that are more tragic/sad than anything, I feel pity and concern for them.
1:50 Come on, give Charlie Brown a break. He is 4 years old and is mostly picked on by specifically one person that is overall mean to everyone. Good grief like have you seen the amount of times he tries and fails multiple times to fly a kite or kick a football? The fact that he is still trying shows he has some grit. Someone just got to show him how to stand up for himself
Don't Harp on My bald boy He's a good kid He's just anxious And he does push back Somtimes, and it's awesome Charlie losing all the time makes his occasional wins so much better Small Victories He made a friend at summer camp He gets aprieiated He succeeds at a sport once All of these wouldn't be satisfying if he wasn't so docile 90% of the time
Seems to be a trend with blaming children for things like this, both with Charlie and that one guy who said Harry just “took the abuse” Like cmon, dude was 11 years old in book one, and he WAS trying to fix his situation, do we not remember his attempts at staying at hogwarts to get away from his parents?
This was said in the video a couple times but WE NEED MORE STRONG KIND CHARACTERS. Being kind isn’t a weakness but it gets treated as such in so much media. Even kind characters that canonically don’t have the tuna salad equivalent of a backbone and can fend for themselves get “soft uwu baby”-ified by the fandom and it drives me *b o n k e r s.*
"Even kind characters that canonically don’t have the tuna salad equivalent of a backbone and can fend for themselves get “soft uwu baby”-ified by the fandom. . ." Papyrus
YES THANK YOU Kindness is a CHOICE and so is rudeness and cruelty, and the strongest people are the ones who choose kindness (not blind nativity, which people often confuse it for, but actual kindness and optimism)
this is exactly the reason why i hate how people treat Cinderella, i see many people trying to rewrite her and miss the entire point of her character, like apparently it's bad for her being kind and not standing up easily to her abusive family who had intimidated her to be a servant since she was a kid????
@@poppythedogofwonders So is Amity! Like come on people Edit: I know Amity is a teen but she was under SO much pressure. She was upset to leave Willow, at least that's what I'm pretty sure of.
2:41 Catra: Abused her power, forced her childhood friends into horrible working conditions, attempted to murder her love interest and never properly apologised Amity: Was mean at school because her parents made her be, apologised nonstop I wouldn't compare them 😭
To be fair, Amity’s parents didn’t make her be mean. They just told her not to be friends with Willow anymore. They never told Amity to bully Willow. The show itself even acknowledges this. I agree that Catra is a worse written character though.
@@cml6581 but still, if you are a child and your parents constantly tell you "don't associate with those people becuase we are better than them",, its probably going to lead to you not being nice to those people. children automatically try to learn how to act from what their parents are doing.
@@warriorcatkitty If that were the case, then I wouldn’t go out of my way to bully someone I was told not to associate with. I wouldn’t be nice to them, either- I would simply ignore them. The show tries to pass off this narrative with Amity, as she is accused of letting her friends bully Willow for years, but it ignores that Amity herself was a bully, too. Amity’s character from the first episode was completely retconned to make her seem more sympathetic to pair her up with Luz, anyway, so I mostly blame the inconsistent writing here.
@@cml6581a character isn’t badly written just because they did things differently than you would 😭 she was clearly written to have a redemption from the start and the show didn’t forget she was a bully it just had to move on with the story at some point
@@isabellek-q3183 I literally never even said that 😭 I KNOW she was written to be redeemed since she’s the typical mean girl with shitty parents archetype I’ve seen in media 100 times. I was referring to how she went from a maniac who was willing to sit by and let Luz get dissected to uwu sad girl Pacifica Northwest 2.0. In my previous comment, I said that the show forgot that she herself bullied Willow, since again Willow accuses Amity of letting Boscha and the others be bullies but she herself isn’t acknowledged as a bully too. And if the show had to move on with the story, they shouldn’t have made Amity into Willow’s bully at all, especially since it made Luz look like a bad friend for wanting to date her.
Characters that are really smart and emotionless. The most intelligent people I know are also the most compassionate ones and while I understand that my experience isn't the absolute truth, it still rubs me the wrong way to see almost every single smart character portrayed as "too smart to feel". On the flip-side, characters that are portrayed as smart but can't figure out plot-twisty stuff that I understood from the get go, those also get under my skin. Even if the author has to not reveal said twist to the audience until much later, at least make the character guess something even if we as the audience don't know what !
I think the reason smart characters are seen as being too smart to feel is that a lot of in real life genius have had trouble connecting with people. Of course I completely understand your point, it's great to have really intelligent people also be really kind too.
agree some smart can be funny and witty example, hange zoe from attack on titan it just annoys me that they were made as if they are out cast because they were nerd the author seems making the character hatable than relatable i mean smart people can have friends to right
@@infinityc2859 pretty sure they have emotions and stuff, they just dont get to use them (from your information that they dont get to talk to people or something)
Especially when the character is said to be neurodivergent in some way. They're either infantilized or turned into a Sheldon Cooper. Not all rep is good rep.
I don't think that the donkey from Shrek's sole purpose is being funny, his role is also to be Shrek's friend/compagnon and to have a personnality that contrast with Shrek's one.
Donkey is the platonic friendship for Shrek that gets him out of being so isolationist, and kind of works alongside Fiona taking that from a romance standpoint to promote to Shrek to open his heart to others. Definitely not a bad character in that movie. Haven't watched Shrek 2 though so maybe Donkey loses his thematic purpose there?
Not to mention that Shrek is a comedy, so everyone DOES have their turn to be funny. Maybe the later movies botch that premise a little too hard, though, I haven't seen the third or fourth movie in a few years, actually.
9:38 AND THIS IS WHY I LOVE ZUKO FROM ATLA. He earns his redemption by nearly sacrificing himself for the gaang from a problem he caused. Before that, he stood up to his father and left. And he still wasn't trusted by his victims straight away. He went on life-changing field trips with most of the gaang and earned their trust.
Exactly! Katara especially took longer to forgive him, which added on to his arc so much. He had to work even harder to earn her trust and prove that he really wanted to help the Gaang. And he did! Zuko is awesome.
Dawg Donkey was thematically important to Shrek's willingness to interact with people and liked Shrek despite his looks and everything these people gotta leave Donkey out of the abuse meant for that stupid tiny white bastard that is Olaf
People who get mad at nervous child characters who are abused is so weird to me 😭😭 “why don’t they stand up for themselves” when their whole life they accepted their life as normal. “Write complex characters” until the characters behave realistically 💀💀
"I couldn't treat the traumatised severely mentally ill character with empathy because they didn't calmy and rationally react to their sister who they believed betrayed them and left them to die" is an absurdly awful take holy shit
The only reason she believed vi betrayed her is because silco told her that… but she already was completely aware that silco deliberately caused all of the problems in her life and is explicitly just using that to manipulate her, and was the actual person responsible for vi leaving in the first place. She knew all of that. She was well aware. But she still blamed vi. For some reason.
The mental gymnastics Jinx stans will perform in order to justify their fav's victim complex is so genuinely funny lmao they be like "omg she's so traumatised" and the trauma in question is just the consequences of her own stupid actions xD
@@user-cq5gl1ri7qOkay, I'm not one to treat characters like real people, but holy shit even if she was this is the most terrible and unsympathetic way to think about.... anything????? ever???? Like, you know trauma still counts even if it came from something you were not entirely blameless in, that doesn't make it less trauma??? Trauma is not a "good person button". It's not a "victim button". It's a very real mental effect that very much does affect people, whether you consider them bad people or not. That's crazy, that you would think of it like you do.
Love how the “main character that has no spine” uses an abused child as an example. I hate Rowling a lot but kids aren’t spineless for not knowing how to stand up to their abusers. There is so much worse writing in HP
LITERALLY. Like… you hate the 11 year old child because he didn’t… what? Fight his abusive family? The people who literally decide wether he eats or not? Wtf is wrong with you?
This was probably the worst example the person could have made. This irritation was probably gained when they first encountered these two franchises, and then never re-examined after that. The misunderstanding of a child makes sense that this was the conclusion, that Harry just didn't have a backbone, but obviously they needs to scrutinize that child conclusion. Harry had a backbone in the end, but he had to learn what it was for through the series. That's not the same as a wet rag of a person.
The complaint about Jinx lowkey reminds me of “mental health matters only if it’s quirky and romantic.” (Which is sadly how some people view mental illness, like intrusive thoughts, for example) Like, of course she isn’t going to act rational, she was traumatized at 8-11 years old. While that isn’t a good reason to kill random people, you know the reason behind it and not just “I kill for fun.”
And of course, you don’t have to like her, just know, she’s a good example of miscommunication and mental health issues done right and not making it seem like a good thing or fetishizing it
Definitely So many people complain about panic attacks and PTSD And go 'Why didn't this geg magically solved by the end, it obviously doesn't take years of therapy to be fine" and it pisses me off
@@andrewphillips4681Steven universe future got that complaint - about how Steven's completely out of character the whole show. Like, did we watch the same show? He's dealing with trauma - and has been since early in the original series. Of course he's going to snap and panic one day, even if it seems like it out of left field - because that's just how it happens
The arcane one is insane "Jinx's mental issues used as flimsy excuse" the girls is literally tormented by visions of her dead loves ones that she herself killed by mistake and was raised by a guy who constantly proyected his own issues with being betrayed onto her
So her mental issues justify what makes her annoying because they're sufficiently extreme? Someone can be as justified as a god and still be a chore to watch.
The mental gymnastics Jinx stans will perform in order to justify their fav's victim complex is so genuinely funny lmao they be like "omg she's so traumatised" and the trauma in question is just the consequences of her own stupid actions xD
@@user-cq5gl1ri7q I'm not sure I'd go that far. Some people prefer a clean room because it helps them think, while others prefer a messy room because it lets them find what they need faster (it's "clean to them" because it's organized to their liking). The same is true of fiction; some people simply have a higher tolerance for messy characters (dispositionally or circumstantially) than others. But I think we both agree that so long as people are going to indulge in messy characters, it would be preferable to appreciate them for reasons beyond the fact that they're a mess.
While I don’t like villains who are REDEEMED by their tragic backstory or their relationship with the protagonist, I love it when a villain has a tragic backstory and the narrative acknowledges it but still condemns their actions. Like “hey, wow, I’m sorry about what happened to you, that sucks. But also you’re still a terrible person and the villain of this story.” To me it’s realistic to acknowledge someone’s reasons for doing bad things but not just allowing their love or their backstory to instantly make them someone to root for. Steven Universe had the same issue for me.
I think unfortunately Steven Universe was forced to go that route because Cartoon Network was putting it on the chopping block, so they had to be quick. I could be wrong, I remember seeing people explain that’s the reason though
1:30 What do you mean FLIMSY excuse??? ☠️ Jinx is literally psychotic a lot of the time. She's a mess with a capital M. She based her entire life off of thinking Vi hates her and you're somehow surprised a character with this much trauma, self loathing and abandonment issues doesn't communicate in a healthy way?? Did someone watch the show just for the fan service and missed any and all nuance? 🥺
What is that person talking abt? Jinx’s mental issues aren’t a “flimsy excuse”, they’re an extremely visceral and developed part of her character that make complete sense. Also she absolutely does get a chance to communicate with Vi in the end- but she makes a mess of it because of the way she’s developed.
I get what you’re saying, but there is a difference between what you think about the characters and what you feel about the characters. When I watched Arcane I was also extremely frustrated not because Jinx was a bad character but because my subconscious just felt *bad* that nothing was getting through. Like I know why, but it didn’t stop me from feeling frustrated that this was happening. Like when a show uses an unnecessary amount of suspense. I get why they do it, but it’s still frustrating to think that the character finally gets a good day only to have that ruined by villain number 293.
They do not make complete sense, because why tf would she actively become the minion of the guy who is the entire reason for all of her problems. She chose that. Why? If she’s that upset by it why is she not upset at him? And if she just had some kind of mental break/joker moment type deal, why would she then hold a grudge against vi? “She’s crazy, therefore she’s mean to the people we need her to be mean to, and nice to the people we need her to be nice to”
@@agoosewithinternet So you're saying that it is *frustratingly* good written? Like "This is such impressive writing but I hate this fictional situation"?
@@benballard5930It makes sense because you can't exactly expect that a traumatized little girl would make the racional decisions. There are a lot of character analysis of Jinx analysing her character's mentality.
Amity is a terrible example for "bad guys who are justified BC of their sad backstory or bc the main character is their love interest". She stops being a bad guy after being in a few episodes and her bad actions were never "justified", but just forgiven. Also she doesn't become Luz's love interest until after she stops being bad.
10:29 as someone who been abused by his dad before, I can tell that that person has never if ever experienced some challenge in their lives. The god damn audacity to put the blame on abused child really shows their ignorance and inhumanity on full display
The single worst character type in my opinion is a sequel villain whom the narrative tricks the viewer into thinking is just the original villain, having returned from the dead, before revealing he is someone else. Imagine wanting a villain to come back in the sequel, think you got that, be happy about it for a long time and then it turns out this was never the original character. Worst way to do a plot twist ever. I absolutely hate these trick-villains.
Or in the case of William Afton, wanting the new villain to not be the old villain and the new one is in fact technically not william but it leaves a sour taste in your mouth anyways because it feels like a cop-out. Looking at you, Mimic and Glitchtrap.
I 💕 love 💕the Percy Jackson series but I think that it's a little unfair to call Harry Potter wimpy, especially in the beginning. Because Percy had his mother and Grover who loved and cared for him, which I think help encouraged him to be brave for the both of them and himself But Harry was an orphan living with abusive family members. No one came to help him for years until he was old enough to enter the wizarding world
Thats exactly what i was thinking, Percy still family and friends, Harry didn't. Once he experiences life away from home he starts becoming more confident and starts acting out
That's true since with Harry (both in the books and the movies) he lost both of his parents at a very young age and didn't have any friends (even if he did before Hogwarts, it was likely not for long) and it didn't help that he had to live with abusive family members. Where as Percy it was the opposite, he had both parents alive and one of them (his mom) cared for him and he does have two friends who deeply care for him (Grover then Anabeth once Percy goes to camp). Although Percy (like Harry) wasn't treated the best from a family member (Stepfather for Percy's case) but since Percy had people care for him for so long thats likely why he had more confidence than Harry since the beginning. (And both gotten more confident when the series progressed)
1:22 "The Miscommunication" problem here isn't bringing up one of the variable that caused Vi and Jinx to be constantly drifting apart; Silco. There were many outside influences that cause the sisters to be bitter to each other despite their best efforts. Vi's crush on Caitlyn and Jinx's hatred for enforcers, Vi's hate for Silco and Jinx's attachment to him etc.
Femme fatales. For me, it's less the trope itself and more that I see them EVERYWHERE. The world needs more genuine female villains that aren't just there for extra sex appeal, dangit!
YEAH like. dont get me wrong, i (as a gal) enjoy the characters too, a solid vixen villainess is always fun, but like. i hate seeing them without actual fleshed out motives or personalities??? imo there’s nothing wrong with Having one of those characters, but for the love of god, let them be an _actual character_ and not just a fanservice!!
same here! i enjoy a well-written femme fatale character because it reminds me that being evi/powerful and strong can go hand in hand with being feminine and girlie. if the femme fatale is truly written to be a femme fatale, a cold-blooded killer of a woman and not just the author's (especially a man's) personal eye candy, she will quickly become one of my favorite characters
I don’t really agree with the Amity one. Sure Luz ended up being her love interest but she was her friend first and she was the first person to get her to really open up. She helped her become friends with Willow again and gave her the strength to change and dump Bosha as a friend. And the only reason she acts like that is because of her family. Her parents literally dragged her away from her only friend and forced her to be friends with Bosha when she was really young. Amity clearly had an abusive and controlling relationship with her parents specifically her mom. Her falling in love with Luz didn’t suddenly make her good. Her meeting Luz got her to open up for the first time and decide on her own to start changing her behavior
I like Amity (though I prefer Luz) but I think a big miss opportunity is Willows lack of development. Like how does Willow feel when Luz is dating her ex bully? I know this is affected by the cancellation so it’s hard to be mad at it.
I totally agree with you there, that part of the video kinda made me raise a brow. The way she starts fawning over Luz like literally immediately in a overly humorous and blushy manner. I don’t know about you, but it felt… stereotypical to me, you know what I mean? Like, I think it was the same thing you saw in queer stories written by young or inexperienced writers or artists and after seeing so many of them at a time they just started tasting bitter in my mouth
@@Ghost-Song7714, I think a lot of kids can relate to being awkward around crushes and that part of her character lessens over time unlike another show Miraculous. This also didn’t begin immediately within the show and the turning point was in between Lost in Language Also while it is kinda blatant these things so people don’t say just friends even though I still saw people thinking Amity didn’t like Luz because of that fictional character she drew art of.
Amity was a 14 year old mean girl and the daughter of a heartless bitch but changed as a person as fast and rigorously as a girl her age could have, even at the end her friendship with willow is very clearly in its early stages and it's obvious a lot more work has to be done for them to fully leave it behind, catra is a heartless bitch and the daughter of another heartless bitch and did not stop being a heartless bitch until the second half of the final episode, where we got a confession, a kiss, and... nope that's it
I love those "bad guys justified through backstory" because I don't see it as justification. They're pieces of shit who slowly learn to be better, healthier people. There's reasons why they're terrible, but I never take it as excuses for being terrible. Realizing you've hurt people and trying to do better is a story I can always get behind. Catra dug a hole so deep that the "redemption" was not being an immediate threat right now. Fell flat for me
That’s actually a great way to look at it. I also like “bad guys with a backstory” characters because you can be like “yeah, they’re a piece of crap” and understand why that is. You don’t have to like them or justify their actions, you just know how they got to that point.
The difference between the outlook on this tropue you have, and the outlook the person in video has, is that you look at the well written ones, while the other looked at the badly written ones. Honestly the entire video isn't really about troupes people hate, more so when those specific troupes are done badly
@@mikonyx7712 That’s a good point! All of these tropes can be done well, the people in the video simply haven’t found one in which it was properly done.
I don't know if there's a name for it, but for me its that one dude who's borderline homeless, struggling to make ends meet, most likely divorced and fighting for custody, and owes 50 different gangs absurd amounts of money and is constantly acting like they have a really good excuse every time they can't pay back. It gets even worse when their backstory later reveals they were having a pretty good life and it would have stayed that way had they not got involved with the gangs to begin with. Literally the definition of, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
While that trope is overused, it is also sadly very accurate to the real life idiots who do that shiz. Like, unless the character was explicitly shown that they knew better and had literally no reason to get involved, I don't mind that trope that much. Now, as I just stated, if they already knew better and had literally no motive, that's different, that's stupid. Like, if they do that trope at least show the guy was already faking being rich or that he was a greedy bastard in his past or SOMETHING.
Also, being just a straight idiot and having motives are different. You CAN have no motive but just be stupid enough to not know better. Like, I dunno, using a vape for the first time without knowing the consequences, but having no real reason to, not even peer pressure.
@@jamesnova745 I should clarify, that I'm specifically talking about the type that think they can talk their way out of everything for the rest of time while actively making their situation worse. It's one thing to use this trope as motivation or character development, its something else entirely when the character is straight up a nuisance and really is just that stupid and never actually improves their behaviour.
@@poppythedogofwonders To paint a picture, imagine it like this. The protagonist needs to find someway to get to the boss of some underground crime syndicate and Side Character A barges in and claims they can get them a meeting with their "Criminal Connections." Several minutes of story later, its revealed that the connections in question were literally an acquaintance relationship with one member of one gang who can't even help them and 50 million dollars of debt with several other gangs. The protagonist fends off the gangs and Side Character A gets of scot free and continues to do what they're doing. Normally Side Character A will develop into a member of the main group or something like that, but needless to say they usually never get any character development beyond this point as they are then reduced to background character that occasionally says something. That's specifically the type of this trope I'm talking about. This trope can be done well and make for a really compelling story, but it is overused and often times baffling how common it is.
Violent tsunderes. When a character (typically a girl) is in love with someone, but the only way they can express that "love" is by repeatedly beating the sh*t out them, getting mad at them for making them blush (then beating them for it), getting mad at them for calling out that crush (then beating them) and generally beating them for every little "trangression". All that beating because "they're shy and in denial of those feelings" and we're supposed to sympathise with him or her and root for them to end up together, when that relationship would be the most toxic experience for both parties
Sometime the characters have been traumatized to the point that they considere that attachement is a weakness and they behave like a Tsundere to try to avoid it.
Yeah, the tsundere trope really bothers me. There have been video games and anime that I couldn't finish because of it. Case in point, the digimon franchise. There's a game called Hacker's Memory that many people consider to have a great story with good writing... and yeah, the story itself would have been amazing to me if it weren't for a character called Erika. She's very central to the plot, and most of her issues are relevant to the story. Except... she's implied to have a crush on the player character... and she constantly beats him up or berates him when he does something she considers stupid. It's also implied that the PC has feelings for her too, and I hate the fact that we as the player don't have the option to really say no or tell her off--that we're forced to comply to this "romance" because the story says so. It really turned me off from enjoying the game. I get that she is suffering, and I get that it's just how the story was written, but beating up someone else over and over isn't funny or okay. I dislike the character Jellymon in Digimon Ghost Game for similar reasons. Our first impression of the character is her manipulating and beating up her partner because she's obsessed with him. Eugh. I long for the day where a tsundere in a story gets called out on their toxic bs and has some realistic consequences.
I hate characters who are overly bitchy or full of themselves. I also hate how in a lot of stories/media "Bitchiness/meanness = confidence." People are always saying "Be kind to one another!" While also uplifting the most problematic faces (both fictional and IRL). If a person has to be rude to prove their social ranks, it's because they feel weak/intimidated. I also hate characters who push other characters into relationships/the character who never moves on from a crush and insists their love interest will feel the same about them one day. I dealt with a boy like that IRL and it was both annoying and depressing, especially since I told him a thousand times I wasn't interested.
1:47 Charlie Brown is my BOY dawg, and he will NOT be disrespected. I literally hate all the other Peanuts characters except Linus bc of how badly they treat him (and I still haven’t even forgiven Linus for running off with one of Charlie’s crushes that one time) 😤😤 2:34 Amity and Catra had good character development tho didn’t they? (I haven’t watched much of either show) 4:06 I agree that this type of character is annoying, but I do NOT think Naveen is a good example. He was likely very sheltered and he even said himself in the movie that he didn’t know how to do anything because the servants did everything for him. And he didn’t stay ignorant, he had character development with Tiana teaching him and changing his outlooks.
Nah, Catra is a good example of that trope, but I think that was more writers circumstance then anything else. Amity however does NOT deserve to be called that trope and had amazing character development.
@@jamesnova745 I'm sorry, but I don't agree about Catra. She starts to see what she did was wrong and that she's on the "bad side" like, int the 4th season. Then when she reached her breaking point, she literally choose to sacrifice herself. Instantly, as her first opinion, as her first act as a "good character". Also, she constantly says she doesn't deserve forgiveness or good. Catra is a very radical example of a redemption arc, where the absolute worst enemy turns ally, and she didn't even ask for forgiveness or wanted to "do good finally", she just had enough of the evil guys. She still has problems and isn't instantly cool with everything/everyone either, BUT she explicitly says on screen that she is working on it. In my opinion, she is so much more detailed than a trope. Sorry for my rambling, I could continue, but already noone will finnish reading this essay... Also, this is my opinion! I don't want to say I have the objective truth.
Catra and Amity are two completely different characters. I didn't like Catra's redemption arc becauase it felt rushed and unearned, but I think that Amity was a great character that had a good, organic arc.
I like both Catra and Amity but yes they were different characters. Catra’s wrong doings are way more extreme than Amity’s, objectively. One was mean in middle school and one is a war criminal, BFFR 😭😭
Ok but jinx was literally crazy, you can’t expect her to just be entirely stable and trusting like “oh that totally makes sense let’s be sisters again” she was delusional and actively hallucinating a lot of the time
I think the kind of character I hate are those who aren't consistent at all. It's one thing for a character to change their mind about something, but it's something else when the writers just completely forget some aspect of their backstory that was firmly established and was a major plot point no less than one season ago.
Yup. if annoying character types don't at least follow their own annoying traits for either most of the story or to a point where they develop past the trait, they've failed at being characters. Switching to and fro repeatedly isn't good.
Not sure if its really the same thing, but in the last season of regular show it felt like all the characters just lost all of their development out of nowhere and that really pissed me off
Seeing Jinx on the thumbnail had me doing a double take, lol. I actually like how she’s bad at communicating because she hasn’t seen Vi in years, and now she’s back….with a cop in tow. Of course she’s not going to be the best at talking to her sister, and also, she’s only really talked to maybe two other people in that time. Then again, I also just like a variety of characters other people don’t care much for, Like Ethan from _Resident Evil._
No fr. Of course Jinx won't be openly communicating. Girl is traumatised and now doesn't know if she can really TRUST her sister, let alone the fact that she thought she was dead all the years. Come on, it's kind of understandable that she's cautious.
Fr, arcane is a classic tragedy!! meaning that things could have gone right, but they didn't. There could have been a way to convince jinx that silco was manipulating her etc. etc., but with all of the circumstance, it just didn't go right, and to me that seems more realistic than the characters just calmly sitting down and talking out their issues.
@@Bella_Blackand the most tragic part about it is that jinx is trying constantly to communicate. She puts herself out there constantly. She lights the flare, she seeks out silco, the whole dinner party scene is her trying to communicate. They're literally all sat down around the dinner table to have a discussion and to have everybody say their piece and come to an understanding. She's just soooo bad at the communicating thing
She also has terrible hallucinations that literally haunt her. The first thing she says to Vi is if she's "real". Like she was convinced that she'd never get the day to hug Vi again.
hey if you like characters like that there's Indus from Epithet Erased.... He can bench press a truck. He is easy to trick into eating bugs. He canonically eats stickers. Here's a thing from a non-canon script: --- She looks around conspiratorially. MERA: ...You do commissions? RAMSEY: Ough-huh. MERA: Like. Drawing commissions? RAMSEY: Yhegh. MERA: ...How much? She she takes the parrot out of his mouth. RAMSEY: What, you want me to draw you some himbos? She shoves the parrot back in his mouth, then whips around to see if INDUS heard that. INDUS has picked up a child-sized pumpkin costume and upturned it, dropping all the contents onto the floor. He places the empty plastic wrap on his head. INDUS: Look Lady Mera! I am a bag! MERA: ...Ugh. All I asked was "how much". RAMSEY spits the parrot out. RAMSEY: Well, depends what you're buyin'! And remember, like I said, I don't judge! You got a fursona? MERA: What? RAMSEY has already produced a sketchpad from somewhere and started drawing. RAMSEY: Y'know. Fursona. Like... Maybe I take this big guy... I think you said he used to have a Barrier epithet? Barrier, barrier... Great Barrier Reef! Bam. Make 'im a clownfish. Draw you a big muscle-y clownfish man with no shirt on. MERA: Wh- no! No! If you draw a clownfish, you get nothing. RAMSEY: Man. You're prickly. Imma make you a little purple sea anemone. Because you? You hurt me. [im gonna skip a tiny bit] MERA: Wh! No! Shut! Shut up! I am NOT a sea anenemy! Anenomy! Anendobly! Dammit! I am an adorable arctic fox named Gwennifer, and you will NOT make Indus a-- RAMSEY shows her the drawing. MERA: Clownfish. Oh. She takes the drawing and holds it out, examining it from multiple angles. We see the drawing. Indus has been rendered as a huge man with rippling muscles, but his head is a cartoony clown fish. He is cradling an extremely tiny purple sea anemone with angry eyebrows, gingerly protected between his pecs. MERA: That's... that's pretty good actually... --- I am giving 0 context
For me it’s how every villain/bully character is always a punk/emo while the main characters just look ‘normal. It’s just teaching people that we’re always bad people and I feel like it’s part of the reason why parent pull their kids away from me and my friends when we’re just trying to enjoy the day like everyone else, and why I’m scared to go into school every day.
Honestly I would say Cool Kid Cody DOESN'T do this, but the character that's seen as a bully [Juvie] literally has their aesthetic listed as "Punk bad guy" so,,, But they ARE basically the funniest character. Any scene with them in it is just automatically funnier. Although, this is literally one of the first scenes that features them in the game...: --- Juvie: That's what you were hiding for? To hear us make up? Juvie: PHEW! For a second I thought you were just afraid of me! Juvie: ... You're not afraid of me, are you pizza dweeb? Peter: ... N-no? Juvie: Mhm. And you're not afraid of Cody either? Peter: No, I mean why would I be? Juvie: Exactly, why would anyone be afraid of Cody? Juvie: I bet you think he wouldn't hurt a fly! Juvie grabs Peter!! Peter: AGHHHH W-WAIT WHAT'RE YOU DOING?! Cody: JUVIE!! STOP! Juvie: Make me. Juvie waits to see if Cody makes any move to stop them. He does nothing. He just stares at them pleadingly. Juvie: And THAT'S what you should be afraid of. --- vs one of their latest scenes [from the finale, 2 months after the first scene]: --- Mini runs and jumps onto Juvie. Juvie: AGHH!! Juvie: Oh, hi! Juvie gives Mini a peck on the cheek. Juvie: Aww, when'd you get so cute? Cody: [Running up to Juvie's dog] Who's a cutie?? Yes you are!! Good dog, good good dog!! Juvie: AGHH!! When'd THEY get here?? Peter: Yeah I'm not a fan of PDAs either. Mini: Aww, but you're so cute when you're embarrassed!! Juvie: Whatever, we'll have more time for, uhh, that stuff later. I'm tryina walk the dog here. --- And let me just show you the BEST SCENE IN EPISODE 6: MINI'S CHOICE [takes place 6 years before the events of CKC]: --- Mini is crying. She clutches onto the hair tie. Juvie: OH!! Juvie: I-is that a hair tie?? Juvie: I've always wanted one actually! Juvie: I uh, kinda like the idea of growing my hair out. Feels real punk rock. Juvie: Didja find it just for me? I really like it y'know! Mini: ... You're just saying that. This is trash and you know it. Mini throws the hair tie back into the sand. Juvie picks it up. Juvie: Maybe I like trash. ---
2:44 Amity was actually well written though. Her backstory wasn’t used as an excuse, and she was actually shown putting in the effort to be a better person, and it all happened at a very natural and believable pace. The show acknowledged that Amity did not deserve any of the abuse from her parents, and that they manipulated her, but also acknowledged that she bullied Willow and Luz out of her own volition. As for Catra, she was well written in the first 4 seasons of spop, but got ruined by season 5’s awful writing. 99% of her redemption arc focused solely on how sad she feels that actions have consequences. But oh wait no they don’t,, all the other characters immediately forgave her
Yeah I liked how Amity was written too. It took time and effort for Willow to forgive Amity. You see less of it with Luz, but there was less one-sided bullying with Luz and more back and forth mutual conflict (Luz helps Gus cheat, Amity gets Luz banned from school, Luz reads Amity's diary, etc) so I think it's very fair that they moved past their initial conflicts together.
Catra needed consequences. The redemption arc was to much. Maybe some type of jail would have shown the seriousness. The instant happy ending didn’t work maybe it would have when she got much much older.
3:33 Why is princess Peach here? She’s the princess of a kingdom full of living mushrooms. She has to be skillful and highly competent. She literally is about to go to war. And the Mario movie was written shallowly so literally no one but Mario got development so it isn’t a Princess Peach only thing. Heck she did more for the movie than Luigi, his brother. More over to the next prompt, Navine was a sheltered ass prince who was kicked out on a whim. How is he supposed to know who’s shady? The next two peeps were spot on tho. And I still liked the vid VwV
The characters whos entire personality revolves around their race/sexuality/disability not that any of those things are bad, but its just poor writing when those characters exist solely with those traits rather than making a solid character first and adding those things later if they fit.
YES! The best ANTI-example of that I can think of is Captain Holt (rip to his actor) and Rosa Diaz from Brooklyn Nine Nine. Both are POC, both are LGBTQ+ (Holt and his husband are PRECIOUSSSS and rosa’s bi like her actress!) and neither have that as their sole trait. They exist as PEOPLE, too! Holt’s comedy isn’t from him being gay or black. It’s from him being constantly deadpan and totally drab, no matter what. He’s a person beyond his sexuality and race, which I adore. Thank you, Brooklyn Nine Nine - I soooo recommend this show for its casual rep
@@milliemino8424 see, this is why Brooklyn-99 is one of the best shows I’ve ever watched. But damn did that last season hit me like a brick. They did so many things right in that show.
Ah. I see you have watched VELMA. I can't think of any example better then that show and it's minority racist crapbag of a protagonist. I literally can't think of anyone better suited for you comment.
What annoys me personally: toxic female love-interests, who treat their boyfriend like dirt, yet they get together with him, because "they be lookin' so cute~". Or even worse, when the story treats the male character as if he's a jerk, when he finally stands up to his abusive girlfriend. (Looking at you, "Eevee Squad".)
Man, I hate spineless characters too but that person literally called a child that's being abused spineless 💀 It's a child and an abuse victim, don't victim-blame him.
I think people in the comments are taking it way too seriously, no? It's a fictional character, you can blame him for whatever you want and it will literally do no harm
@@jekylljekyllhyde821 It quite literally does. It doesn't matter whether he's fictional or no. He's based on a real issue - abuse. People here are victim blaming and that will only fall back into reality.
I can't stand the creepy pervert characters. Espsecially when you're supposed to actually like them and find them find them funny, it's not funny it's just gross
That’s pretty much Zenitsu. He had POTENTIAL to grow out of it, respect women, and actually have a proper character arc when he overcomes his fear. But Gotouge sucks at writing so much that they just sideline Zenitsu until the final battle.
To me I always see it as a way to try and justify and normalize sensual harassment in media. No, you repeatedly touching someone and making uncomfortable sx jokes is not funny. You are gross!
I actually tend to ADORE the journalist character(s). Especially the ones who are protagonists and/or neutral parties. I like that they're usually laymen who aren't directly involved in the action (but might have some emotional/personal connection to it). It does depend a lot on execution (a generic stock character without personality is still a stock character) but when it's done well I find that they're really endearing and end up being some of my favorite cast members, whether they're silly or grounded or anything in between! I think I tend to find them the most relatable because they're often just regular people with a genuine passion which isn't something you can always get from the main characters in a story with fantastical elements.
carly nagisa from yugioh 5ds and the ore journal staff members (not their boss tho, i don't like their shitty boss 😭) from kamen rider ryuki my beloveds
@Ponkotsu6562 Carla was hilarous. And when she became evil it wasn't even like " I used to be goofy but now I suddenly hate everyone and everything! Screw you guys! And especially Jack who I was most definitely falling in love with at some point!" She still kept her goofyness and the whole "what the heck am I doing and why am I here?" Aspect. (Yes she had her moments of over the top badguyness but mostly she was still her.) I loved Carla's depiction.
My dad's book has this trope as the main character. Her name is Logwyn, and she is a scribe who documents a story that already happened through interviews with different people who were there. It's a bit more complicated than that but it's definitely a good version of the trope you're talking about, IMO.
In defense of peach from the Mario movie, you could assume that her skills and her fierce need to protect her kingdom come from the fact that she’s lived in this kingdom since she was a baby. She’s very kind to her people she genuinely cares about her kingdom. She’s not just a helpless girl being captured by a fire breathing turtle with a Mohawk.
@@garnetember8569 The problem is she is a girl, therefore she can't be Good at stuff in their eyes People call Korra a Mary Sue despite her being the exact opposite, but because she's a girl, she is buzz word
I feel like the Mary sue attribute only applies to characters who are both a-holes that never take anything seriously, and a person that always gets what they want with no effort. You can have those attributes, but then there’s the cherry on top which is “they are so unlikable but they have the most screen time and you HAVE to root for them”
I'll share a character type that I love to lessen the hate: villains who are completely justified in their motivation but are still in the wrong due to the methods they use to achieve their goals (my absolute favourites for these are Himiko Toga from MHA, Kokichi Ouma from DRV3 and Mera Salamin from Epithet Erased)
I recently saw a really good video analysis of Kokichi (kind of) that defended him from a person saying he's a bad written character. I hope I phrased this right.
@@Ineedanoriginalnameacceptthis he isn't written the BEST (especially when characters like Mikan, Nagito and Kazuichi exist) but he does what he does well and the DR series doesn't really do good surface-level writing, the best character writing is due to what's implied or hidden ...but overall Mera is my favourite of the 3 I mentioned, she's just a great villain and I still want her to win despite how bad she is because her motivation is THAT good! (if you haven't watched Epithet Erased then I won't spoil but it's a great show)
@dannyfoxboi I mean, the Catra slander isn’t that insane. People have a right to be critical of how she was written. Catra stans are known to be vicious to critics so it’s important for people to feel like they can freely voice their opinions in a video like this. I’m not a huge fan of how Amity was written either (though I’d say she was written better than Catra) but I haven’t seen her stans behave nearly as poorly towards critics.
I would like to see a story where the victim doesn’t forgive their abuser/bully. Like it makes no sense how a character will be bullied by another for years on end and then suddenly accept an apology on the spot. People love giving the abuser/bully some type of reasoning to explain their actions but guess what, it doesn’t matter! Just bc life sucked for you, or you didn’t get what you wanted, doesn’t excuse the way you treat others. An example: Bakugou from MHA. This one in particular pisses me off bc of the “justification” behind his actions aren’t event like “oh I have a bad family”. He has simultaneously a superiority and inferiority complex? That’s the reason why he told a kid to kill himself and bullied him relentlessly for a decade, really? And then Midoriya just takes it?! It pisses me off fr fr, especially as a person who was bullied before, it isn’t realistic. And I know, talking about realism in a world where a dude’s head can be a Windex bottle is kinda redundant, but this isn’t just with him. All the time this seems to happen in media, the bully character gets the green light by their victim for all the damage they’ve done with no consequences. I just want to see a series where the victim is rightfully angry at their abuser for pulling their “oh I’m sorry for how I treated you but, it was because I was a sad boi”.
people who like endeavor expecting todoroki to just forgive him after all the trauma because they think endeavor is badass, or just because endeavor is trying to "make amends" means todoroki should forgive him
I personally think I can cope with most characters as their own thing but I've found my opinion on them is greatly affected by how the fandom treats them. A big example for me is Edelgard from Fire Emblem. I can appreciate she's an interesting and charismatic character with dubious morals, and I find that intriguing, but the way her fandom treats her like she did nothing wrong and apply their own biases to the current state of the world to justify her actions have always felt wrong to me. And then I became and Edelgard hater because I felt I had to compensate for how much I disagree with her beliefs and actions. On the flip side, I actually love Rhea more now because the fandom is so toxic when discussing her. She's probably one of the most interesting and well designed characters in the entire franchise but people reduce her to the evil religious antagonist which I think isn't fair. Is she also morally grey and does some shitty things? Yes, absolutely! But the juxtaposition between the two characters makes me a Rhea defender largely due to her unpopularity. I think it's because I empathise with being largely hated irl for stupid reasons while shitty people who have done awful things get to be praised and well liked.
Wish I could've seen that part of the Edelgard "debate". I was only really exposed to people that hated her for what she did wrong while conveniently ignoring or downplaying what the other characters did wrong. I heard people talking about how annoying the Edelgard stans were, but never actually saw them. For me though, this only lowered my opinion of the fandom. Rhea stans and Edelgard stans being dumb doesn't ruin the characters for me, but I understand your position.
I’ve never seen this but I agree - every time someone says I should watch something underrated I’m intrigued, and if it’s popular I’m just automatically off put by it. For some reason Pokémon started this.
@@kiwikarp9509 My personal position is that the need for change doesn't justify the tragedy of war and it's pretty hypothetical that she's trying to establish a meritocracy when all of her close soldiers and the people she puts in position of authority are majority nobles and enforced a dictatorship where she just has to hope the next dictator isn't evil. Also meritocracies have a bunch of issues such as busses in what is and isn't more valid and worthy of reward but also how ableism would be rife within it but that's besides the point. I think a large factor in the game and its reception is that it's trying to be political without understanding politics. I had a really in depth conversation on the ShitpostEmblem subreddit of all places where basically we agreed the writers didn't research enough when writing the story. For example, they wanted the game to feature a sort of "any side can be right or wrong" attitude but they still wanted their characters to be likable and merchandise-able so they ended up creating a separate race of subhumans who are inherently evil and tick every box in the anti-semetic allegory bingo card (control the world secretly, disguise themselves as human, kidnap children, perform blood rituals, have tech far beyond the main world, killed god, trying to destroy civilisation, ancient and immortal, and need to be killed off completely to save the world.) They drew a comparison to Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood/Manga where Mustang wants to become the Fuhrer. He wants to start a revolution but doesn't want to change the system which allowed for the corruption to form and instead takes on the role himself just hoping nobody bad takes over after him while they kill the evil corrupt people. I think part of why I gravitate personally towards Azure Moon is that it's not entirely clear what Dimitri's goals are. He becomes the King of Fodlan pretty much by accident and the majority of the route is focused on the characters rather than the politics of it all, which is Fire Emblem's strong suit. I think my personal biases formed because when I see Edelgard I just see the false revolutionary figure which was crafted. Both within the narrative and in the fandom. And hearing her claims of how Rhea and the church caused ever problem in Fodlan despite the DLC library confirming it was pretty much all the Agarthans who did it while then church tried to maintain peace has left me very frustrated.
@@BaobhanloreArt hypocritical might have been the word you were looking for in that first paragraph, not hypothetical. But while I agree with the rationale that her wanting to instate a meritocracy to break the stranglehold Crests and Castes have on Fodlan, and then going "By the way, these are my former classmates from when I was attending officers school, they're your generals now." is a bit how ya' goin', at the same time, she knows she can trust those people, they aren't going to jockey for political clout or position or anything of the sort. They're her friends, they believe in her ideals, and they've proven themselves to be worthy of the positions she places them in, in her eyes, and the end slides do show that after the war, most of them do retire from military life to pursue their personal goals, opening those positions up to soldiers who would have earned them. Also, a dictatorship? Hardly, Edelgard was the heir to the Adrestian throne already, she would have been the next Empress regardless, she convinced her father to abdicate his throne to her early, and barring her marrying a male Byleth and bearing a child of her own after the war, she has full authority to chose her next heir, ensuring that whoever does succeed her will share her ideals and methods. I do agree, she's a bit too obviously crafted, but I think that might stem from early development of the game where Crimson flower and Silver snow where the only routes available to the player. They definitely felt like the routes where most of the effort went.
2:36 ain't no way she compared catra to amity, amity isnt a "character who is bad but are justified by love/sad backstory" like catra is, her actions are not justified by love/sad backstory bs, she has actual personality/depth and character.
Right?! Amity has done pretty bad things, especially to Willow, and while her "friends" (meaning Boscha and the other "mean girls") as well as what her parents taught her are partially to blame for how she acted it's not like the show made it so Willow immediately forgave her after hearing of Amity's situation, It still took a lot of time for them to be on good terms again, let alone being friends. In terms of romance Luz only became interested in Amity like that after she stopped being a bully, in the situation where Amity continued to treat people the way she did, they would have never dated. Meanwhile, Catra had literally tried to murder Adora and her friends on multiple occasions, so I don't think the two are comparable (not to say that people can't write enemies to lovers or toxic relationships, but that it's very easy to mess up and I don't think She-re handled it well)
Catra is worse, and you don’t have to like her but she is “has a actual personality/depth and character”? Again you’re free to dislike her but y’all don’t make a good point by strawmanning…
You did not just call Donkey the comic relief only character, he had real emotional moments with shrek and actually contributed to the plot and character development. I will die on this hill
Basically, characters ruined by their fans/fandoms I don't know if this counts, but I used to really like a popular character in my Fandom until my toxic friend started to really like her too. She would argue with me because she though this character was the best in all the franchise while I thought she was a decent character, but still had other characters I liked. It drove me crazy and got me so mad that I can't tolerate the character anymore
The type of character that I can’t stand is the “Young Sheldon” character. A young character that is portrayed to be actually intelligent, but to the reader or audience, they sound like an ordinary kid that thinks their smart because they use big words.
to me, i thought that was kinda the point of young sheldon. the fact that while he seems "smart", at the end of the day, he's still just a kid. i haven't finished the show but for example there's another smart girl named paige and sheldon gets really mad that there's another young smart person like him, so he doesn't feel special anymore. he throws a tantrum and flips a chess board and stuff, showing that while he may be more intelligent than other kids and adults around him he's still not mentally or emotionally mature yet as he's like 9. also him relying on his mom a lot and crying when his dad scolds him shows a more child-like side to him.
Young Sheldon is intentionally annoying. Nobody likes him at all in the show. But I agree, that character trope is insanely annoying when the other characters praise them.
The tough, bratty, mean girl. Growing up, I felt ashamed of being feminine because I was surrounded by people who told me my female traits made me weak and treated me like I was the one others had to look out for. In was too nice and nurturing to know when someone is taking advantage of me and too weak to "get the job done". I hated that about myself, that I am soft and like statistical girly stuff like dresses, pink, and princesses, unlike my tougher sisters and extended family. Even now, I fight shame that I want to be a mother. So one of the things that when I was little that really rub me the wrong way was the tough female character that "isn't like those sassy girls, but can run with the boys". I think in western media to combat weak female characters we make female characters more mascilne, but that doesn't fix the problem, that's just proving that to be tough you have to be mascline. Which, is crap, you can be tough both in feminity or masclentity. We need kick-butt masculine female representation of female characters, but we also need females who like to paint their nails, and that doesn't make them weak. I hate when a female character is supposed to be tough by being mean and scandalous; I mean, does being a jerk all the time mean you are tough? No, it just makes you unlikeable. Now, as a writer, I focus heavily on my female characters and do not write tropes but write people to represent all forms of feminity. Us girls should be lifting each other up, not tearing down. Like girl, love yourself.
Characters who are so obviously narcissistic and cruel but everyone in the setting always laughs it off and doesn't take it seriously. An example would be Yae from Genshin Impact. Raquelle from Life in the Dreamhouse is obviously exempt from this. Because it's Raquelle.
YOU’RE SO RIGHT. Like the only (non-NPC) character who reacts to Yae’s bs accordingly is Gorou, and his genuine fear of her is played off as a joke. Like the dude freaks out every time her name is so much mentioned and… it’s supposed to be funny? I can honestly say the same for Kaeya-bringing up his brother’s trauma every time something doesn’t go his way, treating others like they’re less-than, antagonizing almost everyone he talks to. There’s a part (in a story quest, I think?) where he insults Diluc for no reason right in front of the Traveler, and yet they still like him?? Genshin can have some amazing writing, but when it fails it fails HARD
@@PowerSpirit50 YES. I genuinely like Xingqiu, but it’s so uncomfortable when he does that, literally endangering Chongyun for the sake of laughs. Maybe he doesn’t understand the severity of it, but still, dude
It's a bit uncomfortable for me, because people treat Sara and Signora as some sort of unforgivable monsters, yet worship Raiden and Yae because...I guess, they're "hot"?
@@PowerSpirit50 Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Xingqiu is supposed to be Chongyun's friend, but is constantly manipulating him (giving him fake sources for finding spirits to exorcise, even though he knows it's a big deal to him), and even outright endangering him? Like the constant feeding him chilli peppers to try and mess with his yang spirit is like... not okay? We can see from Chongyun's hangout that it's genuinely dangerous for him, making him sick and putting him in obvious pain. Yet Xingqiu, who's SUPPOSED to be his best friend, and care a lot about "chivalry" is constantly trying to aggravate it for laughs. I like their dynamic.... just not that bit.
Here's some other ones: 1. Anti-heroes. I don't exactly hate it, but it gets very repetitive tbh. The problem is not with the concept, but more of how people tend to see and view them. Most of the time when people are describing "morally grey character" it just comes off as pretty edgy and mysterious. One of my problems with anti-heroes is how often they're just "I hate what I'm doing, I'm so depressed and I don't need anyone in my life, gfy..". Like, really, I want an anti-hero who is an actual goofball with dark motives, but is still pretty vibrant and cheerful as a person. Let them be actually insane in an anti-heroic fashion, don't make them another gloomy dude in cape with fedora that hides his eyes, because there's a scar on one of them lol. Greed ifrom FMA:B s one of my favourite anime characters, but I'd say that he leans more into hero category by the end of the story. 2. "Oh, he has slaves, b-but he is nice to them!". Slave owner is a slave owner🤷 3. Yandere characters who are usually author's love insert. Stalkerish behaviour is not cute, not funny, not attractive(neither sexually, nor romantically, nor platonically). You would NEVER want someone who is obsessed over you and threatens to kill both you and themselves if you tell them that you want some privacy. 4. Shy characters who are sooo innocent and sooo pure in their late 20s that they don't even know where babies come from. 5. 5000 year old adult locked in a body of a child who, apparently, for some reason, has a personality of a toddler as well. 6. Siblings written by people with no siblings. 7. Female villains who can't be full on villains, because they're either: 1) motherly and caring inside, 2) loli demon tsunderes who are just "a bit" rude, or 3) victims of abuse, and abuse victims can't be evil 8. More about story, but I DESPISE when character being emotional is portrayed as weakness or a problem. In fact, strong emotions symbolise strength much more than their absence because they actually help person to understand themselves and how they feel, instead of making them a walking rock with flat face
1. Deadpool is best example of an anti-hero who doesn't edgy that much and Batman should be the only one who keeps consistently being distant (just add in the part where he's actually good to the innocent or suffering). 2. "It's fer- fer economic rites!" 3. Yandere characters have the potential to be good. As villains. Have a whole crew have to deal with one student and calculate a way to get them punished for their horrible crimes against their friends.
Oh Yukako from jjba is such a good example of a yandere that really puts me off. You're telling me koichi just got over the fact that she kidnapped him, tried to kill him, force Feed him paper wrapped asparagus, built an electric chair, was extremely creepy all around and he was apparently in love with her??? I loved part 4 but I just could not help but be put off by the fact that they started dating at least 5 days after all of THAT went down. Also the writer apparently based parts of her character on his wife.
I absolutely despise the 1,000 year old loli trope as well. I don’t care that they’re well above 18+, why tf is it necessary for them to act and/or look like a effing child!? I have a fantasy story concept thingy where one of the races, fairies, stop physically aging at a one point so they end up looking far younger then they actually are. Except I made them stop physically aging at 20 so they still look youthful but also look like adults, which is something I wish more people did
4:28 anyone else find it kind of annoying that the case of the Prince Nadine becoming a frog is more because he was tricked than it was because he is necessarily greedy. Dr Facilier starts by calling his act a “Louisiana Parlor Trick” and Nadine went along with it. That’s like if I was ill-fated for picking the queen of hearts in a magic trick.
Hey, don't forgot about those 0.01% comedic roles that are great. Like pietro in puss last wish, or donkey in shrek (the first one only though. Ruined in every movie after)
6:12 AY YOU TAKE KRONK OFF THERE RIGHT NOW. KRONK IS PERFECT AND DESERVES TO BE _PRAISED_ (If you can't tell, this is satire. Really though, is Kronk very stupid? Like maybe in some ways, but he does genuinely have "Why does he know this?" moments.) Oh, you know what trope I DO hate, though? The token ""Autistic"" characters. Doesnt even have to be actually confirmed as autistic, like Sheldon from the Big Bang. They're just annoying, all you do by adding them is making people think that autism means someone is super smart and knows everything except basic human interactions. Autism in stories can be done right, they just dont do it right. In the last episode of S1 of "Bee and Puppycat", they introduce what I think is a good version of this - the self-proclaimed top of the class, Cooking Prince. Like, he's got all the PARTS of the trope, where he's annoying and has no friends, is smart, whatever, but _isnt_ annoying to the audience - at least not to me. He might get ruined in season two since I havent watched that, but in his introduction I actually quite like him.
KRONK IS THE BEST I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU Also, I think the best versions of the autistic character trope are always the accidental ones. Like Alhaitham from Genshin Impact. Bro wears soundproof earpieces and is literally incapable of being anything but blunt with his words. And the entire reason why he bothered to help in the big quest in his region is that his job was threatened by the circumstances and he didn't want his routine to be ruined by that. He's intelligent but not completely socially inept, he has an actual personality and isn't completely emotionless, and he's actually interesting in comparison to the Young Sheldon type characters. And the twist? Hoyoverse absolutely did NOT intend to make this guy so autistic. He just is, and he's better than 90% of confirmed autistic characters. Genshin has plenty of other characters that are accidental representation, and none of them are reduced to being the token autistic or token gay character. Their traits are just there, they're not the focus of their stories, and the characters are better for it! Anyways. Sorry for the paragraph. I am a huge Genshin fan for obvious reasons and will take any opportunity I can get to ramble about the incredibly diverse set of characters in the game.
Kronk is very specialised in what he's good at, he doesn't have great general intelligence BUT he can speak fluent squirrel, cook extremely well, is an excellent camper and can teach children well.
What is a bad example of a bad super strong dumb character?? They always end up being lovable doofuses but also a character you can count on. Gronk, Todo, Okuyasu, Inosuke, Goku, Wreck it Ralph… I don’t get the hate
Kronk is amazing. We all agree, bud. Also, as a person on the autism scale, yea, the "autistic person with no friends bc everyone considers them annoying or creepy" trope is super annoying and sad to see.
The "only funny" character is great if that's played up as a coping mechanism. Donkey from Shrek for example is always funny (at least in the first movie) because he uses humour to cope with his loneliness. It's the only way he can connect with people because nobody otherwise wants to talk with a talking donkey. He's a reject, just like Shrek, and that's why Shrek feels for him. Shrek became the total opposite of Donkey; instead of attempting to cope by reeling people in with humour, Shrek went the opposite route and decided to convince himself being lonely is normal and ok; which is fine if it is for him, but Shrek's arc is about recognizing he's always wanted more than just him alone in his swamp; and that being alone in his swamp was about controlling his little world more than it was about satisfaction. Donkey gets sad when Shrek tells him to leave, but before finally making it clear, Donkey was cracking jokes and being happy go lucky because he wanted to believe somebody actually wanted to spend time with him.
They also spelt her name wrong I’m not one to point out spelling errors, I make them all the time, but if you’re trying to criticise a character at least get basic facts rights
as a twin i hate the character trope where the twin characters are just copies of one another and cannot stand alone as individual characters. i'm a fraternal twin so i'm slightly biased here, and irl identical twins can have similar personalities sometimes, but no pair of twins are together 24/7. either write two distinct characters or just have one character. pick a side. i also despise when writers make a character's only personality trait be "they're so crazy/mentally ill/(r slur)ed and need to be locked up." this is usually played for laughs. and i'm just like? screw you? i also used to be a special ed kid and only seeing discussion about it be as punchlines in comedy shows is fucked up. learn psychology and have empathy for your fellow human beings, writers.
As a twin, I get that. I enjoy writing and drawing while my brother enjoys photography. We sometimes joke about how he takes pictures and I make pictures. We’re different from each other, but not enough for the “siblings who are polar opposites” trope that I’ve also seen.
I'm a twin too and I feel the same ! I love Fred and George from hp but they're the same character. That's why I love Wiccan and Speed from Marvel, because despite being twins, they have a cleary distinctive personnality
1:21 This criticism personally bothers me because, at least when they first meet again as adults, they get *physically interrupted* by the presence of the Firelights. That was probably their best chance for actually openly communicating, because the other times, they’re either children under high stress situations, or Jinx was led by her only consistent familial figure to believe that her sister hates her.
i never understood people calling frodo whiny like if you were being controlled by the evil lord with the most powerful object that exists im sure youd be like 'man i just wana go home' or literally die or something like the other people who had it before him went fucking nuts or killed people for that thing, like why are we acting like he should have been happy with a fun wizard job thats actually not at all what happened idk
I hate main characters who forgive every villain no matter what they have done and who give endless second chances. I also find morally good characters who say “if you do this I’ll never forgive you” to villains that they have no prior relationship to really annoying. Like if the villain used to be their best friend or family member I understand that they’re saying that the villain has to choose their relationship or the dark path they’re going down but why would an evil overlord who you’ve only ever been a enemy to care if you forgive them. Just once I want a villain to reply “what makes you think I want your forgiveness” or something similar
The example you said where the antagonist and protagonist are in a relationship is literally most of the drama from the Disney show Once Upon a Time. Story book characters are revived in our world and drama comes from having to remember their past lives.
@@ohcrabapples Yeah, but Fairy Tail has many tropes that are bad or handled poorly Like you said the "always forigiving the villain and let them join you" the abusive male gazing that makes Fairy Tail looking like an ecchi, the friendship power that can resolve anything and so on...
This is more of a fandom reaction than a character but I personally can’t stand when a character gets flattened by fans into just a poor little baby who did nothing wrong, especially when they demonize other characters in order to make the original character more pitiable. What’s even worse is when they assign some moral value to it all and accuse people who disagree with them of being morally bankrupt. And many of these characters have flaws that make them more interesting, but nobody ever uses them in an interesting way because they’re so obsessed with making them the victim in literally any situation.
That's half of fandom immersion with characters i had experienced too, but ngl I also have my biases and sometimes I kinda fall into that too C: I'm sorry
There's also the inverse. I hate it when characters, especially female characters, are villainized while the male characters around them who do the exact same things the female characters get hate for are glorified. It's just... urgh...
I personally love characters that are doormats haha; if the writer is clever, a character's passive nature means that they have to approach, resolve, or deal with the consequences of a problem in creative ways. I also feel like there are a lot of characters that are considered pushovers or doormats because they don't match the aggressiveness of their antagonist. Sometimes, it's wiser to step back and let an antagonist face the consequences of their own nasty behavior, ya know? Cinderella is a decent example of all of this. She stays in her lane, sticks to her convictions, takes everything with a quiet dignity, humbly asks for help when she hits a dead end, and depending on the telling, her antagonists are undone by their own bad behavior. She's often used as a classic example of a damsel in distress or a doormat protagonist because she approaches conflict in a traditionally feminine way. I personally want to see more high fem characters in stories tbh
Actually! I'm tempted to try to write a story with no characters! I think it would be a fun challenge to try to create an interesting story with no characters.
I remember a book in school where it showed this one area of land and how it changes through history, showing how it changed from a small settlement in the Stone Age to a busiling city in modern day
"Characters everybody loves despite consistently shit behavior." The moment I saw that I immediately thought of Jade West. Not a book character, but a character nonetheless. Don't get me wrong, I love the character, but I never understood the fandoms willingness to absolve her of ANY bad behavior or wrong doings that she has committed against other characters.
agreed. i love jade but for some reason so many people think that she's completely innocent and has done nothing wrong, i think it's just because of how many people don't like tori for some reason.
3:43 pisses me off the most because I'm sick of the concept of Mary Sues. That's not Lyse at all. And Princess Peach has always BEEN the character who fits in her role perfectly. In the games, it's as a damsel who needs saving but even sometimes she can DO the saving, in her own ways. And that brings me to my biggest disagreement with a lot of the examples of "character types/personalities" people dislike. They're all completely misinterpreting characters most of the time.
Harry Potter is definitely not spineless. He stopped "taking it" at home by book 3, and spoke up against people being terrible at Hogwarts, too, be they teacher or student. (And when he didn't, it was because the timing was bad.)
9:19 FINALLY PEOPLE TOUCH THIS!! I hate the writers that use trauma as an excuse for the character’s actions instead of an explanation for the character’s action.
Bad boy who is only nice for his significant other and will hurt/be mean to anyone else no questions asked. Would return to doing bad things if his s/o was hurt or dies. That's just an awful representation of what a relationship should be like
In general it's the nonchalant "idc if I hurt you unless ur a woman im attracted to" trope is imo to normalize and accept this behavior in males. They want us to accept d1ckhead guys who are a huge red flag
in my opinion: the "I am very powerful but I'm still weak" You know, characters that with their power are DEFINITELY the strongest, yet in battle they just... do basic stuff or play support A couple examples would be magicians in games/movies that have no/barely any limit to their power, characters that were once near impossible to defeat in battle and somehow got powercrept and ofcourse the classic: "Villain when he is final boss vs villain when playable character" it ruins all the previous built up tension, I understand they don't want to make them unbeatable, sure, but some truly overdo it
2:48 I feel like Amity doesn't fit that trope because she wasn't just immediately forgiven and her actions before definitely weren't justified. You can see her slowly be influenced by Luz overtime and it's not like the people she bullied immediately forgave her once she became friends with Luz. Willow took time to properly forgive Amity and even after that, Amity still sometimes leaned into her old habits of thinking that Willow was a weak witch. The way she acted before were never justified and were always shown as something she deeply regretted.
She even says herself that Willow shouldn’t forgive it her immediately and Willow responded by saying that she need more time. I think it’s that’s a perfectly realistic and even educational way of doing it. It teaches kids that not all wounds heal immediately even with time they aren’t entirely fixed.
To be honest I find it really funny how a lot of these actually fit into Miles Edgeworth's character, yet he did actually become a good character. Sure, he was a bit of an asshole in the first game for a bit, but then we figured out that he was an asshole because that's how von Karma brought him up. That's how von Karma taught him to be, because truly he was the asshole, not Edgeworth. Edgeworth was how he was because of trauma, not just to be an asshole enemy character who just hates everyone. Even Franziska was such a bitch when she was first introduced because, guess what? It was von Karma's evil little shenanigans again. Manfred was created to be hateable, you aren't supposed to like him, meanwhile Edgeworth and Franziska were just the victims of the trauma von Karma afflicted onto them. That's why even though Edgeworth does start of as asshole you actually begin to like him later on. Are you kidding me did I really just write an essay on why Edgeworth is a likeable character
@@mimolettemoon1790 Yeah, today I was at the beach and I asked my sister "Hey, have you heard of Ace Attorney?" and she just said that it 'better not be one of those anime things you've been obsessed with lately' and I felt SO called out. Not to mention the fact that everyone I've asked has said no (except for my cousin and I worship her for that)
I can see where the 'villain love interests' person is coming from with Catra (even if I feel differently myself), but Amity?? She was never even a villain, just a girl who was a bit mean. And she changed pretty quickly once she and Luz started to become friends.
I utterly DESPISE asshole characters. Like, for example, while Jax from TADC does make me laugh, I hate him as a character and hope he abstracts. Edit: 5:39 That's a good point, though. Like, I REALLY liked when Jax plucked off Zooble's arm to use it as a back scratcher, and then Zooble just fucking STRANGLED him with that same arm (since apparently they retain control of limbs that have been detached)! XD So, maybe he would be more bearable if he suffered consequences more often.
I dislike that every intelectually gifted character I see is extremely gifted and emotionless like a robot. Not everyone intelectually gifted is extremely gifted and emotionless. There are different kinds of giftedness and sometimes the person with giftedness doesn't even want to be treated like a robot. Anais is the best Intelectually gifted character I'd ever seen in cartoons so far.
“Sassy” characters are SUPER hit-or-miss for me. Often every single thing they say is trying SO hard to be a constructed one-liner it just feels like they’re completely incapable of being relatable and vulnerable and like a real person. The cringe is too much
It makes sense to me. A lot pf the time it’s far more scary not checking something since your mind might immediately jump to the worst conclusion. Plus, in the example that user wrote, there doesn’t seem to be any reason the characters would assume it would be the serial killer aside from paranoia- they don’t know they’re main characters. To a reader it may seem obvious what’s gonna happen but it’s not the main thing your mind would go to if that actually happened in real life. There are uses of the trope that do annoy me but for me it basically comes down to “Is the terrible thing the only reasonable explanation for the sound?” and I feel a lot of the time it isn’t for the characters themselves.
