Now do the taste test with these two loaves. You will find that the refrigerated dough has much more complex flavors, thus, your refrigerator-proofed bread will be the winner when it comes to flavor. The process of cooling the dough (up to 12 hours recommended) simply retards the consumption and conversion of sugars into alcohol and CO2 by the yeast. Instead, bacteria become the dominant processors of enzymes and create more acetic and lactic acid, producing a much better flavor to your bread. They both look great, but I prefer the refrigerated loaf: beautiful ovenspring and tall bread. In terms of the openness of the crumb, I think they are about equal. Very nice!!
Hey Jelle. Thanks for the excellent comment! Would you say the fridge proofing results in a more acidic final bread in the end? Because as far as I know (Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology), lower temperatures will favor the yeast activity and not so much the bacteria. Thanks!
Nice theory Jelle, however, after a decade in business I just have to point out that it may not be necessarily true. In case of using a mature preferment (natural or yeasted) your bread doesn't benefit from being retarded overnight. Nowadays slow rising or retarding in chillers are very popular in business simply because it's easier to schedule bakery production and it has nothing to do with sensoric quality of bread.
When I first started watching your videos I skipped all the 'science' type stuff. Then I went back and started watching everything more carefully and I have learned so much. Using the sample to check the bread rising is a game changer. My sour dough bread baking is now very much more successful! I would love to see a video that uses a mixture wholemeal, rye and spelt flour if that is at all possible!
Thank you Maria! I agree - especially if you want to make recipes work at home. It is very hard with sourdough, you need to have a little bit of understand. I took a note will keep that in mind :-). Thanks!
Thank you for this experiment 🔬 🧪 you are truly the sourdough king ! No joke sourdough baking will never be the same again because of your research 🧐 that is crazy when you think about it , this is a first ! Iv never seen such beautiful loaves of bread we have a few Artesan bakeries here and iv seen nothing like this ! Pure perfection, I can only dream one day I will get to this point! Bravo 👏🏼
Wow Tracey ❤️ - thank you for those nice words, truly appreciated! You will get there, it will just take some time :-). Focus on mastering the fermentation, thats what is most important.
Yay! I have a cranberry and walnut loaf waiting to go in the oven and I’ve been preferring room temp proofing for “sweeter” breads. I’m also going to try spraying my loafs today! Wish me luck
When you removed the lid after 25 minutes of baking, did you also remove the pan of water, and then finish off the bake? Also, did you oil your glass bowl in which you had your first rise?
Hey Bonnie. In the dutch oven I don't use any pan of water, just the dutch oven. But if there was one, you should remove it too yep. Nope - I don't oil the glas bowl. Typically after a few stretch and folds the dough sticks less.
Did you do a follow up on adding gluten flour to boost the protein content? The cold ferment is generally regarded as flavour formation period, did you discern any noticeable taste difference between the two?
Gluten tag! This just shows that although there are some differences, they are not that significant. But this experiment shows that there is flexibility in the process to accommodate to schedule. To me both look equally good, though different. Query: was there a difference in the taste? Sourness of the bread? As always great video! I think I am going to try this recipe. Right now the house it a tiny bit cooler so I can make bread in one day easy. Just have to watch it!
Gluuuuten Tag to Florida. I could not notice a big difference in terms of taste. However - in theory the one proofed in the fridge should have a less sour note to it, as the bacteria sleeps faster the colder it gets. Happy baking!
I can imagine that the warmer dough was more extensible/softer and thus it ran a little "flatter". The colder dough was stiffer and held shape better. But being stiffer, maybe the bubbles couldn't expand as much.
Tried this yesterday. The bread turned out okay , but the short proofing at room temperature had a negative effect on the taste. I will definately continue to proof in the fridge.
I really like your videos. I am still struggling with getting the perfect loaf out. For most times, I will get the spring but not that gorgeous open crumb. I might get one or two or sometimes more, but it still feels rather dense. Still very edible and I"m not sure which process, fermentation or proofing gets these pockets to form. Either way, I'm having tons of fun with all this baking.
Love this experiment! I keep wondering if I need to warm up my dough after the fridge or pop it right in... or is there any difference to counter vs fridge. You are such fun to listen to ( fabulous accent btw, never apologize. )and your enthusiasm is addicting. You release my inner detail nerd too!!!! I am not an engineer, but I like to work like one and enjoy precision. You make it such fun!
Thanks for sharing. :-) If you put the hot Dutch Oven on the stone of your counter, is it on a support against the heat or directly on that stone? Can't that damage?
Thanks for the experiment mate, really great comparison -- although I myself prefer the one with cold proofing, but of course that's a question of personal preference :) One question though: when do you take your sample for the "dough clock"? Do you put it into the jar after you add the starter (i.e. at the end of autolyse), or after the folds? I recon it's the former but I just would like to hear your opinion when it's the best time and method to check the volume growth. Thank you!
I've actually bought some Glutenpulver a few days ago and already tried it for a pizza dough. It did work fine, I could mix it well with the flour and the result were good. Mixed cheap AP 10g protein with the gluten to 14g per 100g flour and it could take much more water. 70% hydration was really easy to work with. Next time I'll bake bread I'll use the gluten for it, too.
@@angelikaradominska5512 for the pizza dough, the taste was ok but I may have to test further. I think it did not taste as good as with a good Caputo flour. Esp. after long fermentation of 3-4 days there was something missing/off. But that also might be something a bias ;)
@@nopenope1 I was waiting for my order from e-shop so I tryed to experiment 😀now I have 15 kg good quality 14.5% of protein Manitoba 0 flour and I no longer need to add gluten 😘
Cold proofing is not just about large holes. If using wholegrain flour in the dough there are enzymes which work on the dough weakening the gluten, but giving much better flavours and a softer mouthfeel. This is particularly evident with sourdough bread where the LABS develop tremendous flavour profiles. The other crucial process going on with cold proofing is that the CO2 trapped in the dough, migrates into the existing vacuoles. Vacuoles are a complex lipid structure which actually attracts the CO2 into itself. This process takes time. So although fermentation is slowed gas migration continues. If I may, it is an anathema to me when I see American bakers promoting Vital Gluten. I'm not sure you did, so this is not aimed at yourself. American flour is amongst the strongest in the world. So strong in fact that cold bulk ferments and cold proofing are often used for the gluten weakening effect because a very strong dough will resist the formation of an open crumb. FWIW I do a mere 15 minute proofing before putting the dough into the fridge and most often bake after 12 hours. It all depends on how warm my kitchen is and what state the dough is in after shaping. A slacker dough, no warm bench time and a shorter period in the fridge. Your 24 hour as a quote of 'most people' is very much on the long side. 12H - 16H is much more near the norm. I'll leave it there. I happened onto your video whilst looking for some tech. info on cold proofing. It's so good to see an able baker promoting such good practice. A great watch - Thanks.
Thank you for this scientific information! I've recently realized advantages of cold long proofing by making classical yeast bread and especially sourdough bread.
@@AlexanderPoznanski Ouch, maybe something got lost in translation there. That sounds like sarcasm. I did not mean to patronise you in any way. Whatever, We can all learn from others. Myself included. And, some of us have been baking for forty years fifteen of them working to bread test kitchen standards. I was going to give you a link to my redacted notes. They would be very useful to someone baking at your level. Fifteen years of testing methods backed up by reading published research papers. The offer is there if you want it. I do not want anything for them. My only interest is better home baking for all. And, yes we all bake a little differently.
@@kevinu.k.7042 Yes, I don't know English well. Thought that it will be sound sophisticated. I've put in my replying words the following meaning: highest grade of thank you. I haven't had the English-spoken environment to know how to say accurately in polite form in different grades of politeness. Now I say simply: thank you!
Cool to see that you and foodgeek seem to complement each other's experiments, given that he just posted a video showing that different proofing durations don’t influence crumb/taste a whole lot. Do you agree with his results?
Thank you! In terms of taste - yep, I agree. In terms of crumb, I disagree. When you proof on point you will have a lot more tiny pockets of air making the bread even fluffier :-). Not even caring about those big bubbles, just the really tiny ones. It really makes a big difference :-)
They look exactly the same. I've done bulk fermentation in the fridge and the counter and it's both great but the fridge I like better. I've proofed my loaves on the counter at room temperature; the fridge gives an awsome oven spring when popping it right out of the fridge to my hot dutch oven and also has much better flavor.
@@the_bread_code Thanks. Is that due to ease of handling for the challenger or for results of the bake? I have a Brovn in the box which arrived today :)
@@the_bread_code I bake at 450F. But I technically have to set it to 475F because it's actually 25 degrees colder than what the oven screen says. I wonder what temperature your oven is? I have two thermometers in mine for checking the real temperature.
@@justryan2070 Mine is always a little hotter than the meter shows. It's good to check this indeed. I typically bake at 230°C all the time. But I am trying something different today.
16:12 I calculated intersection area values of breads using photoshop. Room temperature proofed bread's aread is about 2.5% larger than cold proofed bread.
9:18 😂😂😂 that looks like a meat thermometer! The fridge proofed loaf has the better crumb, in my opinion. Both had good blistering. I consider the large holes to be a defect, however the “webbing” of gelatinized starch in the fridge loaf is good! Thanks.
🤣 I destroyed it! I need to try this again and do 1 hour at room temperature, then move the dough to the fridge. I feel it could have proofed slightly longer.
The reason people proof at cold temperature is that some bacterias, which make the bread sour, prefer colder temperature, between 0 to 15 degrees. So if you’re not having a cold proof, those bacteria might not develop much, making the bread less sour (In sourdough baking, we get to grow the bacteria that like to be around 5-10 degrees C and the one that like around 30 degrees C). Under 15 degrees the yeasts don’t work much, so you should not get much more open crumb with a cold dough. But you get a higher, less large bread, because it spread less when you remove it from the banneton. Which is what happened in your video btw. I’m all for the fridge proof myself considering that I prefer the bunny shape for my slices and I get some more sourness, but it’s not a big loss to not do the cold proof.
I do like the sourdough flavor but less sour. A mild slidly sour taste with whole spelt or whole wheat (20%, rest bread flour, wheat) with butter... so tasty. Fresh, just cooled down enough to slice it... never tasted such a good bread before, and I did make it! :D I'm lazy and do not try to get to perfection. My results still are mixed. When I've got it right I'm very happy with my results. I do prefere to get the starter less sour with feeding it like here and somewhere else it was described. The best results I've got was with a overnight proof and baking it in the morning, only half an hour in the fridge after forming. The overnight proofing went wrong a few times, though. One time overfermentation, one time not long enough.
Hey Franck, thanks for the great comment! I thought the same, but this is not true. A cold retarded dough will not be more sour. Took this from "Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology" p. 165: "The acidity of the sourdough depends on lactic and acetic acid production by lactic acid bacteria [40]. Usually, low temperatures of sourdough fermentation delay the lactic acidification and decrease the time of yeast exposure to high acidity. A low fermentation temperature was suggested as a means to improving the synthesis of CO2 by yeasts" Furthermore they write on the yeast activity: "In bakery practice, refrigeration of dough or sourdough is used to control fermentation. Under the refrigerated conditions, yeasts have to maintain and then to recover their fermentative capacity in a very short period of time (15-30 min). At 4-8°C, many yeast strains continue to ferment at a slow rate and induce a slight increase of the dough volume. The fermentation stops at 4°C." One thing that could improve the taste, is the fact that the metabolism at colder temperatures produces different enzymes adjusting the flavor a little bit. But in this experiment I could not notice a change in taste. Hope this helps.
The Bread Code While I have no doubt that some yeast might still work at low temperature, so does bacterias. It would depends on the type of bacterias in your starter though. As you can see here, Psychrotophs and Mesophiles would be working around 30 degree C, but Psychrophiles works best around 5-10 degree C ecampusontario.pressbooks.pub/microbio/chapter/temperature-and-microbial-growth/ Also, that might no be the case in your fridge, but many bakers using cold proofing try to get their fridge as close as 0 degree C to in fact only grow bacterias, not yeast. Now there are many reason why a study might not find much more acidity after a test, one being that Psychrophiles are more frequent in oceans and cold biomes than on the rest of the planet (but that doesn’t mean they can’t be found at all elsewhere). So I guess that in an experiment where the sourdough starter was never let to grow in a fridge, those bacterias never really multiplied, and therefore were simply not there to make a change for their cold proof experiment. But I keep my starter regularly in the fridge for days after letting it out a day or two out after feeding, so in my case at least, they have time to grow. I can smell the odor of my starter changing and getting more acid over time when in the fridge, so I know acidification is happening, even if don’t have tools to measure it myself. And yes that mean I disagree with science using science here, but also my nose and tongue. Anyway, I’d say, you can measure that yourself. Don’t you have a tool to measure acidity? How about having a starter in the fridge and feeding it every 5-7 days... 14 days? I usually feed mine, let it out for the yeast and some bacteria about 10-12 hours then I place it in the fridge. I then take some of that starter to make a levain (so I grow some of it for a bread) and my actual starter can be in the fridge about 2 weeks like this between feeding, I just take what I need in the meantime (I never have any discard). Well, I’m not asking you to do this experiment, but if you feel like verifying this yourself, then that’s the way to do it.
@@Fuzzi974 awesome - thanks for the reply and the link. Very interesting to read! It just shows how sourdough is much more complex than you might think at the start. That's why I love baking with sourdough :-). It also makes it so challenging, as you have so many parameters to consider.
@@the_bread_code Well, speaking about learning, I added hot (not boiling) water to my flour for hydrolyse today (it's cold in my flat, I tried to see if that would help instead of the oven trick), and apparently if the water is hot, the flour needs a bit more water than usual. I wouldn't be able to give you numbers, I didn't took the temperature precisely or used a scale or measuring glass for how more more water I had to use, bit I think I added 5 to 10% more water than usual. Fist a bit more when I hydrolysed, and then a bit more again when mixing with the levain... I'm not sure if this is because some had evaporated or not.
@@the_bread_code Yes you should for accurate temperature measurements. Your IR gun was set to 0.95 which is the setting for measuring temperature on a black surface.
At the moment i shape and let proof at room temp till the poke test feels about 2/3 ready and put ot in a really cold fridge (2°C). While it cools it finishes proofing and then it is so cold that it is doesn't do much. I started baking when the pandemic started and the last loafes were spot on. Apart from beeing flexible when i bake, i found i get a very nice scent that remindes me of yoghurt, that os lacking with room temp proofing. And i hate big bubbles. Actually i dont understand the hype. How do you spread butter evenly? I like medium sized (~5 - 10mm) and uniform bubbles.
Hey Figilande - oh that's great with the 2/3 ready finger poke test. The cold fridge then will definitely do a great job. You'll pass the finger poke test in the fridge as the dough is still warm and then slowly have cooled down everything, great! Oh I just love a very fluffy bread. To me the perfect bread has a nice crust, somewhat open crumb and is still a little wet, achieved by a high water content.
Not that I ever would, but how much powdered gluten (I happen to have a box in my cupboard) would you recommend be added to 500grams of AP flour for your "Last Recipe You'll Ever Need For Sourdough Bread" ??? The box doesn't state how much gluten per Tsp but just says use 1 tsp.
Nope. They set for 30 minutes right there on my counter. It's cold here (around 21-22°C). In summer times I would probably only wait 15 minutes or else they might form a little bit of a crust on top. The high hydration helps though.
Hallo aus Kanada. I am proofing (proofing or prooving🤔) my loaves for 1 hour at room temperature and then they will go into the fridge at about 5⁰C........I'm a bit confused on total fridge time? Sounds like anywhere from 8 to 24 hours before baking...........do you have any German perfection engineering scientific mastermind hacks on fridge proofing timing? 😁😁 danke schön!!
Thanks! Unfortunately nope with fridge proofing. I would start with 8 hours first. See if you have room to improve, then work yourself up with every loaf until you overproof. It is really hard to say with fridge proofing.
Perfect on point fermentation :-). You can even get a nice open crumb on a bread with less hydration. Check out my no-knead sourdough bread for instance.
Hi there, nice video 😊👍 do you have any video/experiment, explaining how different flour/protein content affect different size increase during bulk fermentation? Thank you
Very interesting. I think the difference is well within the natural variability from one loaf to another. I have baked bread the same day with equal results to cold retarded bread, with just a slight difference in sourness from the longer fermented one. But certainly not a big difference.
@@UnserSindViele The Challenger is quite a bit more expensive than the other options available to me in the US. Lodge makes a round covered baker that I considered because it too has a shallow base as opposed to the deep dutch ovens that many people use. I wanted something that I wouldn’t burn myself on every time I put the dough in. I went with the Challenger because an oval loaf of bread makes more uniform slices than a round loaf. Plus my husband prefers the oval loaf and he gave the approval to spend more. It’s important to make him happy. I can still use the Challenger to bake a round boule but it’s not so easy to bake an oval loaf in the round covered bakers. I have used it twice so far and am quite pleased with the loaves it has produced.
I just used my new Fourneau cloche today and really like it. More like a Quonset hut with a machine fit door. Less chance of burning yourself putting the bread in and taking it out.
actually i like mine with a lot more stuff in it , Butter , milk , honey rather then sour starter , i dont like sour bread , hopefully that doesnt offend you :) What i am not getting and would like to get is those Bubbles , i get a few but not as much , i also dont have Dutch Oven , just simple pan , maybe that is the reason .
For me fridge proofed bread is never rises as well as one proofed at room temp. Don't know why , I have tried it multiple times but it does not have the same oven spring so I will stick to room temp from now.
Yep. A few degrees too cold and it simply doesn't work. That's why I prefer the room temperature proofing. If I don't have time, I like to use the fridge after around an hour at room temperature.
I tried one yesterday , where I took the bread from the fridge and let it sit for about an hour before baking but the oven spring still did not match the room temp proofed bread. So I'm finally done with retarding the bread .!!! Make and bake on the same day is the way to go for me.😃
@@amourelya It's all about finding what works for you and your schedule. I pretty much rely on the fridge to even out all my little inconsistencies and scheduling mishaps :D
@@amourelya Agreed. Try 1 hour proofing at RT then directly into the fridge. Bake the bread when it is cold out of your fridge :-). But yeah, I like RT a lot too.
Ich hab das Experiment gemacht zu Weihnachten, aufgrund des Lockdowns musste ich ein Laib früher backen damit es meine Mutter mitnehmen konnte. Das andere habe ich dann am nächsten Morgen gebacken. Ich bevorzuge eher cold proof über mind 12h im Kühlschrank anstatt Backen am selben Tag.
@@the_bread_code Nach dem kalten proofen behält der Teig schön seine Form und „zergeht“ nicht so dass es am Rand von meinem Gusseisentopf ankommt. Beim scoring hat man mehr Kontrolle darüber. Natürlich würde ich auch ein proofing bei Zimmertemperatur (Proofing Box) machen, allerdings nur wenn ich das Brot am selben Tag backen will/muss wie in meinem Fall. Ich habe beide Laibe abfotografiert. Das Brot meiner Mutter war zum Schluss etwas flacher verglichen zu meinem.
If you want huge holes in your crumb do large folds. Take two wet hands 🙌 and lift a corner of the dough and waggle it whilst expanding it gently- do same on each corner. Wide thin folds will give it to you. It’s annoying if you butter 🧈 your bread though!
I think the room temperature bread is weider than the other one because passing it from the form to the dutchoven the dough was stuck in the form . I never use the cloth over the form, but last week I try to used it and the dough was so stuck that I destroyed the form when I put it in the oven.
I get far more consistent results when I do retard my fermentation in the fridge. I have to have my timing bang on and really pay attention to everything when I'm not using the fridge (I do bulk fermentation in a covered steel bowl so I have to remember to look in on it) and I'm really bad at that so... yeah, fridge. Fermentolyse for half an hour, then stretch and folds every half-hour till the texture is right (I go till it feels as "tight" on the first stretch as it does in the middle or towards the end of the previous stretch-fold), then set the timer for an hour and check on it, if it's getting fat enough (my bowls have volumetric measurements inside) I'll shape the loaves and put them in the fridge to be baked the next day and if it's not, I'll set the timer and check on it in another hour, or if I need sleep or have to run off to work, I chuck it in the fridge, then shape the loaves whenever I get to it. In cases where I've let the bulk fermentation go too far (forgot my timer or left it out overnight) I'll shape it, let it rest an hour in the fridge then bake it and I'm still avoiding frisbees :)
Interesting. Yep - I have been the fridge preferring person too. But in this experiment I was really stunned, the finger poke test really made me ferment exactly on point.
@@the_bread_code I've not had great luck with the finger poke test even on room temperature loaves, I have ended up with a few very tall but underproofed and explodey loaves that way. I follow another sourdough channel where he did some very long retard experiments and so it's quite possible your refrigerated loaf needed four or eight more hours in the fridge to be equivalent to the room temperature one. I used to make a double recipe, split into two loaves, and bake one the next day and the other the day after that and sometimes there were differences and sometimes there weren't, I need to start doing that again now that I'm using the roasting pan cover.
@@bunhelsingslegacy3549 I think the problem is then likely your bulk fermentation. You don't ferment long enough. If you bulk on time, then directly bake, you will still have a somewhat airy crumb :-)
@@the_bread_code You inspired me. I have two bread in the oven. All grain with cranberry, pumpkin seeds and sun seeds. Your bread were gorgeous, hope they were as good as they look. 🙂
@@dmitrysharangovich1200 Then he would had needed to start making them at different times and bake them at the same time. It would not be fair to compare a fresh bread with one which is 16 hours (or something) old.
@@the_bread_code Thank you for the reply. Both loaves were beautiful, and, if they taste equally good , it's nice to know we have a good schedule-management option for this. Also, this does inspire me to experiment more often on my own. I had wondered often about the standard method vs. retarded proof method, but it never occurred to me to just do it both ways and compare the results directly
Ca-n you guide US on what dutch oven that îs? Brand and model. I am very close to The perfect bread but i think i need to Invest more în a US product. 🙂
Can you explain the reason then for a long cold fermentation? What is happening to the bread in the fridge? Is it better for your health with a longer cold fermentation? I do enjoy these videos.
How in the name of sweet little baby Jesus does your dough never ever stick to your fingers? Even after 1h autolyse it will stick. It sticks with 8%, 10% and 12.8% gluten. Water ratio is always exactly 75%. But it will also happily stick like mad at 65% and 60%. Haven't tried it with 50%, because I don't want stones for breads. And I can't do 80%, because I don't want soup for bread, which totally happened once. Heck, it even sticks to counter tops, bowls and the dough scraper. I tried pulling the scraper and fingers quick away from the dough. You know how Slimer from Ghost Busters left a loooong trail of slug where ever he went? Yeah, that's my dough when I pull away quick. I tried 5 different brands of wheat flower. No special gluten pimped up elite flower though. So unless I get my fingers super wet with ever tough on the dough, I'll have more dough on my fingers than on the dough it self. I built my rye starter from the 1150 type. Once I had a healthy amount of activity, I fed the starter with 815 because I can handle the 815 better at a 100% flower/water ratio for the starter. Then I leave the starter to grow over night for roughly 10h. But never mind the starter, the dough sticks like crazy even before I mix in the starter. I swear to the gods of bakery, I am either bewitched or you have soft smooth lotus hands.
Hey Man. Oh noes, sorry to hear! I'd say over the course of bulk fermentation the dough gets lots and lots less sticky. Of course, there is a turning point when you have fermented for too long. This is due to the fact that the dough increases in size, you have less surface area that you touch. Try making a really nice smooth dough ball after you kneaded the dough. Then the coil folds will be a lot easier.
@@the_bread_code No worries mate, it's all fun and games, and I'm totally not raging at the fact that your breads always turn out to be perfect on point. And mine is not. I'll just go and blame the altitude at which I'm living for all the failures.
@@Herr_Vorragender Which altitude is that? Try bulk fermenting on point and then master proofing using the finger poke test. Make sure your starter is active.
why do people what air holes in their bread? Who cares what the bread looks like, how does it taste is all that should matter. This very telling of our society.....would rather eat air holes because it looks cool rather than eat nutritious and filling bread. Something very spiritual about This.