What Did Paul Mean by "Works of the Law"? (w/ Dr. Matthew J. Thomas)

Подписаться 66 тыс.

Просмотров 7 тыс.

50% 1

This video is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For 10% off your first month, use the link, www.faithfulcounseling.com/gos...
What did Paul mean when he talked about "works of the law?" This question has divided interpreters for centuries, specifically in the Protestant discussion of sola fide. When Paul talks about being saved apart from works of the law, does he mean apart from ANY works, or apart from ceremonial works? This question not only caused division in the Reformation, but it has sparked debates between what has become known as the Old and New Perspectives on Paul. While this fight has been primarily exegetical, Dr. Matthew J. Thomas in his landmark work shifts the conversation to ask how did the earliest Christians understand works of the law. His answers are quite revealing, and if you're interested in Pauline studies, patristics, or just want to know what works of the law means, this is for you.
Buy Dr. Thomas' Book: amzn.to/3ihCXAq
All things Gospel Simplicity: www.gospelsimplicity.com
Support Gospel Simplicity:
Patreon: / gospelsimplicity
Merch: gospelsimplicity.creator-spri...
Follow Gospel Simplicity on Social Media:
Facebook: / gospelsimplicity
Instagram: / gospelsimplicity
Twitter: / gsplsimplicity
About our sponsor:
KINDRED exists to encourage more acts of faith. We believe this begins with reclaiming sacred time for God in our daily life. KINDRED Bibles are a beautiful presentation of the biblical books. Sacred scripture is preserved and composed in an approachable and engaging format to support daily prayer, reflection and discernment. Whether you are discovering scripture for the first time or rediscovering it for the 100th time, the time spent with God is time well spent. We invite you to encounter the Bible in a reflective new way. We invite you to experience The Word renewed.
Use promo code GOSPEL10 for 10% off your KINDRED order at: www.kindredapostle.com/
Watch my review of KINDRED’s The Gospel According to Mark at: bit.ly/3rbbhP8
About Gospel Simplicity:
Gospel Simplicity began as a RU-vid channel in a Moody Bible Institute dorm. It was born out of the central conviction that the gospel is really good news, and I wanted to share that with as many people as possible. The channel has grown and changed over time, but that central conviction has never changed. Today, we make content around biblical and theological topics, often interacting with people from across the Christian tradition with the hope of seeking greater unity and introducing people to the beautiful simplicity and transformative power of the gospel, the good news about Jesus.
About the host:
Hey! My name is Austin, and I'm a 22 year old guy who’s passionate about the beautiful simplicity and transformative power of the gospel. I believe that the gospel, the good news about Jesus, is really good news, and I’m out to explore, unpack, and share that good news with as many people as possible. I'm a full blown Bible and Church History nerd that loves getting to dialogue with others about this, learning as much as I can, and then teaching whatever I can. I grew up around Frederick, MD where I eventually ended up working my first job at a church. They made the mistake of letting me try my hand at teaching, and instantly I fell in love. That set me on a path for further education, and I'm currently a student at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, IL, studying theology. On any given day you can find me with my nose in a book or a guitar in my hands. Want to get to know me more? Follow me and say hi on Instagram at: @austin.suggs
Video Stuff:
Camera: Sony a6300
Lens: Sigma 16mm F1.4 amzn.to/2MjssPB
Edited in FCPX
Music:
Bowmans Root - Isaac Joel
*Links in the description may include affiliate links in which I receive a small commission of any purchases you make using that link.

Развлечения

Опубликовано:

1 июн 2021

Ссылка:

Скачать:

Готовим ссылку...

Добавить в:

Мой плейлист

Посмотреть позже

Комментарии : 153

@karatriolo3238 3 года назад

“Works of the law” was also referred to in the Dead Sea scrolls and back up the Catholic church’s interpretation of Paul’s meaning.

@peter_hobbs 3 года назад

@Mario Mene I know there’s a short lecture on RU-vid by Dr John Bergsma about it. Just put in the search: Faith and Works: Works of the Law in the Dead Sea Scrolls

@peter_hobbs 3 года назад

@Mario Mene at 9:50 min Bergsma talks about the Dead Sea scroll in question

@peter_hobbs 3 года назад

My only reservation with Bergsma’s lecture is that he affirms toward the end the adage of salvation by “grace alone” which I actually think can create similar kinds of confusion and problems as “faith alone” beyond a very precise usage of it. Jimmy Akins two books on salvation and justification (one is a short read) have been the most helpful for me personally getting my head around some of these issues.

@daniellennox8804 3 года назад

@@peter_hobbs It is correct to say we are saved by “grace alone” though, without giving credence to the Protestant view of, “faith alone”. We have faith only by God’s grace and any good works we do is by God’s grace.

@peter_hobbs 3 года назад

@@daniellennox8804 I see what you’re saying, and I recognise that grace is essential and has primacy at all stages of our salvation/life, and that it's only the Holy Spirit that can do the work of justifying, cleansing, rebirth and equipping, which is unmerited, BUT I still think it’s preferable to NOT add the word “alone” to grace because i think it could mislead some into thinking that there is no free will, assent, human agency or cooperation necessary, especially after initial justification, but also less so prior to it. Here’s what the Church teaches: The Council of Trent, states: “The beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.” And the Catholic Annex to the Joint Declaration made the following statement: “The working of God’s grace does not exclude human action: God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore we are called to strive (cf. Phil. 2:12ff.). “As soon as the Holy Spirit has initiated his work of regeneration and renewal in us through the Word and the holy sacraments, it is certain that we can and must cooperate by the power of the Holy Spirit . . .” I’d prefer to speak of the unmerited and essential primacy of grace from beginning to end, rather than grace “alone”. But that’s just my opinion.

@bonniejohnstone 3 года назад

Good show. The synergy of Faith and Works. This Orthodox old lady is always happy when people read and study the Church Fathers (Patristics). Growing up, (before I was Orthodox) I was told nothing happened in Christianity from the Apostles until the Reformation. “The Church was dormant until Luther” was the line if you asked about the missing years. People still believe this! So, good for you! Bravo!

@budcurtis4512 Год назад

Matthew Thomas is a great source on this subject matter. He and his book are very enlightening and have been a tremendous help in my understanding of works of the law and works in general as applied to initial justification and final salvation.

@actsapologist1991 3 года назад

Jimmy Akin's understanding of the phrase is: "Any action which one undertakes in an attempt to fulfill the law of Moses."

@HosannaInExcelsis 3 года назад

I think that view is a bit different from that of St Iraneus and St Justin Martyr

@actsapologist1991 3 года назад

@@HosannaInExcelsis : Probably right. But I think the conclusions one draws from either view are the same.

@HosannaInExcelsis 3 года назад

@@actsapologist1991 I don’t think so because the Law of Moses includes the 10 commandments

@actsapologist1991 3 года назад

@@HosannaInExcelsis : You are quite right. That's why Jimmy's theory contains the caveat of "to fulfill the law of Moses." If a person is avoiding stealing and adultery so as fulfill the Law of Moses, then his attempts are a "work of the Law". But if he avoids stealing and adultery because it is contrary to the life which is lived in the Spirit (ie, the law of Christ) then it isn't "works of the law". So the key question becomes: Is the person trying to fulfill the law of Moses for its own sake? (and not just incidentally keeping parts of the law of Moses as a result of living the Christian life) When one focuses on that question, the end result of either view ends up in the same place. Paul is insisting that we aren't saved by being perfect according to the Old Law.

@soulosxpiotov7280 2 года назад

But this is impossible. Romans 2 teaches "fulfilling the law of Moses" - as perfectly, without sin. This is impossible, hence the law of faith, but a right kind of faith, per the Lord's words in Luke 18.

@HosannaInExcelsis 3 года назад

I think Dr. Matthew Thomas's work is just as NT Wright calls it: "theologically explosive". One of the most important contributions to Pauline studies in the last decade

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

It really brings a needed extra layer to this conversation

@HosannaInExcelsis 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity I read his book and I found it to be absolutely fascinating. One of the best guests you have had.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

@@HosannaInExcelsis thanks!

@MrKneeV 3 года назад

"The ritual observance of the Law of Moses as the means and method of being made right with God." Most of what Paul wrote was to refute the heresy of the Judaizers, and most of what he wrote can only be rightly understood in that specific and narrow context. For example, the Epistle to the Romans is specifically a refutation of the Judaizers, and not just "Paul teaching doctrine", and as such is grossly misunderstood by nearly all Protestants/Evangelicals.

@HannahClapham 3 года назад

Your comment is about as helpful as the following: “Yeah, Paul was indeed addressing the Judaizers...and those who are analogous to Judaizers, like Catholics and the Orthodox.”

@MrKneeV 3 года назад

@@HannahClapham It is helpful, and that information has been helpful to many. It is helpful because it is a true statement. Most Protestants/Evangelicals don't realize that that is the actual context of most of what Paul writes. Because they don't understand that, they think that he is saying something different, and a great deal of their theology is based on those misreadings of Paul. You may disagree with that or dislike that, and you are certainly free to believe whatever you'd like.

@HannahClapham 2 года назад

@MrKneeV Thanks for asserting (without evidence) that you were right. I cannot tell you how helpful that was.

@MrKneeV 2 года назад

@@HannahClapham You're welcome. I'm not going to write an essay every time I say something. If you're interested, ask follow-up questions or look into other sources. If you're not, then don't.

@HannahClapham 2 года назад

@MrKneeV No, I don’t expect you to “write an essay” every time you make a comment. But I do expect you to make an argument. I’m not going to wander around all over the place trying to find your argument elsewhere. That makes you utterly dispensable.

@mikeoconnor4590 3 года назад

An excellent discussion on what Paul means by “works of the law “ and the implications on Justification. Great Job Austin!

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it

@charliek2557 3 года назад

Yes! Great stuff Austin!! Excited to watch! I’d be curious to see how his book is.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Hope you enjoy it!

@isaiahkerstetter3142 3 года назад

Please have Jonathan Pageau on to discus ancient cosmology!

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Interviewing him next week!

@isaiahkerstetter3142 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity I'M SO PUMPED, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE EXTENT OF MY ELATION!!!!!!

@thamilkman807 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity nice!!

@danglingondivineladders3994 3 года назад

@@thamilkman807 indeed...

@justanotherlikeyou 3 года назад

Regarding the "duck" analogy, he was referring to Scrooge McDuck from Duck Tales. Great show! Watched it everyday when I was a kid👍

@hellebartelsen8208 3 года назад

Scrooge McDuck wa introduced in the classic Disney comics by Carl Barks looong before Duck Tales, but DT is great too.

@quayscenes 3 года назад

Excellent discussion! I ordered the book.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Glad to hear that!

@adamsmith4195 3 года назад

Sometimes I wonder if the events of the entire 20th century were to get us to a point where we could have conversations that bring the Church back together. We shall see...probably from the other side of death for most of us.

@bjeol 3 года назад

I wonder this as well. Within all traditions I have been seeing faithful followers of Christ as well as faithful followers mere doctrine and agenda. We must grow in maturity to understand the difference. Unity is accomplished through the humility of corporate discipleship to Jesus and mutual submission to one another.

@HannahClapham 3 года назад

Our differences are real and significant. We can come together only when one side or the other changes its mind. That means someone has to rethink some of their most cherished thoughts. It’ll take a higher level of commitment to truth than most possess and a higher level of capability to love those who disagree with us.

@alfredhitchcock45 3 года назад

Faith as faithfulness is a good workaround on the dichotomy

@scottmcloughlin4371 2 года назад

Or the Lt translation "Bona Fides" (Good Faith) which is also a legal term of art, back then and still today. Gr. Pistis is at least both a rhetorical term and a legal term in Aristotle's Greek. I have fun unpacking the Greek and Xref'ing against Plato and Aristotle's use of these terms.

@benpeters4007 3 года назад

Hey Austin! Love your stuff. I’m a Moody grad also. Have you seen about having Dr. Jordan Cooper of Just and Sinner on? I’d be fascinated to hear his thoughts on this.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

I’ve actually already had him on! But I’d be open to having him on again.

@josephcooley4822 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity Dr. Cooper wrote a book on the New Perspective on Paul called The Righteousness of One. He deals with the early reception of “works of the law” in early church fathers from a Lutheran perspective.

@JoshWashington 3 года назад

Jordan Cooper in his book ‘The Righteousness of One: An Evaluation of Early Patristic Soteriology in Light of the New Perspective on Paul’ points out the quotes from Clement and Mathetes pointing out quite rightly they speak of people initially coming to faith. He uses these to argue the early church did not hold New Perspective positions. I disagree because I’ve seen numerous other quotes supporting NPP interpretations from the second century which he either completely missed or simply ignored. fyi. thescripturesays.org/2016/03/27/justification-in-the-early-church-16-the-early-perspective-on-justification/

@vinsvalentin 3 года назад

Would it be possible to have shorter videos of the highlights of these longer videos or maybe timestamps?

@rhwinner 3 года назад

I know what he _didn't_ mean: he didn't mean being a warm, kind, holy, generous soul. The bible is unanimous on this point, whether you look at the ot or the new: being forgiving, compassionate, loving person is a _good_ thing. Now, it doesn't pay for your redemption. That much is clear. But God does weigh these things at the judgement, just as Paul says: we were created for good works.

@alfredhitchcock45 3 года назад

Cooperation and Participation are the operative words for rebuttal

@adamafework2862 2 года назад

Great discussion

@maryemilysmiley6146 3 года назад

As usual Austin gave good direction on questions to clarify, but I'm afraid I wanted to object, motion to strike, non-responsive. I'm not conversant w the concepts of new/old understanding and didn't understand the response. Was there any reference in his studies of early response to Paul to the letter of St. James? I'm Catholic, thought Pelagius' working one's way to heaven was rejected as heresy so really don't understand what the fight is about. I need the idiot's delight translation of this presentation. Austin, how are your Latin classes going? I'm still working on veni, vidi, vici in the faith/works department.

@George-ur8ow 3 года назад

Orthodox theology holds that “works of the law” may be understood both in the narrow, literal sense, and also in a broader sense. Literally, it is the obeying of the Levitical law. In Galatians, St. Paul had as his immediate goal to proclaim that those who believed in Christ were freed from the prescriptions set down in the Old Testament. We can understand the "works of the law" in the broader sense of general demands of external, ritual piety as well - not only in the Temple of old - but in the modern Church we attend. In that instance, the message of Galatians is also addressed directly to both you and me: there are no religious rites or regulations divorced from faith can guarantee us salvation.

@George-ur8ow 3 года назад

@Desire Of All Nations Thanks, but I'll go with the Orthodox and Roman Catholic interpretation of these scriptures (which, from my review, is 100% the same)

@danglingondivineladders3994 3 года назад

great interview, you can never go wrong with patristics.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Glad you enjoyed it!

@adamsmith4195 3 года назад

One thing that struck me about the conversation is the focus on initial justification vs. final salvation. Interesting and, I think helpful, dichotomy. But I think justification is ongoing. There is always mercy with the Lord for those confessing sin and approaching his throne of grace with this justifying faith (i.e., Christians) apart from works. There will come a day when we must give an account for what is done in the body. But even the confession of sin, like the publican who beat his breast, is a sign that the Holy Spirit is at work and that we are responding to Him. And thus even that is a product of the gift we have been given, and, consequently is a work that might be brought out on the Last Day. There is no sense from the text that the publican is being justified initially, that he is being converted there. What the publican does is what Christians should be doing daily. (Side note: pray the daily office!!!)

@javierluyanda8283 3 года назад

Best channel on RU-vid

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Thanks!

@ernestorivas2495 3 года назад

Just subscribed. My best!

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Welcome to the community!

@hectorchavez1589 2 года назад

that's my professor!!

@beowulf.reborn Год назад

"I reply to the argument, then, that *our obedience is necessary for salvation.* It is, therefore, *_a partial cause of our justification._* Many things are necessary which are not a cause and do not justify, as for instance the earth is necessary, and yet it does not justify. If man the sinner wants to be saved, he must necessarily be present, just as he asserts that I must also be present. What Augustine says is true, “He who has created you without you will not save you without you.” *Works are necessary to salvation,* *_but they do not cause salvation,_* *because faith alone gives life.* On account of the hypocrites we must say that good works are necessary to salvation. It is necessary to work. Nevertheless, it does not follow that works save on that account, unless *we understand necessity very clearly as* *_the necessity that there must be an inward and outward salvation or righteousness._* *Works save outwardly, that is, they show evidence that we are righteous and that there is faith in a man which saves inwardly,* as Paul says, 'Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved' [Rom. 10:10]. *Outward salvation shows faith to be present, just as fruit shows a tree to be good."* ~ Martin Luther, THE DISPUTATION CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION

@Alexander-fr1kk 3 года назад

Hey Austin how are you? Did you get Fatima and the books?

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Doing well! Yes, thank you so much!

@msmutola682 3 года назад

There's been much talk about old VS new perspectives on Paul, which I haven't paid much attention to. What's going on? Are they trying to cancel Paul?

@AlexSaavy 3 года назад

Look up NT Wright and the new perspective on Paul. Just a differing view on works and salvation than the typical Protestant one.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Haha, great question. No, no one is trying to cancel Paul (well, at least not in this debate). The question is primarily around what Paul had in mind when he talked about salvation apart from works of the law. As Alex said, NT Wright is a great source for this

@EricAlHarb 3 года назад

To some extent Paul is addressing a mindset. A mechanical mindset where the hurdle is the law. So a person had to find a way, given the strictures of the law, to circumvent it. You can ask Jews, there is actually a commentary on how to fornicate (go to a different town etc) whilst maintaining ones standing with the law. Clearly this mindset is EXACTLY what Jesus is preaching against. He fulfills the law, by being buried and resurrected with Him, we fulfill the law. Having fulfilled the law through participating in His death and resurrection we keep growing by the Grace imparted in the Eucharist and through the healing of confession. We climb the endless ladder of divine ascent ever approaching and never attaining unity with the Most Holy Trinity, by His Grace. A journey without end. In a sense, I feel that latins simply lack the Icons of the east and this contributed to their errors. And by latins I don’t distinguish between Catholics and Protestants. That’s why we need to deal with “works” apart from “faith”. It’s a discussion that was settled in the east a millenia ago. Discipleship is all that matters, and that’s the mind of God that we must attain for salvation. Imagine falling in love and finding your true self everyday for the rest of your life, but only when you wake up and understand the burden of suffering is yours to heal by partaking of Christ’s suffering. You wanna truly live? Then die everyday for your family, friends and the rest of the world. That’s all it takes, He’ll walk with you. Never fear. And guess what? Your life is His plan for you to unite with Him.

@msmutola682 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity Eh! Today, I was just minding my business on Twitter when this tweet by "Rev" Brandan Robertson (They guy who called our Lord a racist) fell on my timeline. "And what if Paul, the early churches biggest enemy, became a “Christian” to stop the Jesus movement from expanding. He took what was primarily a sociopolitical movement and turned it into a religion that mirrored pagan cults. James and Peter resisted him and spoke against him." 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️If I could fill this place with face-palms, I would.

@thinningthecurtain 3 года назад

Lol

@bernardware3190 2 года назад

What’s the name of the kid who said he was going to kill a Christian for wrongdoing? When he said the name, you seemed to recognize the person as someone popular. I think I heard “Jonathan” but I couldn’t make out his last name.

@johnmarshallcrowe9215 3 года назад

Sorry, but this was difficult to listen to as slowly as he spoke and how often he seemed to mumble.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Thanks for the feedback!

@vituzui9070 3 года назад

Good interview. Is Dr. Thomas Catholic or Protestant?

@matthewluisantero5051 3 года назад

Catholic

@michaelstapleton9128 3 года назад

The cartoon duck: Scrooge McDuck

@jamesbarksdale978 Месяц назад

I bought this book in 2021. I guess I should read it. 😏

@alfredhitchcock45 3 года назад

Faithfulness vs Good Works

@adamafework2862 2 года назад

Can you please interview Michael j. Gorman

@beowulf.reborn Год назад

"This is what St. Paul means in many places, where he ascribes so much to faith, that he says: Justus ex fide sua vivit, "the righteous man draws his life out of his faith," and faith is that because of which he is counted righteous before God. *If righteousness consists of faith,* *_it is clear that faith fulfils all commandments and makes all works righteous,_* *since no one is justified except he keep all the commands of God.* Again, *the works can justify no one before God* *_without faith._* So utterly and roundly does the Apostle reject works and praise faith, that some have taken offence at his words and say: *"Well, then, we will do no more good works,"* *_although he condemns such men as erring and foolish._* *So men still do.* *_When we reject the great, pretentious works of our time, which are done entirely without faith,_* *they say: Men are only to believe and not to do anything good *... Of course, *if these things are done with such faith that we believe that they please God,* *_then they are praiseworthy,_* *not because of their virtue,* *_but because of such faith,_* *for which all works are of equal value,* as has been said. *_But if we doubt or do not believe that God is gracious to us and is pleased with us,_* or *if we presumptuously expect to please Him only through and after our works, then it is all pure deception,* *_outwardly honoring God, but inwardly setting up self as a false god._* This is the reason why I have so often spoken against the display, magnificence and multitude of such works and have rejected them, *_because it is as clear as day that they are not only done in doubt or without faith,_* but there is not one in a thousand who does not set his confidence upon the works, expecting by them to win God's favor and anticipate His grace; and so they make a fair of them, a thing *which God cannot endure, since He has promised His grace freely, and wills that we* *_begin by trusting that grace, and in it perform all works,_* *whatever they may be."* ~ Martin Luther, A Treatise on Good Works, IX

@geoffrobinson 3 года назад

There’s plenty of reasons, textually, to see that works of the Law referred to the totality of the Torah. Moral/civil/whatever

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Would you say it also refers to good works generally?

@geoffrobinson 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity it referes to all works, good works generally and ceremonial etc. There isn't a single good work that you can conceive of that isn't covered under the Torah. I would also argue, probably more controversially, that the civil/ceremonial/moral distinctions weren't something that the 1st century authors were laboring under. Something was either a command or it wasn't. We came up with the distinctions later to try to explain why some laws remained and some didn't. In that sense, there's some truth to that. Lastly, I would argue focus on the reasoning the apostles employ. Peter says the Torah was a burden they weren't able to bear in Acts 15. Why? Because of ceremonial requirements? No, those were doable, even if they weren't fun. What was impossilbe were things like loving the Lord with all your heart. What did Paul why works of the law couldn't justify? Because you can't be perfect. That's the moral dimensions of the law. Anyone who doesn't realize this doesn't understand our sinfulness & God's holiness, frankly.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

@@geoffrobinson I’d agree with the distinction of civil ceremonial and moral being foreign to the Hebrew text. Defined generally, I can see everything falling under Torah, if you summarize it as Jesus does with love of God and neighbor. However, I don’t think that quite answers the Old/New questions. One could have a general view, but claim Paul was getting at something more specific here. Lastly, I might add that it’s a bold statement to say that not agreeing with this view means you don’t understand God’s holiness as that would by consequent mean, per the conclusions of Dr. Thomas’ study, none of the apostolic fathers understand God’s holiness

@geoffrobinson 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity // Lastly, I might add that it’s a bold statement to say that not agreeing with this view means you don’t understand God’s holiness as that would by consequent mean, per the conclusions of Dr. Thomas’ study, none of the apostolic fathers understand God’s holiness// Well, let me back it up. If you think the problem with why you can't be declared righteous before God is because "works of the Torah" aren't applicable anymore, you really don't understand your sinfulness and God's holiness well enough. The reason why Torah works don't justify is that they impose God's moral standards. I'm not saying I'm better than the apostolic fathers, but we are in a position where we have a few thousand years to reflect on the matter so we don't have to repeat errors they have made.

@matthewluisantero5051 3 года назад

But would you not agree that just because the totality of the Torah, which includes the Moral law in general, does not play a part in man's righteous standng before God, it would be a non sequitur to reason from that to saying that specific aspects of the moral law do not play a part in determining man's justification? Jimmy Akin uses the analogy of water and diet coke: just because diet coke is not necessary for your diet/living a healthy life, doesn't mean water, which is one of the ingredients of diet coke, is not necessary for living a healthy life.

@someguyoverthere3275 3 года назад

Ok...let's see how he does.

@P2Slim 3 года назад

Dope Matt asked himself "is what I'm telling this kid true"

@alexjurado6029 3 года назад

I’m only 12 minutes into watching this video, and I’m just hoping James White sees this. Lol.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

He’s always welcome to make responses to any of my interviews or videos

@alexjurado6029 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity God bless you, Austin! This is a fantastic video with a great guest.

@1cor69 3 года назад

Answer GRACE at 50min. I think this is just like #of religious rituals to be right with God.

@BenB23. 2 года назад

Interesting Dr. Jordan B Cooper came to the opposite conclusion in his work ill have to read the fathers more I guess

@isaachess19 3 года назад

Is Dr. Thomas Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant? I honestly can't tell. This is just for my idle curiosity.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Haha, this was the first question I asked him before the interview! I was especially confused because he teaches at both a Protestant and a Catholic university. He converted to Catholicism from Protestantism while writing his dissertation

@isaachess19 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity that makes sense. He seems to talk like a Catholic and Protestant at the same time, which makes sense given his background.

@deeljr 3 года назад

I was very intrigued by this title but I absolutely cannot follow this. I’m enjoying your channel though.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Sorry to hear that this one was difficult to follow. I’d love to know what I could do differently to help with that! I’m glad you’re enjoying the channel in general

@jamesbarksdale978 Месяц назад

I saw another comment similar to this one. I had no problem, but guess we're all different.

@SilouanSea 3 года назад

It seems to me that Dr. Thomas is simply using Orthodox exegesis to interpret St. Paul.

@nenabunena 3 года назад

huh? lutther/calvin is old perspective? isn't that new perspective? it's only 500 yrs old, wouldn't the perspective of the early Church Fathers be the old perspective?

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

It is all a bit confusing, but in the scholarly realm, Calvin/Luther are called Old Perspective, and the school flowing out of EP Sanders is called New Perspective. Dr. Thomas is comparing that with what he calls “Early Perspectives” referring to the apostolic fathers

@JoshWashington 3 года назад

Irony. Quoting Thomas, “In summary, the early perspectives on works of the law are found to align far more closely with the so-called “new” perspective than the “old” perspective, particularly with respect to the meaning and significance of these works. On these issues, the alignment between early and new perspectives is such that one can regard the “new” perspective as, in reality, the old perspective, while what we identify as the “old” perspective represents a genuine theological novum in relation to the early Christian tradition.” (p226)

@myrddingwynedd2751 8 месяцев назад

This is my understanding. Since all have broken the law, none can be acquitted by keeping it. Jesus Christ, therefore, dies for those who have broken the law to restore our relationship with God. This opens up the new covenant in Christ's blood, which is a relationship not based on keeping the law but on faith, hope, and charity. Faith in the cross pardons sins. Hope awaits and holds onto, through trial and tribulation, the salvation promised through faith. And love fulfils the law and holds all three together. Love is expressed in action and also refrains from breaking moral law out of love for God and neighbour. If one does not act out of love and assumes faith alone without hope and love, then one negates the new covenant in Christ's blood, which is itself an act of love. You can not be with Christ if you don't act like Christ, and believing that his sacrifice alone is sufficient for salvation negates the necessity to act in love, which violates the new covenant, which is a covenant of blood shed for sinners out of love. Faith, hope, and love abide, but the greatest of these is love. Corinthians 1:13 explains it in more detail. Christianity at its heart is a religion of love. Faith alone is wrong.

@CatholicWithaBiblePodcast 3 года назад

The idiom is going down rabbit holes, not rabbit trails. Not important, but wanted to make you aware.

@EpoRose1 3 года назад

(Referring to the White Rabbit of Alice in Wonderland!)

@George-ur8ow 3 года назад

Treading trodden trails, for a long, long time

@eliasn.477 3 года назад

Wait until he’s gonna interpret Paul in light of Marcion. It’s gonna make more sense than even these new or old perspectives.

@George-ur8ow 3 года назад

Marcion was one of the first great heretics, his viewpoint and theology was rejected 1,800 years ago.

@eliasn.477 3 года назад

@@George-ur8ow But he makes Paul way more clear and coherent, frankly.

@zekdom 3 года назад

Just curious, how does Marcion make Paul more coherent?

@thejohn17project15 3 года назад

So what is interesting about this is that the phrase in Romans "under the law" and in Galatians " works of the law" have been incorrectly interpreted from the Greek. C.E.B. Cranfield discusses this in his commentary on Romans discusses how in the Greek there are no words for legalism, legalistic, or legalist. So taking the original language within context it should read more accurately translated as the following. 16 even so, we have come to realize that a person is not declared righteous by God on the ground of his legalistic observance of Torah commands, but through the Messiah Yeshua’s trusting faithfulness. Therefore, we too have put our trust in Messiah Yeshua and become faithful to him, in order that we might be declared righteous on the ground of the Messiah’s trusting faithfulness and not on the ground of our legalistic observance of Torah commands. For on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, no one will be declared righteous. Galatians (Gal) 2:16

@robpadgett27 3 года назад

Thank you! Extremely helpful.

@thejohn17project15 3 года назад

@@robpadgett27 * would encourage you to check out the Complete Jewish Bible. It has the same scholarship as the ESV and the NASB but with the added benefit of Messianic Jewish scholarship as well.

@psbb4him 3 года назад

Smart guy but very hard to follow.

@HannahClapham 3 года назад

Austin- I enjoyed a q & a video you made because I could see the depth of your personal thought. Your interviews leave me a bit muddled because there is very little push back from you. Dr. Thomas here tells us absolutely nothing about critiques he may or may not have received from McGrath or Moo or Packer, none of whom agree with his pro-NPP stance. Also, how do the early fathers diverge from the NT itself? One can easily get that initial justification is transformative and that judgment is according to works from straight exegesis. But how do we interpret this? Do we even know how the Apostolic Fathers applied it? Nothing I heard in this exchange moves the pendulum one iota toward the New Perspective. It’s a complete wash.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

Thanks for the feedback. I try to be an unobtrusive interviewer who highlights the guests thoughts more than my own. However, I appreciate you bringing up things you would’ve liked highlighted here

@HannahClapham 3 года назад

Austin- My intent was to be helpful rather than critical. You interview way better than I ever could. Unobtrusive is the right way to go when it comes to not interjecting your own opinions much. But softball questions actually make it difficult for the interviewee to get across his or her message. It’s kind of like being in a play. It’s much easier to give richness and subtlety to your own character if the other actors give you something of substance to play off of. Really good interviewers-Tom Snyder, Larry King, Peter Robinson-push back against even those guests with whom they are in full agreement. They expose possible flaws and inconsistencies. They play devil’s advocate. In other words, they give their guest the opportunity to defend themselves against their critics. But also, push back brings greater clarity. If the host has questions that pop up in his own mind, more than likely the audience has some of those same questions. Give your guest the opportunity to explain things that were presented-for whatever reason-too vaguely or ambiguously. You’re doing a great job. Your followers obviously like you and trust you. Keep it up!

@HannahClapham 3 года назад

By the way, NPP is a two-edged sword. Yeah, some of its insights hold potential for bridging ecumenical gaps. But it is also a “gateway drug” for crossing the Tiber. I’ve looked at this divide for a long time. The differences sometimes appear to be insubstantial or even merely semantic. They are not. There is an impasse precisely because the split is insurmountable. You have your choice: you can be a Protestant or you can be a Catholic. There is no mediating position. We won’t come together unless one side capitulates. I love Catholics, and-for the most part-enjoy dialoguing with them. And I have learned many, many things from the exchange. But to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. I cannot even imagine what arguments would or could make me change my mind. The purpose of having an open mind is to close it on something solid: in my case, Protestantism. To be deep(er yet) into history is to cease to ever think about being Catholic (at least in my experience). To reject JBFA is to cease to be Protestant. Conversely, a Catholic could accept it without changing all that much. (Look at high-church Anglicanism; many parishes out-Catholic the Catholics liturgically and sacramentally.) Protestants actually could accept some of the Marian dogmas without losing anything (perpetual virginity and the assumption) and many of the Reformers actually did.

@soulosxpiotov7280 2 года назад

Hello Austin, I trust you're doing well. "Works of law" (God's law, as distinct from the law of Christ and the Mosiac law, "law" was all of God's ordinances) is contrasted against the law of faith. Either God's law is met perfectly (as Christ did), per Romans chapter 2, or it's not - and if its not, then perfect righteousness has to be obtained another way (which you know, per your doctorate), so for us sinners its the law of faith since we cannot meet the works of law. Sorry, didn't watch the whole vid. Anyway, works of law will land a person as far as Paradise. To actually have eternal life (dwelling, fellowshipping and also SEEING the Father face to face - eternal life in Christ) requires to not fall short of God's glory and also "The Doing the Good" (Romans 2:10) - only achieved via union in Christ (again, back to your disertation).

@adamsmith4195 3 года назад

Barclay is the man

@someguyoverthere3275 3 года назад

🤔...this will be interesting to see if he interprets it correctly. Most dont. And even less REALLY understand that Christianity didn't start with a bunch of upset germans ... so, I am hopeful that he understands Paul was not talking about The act of Worship. 🤔....seems like everyone thinks the pattern of Worship that was established with Moses was supposed to be thrown out. ....never mind the transfiguration on the mount and the sending out of 70-72 elders, the bread of life and the stripping of authority from the temple mount... I could go on, but I would only agitate the folks that IRRATIONALLY belive that The Church made by JESUS himself would ever be corrupted by Paganism. ...maybe some other guy's church, but definitely not the one made by Jesus himself.

@someguyoverthere3275 3 года назад

@C people forget there was a schism. And the Ancient Church still stands. And it is a really conundrum to me why people do not choose the faith as given by Christ. Why so many reject his direct gift in favor of a low resolution imitation.

@1Hope4All 3 года назад

If that beautiful Bible is a Catholic one, I'd be glad to purchase it. Otherwise, no, because it's incomplete if it's any of the Protestant versions of the bible.

@GospelSimplicity 3 года назад

It is produced by Catholics, but they’re only single books, so the question of completeness is complicated

@1Hope4All 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity I see. Good to know. So if I wanted to get the book of Romans or one of the Gospels (Saint John's gospel is my favorite), then I could just purchase the one book? As far as completeness, it's not complicated if they have ALL the books but separate. There are study bibles published by Catholics that come in separate books so that's understandable. Are there commentaries in these books? And are they from Catholics?

@1Hope4All 3 года назад

@@GospelSimplicity Hi Austin. I would like to invite you to come to the 11:00am Mass tomorrow at St. John Cantius Church, Sunday, June 6th. It's the Feast of Corpus Christi and we're going to have a Procession after Mass. I thought you would appreciate to experience something different at Mass. We will go outside after Mass and process around the church and into the church yard. We will be reading from Scripture as we process with Jesus in the Monstrance. It will be a different experience for you other than just a Mass. I hope you consider coming at 11:00AM. It will be packed! Don't worry about wearing a mask. I never wear one. Plus, it'll be too hot to wear one. Hope to see you there. 🙏

@Lijahtx210._. Год назад

Eastern Orthodox would say the same thing to Catholic.

@zarnoffa 3 года назад

The Law that Paul speaks of includes the 10 Commandments. Here’s proof: Romans 7:7 “What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”” It’s plainly clear that “You shall not covet” is one of the 10 Commandments, so it’s irrefutable that the Law which Paul speaks of, which we are no longer under, includes the 10 Commandments. Again, we are not under the Law and that includes the 10 Commandments. Most Christians won’t grasp this. They think, if we aren’t under the 10 Commandments, oh no, there is no morality! Please…. Christians follow the Way of the Spirit of Christ, which is Love. This fulfills the Law and even more, because through love you do MORE than the minimal requirements of the Law. Romans 7:6 “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”

@a.kamileon 3 года назад

Thank you for informing!

@EpoRose1 3 года назад

So you’re saying Jesus abolished the Ten Commandments?

@zarnoffa 3 года назад

@@EpoRose1 The Law still stands. But… the Law doesn’t apply to angels and dead people. Read what Paul wrote. I posted the Scripture which is really quite clear. Use your thinker. :)

@zarnoffa 3 года назад

@Desire Of All Nations Was there a moral standard for Adam? Was there a moral standard for the angels? There was no 10 commandments for Abraham… You don’t have any clue what you’re saying. The 10 Commandments are right and true, but Christians are not under the Law. This so clear from Paul. I spelled it out so clearly, you have to be a hater of the Word itself to deny it.

@AllOtherNamesUsed 3 года назад

@@zarnoffa they do hate the word, they’re false brethren who sneak up among you to mislead as they did in Paul’s day spoken of in Galatians, who were pushing for the old elementary works of the law essentially rejecting the wine of the new covenant, ratified by the blood of the Husband on the cross whose death ended the old covenant marriage in fulfillment of its terms in the law (cf Rom 7) which were always conditional according to the text itself. These false ones are on all related channels pushing the same butchered quotes and false teachings in a concerted effort to promote old works of the law. One of their favorites is taking the commandments mentioned in Revelation 14.12 and defining it as the 10 commandments (which includes the Sabbath which was given to Israel of the old covenant as a sign) instead of the commandments Yeshua gave and are spelled out in John’s epistle: “And this is His commandment, that we should (1) believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ; and (2) love one another, as He gave us commandment. And he that keeps His commandments dwells in Him and He in him. And BY THIS we know that He abides in us by the Spirit which He has given to us.” Love covers all the moral commands of the law and 10 commandments and exceeds it since it is not an exhaustive list of do’s and dont’s but rather a summary of the spirit of the law; the Sabbath command is a ritual and not the literal 7th day of creation and was given as a specific sign of the old covenant. These Judaizers and Tel Aviv bots are warring against the new covenant marriage as announced in Jeremiah 31.31ff and they hate the Torah as they endlessly mutilate the text there too and even the prophets like Jeremiah and anyone else standing in the way of their false messiah and masonic temple in Jerusalem shown at the end of the age with the false prophet posing as Elijah renewing the old covenant marriage as expected by the rabbis, which in the Exodus came with the mark of the name of the Lord spiritually sealed in the head and hand of the congregation as symbolized by the tefillin worn over the head/hand mark with the name Shaddai, only this time it will be the lawless one (the law is for the lawless, 1Tim 1.9) idolized as God. _”And their dead bodies will lie on the street of _*_THE GREAT CITY_*_ which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.”_ (Rev 11.8) _”The woman whom you saw is _*_THE GREAT CITY,_*_ which reigns over the kings of the earth.”_ (Rev 17.18) There are deep studies on all this on the blog linked atop my channel.

@bk74w80 3 года назад

Scrooge McDuck. Donald’s uncle 😊

@bk74w80 3 года назад

@Dustin Neely Huey, Dewey and Louie. I used to watch Duck Tales as a kid all the time LOL.

@marriage4life893 3 года назад

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Romans 8:7 Obeying the Father's law given to Moses is a process of sanctification we walk out after deliverance from the Kingdom of Darkness. The children of Israel didn't perform works in order to be saved from Egypt. They were given God's commands after salvation from bondage. We are no longer slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness- Romans 6. Not to be saved but because we are being saved. 1 John 2:16

@alfredhitchcock45 3 года назад

Works of the Law is Jewish