What genre is DOOM?

Подписаться 1,8 млн

Просмотров 375 тыс.

50% 1

Patreon: / ahoy
00:00 Introduction
00:50 How was DOOM originally described?
02:20 DOOM clones
04:33 Quake Killers
6:06 A hypothetical question
12:05 Conclusion
Bibliography
[1] Compute! Magazine, Issue 167, August 1994, p73
[2] The Ultimate Doom, Manual, p5 (id Software / GT Interactive Software 1995)
[3] 'Virtually Real', ST Format, Jan 93, p43
[4] Computer Gaming World, March 1994 (116), p38
[5] Computer Gaming World, November 1994, Doom Toos (feature), p104-114
[6] 3DO Magazine, February 1995, p64
[7] 64 Magazine, Volume 1 1997, p73
[8] Amiga Power, August 1995, p53 (Future)
[9] Computer Gaming World, November 1994, cover
[10] Mean Machines SEGA, September 1995, p12
[11] Mean Machines SEGA, October 96, p56
[12] Computer Gaming World, April 1995, p104-106
[13] Computer Gaming World, May 1995, p94-96
[14] PC Multimedia & Entertainment, April 1996, web.archive.org/web/199706241...
[15] EDGE Supplement, May 1994, p8
[16] Mean Machines SEGA, August 1994, p12
[17] PC Gamer, April 1995, p103
[18] PC Zone, March 1997, p49-50
[19] PC Zone, August 1998, p54
[20] PC Zone, August 1997, Cover & p63
[21] PC Zone, February 1998, p53
[22] PC Zone, March 1999, p98-99
[23] PC Zone, January 1999, p74
[24] PC Zone, February 1999, p13
[25] PC Zone, September 1999, p109
[26] PC Zone, October 2000, p87
[27] PCGames, November 1992, p46
[28] Tilt, September 1992, p58-59
[29] Computer Gaming World, September 1992, p50
[30] PC-Spiele '93, 1992
[31] Masters of Doom, D. Kushner, p89
[32] .info, September 1990, p60
[33] Computer Gaming World, March 1994, p110,112
[34] PC Format, December 1995
[35] Computer and Video Games, January 1994, 104
[36] PC Zone, June 1994, p108
[37] PC Games, August 1996, p62

Игры

Опубликовано:

28 июн 2024

Ссылка:

Скачать:

Готовим ссылку...

Добавить в:

Мой плейлист

Посмотреть позже

Комментарии : 3,5 тыс.

@aaronchua5129 Месяц назад

Clearly Doom is a benchmark test for household appliances

@fus132 Месяц назад

Real

@DinnerForkTongue Месяц назад

And portable appliances, such as phones, PDAs, calculators and pregnancy testers.

@rabidguineapig Месяц назад

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a couch somewhere that can run doom

@shidderalpha2293 Месяц назад

Not just electronics, they've even played it on bacteria

@GreyWolfLeaderTW Месяц назад

Not that far from the truth. Some mad lad programmed a very basic form of Doom on low-powered graphing calculators as a hobby/joke.

@TheDeadmanstrolling Месяц назад

"Doom is an action RPG" is a phrase that deals 2d6 psychic damage

@danieladamczyk4024 Месяц назад

Becouse is true.

@germtm. Месяц назад

technically true for the old Java mobile "ports".

@doomguy19931 Месяц назад

@@germtm. Man i remember playingg the DooM RPG on my flip phone in middle school

@user-ml2bn7xx7e Месяц назад

I wonder if it haves 16 times the detail

@AgentHeroic Месяц назад

If you want a good Doom RPG, DoomRL (Doom Roguelike) is a good start

@Teapose Месяц назад

Fun fact: back in the day, Apogee distributors had what they called a “Shoot-em-up Collection” that I wanted Dad to get me. Immediately he got angry and said “I’m not buying you shooter games.” And I had to go like no, Dad, it’s stuff like Terminal Velocity and Raptor, and I THINK it also had Biohazard, which is what I really wanted. He was like “oh”. Still didn’t get it. Within a couple years we were playing Doom deathmatches AdHoc over a telephone line.

@Yotarian Месяц назад

Oh man... Terminal Velocity and Raptor were awesome.

@Teapose Месяц назад

@@Yotarian TV was my jam, I loved that music, Fury3 was sick too

@Gwunhar Месяц назад

Raptor is on Steam these days! I love that game still.

@txcrix9236 Месяц назад

@@TeaposeI loved Fury 3! New Kroy and it's soundtrack will always be my favorite.

@Irisfantasies Месяц назад

@@txcrix9236 Fury 3 might be my all time favorite pc game honestly... i still remember playing the demo when i was a child it came on a windows 98 cd haha

@Kinoksis Месяц назад

3:03 "But there's a bit of a problem in describing broad categories of games with the name of another." Dark Souls: 👀

@AkumaNoKuroi Месяц назад

SoulsBourne, anybody? XD

@seamusfinnerty5897 Месяц назад

rogue too

@mrpositronia Месяц назад

Action RPG. Or it would be, if it were released in the 80s.

@olivetho 22 дня назад

roguelike still being a genre name to this day (even spawned its own spinoff genre: roguelite)

@jorbore1413 18 дней назад

metroidvanias:

@rosskwolfe Месяц назад

"I will be taking no questions." Now that's a power move.

@juststatedtheobvious9633 Месяц назад

It's how a troll runs away before anyone points out Gauntlet isn't any kind of RPG.

@arciks11 Месяц назад

@@juststatedtheobvious9633Ahoy woke up and decided to use his skills for mild evil. I respect that.

@ghoulbuster1 Месяц назад

Chad

@JustKrin Месяц назад

If you want to ask him about it, wait until the next video. We're back in the play by mail era with Ahoy

@electricboogaloo2369 Месяц назад

@@juststatedtheobvious9633 >ahoy >troll lol

@TrumpLester Месяц назад

"Daikatana was a Quake killer." Now comes the part where we throw our heads back and laugh.

@jojothefine Месяц назад

Daikatana was a Daikatana killer

@SosumiInc Месяц назад

Daikatana got pretty good with the latest fan patches.

@atifarshad7624 Месяц назад

@@SosumiInctrue. It did become decent, but still nowhere near Quake killer.

@ShadowAngel606 Месяц назад

@@atifarshad7624 It definitely is better than Quake 1 (Tech Demo and nothing more, considering the advances the build engine FPS' made, Quake being on the same design level as Doom was in 1994 was lame) and Quake 2 (which is probably the most overrated FPS ever)

@mortenera2294 Месяц назад

@@ShadowAngel606 Quake 1? I can definitely understand that. The dark blocky graphics aged kinda poorly, the enemies look stupid with their pre-rendered sprites and most levels can be boring. But Quake 2 sure as hell ain't overrated, it's still great fun today.

@LesGummo69 Месяц назад

In Italy we simply referred to every game with a lot of shooting involved as "sparatutto", literally "shooteverything" being there fps, side scrolling shooters or whatever. i don't remember when the thing stopped, but i'm pretty sure it lasted at least well into psx era

@momsaccount4033 7 часов назад

I like that term. I think I will use it

@Burn_Angel Месяц назад

Doom doesn't require you to kill enemies aside from boss fights (which we could say, they count as 'special levels'). It's just about getting from point A to point B, maybe looking for a couple of keys. It's a walking simulator, with obstacles. An interactive walking simulator, if you might.

@chazcampos1258 Месяц назад

So it was a failed attempt at inspiring physical fitness.

@YayaFeiLong Месяц назад

Well, more of a running-full-tilt simulator, really

@Burn_Angel Месяц назад

@@YayaFeiLong Funny you mention it, I was going to write it as "Wheelchair simulator, but in Mars/Hell", since, because you can't jump, the idea of Doomguy being on a wheelchair has been a running gag ("running" gag, lmao) for decades.

@k0lpA Месяц назад

it's a racing game

@RustBot42 Месяц назад

@@Burn_Angel I second this motion.

@qwesx Месяц назад

I'm so glad that you didn't find an angle to categorize it as a Pong clone.

@ClokworkGremlin Месяц назад

Missed opportunity. Now he's going to have to re-make the entire video from scratch.

@coriander_sun Месяц назад

It's an interesting inversion on the genre - Instead of one ball being passed back and forth, you have an inventory of different varieties of one-time-use balls you can send out. And instead of trying get the ball past your enemy, the goal is to have as many as possible come into contact with them (while avoiding the balls they send out). It's a novel take on a genre that was in danger of going stale

@RevRaptor898 Месяц назад

It is pong just the baddies are really bad at catching the ball, admittedly it is a very fast and painful ball :)

@DrSpaceman69 Месяц назад

@@coriander_sunI like how they still managed to capture the original spirit of pong despite the inversion!

@magnesiafrost1863 Месяц назад

Pong killer!

@Brunosky_Inc Месяц назад

5:34 "Co-op's for girls? Not according to Team Fortress 2" That is _certainly_ a headline.

@burnthompson286 Месяц назад

Of all the headlines that came out that year, that is certainly one of them

@burnthompson286 Месяц назад

Its crazy that TF2's production looked like that Holy crap the article is from 1999 and the expected release was SUMMER. It took over 7 years to release from that point!

@jacobspadt2567 Месяц назад

@@burnthompson286 I'm not certain but I assume the article was about TF Classic, which may have been called TF2 before release. TFC released April '97 and would've been the sequel to the original Quake mod.

@Matth3w23 Месяц назад

@@jacobspadt2567 In the bottom left it says that TF2 is scheduled to release just before Quake 3, which was released (and announced I think?) in 1999! And also it definitely looks like early TF2's more realistic theming.

@Tuxfanturnip Месяц назад

every TF2 player coming out as trans 20 years later:

@raid55 Месяц назад

Carmack is the father of modern gaming. His work on the quake engine, that instead of selling he open sourced, inspired every modern engine to this day. There is still code from the quake engine in unity, source and even unreal engine to this very day. He redefined gaming so many times and never did it for profit, but for his prolific love of games and game development.

@GuckFoogle-pk6ns 20 дней назад

Even Call of Duty is based on the Quake engine. Ever wondered why you go a little faster when you're pressed up against a wall in CoD? Quake code.

@LeeeHack Месяц назад

Come to think of it, EVERY game is some sort of an RPG: - HalfLife? - you take on the role of Gordon Freeman - Quake? - you are now a Ranger - Railroad Tycoon II? - you are now the Fat Controller...

@r0de Месяц назад

Its something I noticed in the behaviour of certain players. Taking on the ROLE of the character you inhabit. Its most noticable when you see people playing and kinda going "along" with the script. I distinctly remember watching a friend play HL2 and when he was in a conversation with Kleiner in the chapter 'Red Letter Day', he'd actually nod his head to one of Kleiner's questions. I asked him about this and he plainly told me "Well, he's my friend and he just asked me a question. It'd be rude not to answer" Its a rather fascinating part of player psychology and immersion

@AccoSpoot Месяц назад

Convinced my friend, who only plays football manager games, that he was actually playing an RPG.

@BigBuckies Месяц назад

honestly why I think the RPG label is a bad descriptor, it can technically be applied to all games, but it got applied to games like elder scrolls and ultima, or jrpgs like dragonquest and final fantasy, I imagine because of dnd role playing connotations, though I could be wrong about that when applied to the jrpg side, either way, it's really not that good at conveying what the game will be like if you don't know what games it applies to already, which kind of defeats the purpose of a descriptor

@versace6609 Месяц назад

Does that mean GTA is an RPG ?

@BigBuckies Месяц назад

@@versace6609 yeah sure why not

@novelezra Месяц назад

I wish I could have been there to see John Carmack hear about texture mapping for the first time (probably one of, if not the most important technical leaps in 3D game design), only to pause for a few moments to ponder this concept and then say: "I can do that" And then do it on a scale that is still astonishing to this day.

@rya3190 Месяц назад

I've had those "ah, ha!" moments... wish I had half of Carmack's drive and ability to bring them to fruition.

Месяц назад

I don't think he heard about texture mapping for the first time then, it was already a thing in computer graphics for a long time. Rather it was probably the first time he heard someone say they are going to do it on commodity hardware in real time (in a game). Compare to how ray tracing has been around for over half a century in computer graphics, but is only now becoming feasible to do in games in real time.

@Roxor128 Месяц назад

@ The Demoscene has been doing real-time raytracing since 1995. Transgression 2 by MFX from 1996 being a good early example. Heaven 7 by Exceed from 2000 ups the capabilities. Still Sucking Nature by Federation Against Nature from 2003 looks better than games of the era and showcases environments that wouldn't be out of place in one with system requirements of just a Pentium II with 128MB of memory. Well, okay, it _has_ fallen out of favour in recent years, due to ray-marching of signed distance fields catching on, as it's a hell of a lot easier to make organic stuff with it than raytracing or rasterised polygons.

Месяц назад

@@Roxor128 Yes. The demoscene does cool stuff, but it's also not quite the same as what you can achieve in a playable game.

@BaddeJimme Месяц назад

IIRC Carmack was inspired by news that Ultima Underworld was going to have texture mapping, which led him to realize that he could do it much more efficiently, albeit in a limited way.

@mixererunio1757 Месяц назад

First I was like "Thats a stupid question. It's an FPS" But then I noticed is an Ahoy video. And I became really intrigued.

@ikagura Месяц назад

Like the first video game

@LyaksandraB Месяц назад

FPS is a modern classification, though, so you're applying that label retroactively. I haven't watched, but I imagine the video will be about what genre it was considered back then.

@drunkndwrf Месяц назад

I wasn't ready for Doom to be classified under that genre. Love your videos when they come off as a riddle to your viewers.

@NeroVingian40 Месяц назад

The video even opened with the exact same question lmao

@mypdf Месяц назад

@@LyaksandraB Genre names are always retroactively applied to games, as a genre only exists when there are multiple games that have similarities. You can't have a genre with just one game in it. So in the beginning Doom was just Doom, but as the genre started to exist it fell into the newly created FPS genere.

@WhiteZet1 Месяц назад

3:10 - Just realized we do indeed call rogue a roguelike. Also would be interesting to see Ahoy cover the topic of roguelikes/roguelites.

@AkumaNoKuroi Месяц назад

Just like we have a whole genre of games named after their similarities to the pivotal games Medroid & Castlevania - MetroidVanias! XD

@LonelySpaceDetective Месяц назад

In addition to what you two said, people absolutely call Demon's Souls, Dark Souls and Bloodborne "Soulsborne" games. (Even if I don't because they're just action RPGs)

@WhiteZet1 Месяц назад

@@LonelySpaceDetective Tbh I dislike calling games ARPG because it means too many things these days. Feels like anything is an ARPG. Soulsborne actually is a lot more specific.

@AkumaNoKuroi Месяц назад

@@WhiteZet1 Diablo (1996) is an ARPG in the purest sense, that was born as a D&D-style campaign that originally was going to be turn-based, but during development they found it doing 20 turns-per-second in the background gave it a responsive real-time gameplay with an addictive gameplay loop. This spawned a franchise that's now 28 years old with competitors in the Torchlight series and Path of Exile, both of which were worked on by ex-Blizzard North devs that made the original Diablo, Diablo II (2000) & Diablo II: Lord of Destruction (2001), that left the company during the development hell of Diablo III (2012).

@WhiteZet1 Месяц назад

@@AkumaNoKuroi Yeah but some ppl call Bloodborne/Dark Souls games ARPG. As well as the DMC series. And Dragon Age Inquisition. It's lost all meaning in my eyes, as helpful as calling your game an rpg.

@rafaeldasilva6247 Месяц назад

I'm on the hospital treating what I believe and hope is a minor infection, and seeing this pop up on my recommendations brightened my day immensely. Also, I loved the use of the "Suspense" theme, it was a highlight on the previous Doom video, and didn't disappoint here either. Finally, "Doom is an action RPG". This is the evilest thing I've ever seen in a while, I loved it!

@rgal Месяц назад

DOOM is an adventure game in which pointing and clicking elements on the screen is a key game mechanic. A point-and-click adventure, if you will.

@juststatedtheobvious9633 Месяц назад

It makes more sense than his nonsense about arcade quarter munchers being RPGs because keys, smart bombs, and health packs dressed up in fantasy gear.

@diydylana3151 Месяц назад

What makes it funnier is that adventure games root in rpgs and the videos answer is action rpg :"D

@HeltonYan Месяц назад

@@juststatedtheobvious9633 why are you so passionate about his statement? Are you personally offended that gauntlet is obviously an rpg?

@RutabagaSwe Месяц назад

@@HeltonYan I don't think Gauntlet is "obviously" an RPG in any way, to be fair 😅

@nthedecent7717 Месяц назад

TF2 sniper main here, I will defend that point with you *ba-dum-tss*

@burnthompson286 Месяц назад

I gotta say, when I first saw the title of this vid, I immediately thought "dungeon crawler". To me it seems like Doom gameplay focuses equally on shooting and movement, especially navigating the often maze-like levels. Evidenced by the fact that you dont strictly need to kill every monster to advance to the next level. Thanks for the great vid as always!

@planetdrull1701 Месяц назад

Even the score at the end of the level is decided by the number of enemies killed, power ups used and secrets discovered. Each level was really a unique dungeon to explore

@Grease-Goblin Месяц назад

Dungeon crawler is a pretty solid one, actually. I would have called it a first-person action game, but this feels like a natural description for the time. It certainly seems like a more sincere attempt at defining Doom's genre than to call it an action RPG.

@adre2194 Месяц назад

I think people often put too much emphasis on how much combat made up Doom. It was big yes but like you said the exploration was just as much. I genuinely can't object to calling Doom a dungeon crawler.

@MrCantStopTheRobot Месяц назад

Levels with dense enemy placement definitely become "first person shmups" or "first person bullet hell" as you weave between projectiles. But recall that Sandy Peterson designed levels with D&D consciously in his mind. Which he mentions in almost every interview he's given.

@OscarGreenworth Месяц назад

The phrase DOOM clone reminds me of the term souls-like. A game so successful that it inspired an entire new genre.

@xBINARYGODx 11 дней назад

we still use the term rogue like and rogue lite - and no we even have a game calling itself Souls-lite, so... but anyway, Souls like is not a genre, its a sub genre of 3rd person action game OR perhaps of aRPG.

@craig2196 Месяц назад

Ahoy's voice is getting more and more gritty with every upload, not a complaint, just an observation. Also the 90's inspired editing is top notch!

@lainothefirst Месяц назад

Carmack was kinda crazy with it. Like, he just hears some term from Romero and casually goes with it. "Texture mapping? ...yeah, I can do that." Gigachad behavior

@Sekir80 Месяц назад

I have high respect for Carmack. Guy can talk about anything for an hour and I just watch in awe. Interesting how efficient he is.

@AnimatedStoriesWorldwide Месяц назад

Carmack is as good, as Romero was proud. You needed both of them to make Doom/Quake

@ghoulbuster1 Месяц назад

Carmack the Code God

@hoorayimhelping3978 Месяц назад

Knowing what I know about him, he was probably already investigating texture mapping and thought it was cool and came up with a novel way of doing it that was 40% more efficient, so he went ahead and whipped up a demo on Friday from 6:00 PM until 3 the next morning.

@pauloricardo-wn6ps Месяц назад

Benevolent hyper-intelligent architect of the post-singularity simulation we all live in, John Carmack was beast

@tehbigshow Месяц назад

I remember way back, before Quake, I used to call what we now call FPS, shoot-em-ups. Anytime I searched that genre, I got top-down shooters. Never understood this. Back at this time, the term 'corridor shooter' was what we call Doom-like games. FPS feels like it took hold around the time Half-Life came out.

@ronindebeatrice Месяц назад

Yup. All I wanted in the mid 90's were FPS games. "Shooter" was about all I knew to try to find them. All I got were top down and 12 year old me saw those as old hat.

@DrundeFPS Месяц назад

And then Half-Life came out and ruined the genre.

@thechief00 Месяц назад

i remember too when all these games were just called "shoot-em-ups"... we're old now. lol

@ActionGamerAaron Месяц назад

Return to shmups and be happy.

@SmallSpoonBrigade Месяц назад

IIRC, shoot em ups are often called shmups now for reasons I don't really get. And corridor shooters came along more recently than FPS because there wasn't a need for the term until there started to be arena shooters that had a bunch of large areas doing the bullet hell equivalent from shoot em ups.

@rakseiify Месяц назад

0:33 the shot pierced through the zombie hitting the barrel behind it, which exploded gibbing the other zombie beside the barrel in a very satisfying manner... that's some of Doom's magic

@SATO_FD2R Месяц назад

Glad to see Ahoy not taking a billion year hiatus again, I can’t handle the wait

@TheBellTolls Месяц назад

"Thank you, I will be taking _no_ questions." Perfection.

@wcsoblake85 Месяц назад

Ahoy is like the favorite uncle. You barely get to see him but you are always thinking about Him. When he shows up unexpectedly, you get excited!

@Pangloss6413 Месяц назад

I like how your pfp is of firefighters and EMTs but not cops

@Wyrm3 Месяц назад

@@Pangloss6413as it should be

@soldierstrife7 Месяц назад

I always get so excited when I see a new Ahoy video. Amazing voice, highly educational, and captivating scripts have had me coming back for many years and will for as long as they are uploaded.

@Soulessblur Месяц назад

It's always a breath of fresh air when Ahoy returns to us. His breaks are always JUST long enough that I start to wonder if he's coming back.

@Henners Месяц назад

The reference to 64 Magazine at 1:56 calling doom a “First person shoot’em up” was referring to Doom 64 from 1997, after the genre title was already defined

@TheJacklikesvideos Месяц назад

the whole first half and the related part in the second half are all just a time capsule of how video game journalism has always been the lowest form of journalism. they were trying to fill pages and paid by the word, and long after saying "first sight" twice before calling Descent a DOOM clone they were still hyping the next thing as Halo killers.

@IAmEnormous Месяц назад

I played the original games after the 2016 revival, and all I could think was, "People really do not talk enough about how much dungeon crawler DNA is in these games."

@madjackmadjack Месяц назад

Absolutely, just like Diablo 1 was originally going to be a turn based Rogue like. Dungeons and Dragons and Rogue contributed a lot to both of these foundational titles. Also, if you want it to feel even more like a dungeon crawler, load to each level with cheats or intentionally die and respawn; you'll start each level just liley you started the first, with a pistol and fifty rounds of ammo. Then each level becomes a puzzle, as you try to rebuild your arsenal and defeat or avoid enemies without the benefit of previous levels' surplus supplies.

@LocalSlasher Месяц назад

@@madjackmadjackaka pistol start; iirc they made every level with that in mind too. Hmm... So what you're saying is Doom... is a puzzle game. Brilliant!

@BlackJar72 Месяц назад

To me Doom is fundamentally a dungeon crawler with guns (that is also an FPS in that it has a first person camera and focuses on shooting); the dungeon crawler aspect is something that seems missing in newer FPS games I've played (replaced by over-complicated controls to support more actions than needed) -- which is why I loved Doom and Hexen, but don't really like modern FPS, and the first "real" game I made was a Doom clone at its core a billed as a "dungeon crawler with guns." I like first person dungeon crawlers, not shooters per se.

@madjackmadjack Месяц назад

@@BlackJar72 Yeah, absolutely. Have you tried Kings Field or Lunacid?

@SixtyEmeralds 20 дней назад

What you have me wondering, now, is if someone could make a dynamic dungeon crawler using the Doom Engine. Now, I'll admit I've been playing a lot of Deep Rock Galactic and that game has been on my mind a lot, and a lot of what that game is doing is what I'd like to see, just maybe for the dungeon crawler genre instead of the space dwarven fantasy genre.

@CCNeverender Месяц назад

Just wanted to take a second to recognize the effort you put into the visual style of this episode with the very 90's styled backgrounds and stickers and whatnot. Love seeing creators mix it up and get creative with the window-dressing :)

@hrrawr Месяц назад

Your logic is actually extremely sound and this is really good presentation. Bravo! More straightforward than I expected, thank you.

@pawahara Месяц назад

WAKE UP BABE AHOY'S UPLOADING AGAIN

@user-p6-3561 Месяц назад

new kino just dropped

@APHEXACE Месяц назад

Kino @@user-p6-3561

@Dootsauce Месяц назад

WE UP WE WATCHIN WE SITTING DOWN

@r3d3y3dstranger Месяц назад

@@user-p6-3561 Tsoi lives!

@gdzpseudi Месяц назад

So true 😂

@Vodkarn Месяц назад

Talk about a blast from the past. I'm in my 40's now, and this reminded me that very early on, people would use 'FPS' to mean "First-Person Shoot-'em-up". We even (briefly) said 'TDS' for "Top-Down Shoot-'em-up". Thanks Ahoy, for the memories ;)

@gentuxable Месяц назад

If you're playing a "Top-Down Shoot-em-up" shouldn't you close your eyes when killing something?

@TheJacklikesvideos Месяц назад

@@gentuxable yes, you have to wear your safety squints.

@SmallSpoonBrigade Месяц назад

I think a lot of this depends on how into gaming mags people were because it wasn't until a few years later than the internet became common enough to shape the way that the terms are used in any significant way.

@DirtDude117 Месяц назад

I'm glad to still see these videos pop up, I have missed you Ahoy!

@JaneSmith-zy9di 21 день назад

Been away from the internet for about two months and when I come back there is two new Ahoy videos, what a treat.

@BenzaieLive2 Месяц назад

only works if nobody questions Gauntlet as an RPG, when it's mostly based on mazes & shooting, truely inspired by RPGs, like Druaga, but Doom is evidently molded from catacomb 3D evidently molded after catacomb, which is drawn frow gauntlet, but gauntlet has more to do with shooting in mazes than dungeon master is

@Arnathor4582 Месяц назад

C'est vrai que Doom est indéniablement imprégné d'une ambiance dungeon crawler Beaucoup de fan de la première avec qui je discute sur les forums m'ont assuré que le jeu était flippant à sa sortie, qu'il y avait définitivement un côté horreur très présent. Content de te voir ici Benzou

@pvanukoff Месяц назад

I agree. Gauntlet is NOT an RPG. It has some RPG-like elements, but it's primarily an overhead shooter.

@Paraninja Месяц назад

This is what I came to say even knowing the video is tongue in cheek.

@LutraLovegood Месяц назад

@@Arnathor4582 Doom is an Action Roguelike. Not to be confused with the Doom roguelike "D**m, the Roguelike" aka "DRL" and "DoomRL", it's spiritual successor "Jupiter Hell", or the roguelike Doom mod "Doom Infinite".

@MrWertheron Месяц назад

In France we called them 'Doom like' and it took longer for FPS to 'win' (and the fact it's not translated like STR for RTS is a good indicator of that).

@adynat0n Месяц назад

We should honor the origins of the genre and start calling them "Wolfendooms"

@ClokworkGremlin Месяц назад

@@adynat0n You're definitely going to get the furry community's attention with that one.

@HappyBeezerStudios Месяц назад

@@adynat0n Ahh, that follows the idea of "Soulslikes", or rather "Soulsbornes"

@adynat0n Месяц назад

@@HappyBeezerStudios And Metroidvanias

@HappyBeezerStudios Месяц назад

@@adynat0n oh right. Metroid and Symphony of the night.

@levifzephyr Месяц назад

So good to watch your videos! Thanks for your time and effort.

@soganox Месяц назад

Entertaining and informative as always, sir! Thank you :)

@OhShiznitz1 Месяц назад

I think we're going through a similar situation right now with "souls-like" I wonder if the genre will gain a name of its own or will follow the path of Rogue.

@waywardscythe3358 Месяц назад

I think there's a fair chance "Soulslike" will stick with "soulsborne" being the broad term for Fromsoft games in that category. though who knows, maybe "soulsborne" will stick across the board like metroidvania did

@DanArnets1492 Месяц назад

For me those are "brutal action RPGs" · They're really violent and hard · There's not much time to think when things are going down · There's plenty of role-playing as you can choose classes and such

@lukemccullough9279 Месяц назад

Soulslike is a confusing genre. The main innovation and characteristic present in all of the Sousborne-ring games is the introduction of multiplayer elements to what would be otherwise a singleplayer game, such as invasions and messages, however games like Noby Noby Boy and Death Stranding also feature these mechanics and are not referred to as soulslike. The other descriptor for Dark Souls is the merger of action RPG and Metroidvania. At what point to genres turn from game descriptor to marketing gimmick?

@egoalter1276 Месяц назад

Dark souls is definitely an ARPG, with heavy influence from action adventure games like Legend of Zelda, and Legacy of Kain.

@aliceyuri Месяц назад

given roguelike stuck and metroidvania stuck id put money on soulslike sticking too, especially since with soulslikes I feel like if you stray too much from the souls influence you've just made an action rpg

@CarelessFoolFallsFlat Месяц назад

What I love about this conclusion is that the influence is seen not just in the mechanics, but also in the environments and the enemies themselves. It's practically painted all over the walls...at least, it is after Doomguy is finished making paste out of everybody.

@drjohnwooberg Месяц назад

I don’t know if it’s a conscious choice or a limitation of those early 3D engines, but it’s interesting how all the early FPSs are essentially dungeon crawls with guns.

@chrishalsall188 Месяц назад

Good to have you back. Would be lovely to have a bonus update on life behind the scenes Stu. It’s been time.

@SuperDropsX Месяц назад

I would add to the Action RPG signs that, while the setting is futuristic, the enemies are demons, the domain of fantasy for the most part. I also would add that, in germany, when the genre emerged we called them "Ego-Shooters". I haven't followed german gaming press in over a decade, so it'd be interesting to see if/when that term died

@DanArnets1492 Месяц назад

"Ego" just comes from the fact that it's on first-person, nothing else really

@n3rdy11 Месяц назад

@@DanArnets1492 A fact that went over most German mainstream medias heads in the early 2000s when they were all in hysteria over "killer games". They claimed the "ego" in "ego shooter" stood for the egoistical power fantasy of killing other people, one that FPS games are allegedly teaching people.

@mrheisenberg83 Месяц назад

@@n3rdy11 Remember when Doom and Mortal Kombat were seemingly public enemy nr. 1? The good old days of kids getting into serious trouble for making quake maps of their schools. The hysteria was real. And the BPJS were my mortal enemies.

@nirmalsuki Месяц назад

I thought Shadowcaster was a game I made up in a dream back in the 90s, because I remember playing it at a friend's place (His was the only computer that would play it) and enjoying it thoroughly. I was not sure if that memory was real... Literally nobody I know had heard about it, let alone played it.

@jasonblalock4429 Месяц назад

It's also one of the few Origin games from that era that, iirc, was never rereleased and isn't even on GOG.

@LocalSlasher Месяц назад

@@jasonblalock4429Any idea why not?

@jasonblalock4429 Месяц назад

So then I suppose MIDI Maze / Faceball would be the first "pure" FPS without any RPG elements. That said, I've never been sold on the idea that Gauntlet is an RPG. It's more a fantasy-themed shmup in a maze. And there's precedent for that, Konami's Tutankham. But Gauntlet's complete lack of character-building - beyond putting in quarters to add food - is why I'd hesitate to call it an RPG. (And same for Doom.) If you say I'm "role-playing" as an Elf in Gauntlet, then you might as well also say I'm role-playing as a Vic Viper in Gradius. Hell, Gradius actually has more character-building than Gauntlet, through its upgrade system. So therefore, Gradius is also an RPG. 😁

@wulf4785 Месяц назад

All of my favorite creators have posted in the past week, god bless the work you do. I love your stuff!

@jademonass2954 Месяц назад

i love seeing what people call a thing before it becomes truly coined like, before "conlang" was coined, people sometimes called them "fantasy languages", "planned lanuage" and "ideal language" to name a few i am exceptionally curious what the new name is going to be for the "souls like" genre, cuz i know we wont stick we that considering we have the ability to name it whatever we want

@ReverendTed Месяц назад

At this stage, there are so many "Souls-likes" that the term may well stick around, similar to roguelike and rogue-lite.

@lucasLSD Месяц назад

The roguelike term is older than millions of people playing games now, I don't think it can change without it becoming too descriptive. I also think soulslike will stick around because we don't have the Strife of dark souls yet, every game is still closely following fromsoft's formula.

@applehack97 Месяц назад

yeah, reminded me of the labeling of new music genres. Like, what did people call Black Sabbath before the term "heavy metal" was coined? Psychedelic rock? Hard rock? Overdriven-guitar-based technical blues?

@NigelXW Месяц назад

@@applehack97 To a lot of those bands that laid the foundation for metal, they would just say they're playing rock and roll

@kaitlyn__L Месяц назад

@@applehack97 hard rock, dark rock, yeah. But generally just rock unless pushed to specify

@synchronos1 Месяц назад

It’s actually interesting to analyse that if you consider the difference of gameplay in Doom 1993 and Doom 2016, it mostly boils down to added RPG elements.

@itzhexen0 Месяц назад

and made by completely different people.

@ikagura Месяц назад

And closer to Quake gameplay.

@itzhexen0 Месяц назад

Also the original doom is darker and not rip and tear I'm a bad ass. You actually get your ass kicked in it. Even though you guys have turned it into that.

@mothertrucker341 Месяц назад

@@itzhexen0and I thought I needed to get laid

@doodguytheblank2403 Месяц назад

@@itzhexen0sounds like a skill issue

@ratykat Месяц назад

It's a good day when you see Ahoy drop a new vid!

@flounder31 Месяц назад

Missed you, Stuart! Thanks for another great vid.

@madjackmadjack Месяц назад

What Doom is missing as an RPG is character skill abstracted away from player skill; you can't put more points into "don't miss with shotgun". Character skill as an abstraction is what makes a RPG; you can play as a skilled swordsman or wise wizard without having to know the difference between Ox Guard and Plow Guard or being able to recite the seven metals.

@danieladamczyk4024 Месяц назад

Witcher.

@ReverendTed Месяц назад

It's possible to do a very minimal amount of role-playing in Doom. You can "roleplay" as a Barbarian by deciding to go through it melee only, or as a pacifist by killing only when necessary, but yeah - you're absolutely correct from a modern understanding of the genres and the idea of character abstraction.

@danieladamczyk4024 Месяц назад

@@ReverendTed Not all role plaing is based of what you want to do. Is about what you can do.

@celeron55 Месяц назад

So essentially, an FPS is a 3D action RPG without the character skills? I'm sure there are quite a few FPSes that just changed their genre to 3D action RPG...

@danieladamczyk4024 Месяц назад

@@celeron55 Genre don't exists.

@TheAgentdp Месяц назад

I would dare say that this issue also plagues the Dark Souls trilogy. What defines Dark Souls, and what is a "Souls-like"? High difficulty with high rewards? Berserk inspired visuals? Dodge-rolling? Intricate story telling? Character creation? I know there are videos debunking this, but I still feel that the issue persists. It would seem that as games were compared to Doom as Doom-clones, so to shall other games be compared to a vastly more popular game that preceeded it in it's genre(s).

@danieladamczyk4024 Месяц назад

Consequences, everything being part of the world and permament save. Yep, that's all.

@VanessaMagick Месяц назад

I like Yahtzee's term for it, which is a "recursive RPG"

@unfilthy Месяц назад

Ah, but are Souls-like really like Dark Souls, or are they really Souldborne-like?

@ThePageofCups Месяц назад

Soulslikes are pretty much uniformly defined by weighty combat with a stamina system, checkpoints you have to explicitly activate, monsters that can kill you as quickly as you can kill them, and typically very hostile location design with either traps or malicious (read: mean) enemy placement. Also very common is a general dour moodiness to the world that's either in its waning days, darkest days, or in days attempting to rebuild. Not always (Slay the Minotaur is weird) but common.

@Hexagonaldonut Месяц назад

@@ThePageofCups Also very common is losing all or most of a particular resource (that usually functions as money) whenever you die, which is how games like Hollow Knight get considered to be vaguely soulslike themselves. (The atmosphere also helps.)

@viiuan Месяц назад

love the rendition of your logo in this one :]

@ajohnson2706 Месяц назад

Surprise appearance by Charlie Brooker at 5:23, always forget he used to be a games journalist.

@TheUnaturalSelection Месяц назад

So good to see you back and with doom content. So good.

@ReverendTed Месяц назад

I am immediately reminded of a single panel from Penny Arcade's June 11th, 2001 comic (which capped a series of 4 strips starting June 4th, decrying the state of gaming at the time). "This is more of a mid-to-late 80s platformer, with... Yes, I believe there's a hint of sim." "Yes, sim. Quite right. Garcon! More genres!"

@f.o.c4039 Месяц назад

"Garcon means boy"

@ryansilver4212 Месяц назад

Always a good day when Ahoy posts

@Atreus21 Месяц назад

THis has been a good weekend. Both Ahoy and Lemmino uploaded.

@natayaway Месяц назад

triangle square circle upsidedown triangle is such a clever abstraction of AHOY

@Glegh Месяц назад

Doom. The genre is Doom.

@ridhosamudro2199 Месяц назад

If not, then why's the other game is called "Doom Clones"?

@danmur15 Месяц назад

My first thought too haha

@LyaksandraB Месяц назад

Yeah, sure, but that's the endpoint of collective consensus. Surely there were more labels along the way, and we should put special consideration on the ones the devs thought up. I mean, they made the damn thing.

@machinatingminotaur6285 Месяц назад

@@LyaksandraB you don't need collective consensus to have been blown away by what doom was and what it offered in 93. I didn't need anyone to tell me this was something else entirely

@oliparkhouse Месяц назад

@@LyaksandraBwell said, memes be memes but there's time for philosophising too. Apart from @machinatingminotaur6285 he simply felt it in his bones

@VorpalDerringer Месяц назад

Excellent work, as always Ahoy.

@grampo567 9 дней назад

these vids set such a high bar for quality. once again always great watching these vids

@igormoreno3464 Месяц назад

Well, the id Software gang were indeed playing a lot of DnD while developing Doom, and even the inspiration of the Cacodemons came from the cover of a DnD book... :D

@Big-Wumpus Месяц назад

Also the premis of doom having demons invade earth from hell comes from on of IDs dnd campaigns

@penelopermolai Месяц назад

ooooh yeah. 3rd edition of Spelljammer right?

@wallyhackenslacker Месяц назад

The original idea for Quake was pretty much turning their DnD campaign into a videogame IIRC, before crunch forced them to turn Quake into what it is.

@Smurfman256 Месяц назад

The source code reads a lot like how DnD battles are played out.

@penguincamp Месяц назад

I am so overjoyed that you included the bibliography in the video description!!!

@ihavecojones Месяц назад

Ahoy released a new video at the same time as Lemmino? Christmass came early this year baby! Whoooo!

@TheUltimateBlooper Месяц назад

Your video essays are just never boring O_O

@DeadPixel1105 14 дней назад

I've had friends who aren't even gamers willingly sit here and watch a few Ahoy/RetroAhoy videos, and they were legitimately into it. You know you're a damn good presenter/host if even people who aren't interested in the topic are listening to you, completely enthralled.

@TalkingVidya Месяц назад

Doom: a game that would become it's own genre

@Eric_Pham Месяц назад

Dude, i was thinking and commented the same thing!

@malikfaisal416 Месяц назад

Souls-like

@vinnie245 Месяц назад

Whats Doom? Its Doom.

@JamesR624 Месяц назад

Kinda reminds me of how in the 2000's, every keyboard phone was a "Sidekick" and every smartphone was a "Blackberry Clone", and in the late 2000's to early 2010's, every all-touchscreen smartphone was an "iPhone clone", and every tablet was an "iPad".

@cattysplat Месяц назад

Laptop was a "portable computer". Talking to people online was for "weirdos." You didn't browse or search the internet, you surfed.

@pokehybridtrainer Месяц назад

This Unihertz Titan and older Key 2 pales to the functionality of the Sidekick. I still miss it and these keyboard phones are great for IT work to not lug a laptop around.

@armorhide406 Месяц назад

Didn't help seemingly every parent said you were playing Mario on your Nintendo... Even if you were on an XBOX 360 playing Halo

@goat-eyes Месяц назад

@@armorhide406You poor thing. How ever did you survive such neglect?

@TheJacklikesvideos Месяц назад

reminds me of at the time how people called the thing after the brand

@Crushenator500 Месяц назад

What an amazing video. I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to videogame history, I lived through most of it, but I learned a lot of new things here. Thank you for making this!

@arturbb Месяц назад

Surprisingly, I've actually always thought that, but instead of RPG I'd use the term Dungeon-Crawler, since I think that's a more appropriate genre that applies to the games you label as RPGs in the video, and was also a very common label that was used at the time. Doom definitely shares a LOT of DNA with those games, so I do think a more "academically correct" way of referring to Doom genre-wise in 1993 would've been "Action Dungeon-Crawler".

@lev7509 Месяц назад

At 5:35 one can see what TF2 was initially sketched to be before being completely redesigned to what we know and love it as, a nice glimpse into history and a reminder how creative genius often comes during the process.

@Dsand23 Месяц назад

It's very nice to see the pivot towards a steady(ish) stream of starter content in addition to the masterfully produced documentaries I pay for. Thanks for amazing content, as always!

@minecraftsteve2504 Месяц назад

Documentaries you pay for? Does he have more documentaries locked behind a pay wall somewhere?

@doomguy19931 Месяц назад

@@minecraftsteve2504 he might be a Patreon supporter

@Dsand23 Месяц назад

@@minecraftsteve2504 No, but Patrons get videos ~ 3 days earlier

@chownful Месяц назад

How much do you pay? Would you consider yourself a pay pig?

@AntonyCannon Месяц назад

4:34 Ironically, it seems that John Romero left id software feeling that Quake indeed being a doom clone was the true disrespect.

@ForumArcade Месяц назад

All genre classifications are inherently imperfect, but I think rather than dividing shooting games into first-person and third-person, a more useful standard is the nature of the gameplay mechanics and narrative. Doom is predominantly an Action Shooter. Mass Effect is a Roleplaying Shooter. You can have Stealth Shooters, Adventure Shooters, Casual, Puzzle, and so forth. A game like Deus Ex would fit well into multiple categories.

@SynRequiem Месяц назад

There’s also an overlap with “immersive sims” with games in the lineage like Dishonored, BioShock, Deus Ex, etc.

@DoomRater Месяц назад

What's really interesting is the lack of description of Doom as a horror shooter. While very fast paced once you start always running, there is a consistent theme of hell, demons, and dread. The skill ceiling was unknown at the time, and speedrun history will show that

@hiramesensei3112 Месяц назад

in reality it doesnt matter at all and arguing about it is pointless because the only reason the classifications exist is to give people some guidance on whether its a type of game that would appeal to them

@SmallSpoonBrigade Месяц назад

I'd probably go with something along the lines of "corridor shooter" as opposed to "arena shooter" because you're not locked into rooms with tons of monsters with relatively few in between. There are definitely rooms with a large number of enemies, but you're not typically locked in with them the way you would with a arena shooter.

@DoomRater Месяц назад

@@SmallSpoonBrigade That, and corridor shooter is more along the lines of how Gauntlet plays as well. Though Doom's faster paced, more like an arena shooter like Smash TV. Or well, it could be if it bothered to force players to deal with small hordes instead of letting them retreat everywhere. Yeah the only real flaw is calling Gauntlet an RPG. You don't deal with stat management in any western sense and your only role play in that game is who you pick at the start. There's no meaningful character or stat progression. What's funny is there IS such a progression in Doom- in the weapons you pick up along the way.

@FolfHavoc Месяц назад

I've heard some call old FPS games are called Boomer Shooters, but I like calling them Wolfendooms, similar to the genre "Metroidvania" (I dunno, it sounds cool to me)

@Prikense Месяц назад

Boomer shooters should be called quakers by that logic, as they have more in common with quake (fast move speed, quirky physics, movement tech, etc) than doom

@davidemelia6296 Месяц назад

Boomer shooter is an utterly dumb name. Carmack, Romero et al were not boomers, and neither were nearly all of the people playing them, even back then.

@gibberishdump1610 Месяц назад

@@davidemelia6296nowadays, boomer is used as a term describing anyone of age so the name stuck

@dougcarey2233 Месяц назад

Can I interest anyone in a Xooter?

@rearlafull2870 Месяц назад

@@gibberishdump1610 they are not in a baby boom, most won't even have families, dumb ironic name

@yahoosashimi Месяц назад

Seeing Doom as an action RPG makes me rethink the gameplay experience of it. Always love how thought-provoking your videos are.

@akeem2983 Месяц назад

Doom is a dungeon crawler

@Admir128 Месяц назад

Welcome back Ahoy. We missed you ❤️

@AlexHider Месяц назад

Stuart, every time you upload it’s like a holiday in my house

@my4trackmachine Месяц назад

I love the angle of this video. Understanding the evolving general consensus of the time and the failed or forgotten ones really paints a picture of where things were at. This is an excellent way to convey history and the feeling of living through it. I don't think things are covered in this way nearly enough. Brilliant work.

@ValkyrieTiara Месяц назад

Check out Jeremy Parish's channel for about 10 years worth of content of looking at games in the context of their own time. He focuses mostly on 80s consoles, but in his search to "understand" the NES and Game Boy he has gone through many other more obscure (mostly Japanese) consoles over the years. If you're interested in game history that focuses on understanding games from a consumer perspective, he can't be beat.

@my4trackmachine Месяц назад

@@ValkyrieTiara Thanks for the tip! I’ll check it out.

@jd3666 Месяц назад

It's just like Die Hard. It's a Christmas story about a man trying to get back with his ex wife.

@nuberiffic Месяц назад

It's not a Christmas story, it just happens at Christmas

@RyuakiraX Месяц назад

Die Hard is a Metroidvania. A man unlocks more parts of the tower by gathering more powerful weaponrym

@S4BRETOOTH Месяц назад

@@RyuakiraX But is a metroivania with a Xmas setting! Christmasvania.

@Henners Месяц назад

@@nuberifficthe set up for die hard can’t happen without the Christmas party and coming to CA from NY for the holidays. Plus the large amount of Christmas music, and they say Christmas more than home alone. If die hard just takes place during Christmas than the same applies to home alone

@Cadmann778 Месяц назад

If you boil it down to the essentials it's a hallmark movie

@forresthunter1483 Месяц назад

Amazing video. I love these deep-dives into the taxonomy of gaming.

@ISOCATO Месяц назад

Seeing Ahoy uploading videos makes me filled with dopamine :D

@DrakoWulf Месяц назад

Ahoy is a blessing every time he posts. Only LEMMiNO gets me more excited for documentary-style content, and that's a high bar.

@purebaldness Месяц назад

Throw in David Firth and you have my 3 favourite YT channels 👌

@DrakoWulf Месяц назад

@@purebaldness I've not heard of them. What's their style of content?

@purebaldness Месяц назад

@@DrakoWulf It's the creator of 'Salad Fingers' and many, many other works. It's an animation channel and not documentaries, to be fair.

@DrakoWulf Месяц назад

@@purebaldness Ah, a Newgrounds classic.

@purebaldness Месяц назад

@@DrakoWulf LEMMiNO uploads a video one day after Ahoy lol

@trollman1296 Месяц назад

I don't know, naming the genre the game itself created sounds paradoxical

@ikagura Месяц назад

Like with Dark Souls and GTA.

@feryth Месяц назад

Oh, what do you mean, *roguelikes*? How boring!

@shrouddreamer Месяц назад

- "What genre is Doom?" - "The genre is Doom, obviously!" - "But didn't you just make up Doom?" - "Yes." - "So how do we know what genre it is?" - "The genre is Doom, obviously!" - "But didn't you just make up Doom?" ...

@pnutz_2 Месяц назад

@@ikagura and total war

@electricsabbath996 Месяц назад

Sound reasonable to me. I mean Doom is Doom, you don't need a genre to label tetris or pong.

@jroggs85 Месяц назад

Kind of surprised light gun/ rail shooter games never came up. Seems like a much more apt comparison than shoot-em-ups, at least from the perspective angle.

@nickmanc86 Месяц назад

Thank you ....this brought me down a wonderful line of thought and how important video games are as entertainment and art and how impactful they were on me growing up (right sround this time) brautiful video essay!

@JanNemcekCZ Месяц назад

Being a Linguistics major and always interested in the vocabulary of the video game world, I really enjoyed this video. The situation was very similar in Czech computer magazines, in the 90s FPS were very often called "doomovka", which can be roughly translated as a "doom-like" game. It makes sense that the situation changed with the launch of Half-Life, because it also meant a fairly significant innovation of the genre (no keys and sharply separated levels, more emphasis on scripted sequences), so that the games no longer resembled Doom so much in their structure. But it never occurred to me that FPS have their roots in the first 3D RPG games, that's a really interesting idea considering how in recent years many FPS games are infused with RPG elements (which raises the debate if it's actually always functional and necessary), because in a certain sense it is not an innovation, but a return to the roots.

@KirbandtheOatmeals Месяц назад

Doom is clearly one of the games ever made.

@the_killer_punda_punda8690 Месяц назад

Hay welcome back glad to see you making videos again . Alsome video can’t wait for the next

@gabrielmayen3933 Месяц назад

Another Stuart Brown classic. We need more videos from you, they're so well produced

@KandiKid87 Месяц назад

Immediately connected my bluetooth for this one. So good to see ya again, Ahoy!

@rubberjohnny1 Месяц назад

My day is automatically a good one when Ahoy uploads

@TheWatahboy Месяц назад

Very comprehensive, thanks for the memories and flashbacks

@perassma Месяц назад

Wow, a new Ahoy upload, that Polybius one genuinely sends shivers down my spine I think a role implies talking to me so would go with action shooter, interesting question though