The situation is more complicated than you think. Tldr: it's all about refereeing and negotiating. I was there. What can I say. These 2 referees. They ruined the mood of many fencers and teams that day. I'm pretty sure they had some "offer from up", cause Uzbekistan cadet saber team too was blatantly sued by them in front of fans and coaches. They tried to hide but they clearly sympathized some teams, especially Kuwait, which in this video. Overall, I was the witness of many things "behind the scenes". Those 2 referees and with Tarantino. Tbh I was shocked that corruption and negotiation can be in tourney like this
I have some more footage of other matches I will be posting which involves the same referee. Tbh this match had some really bad calls which is probably why Kuwait won.
Look there is no suck thing as (offer up) you don’t have something that proves that a country did sm like this maybe the referee was making a mistake it’s fine
You deserve better - your bro is from the MENA region, yet I don't appreciate disrespectful behaviors and I admire those who try to maintain calmness and be respectful.
Yeah, definately something not right there. And no disrespect to the Kuwaits but the Korean team got robbed very clearly. On the flip side I can totally understand the frustration of the Korean team but refusing to shake hands and the massive spat that occurred was definately grounds for a black card.
I agree with this but yes the Korean team was also wrong to not shake hands and give respect to the opposing side after the match even tho there were lots of bad calls during the match where we can totally understand why the Korean team was frustrated.
@@knight6257 Korean coach should have been removed after that first question when he threw his stuff on the ground. Why do you think the Korean kids thought it was proper to throw their stuff later on?
The first call was definitely incorrect. Attack right all day. The second call highlighted in the video was not that disputable. From the video angle it looks like it is either attack no remise parried on the right or parry riposte left. Anyway point left for sure. I agree lately the international referees have been less than adequate, especially in the european games
@@yogohawk13 the angle and quality of the video make it hard to see where on the blade that attack was. assuming he had the intention to beat, to me, from this angle, it looked like the beat was low, therefore parry riposte point left. u might be right and the beat was high enough on the blade to qualify as atac au fer, but hard to tell without a video review
@@ZhongXinabingchilling Attaque con fer from the right is as clear as day. The Kuwaiti fencer's MOVED from the beat on the tip of his blade. You don't need HD to see that.
A referee accidentally showed a black card not a red and my opponent put his hand out for a handshake - ref didn't take it back - the kid took advantage of the lack of an experienced ref. I didn't know better. Also, I got an uppercut to my chin in a close-corp battle. I got a yellow card and the other guy nothing. Sometimes we just have to pound sand. SMH.😕
And it happened more than once too. If you're curious as well, the coach was none other than Tarantino, former member of the Italian Mens Sabre Team. They really should've policed that though.
This happened a bunch of times in the tournament from the first round all the way to the final. The interesting thing is that there was barely any stopping him until it got into the rounds that were noticed by a lot of people/ref.
I saw this mach and i can say in this mach referees help to Kuwait team. Thanks of this they won. Referees didn't give lots of touch Korean team. I think if referees gave all touch correctly Korean team maybe won.
@@A-tb4ul I think Korean team more stronger than team Kuwait in Fencing and I think in next competition when Korean team fence with team Kuwait, Korean team show them what they can do
So : To me the first touch is wrong The second one seems like the prise de fer is very low on the blade, so giving pary riposte to Kuwait doesn't seem absurd. Destroying the decor with your blase out of anger absolutely should be black carded
Let me get this straight, all the drama for two incorrect calls? I mean it sucks but you can’t say it’s intentional especially when there’s no video. BTW even if the referee is bad you should always respect your opponent because most of the time it’s ain’t even there fault
I was a fencer in that competition and the situation was definitely fishy, I definitely thought the Koreans would have won that. Nevertheless Kuwait actually went on to win the finals too
I was there too and I knew something felt fishy during this match. But for the final we had to give it to Kuwait as they made a huge comeback which is probably why they were able to catch up to HKG and take the win.
@@Grandsabre06 yeah we lost the finals, they fenced pretty well towards the end since they got the momentum back. The semis in individuals was also really suspicious the 15-14 bout between the Uzbekistan guy and my teammate was really sketchy
@@user-ie2el7di1p He played really well in the match but unfortunately lost because of points that were mistaken by the ref. Also was the guys name Hugo or something?
@@craigvandevooren2341 view "fencing's biggest open secret" it's pretty widely accepted Kuwait's star Alshamlan is blatantly paying off saber refs. this isn't a contested claim at all, it's just a thing that happens that everyone knows happens
Can't hear blade contact in this video... but it "looks' like a prise de fer from the left handed Korean... I would have given him the touch upon hearing any blade contact. (If no blade contact, I would have said initial attack short, riposte from Kuwaiti (good), couter-riposte from Korean (irrelevant).
@@craigvandevooren2341 At this distance and frame rate you cannot make that determination. As you state it, the action is not a prise de fer it would be a parried counterattack. Sadly, you state it incorrectly.
First, it's been 30 years since I was heavily involved in fencing (and then mostly in epee). Second, this is not the perspective to be judging good and bad calls by an official (I hate the fact that they started to be called referees rather than "Director Technique"). What may be obvious to someone sitting at the end of a piste cannot necessarily be seen by an official. So I would not care to say whether the official was right or wrong. Third, how did the official describe the actions? On the first disputed call the narrator says the touch should have gone to the Koreans because there was no blade contact. But watching the video slowly it could be said that the Kuwaiti fencer attacked and missed and the Korean fencer did not counter attack allowing the Kuwaiti to restart his attack, which he did before the Korean initiated his own making, in my view: Attack from the left, no. Reprise of the attack from the left, yes, counter attack from the right. Touch to the left. For the second disputed touch: Attack from the right, no, counter attack from the left, yes, remise of the attack not in time. Touch left. As for the display of temper by the Korean fencer, he needs to work on his self control. As for not shaking hands, bad form. They should remember that it was not the other team that made questionable calls. Lastly, I miss the days when it was touches against rather than touches for (the person with the most touches lost), double defeats in epee (had a few of those), when the side judges in saber could say "No touch, the side of the blade was used", and saber fencers could fleche!
So the score what 45-44 or so? So out of >80 calls, the ref (without the help of video) makes one call that is either a missed parry (or perhaps they're saying the foot landed - I'm not sure), and then another call, which to me, does look like a riposte. That's no reason to commit a black card offense. That's not even enough evidence to suggest biased refereeing on it's own. What about the other 43 touches that Kuwait scored?
Im sorry if I wasn’t able to show more evidence as I was also participating in the tournament at the time. Im not that sure but I think the score was 45 -42 to Kuwait.
One probably mistake, and one maybe not mistake out of 87 calls is not particularly bad. Your video strongly implies bias on the refs part (rather than just poor sportsmanship from the Koreans), was there other stuff that convinced you that the refs were biased other than just 2/87 calls you disagreed with?
@@JohnSmith-cx8co As I said I wasn’t able to take all the videos for the entire game. There were more than 2 of those touches that show the bias/mistake of the ref. Also about how you said I didn’t take the video of when Korean showed bad sportsmanship, I kinda already explained it in the video but also the video of the sword throwing was provided in the video. But for everyone that was witnessing the game would have seen how biased the ref was. Im very sorry for not being able to take the video of the whole 85 calls as I was also in the tournament participating. If you think their not biased its your opinion not mine.
@@Grandsabre06 Your video shows 10 of the 87 actions. One of them is probably wrong (though can you clarify, was the call "parry riposte" or "attack-no, attack touche", the Koreans foot is completely down before he hits, so I could see a case for attack-no), and the other one looks like a riposte to me. None of the other 8 actions you showed looked at all ambiguous. From this sample alone - which is 11% of the entire match, the reffing seems fine to me. Maybe you're saying that there were a bunch more bad calls in the match, but I don't get why you wouldn't include those actions rather than the 8 perfectly fine calls that you chose then.
Refusal to call AIP outside of box, allowing long holding attacks with jumps and all sorts of other shit combined with the latest tendency to try and seperate every action in the middle to avoid saying simultaneous has destroyed the sport. You've got about 10-20 years until it's removed from Olympics and replaced with other forms of sword sports.
"tendency to try and seperate every action in the middle to avoid saying simultaneous has destroyed the sport." -- +1000. They have dumbed down saber so much that I have trouble watching it now without laughing at "What is this @!#$?"
Sabre is the fastest weapon in fencing, the flech in sabre was banned to make refereeing more "easy" . Thanks to sport science athletes are faster then ever, making refereeing even more difficult. But it is by no means an excuse to behave unsportsmanlike and damaging properties. This goes straight against the core values of the fencing sport. It seems to be a sighn of the time we live in, that it is ok to behave intolerant.
Touch was parry riposte. Korean coach gets one verbal warning, then yellow and could also get black carded if repeated offence. At the end, korean team destroy property and refuse to shake hands, black card 100%. Referee was too nice.
First question - Maybe that midget in the beginning should have made an attack rather jumping up in the air. The second question is answered by that kid should not have beat down on the blade towards the guard. That's a parry. Beats should be on the top third to make it obvious. Black card was deserved.
For the first touch the ref gave the point because he thought they found the blade which doesn’t mean he lost the point for jumping. But for that second touch Im sure there are different perspectives from different people about this touch.
