@@NiliAoE2+1 to the OP. I went into the comments to see if someone said exactly what I was thinking and here I am! Good that you offer your opinion on each too. Watched a good bit of Wololo, the tech issues definitely affected how much though.
Seeing Nili back in the fold at EL Reinado made me feel even if for a fraction of a second that the world is alright. I know it is silly but to see all of the old gang in one place again, it made all of us happy. We miss Jordan, wish he was active, I am sure after witnessing the amazing event that El Reinado was, a lot of pros who have left the game are wishing the same. This game is like Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave. We Love This Game!
Clip of the month was amazing 🔥 That and Hera and Viper hyping up the crowd as they walked in with huge smiles on their face, that was great. I so wanted to see all 9 games, each game was just special and so tense. Great tournament, and great to see so many people there 👏
To me NAC 1 was the proof of concept that an offline tournament in Age of Empires was viable. If it wasnt for Nili putting up the money and hosting that series I'm not sure we would have ever gotten El Reinado but that doesnt excuse being a full week late with the wtf.
I was in the crowd when people started signing and I felt so overwhelmed too, unforgettable memories. Thank you for taking the time for pictures with everybody!
My favorite AOE2 event will always be the Nili's Apartment Cup, it's like AOE2 Christmas eve. I still hope one day Nili will have more time or helpers to bring it back.
Thanks for the summary, always appreciated! RBW was a fantastic event, absolutely loved it! Shame about the technical issues but such can happen! Those numbers are impressive, so hopefully RB gives it another go in the future! Good work with the casting, really enjoyed it and I think you and Memb have a great chemistry casting!
Very happy with RBW's numbers! Technical issues aside, there's no other event quite like it and the castle vibes are just insane! I really hope RB will continue doing these and also hopefully Riley will continue to host! PS: It was great to have you back in the casting booth Nili :)
I don't mind a discussion if Heras moves should be banned in the future, but absolutely should Hera not be critizised for it. Viper himself gave him a very strong and clear pass, saying it didn't matter and it wasn't a problem.
As a very high level CBA player, Ive seen the stack micro used everyday, and use it myself, and its just part of the game. Its just that only now Hera learned of it (via Cengo the numkber 1 CBA player). But its been used for years already.
Could you be more specific since when it has been used? Im intrigued to know since (while i dont play much these years, and i play on lobbies i find) i have never seen it before, ty in advance
I used to play aoe2 as a small child with my older brother and father. I had on two separate occasions later in life found the game and both times listening to the opening theme almost made me cry. Hearing that during the finals made me remember those the times when I rediscovered the game. Just pure emotion
In a world that changes too fast, I'm glad I was able to see Nili, DauT, JorDan, Riley, MbL and other players in one place. Gave me a sense of stability. Been playing this game non stop for 25 years, and am now coaching my 7yo to quickwall, use demos and trush. It's a sense of wholesomeness no other game has given me.
So happy you post these videos. I always look forward to your commentary to get an expert and fairly balanced view of what's been happening. Thanks for being such a great part of the aoe2 community!
Thanks for all that you do for AoE 2 Nili!! Too bad that people are getting hyped about unfortunate drama. Thankfully most of our community are mature enough to show respect to our players and each other. One of the many things I love about the AoE community. Hope RBW was an amazing time for you!
Is there anywhere a summary what were the problems with the production of RBW? What was/were the reason(s) for the delays and everything? Would be interesting, for me atleast.
Some internet issues maybe. It was unfortunate but we still had an incredible show. Honestly the shot when it cut to the casters standing over the castle courtyard was just so incredible
What a great tourney! Big shout out to Ornlu who carried those first two sets like he was one of Hera's paladin! He was preparing for a 100 or 200 viewers and next thing casting in front of 4000 for a couple hours. Honestly I would have given up on the stream that first day if he wasn't there.
That was such an awesome venue. I could watch drone shots all day. Id be curious if redbull goes back or finds another venue if they decide to host in the future.
The casting was 10/10 on day 2 with the deciders. The energy was electric and it seemed like Memb was thriving on his home turf. Heart breaking through to the top 4 was also great to see for the scene. Come on Red Bull let's see a castle in France or the UK!
100% agree the critique on hera for the micro is 100% BS and uncalled for. It is a known thing for years and all players and hosts agreed that it was allowed. Really dissapointed in the community there.
If you are gonna organize only a “finals” showmach for aoe4, with 1 player getting invited to finals (which is like Novak Djokovic getting invited to Wimbledon finals next year because he won this year), dont organize it at all. Huge disrespect to 50k that tuned in for those 2 hours and even more to other 50 that didnt even catch it due to no professionalism and 2 hour playtime of a single “finals” showmatch. Not to mention lag, bad video settings, and toxic chat. The fact the qualifier was more exciting than the finals says it all. I am sorry to ruin the positive energy all of you aoe2 fans have, but we shouldnt be delusional that the event was good from all aspects except technical failures. Our goal is to make AoE better and bigger as a whole, not undermine our own community. Shame on the people responsible in RBW, these are some really big mistakes that could have been avoided with minimal effort. The viewership mirrors lack of organisation, not lack of fans or quality of the game. I love this event, and love all AoE games and think highly of all of them, i want to see all of them do better in the future and thats is why i will not stay silent and hope for a change.
I don't think that being balanced is the only thing that should be considered wether a mechanic is good or bad. People don't like the stacking because it is not fun to watch
I feel like banning short distance patrolling would improve viewing in most ways. It’s also used to make thumb ring archers miss everything. To me, the game wasn’t balanced around it and every use of it looks stupid.
Overall Wololo blew my freaking mind, also aoe1 and aom were a blast. Best aoe event ever, hands down. Regarding Hera's micro, i think from now on it should be banned, simply becouse it makes 50 paladins fighting look extremely bad and weird, not just for us, epic fight enjoyers, but also new people who must be like 'wtf is that'
Man the technical difficulties were so sad and frustrating. I’m sure it cost the tournament a lot of viewers. However, I don’t think it was helped at all by the complete lack of communication especially on day 1. Just any sort of insight in those moments could’ve been huge
Sad for the other games that had a showmatch as a finals, such tiny amounts of time yet they did pretty well with numbers, imagine how much people wouldve aoe1 gathered, and so
this isn't Hera's fault, but if stand ground patrol changes melee armies to fighting at 3-5× efficiency defensively and makes it so you simply can't fight because of hitboxes, it needs to go before it catches on. this is a use it or lose level bug that affects feudal scout wars, timings and catching melee armies before upgrades, basic unit counters, and siege war sniping with ranged armies
Hera doesn’t deserve the critique he is getting. Viper is the goat. I’m not sure Hera will ever come close. I was super duper bummed with all the tech issues with so much on the line. Super grateful to redbull! Buying more product. Four things can be true at the same time.
By the books obviously Hera did nothing wrong. But, and I think we all know and have a sense for this, it was not really in keeping with the 'spirit of the game'. This concept is obviously nebulous and inherently impossible to provide a fix definition for it, it being a socially-constructed fact and liable to change (see the rise of tactical fouls in football, and their now wide acceptance, whereas before they would have been decried as foul play). But as this tactic is not widely used, and seems very strong and in a way not in keeping with a game in part deriving its success from a somewhat faithful representation of warfare in a vague historical past, for Hera to use it just seemed a bit off. Especially so as he was clearly the dominant and better player at those ways of playing the game which we all take to be playing AoE2 within the spirit of the game. It's just not very classy. The rules of tournaments of course should be as clear as possible and align with a common perception of how the game should be played to prevent these kinds of controversies happening. For when push comes to shove if there is a strong mechanic that might help win a game, and a lot of money is on the line, players will face a weak incentive not to use the mechanic. But this does not mean that one can't expect of participants in tournaments not to play 'fairly', 'honourably', 'in the spirit of the game', and particularly so when they are clearly the dominant player. Why employ a 'win at all costs' tactic when you're the best anyway? Grace it lacks, would I say.
Hera showed how broken Flemish Revolution was in a previous final and it got nerfed hard afterwards. I'm guessing the same intent is there from him, to broadcast this problem and see if the devs will take it as seriously as many people think it is.
Great job at Red Bull, Nili. You always do a great job at tournaments. This time was no exception. Now a text wall: I agree that hera did nothing wrong, but saying that the CBA micro exploit did not impact the outcome of any game is very misleading. I think there is an instinct on the part of many people to argue that it didn't affect the outcome of any game because they think that it helps the case that hera did nothing. I would argue that those two statements are logically independent. Hera did something that is not specifically banned and everyone agrees the admins would not punish. That means he did things within the understood rules and therefore did nothing wrong as a pro, who by definition plays for money. No part of that argument has anything to do with whether what he did affected the outcome. First of all, hera himself believed that it would impact the game because he spent time learning it and used it in the most important games of his life. He is the best player in the world precisely because he puts in the work finding these advantages. Also, every game can play out differently based on minor changes in positional advantages. Anything that affects the win probabilities affects the game even if the final outcome is the same. In the paladin vs halb game, sure Viper won in the end, but we are not being genuine if we claim that it couldn't have swung the game. It isn't just that paladins beat halbs, which they should in near equal numbers. First, the paladins, even when winning should have taken more damage given the usual melee collisions. Second, the halbs melted very fast and the speed at which losses happens matters! Finally, the damage to paladins were spread out instead of resulting in more unit losses, which we know matters because casters and pros constantly make a huge deal about keeping units alive even if they take damage. Just because Viper won that game doesn't mean it was not a potentially game changing move. The best player in the world pulled this out of his back pocket at that moment precisely because he thought it was one of the few things that could potentially give him enough of an edge in the engagement to create the chance of a come back. This was even worse in the Berber-Hindustani game, where even though hera had the engaged camel advantage 2-to-1 because some of viper's camels split off, viper was 2 upgrades ahead with faster attacking camels and castle arrow support. The point is not that viper should win that engagement. The point is that viper should not lose that engagement that badly that fast. If the fight occurs with the usual melee collision, the damage to hera's camels is not spread out and winning the engagement takes longer; long enough for imp camel to kick in before everything dies. Sure, viper may still lose. He may even be behind, but don't pretend that it doesn't affect win probabilities. Again, the best player in the world by FAR thought it was worth using in this situation. Now I personally believe that Hera would have won the SERIES no matter what. That's a different story because hera is the better player by far at this point and the series is a larger sample size. However, I can't take seriously any opinion that this didn't affect any GAMES. In fact, I think saying that doesn't respect hera's judgment as the best player in the world. There are many reasons people are mad about this. Some of those reasons are bad (e.g., hera haters, Viper fanbois). However, there are some very good reasons for hating this. It looks ridiculous and will turn this into a generic RTS with history-themed skins if it becomes the norm. I know a lot of people in the competitive community don't respect pleb opinions, but a lot of us like the game because it gives us immersion. People mention other strange things that are the norm in competitive play, but none of them looked truly as ridiculous as this. Yes, the game is not meant to be realistic, but it should preserve enough illusion to let us pretend with one eye closed and a bit of lying to ourselves. This just went too far. Also, the 20 archers on one tile thing is ridiculous too, so it should not be used as an example to normalize this sort of play. However, this one disturbed me even more viscerally. Part of what's frustrating in this community is that a few influential people can quickly shutdown even valid criticism by grouping them together with the invalid ones. I know some of that is because there are trolls and haters who want to use every opportunity to bring down people they already hated, but it is not without its downsides. It disenfranchises people with valid concerns. You know what that leaves at the end? A community that consists of only the two extremes: fanbois and haters. I do appreciate that Nili is at least acknowledging the validity of the middle ground voices.
The Redbull event was good but for me the reaction of the people who were there vs those watching on stream felt like two different tournaments. Missing 3/4 of the first day, the massive delays in the final, Starting the Final at 7pm GMT on a Sunday evening, The drafts just taking forever felt so pointless. Spent more time waiting for people to play the game than actual gameplay all this took the magic of it away for me. I would love to know how high the viewership was across the 3 days consistently instead of just peak vs another one of the other S-tier tournaments.
How is that the phosphoru micro is a different thing? What's different is the type of unit but the key feature in both cases is the clever use of the no attack stance, that's where the advantage is created. Arguably it's more broken with melee units because patrolling helps, whereas with cav archers you still have to manually move your units (that timing adds difficulty). I don't know if that should be fixed, and if so it would require messing up with the collision programing, that'd probably create other problems so not an easy task. Another solution for the melee case would be adding +0.5 range to halbs (or maybe a little bit of pass-through damage), but that would require heavy testing and it can compromise the overall balance of the game. That being said, Hera did nothing wrong and nothing new, there shouldn't be any drama; it's more of a technical discussion that should be in the dev's agenda.
I really hope the crazy view counts attract sponsors so that the game can be more sustainable in the future and smaller streamers/upcoming players have more of a shot. We also badly need it now that we don't have Leo DiCaprio's support 😢
Mir werden die Discord post von WDC nicht angezeigt, wenn ich auf den Link klicke. stattdessen: "Du bist an einem selstamen Ort. " Entweder gibt es hier keine Testnachrichten oder hast keinen Zugriff drauf.
The latest Red Bull was certainly a good show, but as an online viewer the production issues were very annoying to sit through. I can’t help but feel like the production team needed a dress rehearsal day to sort out technical issues before it mattered.
I'ts dishonest by Nili to show the camel clip instead of the clip with 20 paladins killing 60 halbs without losing even 1 pala. People do not know how to think so they give this thing a pass immediately like Nili did here. In core principle, this micro gives a unit full protection from a counter unit, in this case paladins were immune to halbs. If you support this mechanic, then you support the idea that units should have a defensive immunity stance against their counter units. By this logic you should also support that archers should get protection from skirms with this same defensive micro. It's quite simple when you lay it out like this. If Nili and others support this then fine, but at least be intellectually honest about what you are supporting instead of downplaying the incident.
@@NiliAoE2 my stated opinion is meant regardless of the elo, i think thats just a convenient statement to shut people up, so the cut off would be anybody that has lower elo than liereyy 😄
it's good to see aoe1/aoe4/aom getting tons of viewers, for only being granted a showmatch in an aoe2 event. this shows that aoe in general has still a lot more room to grow in the future if each game gets the attention it deserves
@@NiliAoE2 interesting, I watched all the way up to game 2 of GF and twitch never exceeded 15k, must have had a big RU-vid presence. Anyway, who cares, good news.
I don't think it should be controversial to say that Hera's use of the patrol exploit made the final MUCH less entertaining to watch and that he would've dominated anyway, making it an unnecessary shitty move. That aside, I am not convinced that it didn't affect the outcome, Viper gave up straight after one of those. Who knows, maybe we would've had a more exciting 5-2
It’s clear Hera is the best player, and perhaps it has no impact on the outcome. But it’s still distasteful to see cheap tricks like that in my opinion.
Hera does controversial things on the big stage so he can bring attention to things he thinks need fixed. Same story with the Flemish Revolution at an NAC
I can see why there are different opinions but when I saw Hera using that meat-grinder a second time and Viper obviously was not able to react in any way I switched off the stream because it felt like something got abused that really shouldn't be on an equal playing field. Furthermore because at no point I felt this was even needed. For me it seemed that is something that can't be answered and would decide any match. Not knowing this or not having this in a gameplan is a huge disadvantage and even if it didn't win the game the first time it was used it I felt like it must have done something to Vipers mindset.
Hera only used it when under pressure in games 3 and 4. I disagree with it didn't win him any game. Viper lost his camels faster before the upgrade to imp camel. Don't say he would have won the game. Because Hera also played smarter that game. But he could've still had a chance. Plus it must be frustrating.
@@yveskelders6840 I don't know if it changed the outcome of any game since hera is so good, but it certainly affected the probabilities of those outcomes. That should be bad enough. Furthermore, it looked absolutely ridiculous and killed immersion. If it becomes normal, then we will have a generic RTS with history-themed skins, not the AOE2 we know and love. I don't think hera did anything wrong since pro players should do everything within what they understand to be the rules, but this was really bad from fan perspective. Also, hera is the best player in the world. I think the people saying this trick did not impact the games should ask themselves if the best player in the world randomly pulls out new tricks on the biggest stage if he believes it will not affect his chances of winning. It absolutely impacted the win probabilities for games even if it didn't affect who won the series.
Thought the RBW show was the best so far, although the maps and tourney format were poor, matches were not memorable, extremely boring games. Hera exploit was very disappointing and put a sour taste on the final win
@@NiliAoE2 Those were actually great, even if I was rooting for Tatoh. Others not so much, maybe EW is just very snowbally. Great show anyway, wish I could have been there!
Those two were good without being anything to write home about. The Sicilian game excepted. Yeah I think just a bit snowbally too and the maps just didn't do it for me not enough variation. I get that they want fast gameplay and aggression but I think tactically didn't leave as much room as I would have liked
I am sorry to say that this was probablyt the worst RB till today. AoE2 tournament with other games showmatches (so not really a franchise event as the previous one was), too many technical difficulties, ridiculous long waiting times at some points (even during sets) and in the chat a complete mayhem and disrespect for the other games in the franchise that are not AoE2. I cannot really recommend outside of how good the castle looked, AoM final and the two sets you recommended.
disrespect was when aoe4 players ignored their finals and come to ask "when finals" just to learn it was yesterday. what did you expect from aeo2 fans if yours behave like that. may be a few msg were negative, but most msgs were just discussion...
@@Dmitrii-q6p It was a festival of deleted messages on saturday. And a lot of nonsense on friday and sunday. And normally Aoe4 fans behave better than Aoe2 gatekeepers/purists. I am not sure what you are saying regarding the "when finals" because I just ignored the chat at some point after realizing there was no point, but I could understand a complain from aoe4 fans for having the final other day.
Who are those to critisize micro that were present for years? knights with no attack sliding into back of the archers. etc. archers stacked at 1 tile - at least were OP. Or we should ban Viper for quick wall abuse, quick walls also look wierd.
9:25 The criticism Hera is receiving for this is akin to the criticism sometimes thrown at video game speedrunners for "cheating" when all they are doing is utilizing glitches to sequence break or perform actions more quickly. If it's something anybody with the game can do without the need for external devices and it isn't explicitly disallowed in the rules for the competition, then it's not cheating and should not be controversial, period. It boils down to people not understanding the context or in some cases just wanting to try and use any available means to discredit the achievement of a player they dislike.
Although in the current case, I would agree that it shouldn't be controversial, your reasoning is completely lacking any foundation. Imagine an extreme: a glitch where at any time, either player could to press two keys to win the game. What would that cause for competition? This is an extreme, you can use your own imagination and go incrementally from here towards milder cases.
I agree. It is provocative and perhaps should encourage a swifter patch to deal with, but in no way compromises the integrity of the competition@@mynameizmaineimis1880
@@mynameizmaineimis1880 My comment included the clause "and it isn't explicitly disallowed in the rules for the competition". Such an extreme glitch could and likely would be banned in competition by the tournament organizers or by the speedrunning community. Arbitrarily deciding which glitches are and are not allowed to be exploited is a very standard part of the process in every video game competition, which to me seems like a pretty sturdy foundation to build reasoning upon.
As the best player of the world Hera should be ashemed. For me this is not a behaviour of a champ. Hera showed his personallity vs a teammate. You are completely wrong Nili. Good you stoppen playing.
So if I park my pala in stand ground patrol mode around my trebs, there is no way for my opponent to stop me from removing his entire base? This doesn't seem balanced, nor fair.
@@threeprongedfork7061in phosphoru's video he points out that this makes siege impossible to click when stacking. Just because the pros haven't saved the strat for a tourney final yet doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. In the melee case the situation is "you can never engage this efficiently" or do it yourself
@@younglust-l6j Viper could have done it himself, and if it's really so broken maybe he should have done it and could have won a few more games. If he and other players chose not to do it out of some weird sense of "class" or "honor" and then lost games they could have won if they had done it, they have nobody to blame but themselves. In a competition you should use every single option and advantage available to you, and I have a lot of respect for Hera for using it in situations where it made sense rather than deliberately hamstringing himself. He takes the competition more seriously than any of the other top players, which is why he used that tactic and why he's #1 right now. That's not to say other players don't take it seriously, but he takes it to a whole different level looking for every advantage he can find.
Its a bug and its unfair. Viper had better upgrades in his camels, and his in the castle range. Why he used it in the final? Why not in previous rounds? That could be the 2-2 and can change the final... Its so unfair
The imp camel tech came way too late and also he split his army to fight Hera's camels and camel archers. And "why not in previous rounds" argument is so silly. Everyone keeps tricks and strategies up their sleeves as late as possible. See Viper's use of Sicilians against Lierey. He said he would've preferred to use it later.
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rMyp2JOAYuY.html I really woul like a tournament format where the finals arent so "boring" (b.c. of heras utter dominance) - Hidden Cup Final was all the same. Its not really entertaining to watch. Also I think the micro should not be in the game (or used) - or rather that the removal of the colision model for the patrol should not be there - this is what it makes so OP imo.
