I'm always frustrated that Merry & Pippen never raised the possibility with Fangorn or with each other. Early portions of the Fellowship even describe the trees of the Old Forest as moving about and wanting Hobbits to stay where they were put. "Old Man Willow" seems very ent-like, and the whole point of the Hedge on the east of Buckland was to keep the forest at bay. I was hoping this video would at least mention the possibility, but at least the "walking ent" of Sam's tale was discussed.
I always suspected the shifting trees in the Old Forest were Huorns and Old Man Willow an Ent that has gone very treeish. Since Fangorn Forest and the Old Forest were once part of the same huge forest, they could have been isolated there once the trees in between were cut down.
In light of the points rasied in this video, I start to suspect that the creatures in the old forest were likely not ent-wives but huorns. It’s possible that if the hobbits made the connection and talked to Treebeard, it might only have gotten his hopes up😢
At 45 years old I became a father for the first time. I promised myself that, even in this modern age with all it's distractions and foolishness, i would give my son a childhood like i had growing up. I have come to realize that time is gone. Lost in the mists. Even Scouting America, would still a fine and admirable organization, is not the same group i belonged to. I understand the sadness of the Ents, and the desire to believe these things are not gone but simply "lost" somehow.
I liked that Sam had mentioned hearing a story about a possible Ent sighting. As the male Ents apparently never made it as far north as The Shire, that sighting was more likely an Entwife. Being female, they'd have been smart enough to know that trouble was coming and returning to Fangorn might not be the safest option, or even feasible. They'd also have been smart enough to know that heading East wasn't wise either, so they went north. I figure they ended up north of The Shire. Either that or they were given a safe OUT if things got bad. Prolly doesn't hurt to have a Vala on your side. 😊
Thanks for making this video. My thought is that there might be actual Ents in the Old Forest. That forest is related to Fangorn, supposedly. And I think if the Entwives were there, they'd have made themselves known to the Hobbits. The Entwives liked agriculture, so they wouldn't have hidden in the woods, but would have been involved with the farmers. If anyone knows for sure if there are Ents or Entwives in the Shire, though, you might ask Farmer Maggot. I bet he knows. Unrelated: I just love the CGI for the Ents in the LotR. It makes treebeard's eyes look like blobs of dried tree-sap, or tiny pools of trapped water. Such beautiful detail.
I like to think Aragorn and Arwin's son sets off on an adventure to collect any palantirs remaining and tracks down the ent wives. I enjoy picturing a couple ents in a garden in Minas Tirith's courtyard telling stories to the children of the nobles and stuff.
I’ve heard this telling several times but this was the best. Both the details of what is, and is not, known but also the meaning behind the Entwives being lost. Thank you.
This is exactly what I felt when reading the books my first time. All of what treebeard was saying seemed like hopeful wishing. And I felt like Tolkien was saying that the world will go on without the ents and that the march is their last act they will do to fight the darkness
I have a theory, though perhaps it would defeat the point to the story you gave at the end. Regardless, it goes something like this: After Sauron burned their gardens the entwives fled. Despite the entwives being powerful, no doubt about that, perhaps they are not as quick to anger as the ents. I doubt they would join the fight against Sauron nor would Sauron chase them down and waste a large portion of his army in the effort. In their grief they would move away from the war, it matters not were, and build new gardens. Perhaps more hidden from view this time as to prevent the tragedy from repeating. Fear and sadness from the loss of their old gardens that still grip the hearts of the entwives prevents them from seeking out the ents. While the ents were free to make the journey that most likely took them years unless there was something rushing them, the entwives are most likely unwilling to do the same out of worry for their new gardens. I feel this explanation might make the entwives feel heartless but I think their priorities might just differ from those of most humans. We already knew how important their gardens were to them, important enough to separate from the ents, so this is just another step on the path that branches off.
I think it’s also important to note that although there will probably be no reunion between the ents and the entwives, there still is a tiny bit of hope that they may. The possibility isn’t 0%
Tolkien's letter about the Entwives being enslaved reminds me about the logistics of feeding his army. The Sea of Nurn(or is it Nurnen?)in southern Mordor provided the farmland he used, along with human and orc slaves, to feed his armies. With the Entwives knowledge of agriculture, I could see him enslaving some, or all of them, and using them along with his orc and human slaves to work his farmlands.
I'd say they are most likely all dead. Sauron would have had no qualms about turning them into firewood. Perhaps a handful of them escaped somewhere and then died off of other causes. The Ents loved them so much that they refuse to accept that they are dead until they see their corpses in front of them.
One of the things I find most interesting is that the servants of Aule and Yavanna seem to consistently find themselves at odds with each other. Aule created the Dwarves, and Yavanna created the Ents. Sauron was originally a servant of Aule, and Yavanna was the one who INSISTED Gandalf go to Middle Earth. There's a repeating pattern of someone serving or being associated with Aule eventually coming into conflict with someone serving Yavanna.
As always I appreciate your thoughtful investigations. So happy you addressed the conversation between Sam and Sandyman. I have always wondered if an entwife was seen by his cousin or, if perhaps, this was an ent who was wandering in search of them. Interesting that this area of the shire borders on the last fringes of Beleriand, where a remnant of the Sindar dwell - a folk who might appreciate both ent and entwife. I had also thought that some entwives might have been taken by Sauron, and poisoned by his machinations to spawn trolls, similar to the initial creation of the trolls in mockery of the ents by Morgoth. But your speculation that some might have been enslaved to improve the agricultural production of the lands Sauron had under till (around Lake Nurnen perhaps) is a provocative theory. They might have done so for half an age before (perhaps again) succumbing to the conditions of slavery, which must have been intolerable to their free spirits. I also have wondered if Bilbo's poem about Aragorn might imply something about the entwives - "not all those who wander are lost". Finally, perhaps some comfort might be taken in Galadriel's parting words to Treebeard, where she tells him they may meet again, but only when the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again, in the willow-meads of tasarinan. While the raising of Beleriand and Nan-Tathren might seem a fanciful thing, Galadriel is not known for speaking fancifully, although this may be a reference to some kind of reset or replay of history on a cosmic scale that she has some insight into. If the land can be so raised, couldn't the entwives be found? Cheers! JW
In Lord of the Rings Online the Developers give their own theory of what happened to the Entwives. Goldberry tells your player character that long ago Tom gave 8 of the Entwife sisters sanctuary within the Old Forest "to keep them protected from evil", 8 flowers bloom where the sisters were last seen within the Old Forest, and Tom will not speak of their fates, even to Goldberry.
How would Tolkien know everything about what happened. He only translated some texts and maybe added some twists here and there but he was not there like some of us. And even we don't know everything and have forgotten a lot
Random idea off of Treebeard's lament. He said their beards have grown long. What if the Entwives trimmed their beards? As in pruned them. This would have kept them more youthful and flourishing. Perhaps they then nurtured the trimmings into new Entings...
This is my first video and I've just subscribed. Brilliant analysis. Thank you. Edit: The only part you didn't mention was what entwives look like. Treebeard doesn't know. Their natures and duties seem to have shaped them into something quite different from an Ent, to the point that Treebeard doesn't know what they look like anymore. So even if they did survive and migrate away from the brown lands, it's unlikely they'd be recognised as Entwives anyway. So the moving tree that Sam mentions was probably not an Entwife but more likely an Ent still searching for them. Given what we know of their natures (and what Treebeard said about them becoming bent and browned by the harsh sun), Entwives are probably more bush-like in appearance than an Ent.
Ents are slow and hesitant taking their time with everything-until they see you burn their trees. the they can suddenly move with great, speed and might.
In the chapter Many partings, Treebeard and Galadriel meet. Treebeard says that they will never meet again. Galadriel says "Not in Middle earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the spring" Perhaps this is a reference to the mending of the world. At that time perhaps the ent wives and ents will meet again🤔.
Its funny. I never read the books, but watched the movies as a kid in theaters and have been interested in worldbuilding for most of my life. My world that im working on currently deals a lot with loss through time. It was sparked by a book of essays by Astrid Lindgren that i read long ago where she spoke about the loss of their childhood land, how none of what meant everything to her existed anylonger and that it had passed on into memory. The life that was so real to her once, was now only memories for her to keep. It resonated with me so much even though im still relatively young and still have plenty of life to live. The world that once seemed so whole and set in stone for me is slowly falling apart to decay of time. For most of my life there were two things that were as certain as the universe and that was that in the yellow house next door lived our neighbors and in my parent's little cozy house lived my parents. Then the neighbor husband got sick and died. Then my parents got divorced. Then the widow set the little yellow house up for sale and now my old dad lives in my whole childhood world all alone until someday he too will pass. And then new people will live in these two houses that were my whole world as a child, in the countryside with its bog and forset and lakes and birds and cows and foxes yipping in the night and it will no longer be my childhood home, but somebody elses. Maybe they will chop down the trees i climbed. Maybe they will remove the treehouse my dad built for us. Maybe they will paint the little yellow house next door another color. The nature surrounding the houses has changed since i was little. It has changed a lot, but i dont mind it. It used to be a cow field. Then some biologists discovered a rare animal in the area and the whole field was protected land from then on. It has grown thick and wild since my childhood, but i like it like that even tbough the field on which i used to play as a child is now a forest. But the thought of the houses being changed, disappearing or inhabiting other people is weirdly sorrowful for me. There are many other feelings of loss too. The way a city i lived in for awhile has fundamentally changed thanks to a rebuilding of the city center. Most of my memories feom that time are only real in my mind now, as almost all buildings and places i used to frequent have been torn down or changed. And so on. Life doesnt wait for anyone. Nothing is constant. Everything changes all the time. For some it is easier to roll with the changes, but i never found it easy. It always did something to me that i cant quite express. So i tried to express it through my worldbuilding and my stories in there. Accepting that this is how life is, but also exploring the grief that comes with changes you have no control over. It feels good to see that someone as wise as Tolkien also exploring these themes. I hope i can learn extra wisdom from him too. It is a universal experience for all of us so i suppose it makes sense that it is a topic visited by many. I hope someday i find my peace with it too.
This was a really beautiful video, I do enjoy your content. I am going to add something though. It's OK to miss the point some times. I know Tolkien confirms they are lost and there would be no reunion in the histories but I for one still hold that in distant lands to the east and south, Entwives still garden and take care of nature. One day, in the great wilds far from humans, an ent or two may find themselves planting their roots next to trees that seem familiar, even if they don't know why. Perhaps, in time, their roots entwine, the mycelium connects and both ent and entwife awake pleasantly surprised. I know it is soft, but it's what I like to imagine.
I always thought it would be interesting if a few ent wives did go south to ithilien since there were plenty of natural herbs and fruiting trees that grew in those woods. I think the books hints that men planted them but it would still be cool in my eyes.
I can’t believe you made a video about this and omitted the most significant development that came out since. There is a post, and I’m sure Google would turn it up, of a fan who presented a hand drawn map of middle earth late in Tolkien’s life, and JRR himself annotated it and declared that the forest on the shores of Lake Rhûn in eastern Middle Earth was where the Entwives were eventually rediscovered. This is a far more satisfying end to this story, and if the teller can be trusted, is 100% Canon.
Gosh how if haveloved to see lil entlings frolicking about the shire at the end. Alas such a thing i suppose was a different era, some casualties were enviable.
I think the "real lost-ness" of the entwives is necessary for their narrative impact. They are not simply lost to a character in a book, they are well and truly lost to all of us; the fact there there is simply no answer is borderline intolerable to humans, to the point that we theorize and invent stories about where they might be, to cope with the fact that despite never technically existing, they are genuinely lost.
Interesting. I always thought of them as needing to disappear so as to not exist today. In the same way that the books that Tolkien wrote, in the story have an origin of being passed down as the Red book of West March, which he found and relays to us, the reader. I felt that he tried to weave his story as a history of our story. You can see the behaviours and even some physical properties of the different races in our own time all intermingled now as human. To example Elves, they diminish, and outside Tolkien's work (if you can find it and I am sure he did, if I did, as did the British scholar who’s work I read) the oldest stories of Merlin describe him as the last Elf, young and persecuted.. Where would Ents fit today? So instead they were definitively written out of our time. The book I refer to, was like a non-fiction text book that both carefully presented the earliest texts of Authurian legends, and analysis or context of them. The relationship to Tolkien was my view, and not expressed by the research team. I regretfully forgot it’s name.
I think Tolkien understood that writing heroic people into a story gives them a supernatural quality by virtue of putting them to the page. E.g. making the protagonist something "less" than human (basically a tiny, unambitious person) makes a hobbit actually "feel" more like a real person than a human would in the same role. It feels like it's you actually trying to do these things that frodo does. The ents fullfil a similar role. The "last march of the ents" paradoxically feels more real (despite being anthropomorphic trees) because there are no more ents and there can't ever be. Their situation is desperate because of they lose, that's the end of them forever. Fictional battles don't normally feel that way.... real battles do.
You know it's bad when the guy within who's brain lies the entire world and all its cultures and all its histories and godly pantheons STILL doesn't know Of course, I like the idea that he treats the ent-wives like soldiers who don't return home and whose remains are never found. Lost. MIA. Not dead. No closure.
Robert, you do such a wonderful job with your videos. I think Tolkien himself might have liked this one, because you showed the applicability within a timeless work. I'm reminded again and again of why Tolkien is my favourite author when I watch these.
An even sadder possibility is that the entwives are living somewhere, perhaps north of the Shire, but they do not want to be found. We can imagine potential reasons. Perhaps they regret teaching men how to use and abuse plants and have decided to retreat from that world. Perhaps they don't want to produce offspring with the ents, children who would have to see a world becoming more and more industrialized. Perhaps they've rejected the ents for a life all of their own, as indeed a more drastic next step after their initial separation. Perhaps Yavanna, their creator, has a plan afoot, and they are waiting (they are patient!) for the moment to reunite and recreate a new world in which plants are no longer subservient to the rest of creation. There, at the end of history.
Thinking on behalf of the entwives, those who survived had to flee great distances from their now destroyed home. All that they loved and nurtured, gone and turned to a scorched deserted plane by sauron. Worried they would be followed back to their husbands and this bring an incredible evil to them, they simply couldn't go back. So, desperate to find somewhere safe and free from the demonic influence, they searched endlessly for a place they can begin again. But in doing so had traveled such far distances in completely unfamiliar territory. So theyre just as lost to find their lovers again. And the trauma that they endured, how could they possibly know when itll be safe to return? I think theres more than just feeling sad for their loss, since theres still an underlying hope that they will be reconnected again, for the future is unwritten and impossible to know for sure.
To me the Entwives are not the same as other losses in tLotR. They are more than just a lost item or a lost friend or family member. They are are a loss of companionship, intimacy, love and gentleness but even more a loss of future. There is no return from this. There is no second chance, no hope. Just the end. So it also can be a loss of purpose, since there is nowhere to go from that point on, since there is no future left to go to. A thought that’s hard to bear. Incredibly sad.
I doubt I'm the first to theorize this, and would bet some people have brought up counterpoints to my theory, BUT, my ongoing theory is that the Ent wives were captured and disfigured into Trolls much like a handful of the early elves were made into orcs and goblins. Particularly 2 reasons: 1. Trolls are said to be a creature made in a sort of mockery or mimicry of Ents. 2. Assuming trolls aren't malformed ents, that leaves us with another mystery of 'Where did trolls come from'? Because you can't simply say "Oh Melkor / Sauron created them". Evil CANNOT create in Tolkiens works, only corrupt. And since they aren't said to be like orcs or goblins.. where else would they come from if not Ents?
I think you're missing the point to wonder where they are and in fact she'll look for them is to relate to the ends in such a way that you become like the Ents in that way
You know the famous Elvish shipbuilder that built ships with wood with qualities never seen before and how quickly he rushed out of Middle Earth when the ents went searching for the entwives once more? The original bearer of Gandalf`s ring? Me too... hehehehehehehehehe
Entwives were used as fuel. Just as Ents in Fangorn forest would, if it wasnt for their sudden outburst of aggression. Apparently Ent women werent as aggressive at defending their surroundings.
Groot is an Enting, confirmed. First the Entwives, and then the Ents, simply phased through a dimensional portal into another universe where they became a spacefaring race. Memories of their lives in Middle Earth fading into the past.
No doubt some died, a few made their way to the shire and such, but anyone who has had a deep bond with someone knows you can feel a loved ones life It also says in history, perhaps some met each other and passed in peace together, or some forbidden wood not to be recorded etc
I love seeing and listening to your progs!!!!❤😊 I think the problem with reading Tolkiens' works as a young stripling is that it shows how mundane the real world is!😢 Middle Earth is a much more interesting place!!!😊
I wonder. What if the Hobbits were to go and ask Tom Bombadil. Would he know I wonder? "Old Man Willow" in the story sounds like a Houron to me and all the trees of the Old Forest sound rather Entish.
One of the most disappointing to me aspects of the Jackson trilogy was his depiction of the Ents. However, never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined them to be mammalian, as one piece of artwork you use here would seem to suggest.
My dark theory is that some of them were taken in order to make more Trolls. Cause trolls and orcs procreate, which is horrifying. And yes they do have female orcs and trolls, they are just very few in number and probably kept as breeding stock. I imagine alot of the women from the Sea of Nirn are used as breeding stock also to make more orcs. 2 halfbreeds are following the party when they are in Bree. Men that look like orcs. And in the books Ents are not as tree like. Some become more treeline, but Treebeard is described as basically a huge man with bark for skin and greenish hair. They have root like toes on huge feet. But they are not trees like in the movies. And trolls are breed from Ents.
I think the saddest part is when Treebeard meets the hobbits and gets excited that they may have seen the entwives...even after hundreds of years he still had hope he would see them again 😢
I wondered if Entwives leaving and never coming back is an euphemism for feminism. Or at least, the way an older generation of men might see it. Not in a sense that women have completely disappeared, but that men don't know how to reach them anymore. Or then it's nothing of the sort.
It gives me the sense that the entwives are more compassionate and less implacable. Less rigid and more willing to bend to their situation. The ents possess physical characteristics to mirror their mental and emotional characteristics, and there are many types of wood with a wide range of properties, like pliable but strong Ash wood
@@saraha8219absolutely. with the implicatation that the Entwives were among us throughout our history of agriculture, [slain by the Green Revolution and modern agribusiness in the 1970s and 80s, RIP]
Just like everything else disappeared, the entwives taught us the joy of gardening, the dwarfs the joy of forging, and the elves the joy of arts. It is the age of man.
@@thelandlord111 Yeah.. but now where are all the human maidens? 🫤"equality without distinction" they shouted - before they went away to learn new things What is a w0men? We (of Western society) ask ourselves now a days🤨
@@NPC-bs3pm Humans aren't meant to live in segregated, separated groups. Ents/entwives should have remained together. The longer people are apart/don't share information, the more distance/distrust/misinformation they experience.
That may just be the words He had in mind while writing about the Entwifes. But i think IDGs conclusion, that we are missing the point if we are wondering, is not true Tolkien gave us a hint that there is at least one moving tree close to the shire and he never said 'the entwifes? Oh yeah, no the are all dead' so in my option wondering where they went and hoping to some day see them, even tho we wont nor will the ents is the point, the same kind of feeling returning soldires have when they come home to wayt and see how is left, alwas hoping so see one more familliar face and wondering where the others went, what ways the they had to go and where they rest now...
It never ceases to amaze me how someone that witnessed do much horror and experience so much loss has gone to create one of the most optimistic tales, where the great evil that longed to dominate and reshape the world was defeated not by military genius or "heroic sacrifice" but by friendship, camaraderie and the will to go on, in the name of all the beautiful things in this world. The songs, the food, the trees and the fields.
I could see it as an allegory on loss, grief, and even denial. Perhaps they really are truly gone for good, we certainly have more evidence for that than their continued existence. Treebeard's response - the almost angry denial that they are not dead - that's not uncommon for someone in denial of the loss of their loved ones.
Inpersonally think that they are not dead but still gone for good, many pointed out the living trees already and i think it likely that the entwife eventually rooted down so to spek and became no more then spirited trees, whitch would make it all the more sad ..
I think that the theme might be that dealing with loss without certainty of death can be as hard or harder than grief. Many people go missing and never get found. In war, from unhappy homes, or just on the way to school or work. The plight of those left behind is awful.
Ents: "Thank you, kind Elves, for teaching us to speak." Elves: "Of course, great shepherds of the forest! What do you wish to day?" Ents: "Can you please be quiet and let us sleep?" Elves: "...."
Honestly one of my most pondered questions in LotR, i love the ents and treebeards description of the entwifes and i feel soooo sorry for all the ents ...
It surprises me that Yavana creator of the Ents did not or does not intervene to save her created children. Aule protected the Dwarfs, but they never go extinct until the forth age. If some wives remain, why doesn't she get Manwe to send eagles to seek them out and send them to Fangorn to the Ents can rub leaf and branchs to get some new seedlings.
@@The-Mstr-Pook that is an interesting question, and i just read up on her just to not miss anything but actually i rhink you gave the awnser yourself, the creation of the ents where in direct response to the creation of the dwarfs, because Yavanna had the forsight that all things living in the earth needed protection from the dwarfs. So i guess if they enter the world togethere they also should leave it togethere, Yavanna migh have forseen that the age of the Dwarfs is almost at an and let her creation fade out as well (givin that ents live far longer that fading neded to start sooner) that would fit nicely into the working of Eru Ilúvatar, both dwarf and ent had forfilled there part both in the world and in Erus plans, so they move on out of middle earth and Arda itself...that would be in line with Tolkiens kind of writing Thanks for your inputt, was a good question to thunk about
Anyone who's estranged from a loved one, specially if she passed away during that time, can more than sympathize with the Ents: you can actually feel their pain...
It really is a reflection of modern culture to be honest. Modern men are lamenting the fact that young women no longer want to get married, and have children. That they are choosing to not date and just follow their own path.
I feel like much of tolkien's stories have a strong element of grief in them. Many modern stories have a hero who saves the day and all is like it was. I like how tolkien sets this up in such a way that some things can't be fixed. Some things have irreparable consequences. It makes the story more colorful and real.
I think that was rooted in Tolkien's own tragic youth. He lost both his parents before he was ten and then as the video said most of his friends in WW1. He even said that the central theme of the LOTR was 'death'.
Tolkien, as a soldier, knew that even if the good guys win, the world is worse off than if there was never a war. Not to say evil shouldn’t be opposed, but rather that even the best possible war against the worst possible foe is terrible. In a way The Lord of the Rings is a steelman argument for war: Is war worth it with an objectively evil foe and objectively good allies. Tolkien’s answer to that is “Yes, but for the unlucky few on the front lines, barely.”
There is plenty of modern fantasy literature filled with drama and angst. Take a look at Robin Hobb for instance is that's your cup of tea. Just as there are plenty of older stories where the hero saves the day at all is like it was.
My headcanon is that in the 4th age some extra motivated ent went out and found then in the old forest... maybe even quickbeam, or some other, hasty, newcomer.
I like to think, keeping the tragic theme of the Ents, is that some Entwives were found, but none from before Sauron burned their garden. Those from then were lost or became tree-ish. It may be small comfort to the older Ents like Treebeard but at least some comfort.
The tail of the Ents and the Entwives is almost a tragedy seeing as they're really not that far apart. Too bad Merry and Pippin never talk to Sam or his cousin about it
