What If Eastern Rome Never Fell? - Rome's neighbors | Alternate History 

Bruh ok

I have a question, Does the Ottoman Empire exist in this timeline?

@@bayern_3234 Nope. The Turks never even settle Anatolia. The ones that stay back in Central Asia are of course still there in places such as Turkmenistan. Just like in our timeline. The ones that leave settle in modern day Iran and Azerbaijan. In Iran they assimilate into the local culture, but Azerbaijan is Turkic culturally in this scenario. Again, just like in our timeline.

What about germany wouldn't they not exist because the crusade's never happened so the tutonic order would never exist?

@@comrademakno Pretty sure if not the Teutons someone else (possibly German too) would go to pacify the old prussian tribes anyways

At least.you're not Moldavia...

Hungary be like

But poorest in Europe = very well off compared to the world

@@Incidental104 well i guess there is that

@@Gamingmaster-jv9zj Moldova is poorest nation in Europe by GDP per capita (4551$) To put that in perspective it’s 5.8 times higher than Ethiopia(778$), one of sub sharan Africa’s wealthiest nations (after South Africa and Namibia)

amen

I did leave it a little vague, but yes the Hashemites are certainly a great contender. Just a royal family willing to adopt a less radical form of Islam which the British could be more tolerant of in their protectorate.

Yes, Ethiopia should have a close relationship with the Republic. Since all three countries share such a close relationship now the issue of Ethiopia damming the Nile which would happen in the alternate world as it is happening irl would go about more smoothly.

@@younes2415 israel is deemed by god

Bruh Roman literally would hate Israel they literally tired to burn their cities I am surprised you would like them

@@the3zoooz1 he ain't the brightest..

‘Satisfying’ he said 😂 u guys would get destroyed if Roman’s still exist

As a person of morals, it’s a very satisfying scenario when u colonizers leave Palestine once and for all.

Southern Bulgaria was already a part of Rome in my first version of the scenario. And no cities in the northern part of Bulgaria which I added would have a population large enough to join the top 10. Antioch however (which is within the tiny southern region that was added in this video), would replace Pyrgos (Burgas is it's name in OTL's Bulgaria). So yes the 10th largest city is now Antioch, not Pyrgos.

In my part 2 I showed them as being a small minority in the province of Epirus, most of them having been assimilated. But in all honesty I regret that decision, and find it not that realistic. I now think they would either still exist in Albania, in some form. Living along-side Greeks, and having been accepted by the majority Greek Romans, much like the Armenians. Or they could have been completely assimilated into the majority Greek culture and language, like how the Bulgars probably would have been, and were in my scenario. One of those two.

😢 I'm really sorry. We truly live in a worse timeline.

perserve your christianity, learn your language if you don't know it, have a lot of kids, read the prophecies of saint paisios, they seem to be happening when greece retakes anatolia is likely they will protect the christians in the middle east africa ect perhaps assyria would benefit from this

@@TheHunterOfYharnam greece will never retake Anatolia wtf you talking about

@@shishkebab1041 Yes it will, turkey will attack Greece and it will be destroyed by both nato and russia

@@TheHunterOfYharnam never turkey and greece are both poor and in debt nations and both in NATO

But Bosnia was Catholic LOL

Bosnia was Catholic as well as Orthodox.

Bosnia still no share catholic or orthodox religion...why the Hungarian crusaders attacked Bosnia ....whay bosnia need vlah culture...

Appreciate you sticking around man!

if they wanted to cooperate with the Serbs in the 13th century, maybe even today Hagia Sophia would be a church, they wanted the Turks, here they are now

good question specially if Bulgaria in this scenario is East Roman

Maybe they were to heavy drunk to being assimilated

@@crnidjordje8340 you guys just conquered what remained of Eastern Rome barring Constantinople and weakened it severely leading to its fall, I love Serbia but that is not a great take lmao

@@panayiotisxenakis277 We did not even conquer, we liberated our parts from the Roman Empire. Just imagine if they conducted politics properly, today the Balkans would be the center of the world with our pure common population and Orthodoxy. There is nothing to be angry about, but it is true, great and cordial greetings to the Greek brothers.

Based

Of course you exist, Northern-Roman Mapping.

@@Neatling Oh cool, i am thraco-greek now. Rest in racism slavs

@@brm5844 bulgarian are largely thracogreek slavs anyways

@@TheHunterOfYharnam don't know about the greek part but yes we are thracian

@@brm5844 thrace and thracians were completly hellenized for thousands of years by the time bulgarians came they were greeks and mixed with other greeks they had taken part in every major event in greek history from the peloponnesean wars to the expansion of the greek macedonian empire the diadochi wars and the byzantine era also let's make something clear bulgaria ISN'T thrace greece has much more rights in thrace and thracians than bulgaria has and the thracians still are greeks too even tho some were genocided by the bulgarian slavs and others were assimilated bulgaria is bulgaria not thrace it just has some grecothracian ancestry now that we cleared that i believe greece and bulgaria should have friendly relations bulgaria has tried to annex thrace and macedonia from greece or the byzantine empire from the 6th century till now and it ended up nowhere only thing that happened was dead on both sides especially in modern times bulgaria lost the second balkan war both world wars and the cold war its just better if we solidify our borders as they are split skopje because monastiri is a greek city in the south west and there is a greek minority and bulgaria takes the north eastern side of skopje and rebulgarize the bulgars of skopje who think they have anything to do with macedonia we don't really care about thrace even tho we consider eastern rumelia important to us at least either way the less enemies and hostility there is in the balkans the better turkey is still the main enemy they don't only want our lands but also all of bulgaria don't forget that

Abkhazia and south ossetia is a big lie, like north macedon.

@@davexorus9836 you mean FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA

@@projectember728 yes exactly.

This world wouldn't be ideal for many Jews just because they wouldn't be alive or be a Jew at first place. Ottoman Empire wouldn't be there to save and carry Jews from Spanish Inqusition to Ottoman lands in 1492. Also there are thousands of Jewish refugees from Poland and Ukraine to Ottoman Empire in 1660 as they were purged from there. Another Jewish refugee flow to Turkey had happened in Nazi period. Turkey saved thousands of Jews from Nazis by simply giving them citizenship. Orthodoxes opressed Jews from their lands. 19th century Orthodox Russian Empire used antisemitic policies, tried to convert Jews to Orthodoxism. Some Jews refugeed to Ottoman Empire in this period. Orthodox Eastern Rome persucated Jews from time to time.

Let's make it real

@@TheHunterOfYharnam crusade 2 electric boogaloo ?

@@godzillaqq7712 if the Christians launched another crusade with all due respect they would be royally fucked 😂

@@ak_3rab i mean assuming they had america and the rest of the christan world on their side id say otherwise

@@godzillaqq7712 America doesn’t have a state religion so it wouldn’t side with anybody. Maybe support Europeans but not fully involved.

Approximately 923,414 square km. The reason it is approximated is because I had to manually draw the portion of turkey which isn't part of Rome here in a map tool that allows me to find the area. Since no Turkish provinces line up perfectly with my borders. But it's a pretty close estimate. So it's 32nd in the world, barely behind Nigeria and ahead of Venezuela. Also a decent bit bigger than Turkey in OTL. But not massively bigger. Geo-politically it's a Greek-speaking Turkey on steroids. Pretty much imagine if Turkey was a bit larger, had a lot more people, and was rich. And of course Christian and Greek speaking.

Yes most of them are the same, the only difference would be the addition of Bulgaria and Antioch. So just two more provinces. Serbia was for much of history under Roman rule, but later on it became independent. But kept close ties with Rome and was in the Roman sphere of influence. Then after ww1 Austria-Hungary was carved up, and instead of the creation of a united Yugoslavia, which the Romans were against, the region we know as Bosnia in our timeline, was divided between Serbia and Croatia. One reason why this happened rather than there just being an independent Bosnia, is that the Bosnian kingdom never existed in this timeline. There would not be a large muslim Bosnian community either, as the Ottoman empire would never have existed. So the Bosnians never really developed their own identity, and they would essentially all just be Serbs and Croats.

There was another comment above yours that replaced palestine with Assyrians

"Germans or Slavs who happen to practice a different religion." there it is. The most subtle antisemitic phrase used by dimwitted individuals. Just say it straight, don't shy away, say: "Jews from the European diaspora are not real Jews ethnically or racially and therfore do not have any claim over the land of Israel/Palestine because they were robbed off it by Arab settlers."

Found the Jew

@@Gabsboy123 that's all you have to say? yes, dimwitted was right. I am orthodox christian by the way.

rembre..Stambol

Maybe they have a ceremonial Emperor like the japanese.

Ottoman Turks also used the diminutive term "Small Rome" for the region

Ooh I like that

During and before ww2 relations wouldn't be great. I'm sure there would be a Roman/Greek irredentist movement for southern Italy, as a small population of Greeks lived there (and actually still do in OTL today). Italy joining Germany and fighting the Romans in ww2 would not help relations either. Especially their whole "neo-Roman empire" craze. That would seem preposterous to the Greek Romans who would already be the continuation of the Roman empire, which never ended. But in modern times, since both are EU-members and are in NATO, it would evolve into nothing more than a friendly rivalry. No more serious than Britain and France today. Or Denmark and Sweden.

@@Neatling Oh cool, I figured both countries would also have some sort of historical comradery, considering Italy would be the Roman Republics ancestral homeland

@@zankbot2401 That could very well be the case post-ww2. Much like how France and Britain went from fierce rivals to best buddies that share a lot of history.

@@Neatling my big question is how would Rome have affected World War II because of Italy would have still invaded then Rome would have been able to curb smack the crap out of them and therefore greatly affect the German invasion of the Soviet Union because Germany would have helped Italy and then Rome would have retaliated so how would rome have affected world war 2 in this timeline

@@jacobhall9321 It essentially opens yet another front in the war. It could possibly be referred to as the southern front. Or the Balkan front. Italy would indeed be curb-stomped by Rome. And Germany would have to go fight in the Balkans. I think the Germans would be capable of pushing the Romans to the Aegean before the war with the USSR. But it would be costly and there would be many casualties. Perhaps by the time Germany begins their invasion of the USSR, the Axis controls most of the Balkans, with the exception of Thrace and Constantinople. Much like how they pushed far into Russia, and got within viewing distance of Moscow, but never quite conquered it. Even if they managed to get Constantinople, the Romans would continue to fight from Anatolia. And by this point the Germans would be fighting both the Soviets and the Romans. Eventually the German war machine will run out of steam like in our timeline. The outcome will be similar, but the war might end slightly earlier. There would certainly be more casualties. The Warsaw-pact Nato border would probably also be changed in some way. Either the soviets push further since the Germans would be weakened earlier thanks to Rome. or maybe the Allies invade through Rome and Italy and completely drop the Normandy invasion, resulting in the Allies freeing more of Europe instead of the Soviets. It's up in the air, haven't decided on the details of ww2 yet. But I'm thinking either the Soviets just push slightly further, making Germany entirely a USSR puppet. Or the Allies push up through Rome and Italy, and all of Germany eventually becomes a part of the west and Nato. Also pretty much no matter what, I don't think the non-Roman Balkans or Hungary would become members of the USSR. It's very likely that Rome pushes to somewhere around Hungary. They would end up pushing the Germans back eventually along with the Soviets.

That's really cool man, feel free to send me a link to its steam page, I'd love to check it out. If you're making it public that is. If you want to contact me more directly about it, send me an email. My business email is on the about tab on the channel. Perhaps, but it will be a bit since I'm starting a new series. But feel free to ask any questions. And if I haven't talking about something in my scenario, nothing is really "canon". So you can fill in any gaps as you please. But yes, relations with the British would be quite tenuous during the height of the British Empire. By the time of ww2 is when relations with the British would become better out of convenience. And Rome would move towards allying with the west and joining NATO during the cold war, as they're so close to the Soviets. But in the 30's and the time leading up to ww2, they would not be part of the allies, and would stand as their own power. Serbia and Wallachia would be Roman puppets. Moldovia would have been under Russia for much of history, and become independent from Russia following ww1 and the Russian civil war. It would be independent, and in a similar situation to the baltic states after ww1. In the "canon" scenario, the Soviets conquer it in the 30's much like the Baltic states. Armenia, Georgia and Assyria would also be Roman-aligned. So maybe making a Roman faction with them in it could make sense.

@@Neatling Sure thing, its still a WIP, but if I get to a point that I can put it on the Steam Workshop I'll shoot you the link.

@@aqui1ifer Perfect!

As I mentioned Arabia was a protectorate under the British. The British would've taken the land from what was at the time Persia, ruled by the Qajar dynasty. Sometime during the 1800's most likely, not long after the establishment of the Arabian protectorate. Much like how they took some of eastern Persia and gave it to the British Raj in the real world. There are significant oil reserves in Khuzestan, so that would be the biggest reason why the British would want to take it. It of course also has a large arab population, and provides Arabia with a border along the mountains which is easier to defend. So it would also please the local Arab government. The borders would remain, even after Arabia gets independence from Britain. Just like how the Pakistan-Iran border has remained in OTL. Despite much of western Pakistan having been under Persia before the British took the land.

The British would have taken it from Iran and given it to their colony because they wouldn't have wanted Iran to be too powerful in this scenario it's the same reason why they didn't let Iraq acquire Kuwait after decolonization

@@Neatling on the contrary, the ottomans didnt exist, so they couldve never taken iraq from iran, so it would likely be part of iran. note: i am not smart enough to realize this. someone else did.

Ah shit, here we go again.

Good point. I guess Croatia would have a much easier task of getting independence than Slovenia since it was a separate kingdom all the time under Hungary. On the other hand Slovenes could easily be germanized or suffer heavily from it so what would be left of Slovenian identity could look to adopt Croatian as a means of preservation.

They were all Greek speaker and had Greek culture! I think they would only Name them byzantines!

@@heyellada-ball3929 Yes!

Very possible. In my scenario that doesn't happen however. The biggest threats to the PLC were definitely the Prussians and Russians, who along with Austria partitioned it. Which is exactly what still happens in my version of this scenario. But that's just the path I chose for this scenario. It's very possible that the Ottomans not being around could allow the PLC to perhaps survive in some weaker form.

thank you for responding :D:D

I make my own maps. I basically just colored a regular map, removed all the borders, and overlayed a relief map i found online, so you can see mountains and so on. I make my maps in photoshop.

There would be much Deference to us in Tunisia

Me too. Where is this world 😭????

Greek southern balkans and anatolia? check no muslims in europe and more christians in the middle east? check bigger serbia croatia armenia? check aramaic speaking assyria? check more coptic speaking egypt? check so many improvements we got the bad ending in our timeline

@@TheHunterOfYharnam it's not all bad. But yeah, things could have been a bit better true. I just wished the Empire survived. As a republic. But at least be there in name. The Eastern Roman Republic. Not that Byzantine crap. Even the muslims showed more respect than the latins did, in calling them for what they really were. And now, a tiny Greece is all that's left. They got cheated on what was theirs, and while a part of me wants to accept it and does not blame the current peoples living there, the other part can't help but feel bad for the Greco-Romans. Even more so, that some greeks see the roman side of their history as the Black Death 😥

@@ragael1024 The empire rose again in 1821 but the job isn't finished we will return to constantinople and anatolia there are many advantages greece has that if they are used in the right hands it can become a regional power there are vast ammounts of oil that could help too what greece misses is proper leadership in the last 50 years

@@ragael1024 it would be called Rhomanian republic we called eastern rome Rhomania and ourselves as romioi and hellenes/greeks we still call ourselves romioi just less often and as a secondary name at this point but we don't forget our history you know we could have kept eastern thrace and smyrna if a monkey hadn't bit king alexandros because that king went along with venizelos but unfortunatly king alexandors died venizelos lost the elections during the asia minor campaign and the pro german king constantine return (and was obviously unwanted by the great powers) so they stopped supporting greece and supported the turks instead and greece lost the war also the king put incopetent generals the grecoturkish war of 1919-22 could have gone very differently if a few minor things were changed but we are at least happy that the ottomans fell just 1 century after our independence and we were a major cause for that

In our timeline, turkey isnt wealthy or powerful enough to be as dominant as Rome is in this scenario. In this Scenario, Rome industrialised much earlier than turkey did, meaning its much more powerful and wealthy. Its also much bigger and has a bigger population. It very likely that Rome would be the third of fourth world power, and would have a higher level of influence on world politics.

@@gamingdealer9514 I mean a similar role to Turkey in the sense of being a major power in the crossroads of the world jacking up prices for the spice that Europeans wanted

@@thewanderingwastelander6814 Ah, when you said turkey I though of modern day turkey instead of the ottomans. Yeah its very possible, and that this would also be the reason why Europeans start to explore and colonise

Yes I agree that the Portuguese would discover America first. But I recon the Castilians (later Spanish) would still colonize it after learning of it. And during ww2 Rome would add another front to the war. The Italians would get smashed in the balkans, and the Germans would have to join the southern front. I think the southern front would be similar to the eastern front in many ways. Costly, lots of casualties, and eventually the Romans just power through with sheer numbers. WW2 end a little earlier. And of course the Greek/Romans would find the Italian claims of being the new Rome silly. As they were the direct descendants of Rome. German occupation of the Balkans would likely be comparable to German occupied Soviet lands. They would treat them harshly, and many would die. But they would be unable to push Rome completely out of the Balkans, as the mountains provide great defence. After becoming a republic, and especially in the late 1800's early 1900's, I imagine the Romans would become more tolerant of minorities. And they had already been tolerant of the Armenians throughout their entire history. But by that point many would already have been Greekified. I also agree on the Roman system of government. The people of Rome would see themselves as Romans, and identify with being Roman. They would just speak Greek. Their culture would of course be reminiscent of modern Greek, but also different. But essentially everyone living in the country would identify as Roman, not Greek, Armenian or anything like that. Those would simply be their languages. Just like under the Roman Empire before it fell in our timeline. Back then the greek half saw themselves as being Romans, who spoke greek. Many in the west also spoke greek as a second language. I think the Romans would become pretty tolerant of jews in the 1900's. Like most of the west. That is also why they would agree to the creation of Israel. And lastly I do think the hippodrome would still be used for some activities. Perhaps even modern sports as well. I imagine they would keep the structure well maintained throughout the centuries. But of course gladiator fight and other deadly activities would remain banned till this day. Sports like chariot racing might live on as part of Roman tradition.

@@Neatling nice thank you and if already ask does iran is a constitutional monarchy like in the time of Mosaddegh authoritarian kingdom like in the time of the Shah or autocratic islamic republic like in the time of Ayatollah Khomeini or it is just democratic republic also if Romans would become tolerant of jews before the 1900's like say 1400's or 1500's Roma called get a lot of the exiled jews of spain and so same of the best minds of the time who called halp roma a lot allso i have a suggestion for alternate history scenario this scenario is nieuw Netherlands and it based on this deviantart post by Keperry01 www.deviantart.com/keperry012/art/The-United-American-Provinces-659088053 and this picture www.cityvisionweb.com/competition/n5l3c7/ called be really cool scenario

@@Neatling can i ask does egypt is more stable then let's just say lebanon because the government doesn't play the religious card to it's people but national one instead of egyptian identity to unify to nation both muslim and christian? and again about my question on the iranian government?

In my scenario it's the geopolitical situation in the region. The British took control of the province of Palestine to connect their Egyptian and Arabian protectorates, and solidify their presence in the middle east. And when they convinced Rome to go along with the creation of Israel there, Assyria and Egypt had no choice but to comply. Reason being that they rely on Roman and western support for defensive reasons. That's especially the case after British decolonization, where Arabia would be very capable of conquering Assyria if not for Roman and western support. If you're a western aligned nation which borders a major nation that could easily conquer you, then just like in our world, what the west says will happen, will happen. Not much of a choice. Relations between Israel and Assyria would have been a little sour for at least the first few decades. But would eventually get better with time, as no conflict that could sour relations further would ever have happened. The reason for their close cooperation in modern times is simply the threat of Arabia and Persia. Israel is very rich and controls land that would be strategically valuable in a possible conflict.

@@Neatling that makes sense, thank you

@@Neatling The British would probably at least make Oman and Yemen separate entities aside from the Greater Arabia. If oil should be concerned, then Lower Mesopotamia would be carved away.

Its possible the Romania exists but with different name, like Wallachia. Its also possible that they are a protectorate of Rome or they are influenced politically by Rome, but I dont think that they would be "dual ruled" since Greeks would be the Romans.

@@gamingdealer9514 well the name of Wallachia comes from the world Vlah, which is an exonim for Romanians or latin speakers, in Romania Historiography Wallachia is always refered as 'The Romanian Country" as well Wallachia is a name given by outsiders. I think it's important to no forget that latin was still spoken in the North of the Empire, the descendents of those are the Romanias and Aromanians of the Balkans. As well how will this alternate scenario would pan out, it's just speculation after all...

And Greeks

No, you wouldnt be dead, you would be Roman, which is obviously better than your fake slavo"macedonian" country.

@@gamingdealer9514 Well, if you actually took the time to analyse what I wrote you would understand what I meant. Which is that all "Slavo-Macedonians" as you say, completely support the idea of a restored Byzantine/Roman Empire. I would argue that so do Bulgarians, Greeks and maybe even Christian Illyrians. But that's to be discussed. I like conservatism, nationalism. That means I like educated opinions backed by factual arguments. I respect that you like your country, but your argument was misplaced and not factual at all. Yes we speak a Slavic language, but most of us can trace our roots back to pre-turkish Greece and Serbia. We mean no harm to Greece, I would love to know why you don't see us as brother's but foes. Thanks for your comment, I would love to read your reply. Have a great day!

@@baki1288 oh sorry I read it during the night with a half awake mind. I though your comment meant that you would not exist if this happened.

@@gamingdealer9514 And I though you were just trying to provoke, no worries friend. Have a great day! :D

Macedonia is greek

Not sure exactly when, but I will be making it relatively soon. It might be my next video, I have a few video scripts in the making.

I don't think his timeline had it being reconquered until the 1500s but his religion map is still very flawed. Makuria was conquered by the Ottomans who wouldn't be a factor in this scenario so most of Sudan and Ethiopia would be Christian except maybe some coastal areas. Even Egypt would be much more Christian than he showed since they didn't even become a minority until the 1300s. There'd be much more especially in the south and east where there is still a significant Christian presence and would be even more so in a scenario where Makuria survives. The Mamlukes probably wouldn't have controlled Egypt either since Byzantium would be blocking most of their access to Circassian slave soldiers. And that's not even getting into why the Palestinians are somehow okay with a population replacement of Jews taking the best land in the region.

Really?? You think them being Christian would make "the west" sympathise more. Boooy in what world are you living in.

In this scenario they colonize those lands in the 1800s.

Because why not colonize?

Well Slovenia, Bulgaria, Albania, Bosnia and Romania don't exist. Hungary is much larger. And Wallachia as well as Moldavia still exist. Much of what is southern Serbia in OTL is Roman instead. Both Serbia and Croatia split what would become Bosnia in OTL, but in this timeline there was never a Bosnian Kingdom. That's why the Croats and Serbs split it, a Bosnian identity never formed. Slovenia is also part of Croatia. A lot more than just Bulgaria changed in my scenario. But as for why the Serbs and Croats are still around, well, why would they disappear? They had migrated to the Balkans before my scenario started. Same with the other ethnic/linguistic groups that survive in some form.

@@Neatling You could've added heavy germanization of Slovenes to back up the reason why Slovenia isn't on the map. Let's say Austria desolves much of the Slovene identity through centuries and what's left of it directs itself towards Croatian identity. And I would then change the map a bit,just recently Maribor(Marburg) had Austrian majority.

Moldavia in this world eventually did become part of the Russian Empire. The Russians would lose it during the civil war, but after ww2 it would become a soviet republic. Of course Armenia is much larger and would never be under Russian or Soviet Rule. Georgia would be under the Russian Empire and later USSR, but become independent after the fall of the USSR. Azerbaijan would for much of history be under Persia, but the Russians would eventually get control of it, and it's fate would be just like that of Georgia.

So pretty much just what happened irl, just with a bigger Moldova