What is a SABRE? Sword blades, hilts & fencing... Was I WRONG? 

How are you going to find and buy what you want if you can't define it?

Why classifying in biology and palaeontology is just normal from the 18th century, but with bladed (and other) weapons it is such a great problem?

@morriganmhor5078 I think it's because we're trying to make sense of 4,000 years of period weapon terminology, while paleontology classification is a relatively recent development. I am happy to hear rebuttals.

@@Benjanuva Shamshir, Kilij, Karabela, Hussar Saber were all sabers in Poland all of them where used by everyone, including the Hussars. I will argue that the mentioned above are types of sabers, not different weapons even if they required more or less different techniques to get most of them.

@@morriganmhor5078 and @Benjanuva Classification in biology and paleontology is not cut and dry either. There is no single definition of species that works for all life. The definition of species that you were probably taught in school, the biological species concept: organisms that can interbreed and produce viable fertile offspring are the same species, does not work for asexually reproducing organisms, nor can it be tested on extinct organisms. Even when it can apply, two populations can theoretically interbreed, but due to some other mechanism of separation (such as physical isolation), never do, and so have separate evolutionary trajectories. It does not really make sense to call those the same species anymore. Biologists have even observed, after environmental changes, what were once separate species begin to interbreed and become one species. Scientists have spent decades arguing over dozens of different species concepts, and while different concepts have different practical and theoretical strengths and weaknesses, none of them work perfectly. Ultimately, the problem of definition for species and for swords have the same cause. Evolutionary (whether biological or cultural) change is gradual and continuous, therefore any lines that we draw along that gradient are ultimately arbitrary. It's like a color gradient. Green eventually becomes blue, but there is no hard line where you can point out where exactly a teal-esque hue goes from being a green to being a blue.

Wow lol

In Spanish, a sable (sabre) is an espada (sword) but not every espada is a sable. I hope this helps. Edit: the literal translation is sabre-sword, NOT sword-sabre. The grammatical order is the opposite in Spanish

Oops, I hadn't realised you were a native Spanish speaker (I just saw your other comment). But my point still stands

@@taylor_green_9 The order of the factors etc. but yeah, you're right

@@scholagladiatoria Hear me out: we can agree that sabers came to Western Europe after it was already present for quite some time in Eastern Europe. In Polish a straight sword with hilt and everything like saber in different variants was always a "pałasz" after Hungarian "pallos" and not a saber and there was a clear dispute on which is better, which should be used and how they work differently. Already in XVIIth century Fredro argued we should use 'pałasz type saber' and Wacław Potocki blamed battlefield disasters solely on using sabers instead of straight blade swords. And Shamshir is totally a saber. We called it a saber, we extensively used it, Hussars would wear it before Hussar saber was developed etc. etc. For us, Shamshir is just a type of saber.

This ... exactly how you talk to your 2nd Lt being nosy about your blade style life choices! :] +][+

Try 'Fallen Rook Publishing' in Scotland. I have a couple of their translated manuals, the Klewang and Swedish sabre.

Yup, that would be a distinction that dates back to XVI century Hungary and Poland and became a standard classification for the whole of Central-Eastern Europe.

In Spanish we call cutlasses boarding sabres (or sometimes "alfanje" which is a catch-all term for curved short-ish swords)

As far as i know, a "katana with a sabre hilt" would be describing a Kyū-Guntō, which was in use from 1872 to 1934 and inspired by, well, french sabres, while still maintaining the typical japanese blade style. Also, i think, Guntōs are generally speaking quite short. i have a Shin-Guntō myself, which is pretty much halfway between a typical Katana and a typical Wakazashi, but i cant say how many were or weren't this length. However, it just makes sense to have shorter swords in an age of firearms since they weren't used that much anyways and shorter swords are less cumbersome and more useful in small rooms

I believe that every Pole who is not an expert would also think that the shamshir is a saber.

To add more chaos, I think that in many languages any curved sword from Islamic cultures is called a scimitar or equivalent term

In Croatian, Perzijska sablja(Persian sabre)= Šamšir

In Arabic, all swords, whether they are a kilij (or kilic) or a shamshir or a straight sword (like the Sudanese kaskara or early Arab swords) are just called a “seyf”. Arabic does not distinguish between curved or straight swords. I read somewhere that the word seyf is derived from the Greek word “xiphos”, also meaning sword.

Heh. Just like in swedish. Sabel for any curved sword.

I'm of the same opinion. Especially considering many of Europeans early sabers were, from my understanding, based on swords like the shamsir.

Yeah, Matt's last argument regarding the shamshir confused the hell out of me because I would too refer to the shamshir as sabre. I mean, out of all the weapons shown in the video it was most deserving of such a name.

@@bentrieschmann You are correct. The Turkish Kilij and Persian Shamshir were the direct inspiration for the Sabers (Szabla) made by the Hungarians and Polish.

@@adambielen8996 Woot, I'm glad I remembered something!

Apparently shamshirs and kilijs were scimitars, rather than sabres.

And that's why we often will differentiate between a cavalry saber and an infantry saber. It's complicated.

Cool impression. Yet, for example a Hussar Saber or a 'Polish Saber' was actually developed as a compromise between cavalry and infantry saber because for Hussars 1st it was the last resort weapon, 2nd, Hussars actually spent most battle time fighting as infantry although they were cavalry. A big part of Polish war art was the Tabor-fort or wagon fighting where we fought in defensive positions using wagons as field fortification and mobile fortress. We could wear the enemy off like this for weeks and during this time, Hussars were infrantry, and would only become cavalry for the final finish-them charge or for a counter charge. Also, since we still had knight system, there were almost exclusively noblemen in the army and little or no infantry, so when we had to assault a fortress, the Hussars would become infantry as well.

@@Benjanuva Which was Matt's point, I believe. My great-great-grandfather was the bugler with the 13th Light Dragoons at Balaclava. So, I've come to the conclusion that the "horse" was attached to the weapon within family tradition, more than anything else. I also had the idea the blade was always curved, but as Matt points out, that's not true either. I know that my grandfather taught my dad a smattering of saber drill, and he, in turn, passed on a tiny bit to me. During that bit of play, I got my ideas about what a saber was. And it's still complicated.

@@piotrmalewski8178 You make very bold claims thus I have to ask for the sources for these revelations. *"Yet, for example a Hussar Saber or a 'Polish Saber' was actually developed as a compromise between cavalry and infantry saber"* --- Hussar sabre is a very specific late type of a Polish Sabre. Thus I am confused about what are you trying to say here. Are you saying Polish sabres, in general, were developed as a compromise between cavalry and infantry sabres (which is absolutely not true)? Or are you saying that hussar sabres were developed as such a compromise? In that case, I would love to see sources for such a claim. *"1st it was the last resort weapon, 2nd, Hussars actually spent most battle time fighting as infantry although they were cavalry."* --- I can sort of agree with the first statement but absolutely not with the second. How did you come to the conclusion that hussars fought more on foot than on horseback? Pulling back all forces behind a wagon fort to defend it was more of a last resort rather than a standard tactic and was used primarily against Tatars. *"Also, since we still had knight system, there were almost exclusively noblemen in the army and little or no infantry, so when we had to assault a fortress, the Hussars would become infantry as well."* --- Oh Jesus there is a lot to unpack here. Primo, can you explain what the hell is a "knight system"? Are you referring to the companion system? If that's the case then why do you seem to imply that it is some kind of feudal levy? Secundo, can you provide examples of when hussars were used to storm fortifications? The only example I know was the Siege of Smolensk (1609-1611) when hussars literally refused to follow such an order. The job of storming fortification was usually left to the infantry and dismounted cossacks/pancerni.

And yet the British nomenclature for the horse based pointy sharp edged thing was, and is, a cavalry sword and it was made clear to me that it was not to be called a sabre but a sword and my Yeomanry predecessors took their swords to France in 1914 not sabres. Many were the older cut and thrust patterns not the single hand lance of the 1908 Pattern.

To be fair the Kilij and Shamshir are the direct inspiration for the Hungarian and Polish Szabla.

@@adambielen8996 I've heard competing theories of origin (and not just from various nationalists). The Hungarians do seem to have contributed something to the form. There also might be a lot more influence from a range of steppe cultures than is often credited (so not just Anatolian Turks and Hungarians, but also Iranians, Tatars, Mongols, and other Turkic groups). Frankly, though, I have yet to read any definitive discussion of the origins of conventional curved sabre form and would love to see one. Experts always seem to come to the edge of that discussion and then shy away for lack of a definitive historical record or study, or simply to default to "curved swords have been around since ancient times". It would be a good project for an archaeologist and historian to tackle.

@@d0r1an06 Absolutely it would be an interesting study. But from what I've done the Saber pops up when the Hungarians and Poles were fighting the Ottomans after a long time of Europeans not using many strongly curved swords. But certainly Mongol swords might have also been an influence, the Crimean Tatars were still very active at that time.

Actually they do overlap, that the same word, what doesn't is the comprehension of people who have associated the word with a single type of sword because of the media they consume

​@@adambielen8996 Nope, Sabres were already present with the Hungarian arrival in the 9th century

I have a dao training sword and it feels like a medieval falchion or messer (German 1 handed single edged choppy sword)

More accurately, a Dao is a single edge sword whether straight or curved, the oldest Dao tend to be straight, and Jian were any double edge sword, and you can say Daojian together as a word to refer to swords in general whether single or double edge.

Polish "Szabla" came from Hungarian...

Hello bratanek. A Hungarian here. Usually, when it comes to the Sabre and Pallos, Westerners have no idea. Most probably because they don't speak Polish or Hungarian at all. The "huszár" of an official noble banderium was usually equipped with three swords: - Szablya = Saber - Lóra való pallos = "Pallas for the horse", one handed, sabre hilt, straight blade. - Hegyestőr = "Pointy dagger", a long, rapier like sword with a triangle shaped cross section that could pierce chainmail. About the pallos: The pallos was also the weapon of the headsmen, given the local lord had the right (pallosjog) to take life. Interestingly, most of those swords had no points for thrusting. Some pallos were made huge and were used for ceremonial purposes. Honestly, I can't say whether it was meant to be straight bladed, because normally, the huge swords are referred as pallos. To make things more complicated, the Hungarian word used for "sword" is "kard", which means "dagger" in Persian.

@@mutantpig4218 That's a very informative post, thank you! As for the word 'sword' in Polish it's 'miecz' originating from Goth word 'meki' meaning double-edged blade.

@@mutantpig4218 That's a very informative post, thank you! As for the word 'sword' in Polish it's 'miecz' originating from Goth word 'meki' meaning double-edged blade.

I’ve most certainly seen that same description

Not being an expert, I would call it "pałasz". This is what I would call almost any weapon that has a straight blade but a slightly more saber-style hilt.

Well, in Poland we will never agree that straight sword with saber hilt is a saber because it's pałasz after Hungarian word 'pallos'. Plus the techniques of using the two are totally different.

@@piotrmalewski8178 not totally different only a lil bit but as a Pole i agree - pałasz

palasz... We use this word generously

​@@Zbigniew_Nowaksame, and I'm not polish, I'm russian

I, Brittas boyfriend, am german. In our weapons terminologie a saber is a Säbel (curved) , while a Degen is umbrella term for smallsword, spadroon, rapier, sport epee, duel epee. The heavy Cavallry sword, used by Cuirassiers, Dragoons, and ( in 18th century) also Gendarmes, is mostly called Pallasch. But by not so knowledge writers, also Haudegen ( hewing Degen) or Raufdegen ( brawling Degen) is used. Some notes: Years ago, I read , Nibelungen ' tale in a book where you could read the Text on one page in current german, and on next page in original , Middle High German '. Nearly Impossible to understand. In medieval days , Degen ' meant , Thegn' (!). And sometimes in german , Haudegen ' means no weapon, but a brave man, envolved in many fights.

There might be something to this. Probably a modern approach, but rapier could be more civilian while sabre more military?

@@dizzt19 : Mr. Easton very often and totally correct uses the word , context '. I , Brittas boyfriend, am german, so I have , no surprise, more knowledge about the Situation of my swabian Homeregion, than on Situation in non german countries. In my Homeregion after the great farmers revolt of 1525 the Farmers Had been punished in draconic Style and for centuries Had No right to own weapons. They only Had their their Tools, their short EDC knifes and may BE a cane. But noblemen and townsmen upperclass Had Access to weapons, fencing and pistol Training. So: Noblemen and to some degree rich townsmen Had the posssibilty to own weapons and train with them. In 18 th most german upperclass men prefered the smallsword, but some used largest Type of german hunting knives: Hirschfänger.

His theory is wrong, saber designate a single edge sword (he should have open a dictionary), french cavalry saber during the napoleon ear where thrusting sword, not cutting one

Well said, although considering that "sablja" likely came from Hungarian, and the 800-year association between the Hungarian and Croatian crowns, the whole concept of native/foreign is a bit muddy. Pozdrav.

Unfortunately, "Matt, please" sums this one up, starting with the absolutely *ridiculous* assertion that the origin of the word sabre is somehow up for debate, or that the Napoleonic Wars ended in the late 1700s.

Nope, Magyars used it much earlier than

That false, you've thrusting sword called saber, saber mean single edge

Cool, no one cares about Romanian though

I'd say that for example the off hand positions depend on the system - somewhere out of the way or poised for grapling... So depending on training or inclinations, people might use a rapier like a sabre, sabre like a dussack, dussack like a sabre... the personal bias seems quite big to me to be defining the weapon type. :)

Scimitar is derived from shamshir, it's an english word that was basically used to describe middle eastern curved swords as far as I know. There's quite a few "general" terms like this from back in the day, for example in old sources they call katana a cutlass or two handed saber

The Pharaoh, Mesopotamian empire, Roman republic & empire, Frankish empire, Chinese empire would like word with you , sir. Standardisation and norming efforts and keeping tabs on e verything is as old as civilisations themselves.

@@kleinerprinz99 I was referring to a global naming authority. Rome, no matter how large, was still dedicated to all things from Rome. And, yes, the problem happened in Rome as well, here is a quote from Wikipedia: "Gladius is a Latin word properly referring to the type of sword that was used by ancient Roman foot soldiers starting from the 3rd century BC and until the 3rd century AD. Linguistically, within Latin, the word also came to mean 'sword', regardless of the type used." Language keeps evolving over time, and even empires have a hard time pinning it down, never mind how other empires viewed the words.

Palas, i.e. saber (i.e. curved) hilt + straight heavy blade is not a saber by definition. Saber = curbed hilt + curved blade.