This has been a LONG STANDING query of mine (50 YEARS!) - thank you SO MUCH for being the person to finally address it. I didn't even know what it was called until today!! THREE THUMBS UP! (where is that other thumb? I know I had it somewhere!)
i can't imagine you're wearing the clutch with back hacking. it *slides* when you set time, but when you back hack you transfer torque without sliding. no sliding no rubbing no wear this video cleared up a lot of detail that mostly people don't talk about. you can describe most of a watch by talking about the going train because that takes you all the way from power to balance wheel, so i was confused about the point of departure between the two trains, the time set mechanism, and of course the clutch. so thanks a bunch
Excellent video!!! I have seen a broken Omega Speedmaster that got the pallet fork stuck because of backhacking. It ended up getting the pallet fork replaced
There is a big difference between applying just enough pressure when the watch spring is not fully wound to stop the movement, and trying to force the movement backwards!. It is this that damages the watch. Common sense guys. Even Omega know this they just don't take into account how ham fisted people can be. Great vid Mark thank you.
Thanks for putting in the time and effort into making this video. I have been back hacking my 007, Orange Monster and Samurai for years, but I always wondered if it was somehow damaging the movement. You have put my mind at ease. Thank you again.
Great video. I discovered this by accident on my new SKX007, which convinced me not to change the stock movement. Love these videos. Please keep 'em going. Thanks
Thanks for the info, Marc! I back-hack my 7s26 movements, but something instinctively told me to just hold the second hand stationary...not make it run backwards. Liked hearing that confirmed by you.
It's funny, I asked myself this very question and I think you hit upon the crucial point at around 15'40". I am not a watchmaker, but I am a huge enthusiast and love to think about watch movements. I mentally followed the act of back-hacking and I also feel that it's all about the interaction of the pallet jewels and the escapement. The entry jewel and the exit jewel would essentially be reversing roles. The biggest issue, I think, would be that the jewels would instead of receiving and imparting force on their blunt faces, would instead be raking along the wrong side of each escapement tine, but on the points of the jewels, not the blunt faces. I am right? I'm just an enthusiast, so I would like to hear from an expert. I have a couple of Seiko 5s with this movement. In fact, they are my "nicest" watches. I don't spend much money on watches, I just have fun bringing old Timexs back to life, Caravelles, etc.
For non hacking movement I think you need to perfectly align minute hand and forget about the second hand. The second hand is just a vital sign that the watch is a live and running
Very informative Mark! I've honestly learnt so much from this series of videos, great content as always, keep up the good work Sir... greetings from N.Ireland 👍
I enjoy these learning videos a lot, even though I haven't a clue what you're talking about half the time. Watching these videos, for me, is like looking at the movement in operation through an exhibition caseback. I have no clue what's going on, but it's mesmerizing to view.
I think you should make a video on the different movements and how they compare to ETA. For example, Selita, STP, Soprod, and ISA. I have been quite impressed with the Selita in my Oris.
What I see is: The issue with going backwards is that you will ruin the pallet fork crystals. The pallet fork crystals have a slight angle on them to advance the escapement. If you reverse this action you are applying force to the back of the pallet fork crystal which can either break the pallet fork crystal or grind the ends off the escapement wheel.
Thanks for the tutorial, I've been wondering about this. I discovered back-hacking recently when I got my first mechanical watch. I found I could make the seconds hand stop and even move backwards but wondered if it could be harmful to the watch. After a bit of experimentation and after seeing your explanation, I've decided it really isn't worth the trouble and risk. When I go to get a stopped watch going, I just wait for the seconds hand on my reference timepiece to nearly match the position of the seconds hand on the stopped watch. At that point I give it a bit of the "Seiko shake" to get it running. After a bit of practice I can get it moving within a couple of seconds of the reference, and that is certainly good enough. Then I just set the minutes and hours hands to the correct values. No back hacking necessary.
You are Genius ... Many reviewers talked about it but a seperate video and covering it in watch and learn is a genius ideas...I am sure lot of people will learn from it now
With my inexpensive Seiko, it is hard to set the desired time (e.g., +15 seconds), because it runs unpredictably for a couple of days. Once it stabilizes, I can no longer stop the seconds hand.
@PacoTaco0404040 I would guess not. The way I understand it, as the mainspring winds up (as it does from wearing it and an automatic won't overwind itself), the watch gets harder to backhack because backhacking involves overcoming the torque of the mainspring. When you backhack, you rotate the movement such that the mainspring rotates in the winding direction (when the movement runs normally, the mainspring is unwinding). So when a watch is fully wound, you may not be able to backhack it because to do so, you need to overcome the spring's torque. With a fully wound spring, that may not be possible.
Having used quartz (or just wind-up) watches previously (as in many, many years ago) when I got started with automatics I wanted to set the time EXACTLY to see how accurate the watch is ... And because I wanted the EXACT time. Quartz watches had spoiled me in that regard but of course quartz means batteries so I started using automatics and discovered something. Hacking an automatic is useless. Because any automatic watch I can afford isn't going to be accurate enough for a time hack to have any useful purpose past a few days. Unless I want to hack those automatics every day and in the case of non-hacking movements fiddle around with back hacking them, they're never going to benefit from hacking. So why does this matter? Because I'm an amateur astronomy buff and I also use my watch for celestial navigation practice. Both of those pursuits require as accurate a time hack as you can get. So along came Citizen Eco-drives and I got the best of both worlds in a watch. Then along came smart phones (etc.) and now it doesn't really matter because anything with GPS is time synchronized with the GPS satellites exactly in order to work properly.. If I absolutely HAVE to get a +/- one second time hack I just lay my phone on the _____ (bench, table, nav station countertop, etc.) Now I'm free to wear whatever watch suits me at the time no matter what movement it uses. If I have calculated that I need to maintain a tack for an hour and a half any good automatic is accurate enough for that and way, way more convenient than trying to check time on an expensive phone that can slip out of my hands and into Davy Jones' locker in an instant. I still wear a watch to tell time at a glance and I always will. Pulling out a phone to check the time is just a rude heathen move as far as I'm concerned. I like my watches to be accurate and I virtually NEVER buy a watch for the "bling" factor, though I will choose among my watches to suit the occasion, watches are always first and foremost timepieces as far as I'm concerned -- The purpose of me wearing a watch is to tell time as a primary factor by a large percentage so I like accurate, well made watches. But I'm never going to bother with back-hacking any automatic watch I own ever again.
I found this video quite fascinating, thank you! My first automatic watch was a cheap Orient Mako I got new for about $80. IIRC it has one of the Seiko movements that is not wind-able nor hackable. A few months ago I accidentally discovered it was back-hackable. I had no idea that was a thing until I saw this video, but I was fascinated I could set it exactly with my two other wind-able, hackable Maratac watches. It's cool to understand the how and why, and how amazing the workings of these watches are.
Why back hack? Is this the solution to my daily nightmare of adjusting the time on a Seiko skx009? I'll admit that I'm obsessed with starting my day with being no more than one second off. Great lesson, as always Marc.
I love these. It was very helpful not just to learn about back hacking, but also how the gears work to move the hands (which helps to explain why they attach the way they do). Thank you.
Mark, thank you so much for this. I always suspected that going backwards was not a good idea - now I know exactly why! I don't set my watches to the second anyway, but my SKX013 will for sure never get a back hack from me anymore :) Cheers!
@@islandwatch I have an old Russian Poljot where to change the date its required to go backwards and forwards between 7 and 12 constantly (the watch only has 1 crown postion). Doing this causes the second hand to go backwards a bit. I wonder how how much effect it has on the movement giving that this is considered the "correct" way to change the date.
This is why I bought a watch from you Mark, I found out about back-hacking recently and wanted to try it...now I know I shouldn't. Great video, many thanks!
Thank you, Mark, for explaining this. I have often wondered why I can back-hack some of my watches but not others. That's how I set the precise time on my Omega Speedmaster and most of my vintage Omega watches that were built with in house movements. I couldn't understand why my vintage Omega DeVille with ETA 7750 movement won't back-hack, or why some of my watches are much easier to back-hack when the mainspring is only slightly wound. This was very informative!
Well, I've heard that you "can" IF you have a Flux Capacitor, a De Lorean and get up to 88 1/2 mph...................! Or was that to "go back in time"? Anyway.
Great video Marc. I always wondered how back hacking worked. Like how the sound gets a little louder when you zoom in (3:55). Gives the viewer that "i'm getting closer" feeling.
Great video! Good to see in the video what I have suspected for a while. I am particularly careful with vintage watches to avoid doing anything to compromise the cannon pinion friction fitting as i have had that problem with 1960s gruen precision and seikomatic watches. Thanks!
My SNXJ80 and my 7002 7000 both have back hacking, I had no idea how it was working as everything i read said they did not hack at all!!! I could stop the second hand and make it go backwards lol. Now I understand! Thank you! Kia kaha from New Zealand!
Great explanation Marc. I noticed I could can stop the second hand on my (non-hacking) Citizen auto, but didn't know how it worked. Great content and vid.
Thank you for the video! It answered a question I’ve had for quite some time now, and needed an answer from a reputable source. One question, when setting time to the second, what is the best source to use for accurate time?
Interesting. So when the crown is pulled and you don't touch it, all the hands should still be moved by the movement and the crown should be slowly rotating with them. And the added friction could perhaps slow down the movement a bit. I think I'll try this, since my watch is running faster, so every time I need to set the time it's a bit backwards, which I don't want to directly and to revolve everything forwards is a pain..
Absolutely phenomenal video! SO informative, Kudos Mark!!! Though… I am too scared to back hack my watch now 😂 Jokes aside it seems that, in theory, back hacking should not cause any problems if it is done with moderation and when the watch is almost completely unwound. Still, I have found out that it doesn’t take much force to go from back hacking to ‘reversing the time’, so I think I will stay away from that habit for some time! 😂 I have to admit though, when I first saw that second hand going backwards on my watch I though ‘wtf, I didn’t know this little thingie is a time machine!’ 😂🤣😂
if you really care that much about accuracy that you set your mechanical watch to the second , can i recommend a quartz or radio signal watch for the future . i find my cheapish quartzs usually run for several days before deviating a whole second .
Omega coaxial mechanical movements are certified to within a small fraction of a second per day on the better examples in the accuracy tests. I believe this makes them the most accurate movements in the world regardless of cost especially cals. 8800 / 8900 series. (Seiko Spring Drive is electronically regulated and doesn't count).
If you have a fine touch, you can barely hold some slack in the time train against the center friction (cannon) pinion and stop the balance without reversing the train. My 7S26A is fine with this method and I actually prefer a 7S26 for its simplicity. It doesn't do it any harm at all.
You'll put wear on the safety pin and/or safety roller if you do this too much. The pallets do not have a positive lock on the escape wheel if the escape wheel is turned backwards and will want to slip out of lock. What keeps it from slipping would be the safety pin and safety roller, which do not contact each other in normal operation and the mechanism is only there to prevent overbanking under a shock. In a back-hacking scenario, the safety pin would repeatedly impact the safety roller while the latter is rotating at high velocity . Also you deposit oil on inappropriate surfaces - the side of the pallet stones opposite the locking planes. Doing this too much will distribute oil away from surfaces that actually need it.
Long Island Watch try and look into colour correcting. It's a very basic editing process that will stop you from looking like a white walker. Big fan of the new camera 👍
Fantastic video, very well explained, never heard of back hacking, but I treasure my watches too much to even try this. But thank you for sharing this information.
Hey, Marc! After watching this video a question emerged in my head: is it harmful for an automatic movement that IS able to be handwound to be handwound daily? There seems to be quite a discussion regarding this topic in many forums, but i can not find any video in RU-vid concerning this topic. I'd love to hear your explanation. :) P.S. Love your channel, keep up the good work!
As far as I’m aware all modern watches have a clutch that stops them being “overwound” so you could wind it to your hearts content without causing damage to the movement (still wouldnt reccomend it). However if your are winding a vintage mechanical piece you do need to be careful not to snap the main spring by winding it too much, if it isn’t an auto and you want to keep it running daily only give it a few winds
None of you understood my question. I'm quite aware of the clutch mechanism if automatics. I'm taking about the hand winding mechanisms of automatics being more fragile than the ones of pure handwinders.
if you can back hack a watch that means it’s in good condition because there is good friction between the movement and hands which means the watch will keep good time and if your watch is jarred the hands will stay where they should. I actually have a watch that if jarred will move the hands because of this.
There seems to be two separate concerns: possible damage to the clutch and possible damage to the escapement. It seems that clutch friction movement occurs during every single time adjustment, whether the balance stops or not. It would seem one would cause wear on the clutch by simply setting the time - either forward or backward. The only problem I can see with the friction hack is that one might cause friction for longer time - up to a minute while waiting on the real time to catch up with the second hand position. However, the total rotation against the friction is a very small number of degrees relative to regular time setting. I suppose it would be the same as changing the indicated time by one minute. This seems to be a non issue in the bigger picture. Other commenters have pointed out that running backwards causes friction and pressure on the wrong faces of various parts in the escapement mechanism, causing possible damage and unwanted redistribution of lubrication. Running backwards seems to be a more valid concern. I think I would agree with those who say the friction hack is fine, but just don't make the second hand go backwards.
Seiko has said many times there is nothing wrong with turning a watch back to set time. Infact, some watch manuals say to turn it forward or backwards. I never saw the hysteria over which way to set a watch until hacking movements became common. I think tje myth is a marketing ploy.
Thanks for the video. Very informative even though I won't be back hacking my SKX. I'll use a quartz watch if I want an accurate time or just check the time on my CP.
Probably not. You are only exerting enough counter pressure to break the friction grip between the canon pinion and the arbor. It would take some kind of pressure that expanded the inner canon pinion diameter to cause it to be abnormally affected. Sometimes the canon pinion gets crimped too much during servicing and on replacement is too tight on the arbor and it becomes difficult to change the time without affecting the movement gears adversely. It's a delicate connection.
Interesting, but I never need to be to the second. So although I now know I could do it to the SKX, I won’t, because like other comments on here if I need accuracy I will wear a quartz watch. 😃
If back-hacking is bad, is setting time backwards equally bad? Each movement has its own direction to set the time (a crown rotating direction sets time forward in one movement, would do exactly opposite in another!). I have like 20 watches I rotate through and have not memorized which one is forward direction. Although I never set time backwards, when I start setting it 50% of times I get it wrong direction on first attempt, then I reverse to correct it to set forward. This is the exactly reason why I want to avoid setting time in backwards but I can't, any tips?
Thanks Mark! I freaked out when I tried to hack my first early generation Orient... Thanks for solving the mysterious backward time that resulted!!! Isn't there also something about this being particularly harmful between 9pm and 2am for some reason! Great video, as always.
Yes, if a watch has a date complication then you shouldn't change the time between those hours. He covered this in another video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-EZu6wxCVjaE.html
@@landonitron I'm pretty sure changing the time between those hours is fine, you just shouldn't try to change the day or date during those hours. I'll watch the video you posted to make sure. Edit: confirmed.
Just got myself a vintage Constellation and that back-hacking just scared me... 😱😱😱 But 911-Super-Marc came to rescue ! 😅👌😎 Thanks a lot: you saved my day... and maybe my watch too.
After setting the time on a movement with hacking, how many seconds does it normally take for the movement to get back up to full speed after pushing in the crown?
I tried this on my new Tissot Savonnette with a small seconds hand and it worked. 16 hours later it had gained 7 seconds so I’ll probably do it again an hour before it stops or the next time I set the time
Yeah but a mechanical watch is not going to be so off that it should make you late. You'd wear a chunky swag g shock with professional work attire? That clashing of style is worse than being off by a few seconds, if even that.
