What is the CES Letter? | Q&A with Sarah Allen 

I had an experience once w an anti- Mormon book that I was given. I started to read it and immediately recognized how it twisted our beliefs and took things out of context. But what really struck me was the darkness I felt - the Spirit immediately left me. I set it dwn & picked up the BoM and started to read and was filled w the Spirit of light & love. I went back and forth that way a few times just experiencing the Spirit coming and going. Then the Spirit gave me a couple insights: 1. Lies & deception cause the Spirit to leave; attacking God’s word causes the Spirit to leave (no surprise abt either of these); and 3. Ppl of other faiths who read these things abt us feel the darkness of the book & the Spirit withdrawing, & instead of associating their feelings of darkness w what they’re reading, they associate it w us… this is why they teach each other to avoid & fear us, & to hold us in such contempt. I imagine it’s similar when ppl read the CES letter or these other letters your speaking of. It’s heartbreaking.

Thank you, sisters, for this wonderful podcast. Three of my children have left the Church after reading the CES Letter. Two of them challenged me to read it and one other book about Brigham Young one of his wives who left the Church and wrote a book about it. So I said “Bring it on, praying like crazy for the Lord to guide me. I read the letter…all of it…and prayed for help. The answers came. I was told I already knew the answers from 4 years of Seminary , religion classes at BYU and Institute,and also from my own personal scripture studies. Then there were my own personal spiritual experiences. I told my children my answers. They were rejected. Oh well, back to praying they will return on their own. After all, God works in mysterious ways. Thanks again for your podcast. It comforts me to learn that there are saints who leave the Church and find their way back.

I’m 74 and I’ve always known about the seer stones. There was so much buzz about the CES letter and so I started reading it just to know what the buzz was about. I didn’t even have to read it all to know that it was deceptive. I’ve been in and out of the church several times. I will never leave again. My testimony is strong and I love Joseph Smith, I love the Book of Mormon and love the gospel of Christ. I love the fruits of the church…that’s how you know…by their fruits!

I am used to anti-LDS and anti-Christ literature. My personal research always ends the same way it did when I started reading the CES letter...shrugging my shoulders and realizing the authors of anti-literature have certain characteristics in common when they typically expose their personal motives in their own writings. In nearly all cases there is a deep feeling of personal failure. Most people are humble about this and move on with their lives, trying to do better. Some people can't accept this. About 9 percent of the general population are considered to have serious anti-personality disorders, such as histrionics or narcissism, meaning they must have a lot of attention or control over others. The other thing in common is they search for, or create hate groups that provide a shared misery, so they don't feel alone. The Church doesn't respond because there isn't any valid reason to respond other than to once again produce material that debunked these issues long ago. It is up to the individual to do the work themselves, if they want to know something. It's all available. The agency of people is something the LDS Church knows is fundamental to our trials.

It is so true that the exact same facts can be presented with opposing spirits. In a matter of faith, we have to turn to the author and finisher of our faith, Jesus Christ, so we can find truth

Her is my conundrum it's not hard to find supporting documentation for anything we want to disagree with. I wanted to find out if the church was true and after putting in the effort I prayed about it and got the confirmation from the Holy Ghost, now I don't get caugh up in the CES stuff or anything else. I just remind myself of the day the Holy Ghost confirmed the truth to me. I, like a everyone else has had many diffiulties to work through. It's not easy, but it is certainly worth it. I look forward to the return of Christ. Thank you for the work that you do through your channel. It's great to have something positive to turn to. :)

Sarah is the GOAT! ❤❤❤

This was so good and I pray people will listen to this and realize the CES letter was created with the help of the adversary. I've never read it and I won't. I don't need to. I already know why it was written in the first place. Satan goes thru people to try and get them to do things to lead us astray but it doesn't work for me. It never has. Thank you for doing this podcast that is such a positive tool to bring people back in the fold and it's working.❤

The CES letter has the worst fruit of separating families, starting with the relationship with Heavenly Father. It surprises me that anyone falls for such an evil work. Thank you ladies for your hard work to bring people back to the family!!

It's not just the absence of the Holy Ghost...but also, the PRESENCE...of the evil spirit of the Accuser of the Brethren, the Liar and the father of lies, the spirit that worketh in the sons of disobedience. Words are not just letters on a page...it is what SPIRIT is behind them. Much love, very informative, thanks! David

We must turn to heavenly Father, just as Joseph Smith did to find out truth. The CES letter is anything but humble! I am reminded of the statement made by President Gordon B Hinckley about pornography to deleting trash and run from it.

I love the emphasis on the spirit at the end of the video! That is so important. I have actually read the entire CES letter. When I read it I read it by itself, so not along with any rebuttal or answers, which can be very bad because the letter is designed to be manipulative and attack the Church. (I can tell you it does indeed drive away the spirit and anything that does so should be avoided. I'm not saying it was a good idea.) I was the perfect person to have been misled from it, but it didn't affect my faith at all. I was only 15 at the time of reading it, I read through the entire thing by itself, and I am genuinely a very gullible person and not very mature, especially at the time. I was not aware of many of those criticisms at the time, either. I simply heard of it on RU-vid and was curious what it was and it annoyed me that there was some mystical thing that I didn't know what it was. So, to get rid of that annoying feeling of not knowing what it was, I read it. But it didn't affect my faith AT ALL. Not even a little. Not in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, not in the modern day Church, definitely not in The Book of Mormon, and it didn't even come close to even beginning to penetrate my faith in Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. I believed just as much as before. Now, that didn't mean I had the answers to those questions. I was genuinely confused about lots of what I read, and it did actually bother me. It just didn't disturb my faith. Those are very different things. But over time, I received answers to those questions. The letter's issues don't bother me anymore because I am more informed than I was at the time. The reason I'm sharing this comment is because I think I know why it didn't affect my faith. Due to certain life challenges, I have had amazing encounters with God through the Holy Ghost I cannot deny, confirming me truth. And it truly is more powerful than anything else, and I can say with certainty anyone who claims The Holy Ghost is "Just a feeling we make up" is wrong. I make a LOT of mistakes and have many weaknesses but one thing I'm grateful for is the gift God has given me of being able to feel the Holy Ghost. I know for myself, and no one can take that away. It's not because of anything I've done, it's just a gift God has given me. I may not be able to convince anyone else that God exists and the Holy Ghost isn't just a made up feeling though, that is something everyone will have to learn themselves. I could share some amazing experiences on here but RU-vid really isn't the space for that and it would take too long. But the thing is, no amount of distorted information and information designed to attack without giving the entire story can shake the Holy Ghost. That's why a witness of the spirit is so crucial. And I'm glad I had so many experiences early, or my story could have been very different. That's not to say we must rely on the Holy Ghost because facts are not in our favor. Not even close. I believe there are MANY facts that are very strong support for our Churches beliefs, especially for the Book of Mormon. I personally think the facts fit better in my own opinion for the truthfulness of the Church than any of the criticisms fit for the Church not being true. The facts, from what I see, are in favor for our Church. But what I am saying is that the Holy Ghost is the most effective, and important, way to know truth, not facts. It's vital we seek those experiences constantly, and never forget what they meant to us at the time. As the scriptures say, "Deny not the power of God." Thank you so much for this video!!!

If you have a desire to prove the church wrong God wont open up the mysteries of the gospel to you because He won't be mocked He works through the Holy Spirit and when we want to be negative about the church we don't have the Holy Spirit to guide us and Satan will suport us instead we are in the last days and we have to stay strong by being humble faithful and prayerful and study the scriptures and listen to our prophet and authorities who have revelation from God to guide us

Thank you! I know for me, every time I have a question or I'm struggling with a gospel principle or the anti stuff like the CES letter, when I go in prayer, I always let my Heavenly Father know, I will not let go of what I do know to be true and the things that the spirit already testified to me. I won't throw aside all the good for what I don't know or understand yet and I'll be patient with your timing and answers, then I ask for help and understanding. I can't even begin to explain the wonderful, profound answers I've received! Lately the words that JS said has been ringing in my ear as truth to even my experiences...I know, and God knows, and God knows I know! Therefore I can not deny it. Much love for share light and truth ❤️

The CES Letter is like the Anti-Book of Mormon. It makes sense: a text with a fictitious origin story, largely plagiarized, carrying a spirit of bitterness and antagonism, defended in denial of its demonstrable deficiencies as the defining document of their anti-faith.

Blake Ostler said to the effect - Most people don't have the background in history, philosphy, theology or biblical criticism to EVALUATE the evidence, let alone, draw conclusions. Christ called fisherman - not theologians to be witness of Him. His Church is designed to develop disciples, not historians. These other disciplines are important, but are not the basis of our faith or discipleship.

I wish everyone could have had my experience (at baptism, at age 25, in 1953). It has sustained me with the many questions about my faith that arose during all these years. I don't think I would have survived those encounters without that experience. For people with less than average intelligence, like me, The Holy Ghost is essential to know the truthfulness of The Restored Gospel. Thank you Heavenly Father.

Thanks! I have a child that has all but left because of the CES Letter. He tells me the book is garbage yet when they tell me what is bothering them they go down a list that is almost point by point from this garbage. They ask me if I know about this stuff and I tell them yes. I agree history is messy and if I based my testimony on the garbage I would have left. God works through flawed people, he has no choice. I have chosen to deal with gospel principles because they are not flawed. The gospel is black and white. I will choose the light as I was brought the anti stuff while I was on my mission by other Elders that were shook. I would research the garbage and then set down with the Elder and lay it out for him. No one ever quit or went home. This has continued through out my life. The main thing I have noticed is that if a person will no longer rely on the Holy Ghost for an answer because they have been told that this is flawed thinking there is no persuasion or words that will get through to them. Keep smiling, hold strong and remember that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true. The church is but a framework of flawed people brought together by our Lord and Savior in order to worship and learn. We all need his help and the inspiration of the Holy Ghost to lead us back to God. I’m so grateful all of them and what they bring with them. Bless you all. The Gospel is true God lives and his Son Jesus Christ lives.

Ashley, I'm very impressed with your questions. You're an excellent interviewer. Wonderful job. Thank you ladies.

Sarah, you give very, very sound advice. I have had similar experiences as you have with my ability to believe. The CES letter has been one of Satan’s greatest tools to create doubt in the minds and hearts of the elect in these last days. I have a son who had this “work” passed from elder to elder on his mission. I have found that the Lord has helped me greatly with the ability to believe, despite the objection to Christ’s Church. This is a very important to discuss and get out on the web so people can hear a TRUE rebuttal to the garbage that the CES letter is. This IS Gods kingdom on earth preparing us. The Bridegroom Cometh !

Thank you for sharing what you now about this letter l don’t have the desire to read because I have testimony 😊

Thank you for creating and posting this episode Ashly, Lauren, and Sarah. As Sarah so eloquently pointed out: "... when I have questions ... I do my own studying and I look at things from different sides, but I always lean on Heavenly Father, I always keep Him in the loop." I find that when I have questions I just need to go back to the principle that began the Restoration, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God ..." Thank you again!

Thank you so much for doing this video!

History Lesson Part 2 of 3 Joseph Smith never implied or suggested he used a seer stone in a hat when translating the Book of Mormon. Historians like to claim that JS used a seer stone “for convenience,” because the breastplate and two stones set in silver bows were too bulky. Trouble is this was an assumption made by an Edward Stephenson who gave a late account of Martin Harris telling him he had once swapped a regular stone for the seer stone to test Joseph. In 1870 Stephenson had raised money to bring MH, age 87, to settle with the saints in Utah. MH supposedly told him the stone swapping story on that train ride. Stephenson, however, didn’t record or publicize this account until 1881, 11 years after the train ride and 52 years after the alleged event. Martin Harris had been dead for six years by this time. This is a singular account that MH told no one else. Interestingly, MH was interviewed by the Des Moine Iowa State Register on that same train ride. The article published August 28, 1870 states that MH claimed Joseph translated the plates using the U&T. Also in 1870 John A Clark from a non-LDS newspaper interviewed Harris and recorded that MH claimed JS sat behind a curtain and “pretended” to translate the plates by using the U&T . JS only testified to using the U&T in BOM translation. Before translation, he practiced writing and translating the characters. And don’t forget Martin Harris took a copy of the characters and translation to scholars to have them certified that JS’s translation was correct. In Section 10 of the D&C, we learn that JS lost not only the gift of translation because Martin lost the first 116 pages, but that the plates and U&T were returned to him after having been taken from him for a period of time. The Lord commanded JS not to reinterpret what we know was the Book of Lehi. In vs 38 The Lord directed him, “And now, verily I say unto you, that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your hands, is engraven upon the plates of Nephi;...41 Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained;” One must ask why the any reference to engravings and why specific instructions about where to begin on the plates if the Lord was just giving him words that appeared on a stone? I know, I know but Joseph never claimed or hinted that he used both. Historians only can assume he did when they accept late second hand hearsay accounts from people who had a falling out with Joseph. I will discuss Emma later. Also consider D&C Section 9, a revelation given to Oliver Cowdery explaining why he couldn’t translate from the plates when given an opportunity with permission from the Lord. The Lord said by revelation to OC: “ 3 Be patient, my son,..... it is not expedient that you should translate at this present time. 6 Do not murmur,....7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. (Wouldn’t words appearing on stone be considered the Lord “just giving it” to OC as well as JS?) 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.” What did Oliver fail to study out in his mind if words were to just appear on a stone in a hat? Why couldn’t he just read them like JS? In Joseph Smith, 1935 (Elders’ Journal I.3:42 Paragraph 20-43) Joseph was asked: “Question 4th. How and where did you obtain the Book of Mormon? [Joseph Smith’s reply] “... Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the Book of Mormon was translated…appeared unto me and told me where they were…I obtained them and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon.” In Joseph Smith History 1:35, Joseph states “Also, that there were two stones in silver bows---and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim---deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers'' in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.”

Thank you, sisters!,!!,! This was excellent. I share your podcast with many ! Sorry to hear anti’s give you grief. Know that people like me love you dearly and are cheering you on.

When I was a new missionary, my trainer and I met with a really cool guy of about 25 yrs old. The lesson was full of really great questions... I was very impressed. My trainer was not... He stated that the questions came from anti Mormon pamphlets that he had back at our apartment. I was so very disappointed with that guy... thinking his questions were his... thinking that he was a free thinker... well the next visit we were prepared to deal with his questions... but before we could even start the lesson this guy apologized for his questions the previous. He explained that he did not have time to prepare before meeting with us for our first lesson. But after we left he finished his anti Mormon pamphlets and figured out on his own the many holes and falsehoods the information he had used to question us. So He was open to listening from a clean plate. He was great to teach... He did not join the church... at least at that time. But He became a really defender of us. People who are honest in heart tend to work through the false information and the anti info becomes useless... except that it exposes the lies other religious groups put forth.

This was so good! Thank you for publishing this!

I sent 2 comments to the CES Letter clearly explaining that Paul Gregersen demonstrates Joseph Smith was right, the Egyptologists were wrong on the Book of Abraham. I still haven't heard back from the CES Letter.

Sarah Allen, you Rock!!

How people don’t think they will be held accountable for lies that pull people from their faith is just so crazy to me. Yes we need to do our own due diligence, but the CES letter and Mormon Stories making a living off destroying the church of God will have a price to be paid.

I read 1 Nephi 15 today and was enlightened when I read verse 3. "For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord" speaking of the things Lehi taught and the angel was teaching Nephi. This goes along with Sarah's testimony to always "keep Heavenly Father in the loop." Nephi's brothers struggled so much partly because they never sincerely prayed for themselves. They dwell on finding evidences outside of the spirit. And have a bad habit of complaining! This is a plague that effects many many people.

Thank you for all of your hard work!

THANK YOU SISTERS ❤❤❤for this informative podcast... I am 66 yrs old and grew up in the SL valley... I have been happily living in So. Alberta Canada 🇨🇦 ♥️ 🍁 for 46 years... I never knew about the CES Letters... Growing up around anti-mormon/LDS crap, I will always STAY AWAY from reading any of that kind of "literature" ... knowing first hand how DARK a certain pamphlet I was "handed" on a street outside the SL Temple Grounds, as a youth, made me feel! 😮It went into the nearest garbage can! 🗑The adversary is working overtime to destroy and separate families ! 😢 I am so grateful to our Heavenly Father for giving us the GIFT OF PRAYER 🙏❤ Three of our four children have "gone astray", but we keep loving ALL FOUR of them ❤❤❤❤and ALL our Grands❤!! Prayer and Temple Prayer Lists are a "constant" ! 🙏 I am so thankful ❤SARAH, that you are SUCH A STRONG SPIRIT, not being blinded by the deceptive "words", and have been able to help others COME BACK after the EVIL "letter" caused them to stray! ❤😊 GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU SWEET SISTA❤ ... ALL THREE OF YOU❤❤❤ These are definitely THE LAST DAYS!! ✨️

I am so happy I watched this episode today. I’ve never read the CES letters and have had no desire however I’ve wanted to know what about them have made members walk away. I have been blessed with the ability to feel deeply about spiritual issues. I have leaned to separate The Church, members and the “messy” history from The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s sad to me that so many have taken these letters and let them destroy their relationship with the Church….and they are so angry.

Thank you, Sister Allen.

@Lauren and all, I have about 20 podcasts and youtube channels that I can refer you to! Let me know if you want a list! Some good ones to start with are: Lets Get Real with Stephen Jones, Church History Matters Podcast, Unshaken, Don’t Miss this, Revival Podcast, so many good and uplifting channels out there that I have found more impactful talks and videos from the algorithm then anything else! Use the algorithm to help find more useful channels and once you keep clicking on faith positive channels it will continue to recommend them. I hardly ever see anti stuff anymore, just filled with faith affirming stuff! Christian Homestead, Christian Fire Poppy, Brad Wilcox talks on Grace, I could go on forever!

Thank you for sharing this wonderful story! How strong a testimony to be able to combat the negative impact of the “letter” on people.

Glad you guys had her on! I lost a brother to the CES Letter. I don't know when he'll come back, but I think it's good if we can help inoculate members against destructive lies by helping them know what's out there and where the good sources are. Thanks!

Thank you so much for sharing your insights about the infamous letter. I have been a member for 45 years and had never heard of the letter until about a year ago on another LDS RU-vid channel. I have no desire to read it. It will not influence my testimony. Anti-Mormon propaganda has been around since Joseph Smith’s time. People who trade in this propaganda never present any new arguments. All the letter did for its author and for others is to provide excuses for leaving. Their excuses will not be supported at the last day.

Thank you for the wonderful content.

Good job girls, I agree, I don’t have time to read garbage like the CES letters, I’m to busy filling callings, providing for a family and just enjoying life. The gospel of Jesus Christ has saved my life, I’m not about to spit in that face. Rather worship the savior.

Arn’t falsehoods included in the CES letter? Then how can one rely on it?

The CES letter is excellent at laying out antimormon with no evidence to back them up. It's successful because actual research is hard and is somewhat of a specialized skill.

All any honest member has to do when confronted with this letter, is to go to the Joseph Smith papers website and start reading all the original resources from the first 100 years of the church, every answer to every “question” in that letter can be found there… Heavenly Father already provided the rebuttal before the letter even became a thing, just like he did 116 pages Nothing any of us do surprises Heavenly Father, and anything we could ever think of had already been seen by Heavenly Father, and he has already compensated for it I love the church, I love Heavenly Father, and I love that Heavenly Father cares that truth can be found, and that he makes sure truth is provided to be found

This was great. Couple thoughts: 1) Faith is a choice, and as President Nelson puts it, "The Lord loves effort." 2) Sometimes people who leave the church will say that they made sure to read their scriptures at the same time as they read faith destroying literature like the CES letter. There's a problem with that. Reading the scriptures is incredibly important -- it's like chicken soup for the soul, but garbage like the CES letter isn't the opposite of food in this analogy, it's more like poison. Direct rebuttals like the one Sarah Allen put together are important antidotes. Thank you for doing what you do.

Thanks for sharing this! I think CES should stand for 'Cynical, Extremely Selective and Superficial' Letter. That's actually CESS but it fits. Typical to a lot of anti-Latter-day Saint material, it is a 'gishgallop' of recycled criticisms that have been around for a long time, and which have been already addressed in detail by faithful Latter-day Saints. From wikipedia: A 'gishgallop' is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments. On some of the topics brought up in that 'letter', our knowledge has increased over the years, as far as all the nitty-gritty details. With some of the topics, most earlier church members had false assumptions about which we are just in recent years acquiring more information on, which clarifies things, while debunking the accusations, which actually makes our case stronger than before.

I've heard several scholarly refutations of points (questions?) in the CES letter. One time I decided to sit down and read it and make notes all the way through. After the first few pages, I was too disgusted and bored to continue. It is pathetic. I truly feel sorry for those who get swept up in it.

So I just watched your video with Sarah. I was baptized in 1971 in Waco Texas at the age of 24. A year or two after that I went up to Palmyra to visit the area and the pageant. Went to the Joseph Smith farm and walk across the street to go into the woods to the sacred Grove The street was public, and there were people on the street in the road handing out pamphlets So I took the pamphlets, put them in my pocket and went onto the sacred Grove A few days later, I looked at those pamphlets and found out that they were criticizing the church where I as an adult chose to be baptized in Waco I thought to myself how dare these people it’s my choice and my decision. And then I took a look at what the pamphlets had to say, and being a methodical scientist type at heart, I decided to find out if these accusations were valid or not So my first thought, and taking apart, the barrage of anti-sentiments Was too isolate each one one by one and look into its validity. So, as I began to look into each one, I found it fell into three categories … superficial and Not valid 75%, Needing further research (20%), And those for which I could not find an answer, but had faith that answered, will come sometime in the future (5%). None of this shook my faith But over the years I’ve seen and had access to other anti-Mormon stuff I found that it was a rehash of the same things I had previously categorized This sounds like what the CES letter is. So I’m not interested in reading the 60 pages. I’ve already done it and made my choices. Some of my friends are fallen away, including a wife and children. I am remarried and sealed to a faithful woman since 1996 And we are both very active in our ward in Utah Isn’t it interesting how all the other Christian denominations get along with each other but all of them gather together collectively to attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Over the past couple of years, I’ve learned a lot about the history of Christianity since Christ resurrection Like the other host, my testimony has grown by leaps and bounds, looking into the anti-Mormon stuff, and the history of Christianity I’ve learned that Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, which set the stage, for Hitler’s atrocities in Germany, came up with the solas, which are totally un biblical, and basically adopted Satans plan to kill everyone that didn’t believe his way! Anyway, keep up the good work!

Hi, I just stumbled across this podcast for the first time and it's just what I needed today, thank you. At about 20 minutes you mentioned polygamy and that you've talked about it several times. And in the past 24 hours, He has been teaching me about it heavily, and I really would love to see those podcasts where you talk about it. If you could please point me in the right direction, I would be so grateful! Thank you!

It’s so sad that they threatened her and her family.

Keep up the good work ladies #teamLDS

CES lettter was the silliest thing I read, I thought a 10yr old wrote it when it first came out. Thankfully the spirit testified to me the truthfulness of the BK of mormon and his church on earth despite the messy history and fallibility of man.

Great episode. The CES letter is possibly the worst piece of "research" I've ever read. So many instances of false information, quotes taken out of context to make them sound like they mean the opposite of what they actually mean, etc. The fact that Jeremy has to lie that much to make the church look false was a real eye opener and testimony-building experience for me.

Thanks for this discussion! As I listened, and then read some of the comments, I remembered the teaching at Alma 3:26-27, indicating that each of us receives spiritual influences in our lives, which guide and encourage us, depending upon our personal desires and efforts, and only 2 types of spiritual "influencers" exist. One type is from God, and the other is away from God, because the Book of Mormon also clearly teaches us, at Moroni 7:12, that "all good comes from God"!!

an amazing warrior woman

I love the Church and judge it by how I am treated.

Great podcast. I've studied anti-LDS information since high school in 1967. There are few "anti" arguments I haven't heard. Most of their arguments are easily discredited. And yet, there continues to be more and more evidence that didn't exist 50 years ago confirming the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I would highly recommend a podcast to anyone who has questions. It's called "Church History Matters," with Casey Griffiths and Scott Woodward. They explore critical thinking and give an insightful way to address Church historical problems. I had my wayward son listen to these podcasts, He said it has helped him more than any other thing he's done. The Church is true!! If you don't know that yet, you haven't studied and prayed enough.

❤

Where can I find Sarah Allen’s rebuttal to the CES Letter? Please and thank you Sarah. Love your work!

That letter is evil! But Many that have left are already returning. I bet you they do not dare to write such lies and twisted facts about the muslins or anyone else. I know the Church is the only one guided and directed by Christ himself. Judas, one of the apostles betrayed Christ and Peter denied him three times. But the church was still the church of Jesus Christ. There is a lat of great literature to be read, a lot of people suffering in the world, al lot of charity to be done, a lot of missionaries that need financial support back in my country that do not have money for a suitcase or a passport. Those are the ones I put my energy on. The people who write those letters are acting like mean dogs barking at the caravan, but the caravan moves on and the gospel will continue to grow and help people repent and follow Christ in the correct way. The way he wants us to. All bad things have an origin and that is Satan himself. I do not understand why we are so gullible as to feel like they and that letter deserves any of our time. I bet you many who read it don't spent that much time reading the scriptures like God wants us to.

Where can we read Sarah’s rebuttal to the CES LETTER? Thank you Sarah for all your tedious work and diligent research in finding answers and truth. Also your prayers and seeking answers from the lord.

The CES letter was written to confuse and distort the understanding and testimonies of people who are teetering on the edge of activity in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Some of my children have read it and have left the church. The letter gives just enough information to sound reasonable but doesn’t give all the details. I read it because my children challenged me to,hoping I would come to the same conclusions they had. They didn’t count on me going to the Lord in prayer. I dove into the scriptures. And then I asked myself what did I feel when I read the CES letter, then what did I feel reading the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price. What did I feel when reading and listening to Conference talks and attending Sacrament Meeting. When I immerse myself in negative thoughts and literature about the Church I feel a darkness come over me. Whenever I read, pray and attend Church meetings the Holy Ghost enters my heart and testifies that this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is indeed the Lord’s church. And if I don’t understand all of what happened in the past it doesn’t matter. Because someday will. Unfortunately, my kids don’t have the patience to do what I did. They want the easy way out. And so do many others. I’m always glad to learn that someone comes back to the Church. I hope and pray that my children will too.❤😊❤😊

Such awesome work, ladies! Thank you! ❤️🙏

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So interesting! Amazing stories always! I could do with a transcript though, the sound isn't the best on this episode.

I have sent 2 comments to the CES Letter on the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the Egyptologist opinions against Joseph Smith by presenting proper interpretational understanding on translation. The CES Letter never responded back.

Ah yes, the CES letter.... well worded assumptions that amount to hot garbage 😂

The letter is something I never want to read. There are so many lies out there. I have seen miracles through the Priesthood power in healings physical and spiritual that cannot be denied. A grandmother on my line was married to Parley P Pratt. The miracles in his autobiography and testimony just can't be denied IMO. The testimonies of early saints willing to leave foreign countries to come and build up zion had to be utterly life changing because the spirit was undeniable when the gospel was taught to them. The missionaries have great power to teach and share powerful testimonies. History is messy and often the opposite of what is true. Just look at our evening news.

I spent a lot of time reading anti Mormon stuff online and I almost left the church because of it. I had written and sent my letter to have my name removed I was getting rid of any Mormon literature I had I had made up my mind that the church was false but I picked up the come follow me off the shelf and it opened up to Lehi’s dream about the iron rod and the tree of life and I prayed about it. I then texted my bishop like hey I made a mistake I don’t want to leave the church instead I ended up enrolling in a Book of Mormon class. We should absolutely be careful not to take the things we read online at face value you have to be critical about it where did they get this information from how reliable is it is it bias etc but more than anything as president counsels we should look to spiritual sources to find truth and ask ourselves also if the things we read, watch or listen to are going to help us to draw closer to Christ if the answer is no then we probably shouldn’t be looking at it or listening to it.

History Lesson Part 3 of 3 Unfortunately, too many of our Church Historians such as Leonard Arrington (1970 to 1980) and Richard Bushman were part of a group they called “The Swearing Elders.” These “Elite” scholars,who also embraced Marxism and Darwinism, did not believe JS was a prophet who translated the BOM. He was an uneducated country bumpkin who in no way could read Reformed Egyptian. The Swearing Elders concluded that the only way JS could produce the BOM was to make it up but that would make him out to be a genius, or by having the Lord reveal it to him word for word on a stone in a hat. The STITH theory was not new to early members of the Church. It began circulating when the BOM was first published and became prevalent following the widely circulated 1834 Anti mormon publication, “Mormonism Unvailed” by E.B. Howe. “Mormonism Unvailed” presented three possible origins of the BOM. It addressed the original common knowledge claims by JS that he sat behind a veil or curtain in his one room cabin and translated the plates by means of the U&T while Martin Harris acted as scribe. Howe suggested that JS was really sitting behind the curtain reading from the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript, a story about Roman sailors being blown off track, landing in North American and exploring the Mound Builder Civilization. “Mormonism Unvailed” mocked an alternate claim that JS read the words revealed to him off a dark colored stone placed in a hat because, first, it was common knowledge that he sat behind a curtain; Secondly, why all the effort to make plates, engrave the plates, and hide and protect plates that were not needed? Apostate David Whitmer widely perpetuated the STITH claim as evidence that JS was a fallen prophet. Whitmer claimed that because Joseph lost the 116 pages the Lord punished him by not returning the U&T. As a fallen prophet he was forced to resort to a seer stone. JS and Lucy Smith both recorded that the plates and U&T were returned. What of “Emma’s Last Testimony" we hear quoted from so often? Here are some facts regarding it: Emma’s last testimony was a supposed interview recorded by Joseph Smith III, President of the RLDS Church and published in “Saint's Herald,” Vol. 26, No 19 p. 289. (1 October 1879) Emma had died six months earlier on April 30, 1879, age 74. In a letter to William Smith, JSIII stated that his mother “was fast failing” when he arrived. (One must question her mental state at this time. No account of mental state given however.) The interview included a question about JS’s involvement in polygamy which Emma denied. Historians do not accept her account of polygamy because of too much evidence to the contrary. However they accept her account of the STITH which contradicts D&C 9, 10 and 14 our canonized scripture and other first hand accounts. In her last testimony, Emma claims she wrote hour after hour while his (JSIII’s) father (JS) sat with his face buried in a hat as he dictated from the stone with nothing between them. The motive for stating that there was nothing between them was to counter the widely accepted “Mormonism Unvailed” claim that JS sat behind a curtain and dictated the BOM from the Solomon Spaulding manuscript. At the time of Emma’s death JS III was fighting against the Spaulding manuscript claims as well as claims that his father had started polygamy. Polygamy was the dividing issue between the Brighamites (The saints who moved west) and the Josephites (Those who remained and denounced polygamy). Josephites established the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Nine years early in 1870, Emma, corresponding with her friend, Emma Pilgrim, wrote in her own hand, the following regarding BOM translation: “Now, the first part my husband translated, was translated by the use of the Urim and Thummin, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost. After that he used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color. I cannot tell whether that account in the Times and Seasons is correct or not because someone stole all my books and I have none to refer to at present, if I can find one that has that account I will tell you what is true and what is not.” NOTE: If Emma had sat hour after hour writing while Joseph sat with his face buried in a hat as he dictated, why didn’t she tell this to her friend in 1870. She stated in response to her friend’s inquiry that she couldn’t recall how the BOM was translated after the first 116 pages without her articles and books. But she had no problem remembering “while fast failing” on her deathbed nine years later? In this 1870 letter, Emma mentions the stone but can’t remember any details about how it was used without referring to her Times and Seasons articles and books that she says were stolen. This shows that she was not a first hand witness to the STITH theory. Her account therefore is hearsay. Emma describes the stone but does not outright state she had seen it. That she saw it can only be assumed. When refuting David Whitmer's claim regarding JS being a fallen Prophet, JS III, in the "Saints Herald, volume 33, o. 45, November 13, 1886 refutes the STITH by referring to Oliver Cowdery's Letter I of 8 (1834) and his father's John Wentworth Letter published in 1842. These state Joseph Smith's claims of BOM translation of the plates by means of the U&T. " JS III stated the following from this "Saints Herald '' Article " [It] must be allowed that these men best knew by what means the Book of Mormon was translated and the "chief instrument" was the interpreters.” JS III accepted his father had a seer stone but he completely invalidated Emma’s Last Testimony by accepting the U&T translation and not citing her last testimony in the Saints Herald article. It must also be noted that the OC Letter I which JS had copied into his personal history which gives it more credibility, was written to refute the false translation claims, (STITH and Spalding Manuscript) made in "Mormonism Unvailed. Here is an ASSUMPTION not to be accepted as fact: In many Section headings of the D&C it notes that the revelations were given to JS through the U& T. Since Joseph was not allowed to show anyone the U&T maybe he put the stones and his face in the hat as he dictated the revelations. Perhaps witnesses to these revelations assumed that that is how he translated the BOM:) Decide for yourself. I side with Joseph.

I very much appreciate this episode. I don’t intend to read the letter. I think it’s mean to make one’s life goal destroying the faith of others. If Mr. Jeremy has something beautiful to offer the world, I’m all ears. But so far I’ve not heard of anything like that. Unfortunately your guest’s speech patterns are very hard to understand. I’m halfway through the episode and resetting the playback speed to .75 and I hope I can better understand the rest.

Ironically, the Gospel Topics Essays have driven more members away from the Church than the infamous CES Letter: the state of LDS apologetics is dismal. Good that Sarah responded to the CES Letter, but regretfully ten years too late…

I thought this podcast was going to be about giving answers but sadly it was not. You should never be scared to ask questions

Im still waiting for some debunking, end of the podcast and did not get anything 😢

Except that Joseph Smith never said he used seer stones. People once close to Joseph Smith but had left the church created the story that Bro Smith used seer stones. This whole confusion was created by apostates. By the way, I don’t mind reading the CES letter because reading ant-lds materials is what further strengthened my testimony. It has an opposite effect on me. Sunday eve - January 14, 2024.

Anyone who reads the letter should also read Helaman 5 and see what real conversion looks like. After fighting a 30+ year war the Lamanites voluntarily gave up the cities they had taken after incredible bloodshed. Why? Because they were converted

Hey, LDS member here. I'd like to preface that I have made it to 12:00 minutes into the video, I find it very odd that the speaker on the left says "I haven't read the CES letter because I don't have time for that. Second, I already know what it says because I've interviewed enough people that have left over the CES letter." Why would you make excuses and then explain that, "Third I have no desire to read it" your desire seems to be based in your bias towards the church.

The fruit of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is sweet and abundant! There is no point of hacking at the wood or digging at the roots. You've been raised in joy and peace. What are their fruits that we should follow _them_ ? "Take no council from unbelievers." Know that the accusers will *_never_* stop. They are defeated only by your faith in The Atonement of Jesus, your testimony and your covenants. -Revelation 12:10,11

Near Sharon Vermont?? In the early nineteenth century??!🤣 That is so preposterous. Any easterner would roll their eyes so big and break down laughing.

I dont know if the spirit necessarily dips when we are faced with controversy or things contrary to our beliefs. The spirit is a guide and a shield and a teacher. He wouldnt bounce the second we need him. But some speculation is 1 maybe that dark feeling is a warning of hey you are in a danger zone. Like when you meet someone that makes your hair stand up or like you walk into an area and you feel dread like something bad is going to happen. That could be intinct or a warning from the spirit. Not him leaving. The spirit brings peace and clarity. 2 maybe he leaves when he is replaced by doubt??? Or fear. Fear and doubt are the opposite of faith. When you doubt I feel that could be a reason for the spirit to withdraw like the apostle walking out on water to run to Jesus then doubting and sinking into the water. I just feel that the spirit doesnt run or hide from outside influences, but will warn and guide. What might chase away the spirit is internal (doubt, contentious feelings or any other negative thing)

I thought I should take a look at this CES Letter, but I started into it and quickly could see it was mostly just a rehash of Jerald and Sandra Tanner's endless lists of straw-man arguments against the church . . .

I love how subjective personal experiences (or experiencing “elevated emotion” people will define as absolute truth and plug their ears and cover their eyes to anything that is objective historical truth, and then paint them all as antimormon lies makes no sense..??? Anytime your reading anything that challenges your beliefs of course your going to be getting an uncomfortable feeling (it’s challenging your psychology of something a person has been conditioned to that it is not safe and therefore comes across as a warning to the individual ), but defined as the holy ghost warning the individual. Facts don’t care about feelings, and religious ideology that is discussed here puts Feelings before facts…. I guess to each there own.

I guess I am getting old seeing I've written twice already. ha-ha

The letter simply points out facts both historical and contemporary regarding the Book of Mormon, church prophets and church formation. It was published by a disabled guy and is available for free. The church acknowledges the truthfulness of much of the letter. Read it and draw your own conclusions. Don't allow confirmation bias to cloud judgement and be mindful that you may not have all the answers and that's ok.

Fantastic episode. The CES letter is intellectually manipulative, Letter To My Wife is emotionally manipulative.

The CES Letter was made known to LDS scholars before it became public-I remember it circulating before publication. Church scholars and leaders were too arrogant to respond to it, and didn’t finally respond, until damage had already snowballed. Total neglect of the congregation on the part of the institution. The CES & Correlation has no accountability or responsibility to the flock. So tragic. A lot of the fallout could have been avoided.

While I do not doubt the sincerity of Sarah Allen, she and the "Come Back Podcast" beats around the bush. What are the basic issues raised in the CES Letter? You are quick to do an ad hominem attack against Jeremy Runnells--why he wrote the CES Letter has nothing to do with the validity of the arguments. Next, you select a few weak arguments in the CES letter, making it seem like the entire document is that way. While the CES letter showed me there were numerous problems with the truthfulness of the Church, the FAIR Mormon website showed me many were legit. FAIR Mormon damaged my testimony more than the CES letter did. I am sure many former believers will support me on this point. To find the truth, read the CES letter, read the rebuttals, and read the source documentation. It will take time, but it's worth it. (If you think the CES letter is too "scary," then read a rebuttal and the source documents.)

It's honestly v strange that you hosted a podcast on it without reading it. It's not that long. I read it in a couple hours. I'm still at the beginning of this vid; I hope your guest has some insight at least. :/

A Never-Mo here on my investigation journey. I am looking at both faithful/apologetic podcasts as well as those from the Ex-Mo side. Just starting this particular podcast but wondering about the meaning of the intro graphic wording about CES letter. I can understand a channel like this not promoting it, but I'm a big fan of reading anything and everything out there, pro or con, so that a complete informed picture can be had as part of my investigation. I'll add other questions or comments about the podcast after this. Not sure what to expect .............. .....So it's a day later because it took that long to watch this 36 minute podcast with all of the stops and starts so that I could really take it in. That is a long time and I usually reserve that much time only for the 3-6 hour long format podcasts. I guess I was expecting Sarah to do a complete point-counterpoint of the complete CES Letter from her perspective but that wouldn't be fair in 36 minutes. I did read it myself way back towards the start of my journey along with a very long rebuttal and everyone reading this can imagine the many many different rabbit holes one has to go down to research things completely and why I am now at 2600 hours. Sarah's stance, as well as Ashly and Lauren's was from the pure faithful with no allowance that any of Jeremy's points might hold water and I can understand why that stance is being taken. You aren't John Dehlin after all. Now I still enjoy for myself being able to have somewhat of a neutral stance on all of the points of contention between the TBMs and the Ex-Mo's or Anti dang if it isn't like red ants and black ants trying to rip each other's bodies apart (or Lamanites and Nephites 🤣). I can appreciate many Mormon things on the TBM side but with 2600 hours behind me, I've also devoured the real historical research on some of the more contentious items. I also know very well that many TBMs are quite hesitant to dig deep into that research and I believe I heard all 3 of you say that you felt gross if you looked at it too much. Trust me, there are many Ex-Mo's that feel gross for having to go to a Bishop and he asks you things that seem like questions from a pedo, especially if you are a 14 y/o girl. Gross swings both ways. The response that I see from the Anti's and Ex-Mo's to their shelf items is to deconstruct each or all of them and that often unleashes bitterness on their part for the betrayal that they feel. I get that part. It's a very common way to deal with perceived betrayal. The response from the TBMs when they encounter the shelf items of others is often described as a need to Pay, Pray, Obey. I heard all three of you talking about these, well not the Pay but I think I can assume that part else there would go the temple recommend. I have learned that Mormon scandalous news travels like wildfire amongst the Mormons so I'm guess most of you now know of a Nick and Amanda Jones, he being the Bishop who resigned from the pulpit a few weeks ago. It's a long 3.5 hour podcast in his very own words along with Amanda's, but even TBMs probably wonder why a Bishop of all people would lose his faith and with lots of tears, tells everyone why he has made that decision. The longer version is the podcast outside of church and you all know how to find it. But, with my 2600 hours of investigation, I also see what he learned and why he felt gross staying in the church. Gross swings both ways. I head up to Utah next week in the Lehi/Provo area for a visit with the all-in TBM brother-in-law (also a Bishop), and we will have some incredible conversations as we always do on any/all of these topics. Neither of us feel gross, but boy do those conversations get messy but in a very grown up, mostly respectful, and friendly way. When he says whack stuff like if Russell Nelson told him to stop eating salt, he would stop eating it right then, I roll my eyes and tell him that both of them are nutcases. And if he dare tells me that if Russell has instructed him to deliver his 14 y/o granddaughter to him, someone's getting an ass kicking - not sure which. But ain't gonna have no Helen Mar Kimball stuff going on and that part is final. (And I hope I truly mis-understood one of you whom I thought said that polygamy actually strengthened her testimony). He does like to tell me about the brown rock that lights up like an iPhone if you put it in the hat and I do smile at that because I know a Brad Wilcox special when I hear it. The overall point in this for the three of you, and anyone else out there who reads this, is to investigate investigate investigate. And don't feel gross about it, it's really okay. Tell God to protect you from any grossness as you investigate, he can handle that I'm sure. But, don't just exist in an echo chamber where all of you all just nod your heads up and down in agreement with each other because that really can look like the shiny happy people thing. Read about the BITE model. Google it.

For the life of me I cannot understand how people can believe anything rather than what the Holy Ghost told them was true. Do they realize that they are then denying the Holy Ghost?

Does Lauren say she started to read the letter with "her wife" ??? 5:46

I wasn't going to comment, but I feel this is so one-sided, it's maddening. Straw man tactics, conjecture, and speaking for runnels. Perhaps you should invite others to this discussion. Many people who left weren't, as you like to label them, anti Mormon. There are so many reasons for people leaving. What I appreciate about the ces letter author is that he provides active links to apologist websites. Please, a podcast which includes someone with an opposing view. I am sure you can find someone who would have a cordial discussion. Doing that will actually make you a bit more credible. When I read the ces letter I read everything he addressed, from all sources. Let's have an open discussion.

I’m a never Mormon so I don’t have a dog in this fight but admitting you haven’t read the CES letter is not a responsible stance if you want to be credible rebutting it.

Zero desire to read the CES letter. Daniel Peterson has stated he has looked at one section and found no legit stuff to even waste his time on. Very poorly researched and not worth wasting his time on.

I hear what you guys are saying and I understand that your faith and testimony should be enough to see you through problem areas ... the problem is though there is a point you guys are missing ... I know Sarah said as have many church leaders, that things like the seer stone and Josephs polygamy was not hidden by the church but to be fait, that really is stretching a point ... it may have been written somewhere on the churches website hidden beneath a ton of other stuff that you would have never found if you had not been specifically looking for it ... but the point is in the general churches teachings in handbooks and church lessons ... The Church taught it was the Urim and Thummim and the gold plates that Joseph translated from ... not a rock in a hat ... in the polygamy teachings I myself was taught way back in the late 80s that polygamy was to protect the poor widowed sisters who were destitute and on their own ... only again to find out that some of the women married to Joseph already had living husbands ... basically the church lies ... Yes the CES letter in itself looks at holes in the churches teachings that warrant explanations but that is only a small part of what the CES letter covers ... the bigger picture is the churches cover up and downplaying of the points the CES letter points out x

The CES letter has help expose what the church didn't want members to know. It then had no choice but to be more transparent about its untold history. In other words, the CES letter was not negative. It helped the church be more honest. That is how we should all be with each other and the church will be better for it.

Forget the CES letter. How about all the issues of today. Tax reporting. The Ballards. Hiding information.

The CES letter is very badly written and I’m surprised so many ppl fall victim to it. So glad to know it’s starting to get the reputation it deserves.

Thank you Ashley, Sarah and Loren. I hope anyone headed down an unbelieving path will reevaluate where that path leads. It is of Satan; and it leads to a dark place. Anyone or anything sowing doubt and disbelief are from Satan. Only God sows faith, hope, and belief. The Savior taught is in Matthew 7:20 that "by their fruits ye shall know them." The fruit of the CES Letter is rotten and bitter. As the Lord said in the Book of Ether, “And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good.” (Ether 4:12.) Doubters and disbelievers don't lead people to do good. They disguise darkness--the search for doubt--as light--the search for truth, but look where it leads them; into darkness and despair. That is how you will know them. Jesus Christ is the only way. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints is the Savior's church! May I suggest reviewing the 17 Points of the True Church as a faith building story that centers on key points of doctrinal light and finding that light. There is no other church on the earth that has all the truths and the authority to administer the ordinances of the gospel. Joseph Smith was God's prophet of the Restoration, and Russel M. Nelson is his prophet today. Thank you ladies for shining your light and the light of the gospel on the work of Satan.

People who leave the Church because of Anti Mormon literature etc were just waiting for an excuse to leave because they either think that they are greater than God or they think that they are greater than God