Exactly. I love this type of content and I love this video. Reminds me of people estimating Jesus' height by description: bigger than a baby and smaller than a temple. Excellent.
"Yes I know it's super niche and nerdy even for me but bear with me" Sir this is a LOTR lore analysis channel, this is literally what all of us craving for lmao
One interesting fact is that after Thorin’s death in the hobbit, they laid Orcrist on his tomb to give the dwarves warning about impending orc attacks. This definitely implies at least that Orcrist had an orc radar range of several miles and was more effective than existing lookout positions that would no doubt have been able to see farther than that.
That would definitely make sense. Glamdring is more sensitive than Sting and Glamdring and Orcrist are both at similar level of craftsmanship. Sting is described as a small dagger by elf standards and it certainly doesn't have the pedigree of the others.
It is worth noting that Bilbo's assessment that dim light means "not very near, but not far enough" could just be that he saw Glamdring glowing brightly before, and is thus concluding that a dim glow says they're in the area, but not in the room with him. It's not an unreasonable assumption to make.
I take the two parts of the sentence to be interpreted separately: Not very near: it's not shining so brightly as when they're very close Not far enough: it's still glowing at all, Bilbo would rather the sword was completely normal-looking at that point. As in, the second part is less about measurement, and more about Bilbo's fears and woes.
@@Radditz770I agree. His response is more likely Bilbo-specific than exact situation specific. I think his preferred location of orc is nowhere and his preferred amount of orc is zero.
@@Radditz770 yeah, that's more or less what I was going for. For Bilbo, a hobbit of no significant martial skill, he'd probably rather the goblins/orcs be as far away as conceivably possible, and Sting's faint glow indicates that's very much not the case.
In The Hobbit, it says that The Lonely Mountain couldn’t be taken by surprise because Orcrist glowed whenever enemies approached. Surely the distance from Thorin’s tomb to outside of the lonely mountain is longer than a mile, but as mentioned, Glamdring (and by extension Orcrist) seem to be more sensitive than Sting.
Possibly Orcrist being set in one place for an extended period was more attuned to the local signal enivronment and could detect Orcs at longer range as a result.
There's a small complication here. The sword probably glows brighter the more Orcs there are as well, so it's going to be a function of distance and number. Incidentally, my friend played an Orc in a D&D campaign who found a sword that glowed when it works were nearby. He picked it up and used it as his main weapon, and he named it "The Sword that Never Stops Glowing." It did radiant damage.
I was going to say much the same thing. A single orc 200 yards away is one level of brightness. But a hundred orcs who are 200 yards from Sting would be something else altogether.
That's actually a really cool scenario. Repurposing Elvish steel to essentially be a free light source as long as it's wielded by an Orc is one of those interesting synergies that comes from deep and imaginative lore.
On your first point, I think it's far more in character for Bilbo to not know that a dimer glow means there are Goblins "Close but not too close" but rather he's being whisful. He's saying "There are goblins nearby, and I wish there were not."
I would say there are 2 more things to consider: 1) How many orcs: i could imagine, the swords might pick up a whole group from a mile away, while a single orc might only be noticed from a few hundred meters away. 2) What about obstacles: whatever it is that the blade reacts to, may it be an aura of orcish malice or anything, chances are, it would be dimmer if there are either obstacles in the way. So, it could be that it shines dimly with orcs a mile away when in open ground at amon hen, but in Bilbo's case in Moria it might be much less distance for the same brightness, similar to 1). If we try to take a scientific look at the topic, no matter what we compare it to - gravity, electromagnetic/acoustic waves, thermodynamics, hydrodynamics and so on, it would make sense that the propagation is dependant on how many/strong sources there are, and how the path looks like (dampening, reflections, etc.). There are so many factors that would make it physically immersive - and yes, i know, that would me more of an hard magic system, but it wouldnt surprise it if Tolkien would have liked to take inspiration in nature for questions like these. What we can definitely say though, is, no matter how effective the swords are, the range/intensity should be chosen reasonably by the craftsmen for the purpose. I would neither want a sword glowing like the sun when orcs are even 10km away, nor would i want one glowing dimly with orcs closer than a hundred meters. I think, if it detects a single orc from 500m, a smaller group from a mile away and a large army from 2-5km away, that would sound just about right to be as practical as it can get. This way, it would start glowing when you should be wary of the situation, and will glow stronger, the larger the danger becomes
I'd say only something that can negatively affect elven magic would count as an obstacle. But I do believe that the blade is brighter when they are more orcs.
Both the sam and aragorn references at 1 mile are singular or at least small numbers of orcs. Aragorn reckons on a spy or two at that distance. Also, if numbers were a factor sting would probably be relatively bright at the tower, due to the number of orcs generally in Mordor.
I think it's the other way round. *If* you are that good in your world-building, you risk attracting such a crowd (in addition to the usual bunch of serious academics who study world-class literature in depth anyway). If, on the other hand, your world-building is sloppier, that simply won't happen, no matter whether the lower-quality books you churn out suffice to pay your bills - or aren't good enough even for that. 🙂
It may be worth mentioning that - as the author of the video said himself - orcs were blinded by this light. I believe that the main function of this light was not to warn the user of the presence of orcs but to blind those orcs when in battle. It just started shining earlier, so you could use it as a "radar", but it was a secondary function. Primarily, it was a weapon.
@@SPIKESPIEGEL1969 yes, it's also a kind of side effect - a necessary evil. But orcs suffer not just of light but sustain "magical" damage as they are creatures of darkness.
Just as I’ve always surmised. Upon seeing the title I thought “hold on, didn’t Aragorn and Frodo use Sting to get an approximate distance once? And Aragorn should know pretty well how to read one of those blades”. And as a side note, I always thought that the intensity of Sting when Sam had it was that’s because it’s how the *Orc* perceived it (similar to how the light from the phial burned Shelob’s eyes), in addition to the visual possibly being influenced by his holding the One Ring, similar to how the Orcs thought he was a huge and powerful warrior when they first saw him.
@@minibro73 Which honestly makes sense. If you are sneaking up on a goblin camp, you don't want to telegraph your position, _but_ blinding your light-sensitive enemies is a great bonus!
My personal headcanon was that Idril commissioned Sting for the then 7 year old Earendil, as the kings grandson his sword would have been made in the kings smithy. Probably was never delivered since her tunnel wasn't fully finished when the attack came and was still in the tower of the king, so if Glamdring was found with Sting in the troll cave, it was likely that they where picked up together.
My headcannon is that Sting always had it's equal partner long dagger, for whatever elf had Sting commissioned to have a partner for it to it to dual wield, and they were more powerful together. Maybe it was simply stuck in a corpse in the lands swallowed up by the ocean when the Valar got pissy about exploits in their rules.
Today, both you and GirlNext Gondor are covering LotR topics I've never heard anyone cover before. 😃 It's nice - I'm always happy to hear the eagles debate or about Galadriel's gifts but these are refreshing in thier novelty.
I find it a bit of an issue that at ~1km, Aragorn is merely "wary," with no urgency to waking the fellowship and taking off early. That's just a few minutes' walk. Maybe you're not assuming they're walking straight towards the fellowship, that they're perhaps carefully searching... But that IS an assumption I would make, were I responsible for the safety of my companions. Especially considering the possibility that they may be running, as we saw in the movies. That's just a couple minutes away, and waking up can take time.
It is not too big deal - if shines = orc(s) are nearby, but cannot see them or hear them yet and they are not near enough. It can easily be a stray orc or two hunting for food and sniffinc on the other side of the river. Having the sword out would easily serve as a sonar, an "orcdar" as named - once it would start glowing more intensely, it would absolutely mean raising silent alarm, readying for defense and preparing quick withdrawal into nearby ships. And remember, Aragorn can hear really well, Legolas has godlike senses as well and they have a place and means to provide fighting retreat if necessary. No need to wake up rest of the group if orcdar doesn´t show any progress in terms of it´s light growing.
You've got to remember that this isn't nice roads with clear obvious areas that people would stop at. They're searching while also moving through uncleared hilly forestry at night time, it's going to slow them down immensely. That said, the distance is still far too close for my liking for an unknown number of enemies from an unknown direction. I guess you could argue that Aragorn trusts himself and Legolas to sense them before they're dangerously close and/or he has some knowledge/skill that lets him judge their distance and direction to some extent. BUT personally I think it works better if the range is 4-5 greater than the conclusion in the video. E.g. if Aragorn can tell from the brightness that they're at least 2km away (or greater) then his reaction seems more reasonable to me because it significantly reduces the odds of them stumbling upon them, which is a genuine risk at the distance speculated in the video.
1km is roughly 10 minutes march on clear flat ground by current standards. If they were going faster they would make noise, and that is very easy to detect at night. If the orcs were searching carefully it could be 20-30 mins away for their nearest forces. Its fairly safe to assume that they would keep Sting unsheathed and check on it every minute or so to monitor how bright it was getting. If it got too much brighter they would wake Legolas and have him go scouting, much brighter than that they would wake everyone and abandon camp. 5 minutes out is about as close as you would want enemy forces to be before reacting to them.
Saruman was the white because he was the chief of Wizards and supposed to lead the charge of good. Gandalf is the gray as he is a wanderer with no home who comes and goes as he pleases, as if in the gray mist. He becomes the white when he replaces Saruman after returning with greater power. Radagast is the brown because he was of Yavanna and tied to the beasts and birds in the woods. The blue wizards are blue because they vanished over the horizon under the blue sky.
Robert, this is possibly your best video, or at least your most nerdy which is basically synonymous with "best." The level of detail and respect for source material is exemplary of your channel and of the very best content on the platform!
I rather think that Shagrat’s response to the light is because it is intrinsically painful to orc eyes, not that it is overwhelmingly bright. Else the swordplay in the misty mountains in the hobbit would have been SUPER BRIGHT. [EDIT for spelling.]
I don't care if this is a rabbit hole or "too geeky". I wouldn't be watching every single video you post if I wasn't enraptured by the amount of detail you put into everything!
A weapon that glows seems like a bit of a liability when fighting an enemy that shuns daylight. It alerts you to the presence of orcs but doesn't tell you where they are on the other hand the orc could see the glow from a distance giving away your position.
Nah man, that was the perfect amount of nerdy and niche. I’m all here for technical stuff and you literally answered a question I have had for years. thanks!!!
I love this video! I love that IDG would even think to cover this. This is exactly the kind of deep background lore analysis that made me fall in love with this channel! Keep it coming Robert! 👌🏾
@@Rick_King Just made a fresh batch of ginger cookies yesterday, from my granny's recipe. They're over there in her antique cookie jar, the one that looks like a homicidal teddy bear. Wash your hands before you take one!
@@theeffete3396 Read them multiple times but some details just get lost in the action. I tend to look at the “big picture” . (Read LOTR, Hobbit, Silmarillion plus others- so not a novice. ) As Robert said in the intro, he “needed out & went down a rabbit hole on this one”!!!
I will never tire of these videos, having now watched every video you have on LOTR I have resorted to going at them again from the beginning. For one, I find your voice extremely calming, your scripts are great and then the content is always interesting! I would never have thought to think about the glow of Sting but I'm 1000% here for it.
Oieee Santos !! Sou um gringo estado-unidense quem eh sempre tentando melhorar minha abilidade no idioma português. Could you recommend any good podcasts that are in português ? LoTR -related would be great, because knowing the topic helps get me past gaps in my vocabulary. (Adoro seu país !! 🙌🇧🇷)
I think the issue of what is supposed to be a weapon glowing bright blue when near the enemy is a significant problem from a tactical and stealth standpoint.
It has a sheath. Shouldn't be a problem if you want to stay hidden. However, knowing the enemy is near when you weren't already aware would be a huge tactical advantage.
The Orc-glowing blades were forged by the Noldor, High Elves who were on average much more powerful than Orcs and probably wouldn't usually be hiding from them. The glow struck fear into their enemies when they saw it, so it was a psychological weapon as well.
Thanks for doing what you do InDeepGeek (Robert). My entire interest in the LOTR Tolkien lore is because of YOU. Your vids got me interested, and now I have all the books by Tolkien (the Silmarlion and now even the Histories of Middle Earth) plus I'm making a special LOTRs shelf to put all the books on. I work at a lumberyard in America, and am basically skilled at carpentry, enough to make a shelf anyways. I'm painting a 1/4 luan (thin plywood) backside of Mordor with the tower of Bara'dur and Mt. Doom for the backside of the shelf.
Love the video, especially when you dive into the really niche aspects that aren’t normally talked about. Discovered your channel a few months ago and have been listening to the LOTR playlist on shuffle everyday on my drive to work, and really perks up my day. Keep up the good work my dude
I agree with the 1 mile total range, but I personally interpreted the text/scenes to mean that Sting measures the magnitude of the Orc threat. For example, Sting might be faint if there is a single, injured Orc nearby, but not in any position to be a threat. Or, Sting might show faintly if there is a mass orc army marching several miles away. Its interesting to note that Tolkien mentions that Hobbits have a natural way of remaining unseen (boosted by the ring), so orcs, even nearby or in number, won't measure as significant a threat to Sting in the hands of a hobbit in sneak mode.
It is amazing how you tied all these references together to draw a conclusion. Even more amazing, the references didn't contradict each other which means Tolkien had thought this through as well.
I don't usually leave comments, but I love your videos. My mother read The Hobbit and the trilogy to us as kids a chapter a night at bedtime. So basically I grew up with these characters. While I am familiar with the Hobbit and the Trilogy, I have never read the other works or appendices. I actually found reading Tolkien a little bit difficult because of his use of language being..... not old English, but I had to stop and think while reading it to understand what was being conveyed. This was when I was a little older than the young girl I was when my mom read the stories to us. The strength of the story and the obvious narrative kept me engaged even though I didn't understand half of what was being read to me by my mother. I don't even feel badly about not having read all of that extra material because I found your videos. You've taken care of all of that for me. Thank you.
I don't wish to impact your sleep, but did you consider that perhaps the brightness varies with concentration of orcs as well as distance? With that factored in, we should consider the inverse square law as often used for radio wave and light intensity over distance
I always wondered why Sting and the other swords didn’t have a cut out in the scabbards to allow you to see the glow without drawing it.. or make the pommel glow too, something to catch your eye and actually notify you. If Aragorn didn’t ask Frodo to draw Sting, he wouldn’t have and wouldn’t know… I’d much rather have the pommel glow too or something and accept the risk of the glow being seen because I can easily tuck it into my cloak or something.
I love that there are people like me who consider such questions and try to make an estimate. Aragorn’s statement was my chief evidence for evaluation as well, but I forgot how bright those swords got when at fighting range. At those close distances the light itself would have been an aid in killing the orcs, no wonder they had such a reputation among both orc and men.
Starting with the premise that well crafted systems provide information that’s useful to the user, I would think that sensitivity/range would depend in part on the wielder’s interest in the proximity of orcs. It might be more sensitive for someone terrified of orcs than for someone for whom an orc is a nuisance. Excellent video as always, I appreciate you creating this content.
I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for the first time many years ago before I really had very much comprehension. I seem to remember thinking Sting's "radar" was based on how much the goblin's presence actually threatened the wielder. Read it many times since and never really thought about this part, before. Thank you for the additional thoughts. Maybe it is time to read it again.
I would say that because Sting was not shining as bright as Glamdring, Bilbo would assume the orcs were not very near and because it was shining at all, they were still too close for his comfort. Not shining at all would be his preference. I would say he was guessing but his guesses were pretty good.
last part to consider is that as you had mentioned sting seems to glow less then Gandalf's blade which would be the one Aragorn would be most accustomed to. so there is a case to be made that Aragorn was useing that blades distance when estimating the measure at the river so it might be shorter then a what you came to.
Sting is the blade of a scout. Something for fighting in tight quarters. Bright when faced with a foe, and yet dim when at a ways. I imagine the elven warrior using the growing light to find the nearest greenskin.
This sounds so much like a pen and paper magical item. I imagine the fellowship launching a catapult at "glowing dimly" range to see if Sting flickers on hit :D
sting and the other elven blades are pretty much "THE" inspiration for adding enchanted effects onto weapons in games like MMOs and ARPGs, "not only because it looks cool" but because it makes the blade more powerful
I think that the "not far enough" and "too near" are more emotional statements. That Sting detects orcs at all means that they're too close for comfort. Also I think that the detection also acts as a bit of danger-sense, that the more likely that one is to encounter orcs causes it to glow brighter. For such a small blade Sting, and by extension its wielder, is less likely to be confronting orcs than a King's blade, like Glamdring or Orcrist would.
I agree with the conclusion, but some of the shagrat evidence is sketchy. Sam had the ring and there’s reason to believe that the “elvish” light from Sting was somehow frightening or dazzling to shagrat aside from its level of brightness, especially given its comparison to “twinkling stars”. The fact that sting stung his eyes can’t be assumed to be entirely due to its brightness.
A mile seems appropriate, mainly because it is a convenient and easily related distance. The artworks show Sting as a rather larger blade than I have always thought it to be.
Your range estimate sounds about like what my head-canon is, but I also always figured it depended largely on the number of orcs. One orc, maybe across the street, a handfull, quarter mile maybe, a whole troop, a mile.
