It wouldn't hold up very well when splitting through all that wood, however, I have recently seen some pretty crazy wear resistance testing on specific a DLC coating done by Razor Edge Knives over at BladeForums. He seems to have that process down. Looks beautiful on an mirror polish just like hot blueing does.
@@lsubslimed I am not familiar with the product, but you are likely correct about standard bluing. It holds up pretty well, but nothing can hold up to splitting dirty wood... any amount of fine quartz based sand or dust, and.... well, quartz is pretty hard compared to steel of any kind. The only true cure for rust on tools in contact with abrasives is stainless steel, even with its other issues.
I'd be interested to see what nitriding does. I make saw blades for a living and nitride is a fantastic treatment for steel. It makes it harder and corrosion resistant, yet unlike gun blue or coatings it is not just a surface treatment; it will penetrate into the metal itself and even when the nitride appears to have worn off the steel will still have the benefits of the nitride treatment.
I'd be interested seeing how the tool steels like O-1, A-2, and L-6 preform. I understand L6 is considered to be really good survival knife steel. I've never used it to know.
The survival knives I have are made from 1095 steel and they work fine for me and have not broken yet. I have other knives with weaker steel and they are just fine, but they have not been tested to see if they would break. They do not have a full tang though and is just plain hunting knives and not advertised as survival knives.
From Europe I appreciated a lot the weight conversions in grams on the previous video, I missed it a bit on this one, but still I really like your videos, keep it up!
Wibble bobble. That’s it you are my hero knife maker beater upper with words like wibble bobble. I’m super impressed and as always very entertained!!!!
I was just talking about Lynn Thompson and how even if he knows what he's talking about.... The way he presents his knowledge comes off as a cheap used car salesman. I don't believe or trust a word he says. You sound like you know exactly what your talking about. I trust these videos. Great stuff.
Loosening of the bolts caused a twisting side leverage force between the handle and the angle iron which would be far greater than the impact force of the blade strike. If you'd worked out a better gripping system (between plates) I think you'd still be hitting the S7 even now.
Hey Alex, I think for future testing, rather than using wing nuts to secure the knife to the angle-iron, I would use a nylon-lock nut, or something that has more locking/clamping strength. The wing nuts are showing that they come loose during your testing, and the shock and offset forces at the two spots may be contributing to the breakage more than you realize. I realize this is by no means a scientific experiment, but given that Im sure you have these sorts of materials at your disposal (or easily obtained) you may want to consider it. Just for clarification, was it the 1084 or the S7 that you said was VERY prone to rusting? Thanks for yet another awesome vid! Love the info and edumacation!
I know this is a few years late but here is my $0.02 A tough steel ... 8670 is one of the toughest steels on the market. I think the heat treatment known as the goldilocks treatment is 1500f soak for 10 minutes, quench in parks 50, and two temper cycles at 400f for 2 hours. The HRC is around 60 and it has a toughness around 17 ft-lb. Depending on where you look, you can get 8670 at around 0.100 inches to 0.200 inches. 8670 is a low alloy, nickel alloy steel (Nickel in steel is known to make tough steels, but they are difficult to anneal), so it will rust.
I’m a simple man. I see Outdoors55, I thumbs up. Great video as usual! You’re awesome and because of you I bought an angle grinder and made my first knife last weekend!
Outstanding!!!! I have been searching for exactly the same type of product. I have been carrying the Mora myself but share the same concerns with the handle. I would love to see you do this in an S30V or S35VN (my favorite steels). Not sure how they would baton though. Even so I would pay for an orange G10 version with 1084. You may have hit a market niche here.
I may venture into stainless at some point but i dont have the capability for cryogenic treating right now. Yeah it seems some totally get where this project is coming from, and some definitely dont😂 Thanks for watching my friend 👍👊
S7 is tough. However in a knife, I can't think of any steel that will break batoning. roll the edge maybe, but to break a piece of hardened steel (any hardened steel) by striking across it's height, you'd have to exert more force then you can likely apply with your hands. As for the testing, it showed that a knife made from S7 will break after a single hit with the hard wood, while the 1080 took 2. As long as none of the other hits created a crack in the s7, it would be as strong as if it had never been hit.
Can you recommend an ultra-premium steel for Arizona law enforcement knives? Due to our low humidity, we do not need corrosion resistance, but toughness and edge retention (wear resistance). Our cops use their knives for everything! - screwdrivers, cutting through fences, slicing seat belts from burn victims, et al. We do not need a recommendation on a specific brand of knives - we will find a manufacturer once we learn which steel is ideal for Arizona LEOs. Can you make a recommendation?
The blade on the S7 steel did bend. You can see it at 7:36. Edit: I see you addressed this at the end of the video, now that I've watched that far. Good job.
Lol it wasnt from this😂 I pulled something trying to pull a tree stump out of the ground. Yeah I thought for sure it would have broken. Thanks for watching my friend 👍👊
this is a good series , looky here , not seeing many experts on here atall, but you do pretty good, now, as far as weight, i think the knife is the last thing you should worry about period, a shovel, a axe, a pot and pan, hatchet, machete, these things ,sure, but the knife is probably the single most important thing you dont want to mess with, personally seeing those tests, you can make one without hollowin out the handles metal and itll make it solid to where theres no breakage, you can send me that knife, ill buy it all day long from you, you put those 2 blades to the test that noone else does, in fact id prolly buy it if you kept the metal tang completly solid and id buy it over any other knife hands down of course the only thing should be done is 2 screw holes to add the handle wether it be plactic, wood, or bone even, now make one with the sharp tooth design, and size, its not meant to be a rambo knife, and yer not skinnin a elephant, heh.hope to see ya make one , thanks, great vid.
I only have one S7 blade, and it's a big chopper, but I've found it to be incredibly tough and has never had any signs of chipping or rolling. It holds an edge well, and is not difficult to strop/hone/sharpen. 3v is certainly more corrosion resistant, holds an edge better, but takes longer to bring the edge back using the same abrasives as used on the S7. I don't have a 3v blade comparable to the S7 as far as dimensions, but I think it's a more balanced steel as far as the knife trinity of abrasion resistance, strength, and toughness. I think it will come down to personal preference as to which qualities are more desirable, and how each quality is weighted in its importance by the individual. Either way, on a knife that size, it will be a great knife.
The handle on the Mora will seek freedom from the stick tang on the blade after 3-4 hits from the battoning beater. Injected molded plastic can't take it like riveted micarta or G-10. Maybe not a "scientific " test ran on the two steels, but compelling results for the forces applied. Gratis stuff man!👍
I do the same type of batoning with my Gerber Strongarm and, it just laughs straight in my face asking, "Is that all you have?" Gawd what an amazing blade. Heat treated extremely well. Holds an edge great for 420. Easy to resharpen. Great design and lightweight. I tried batoning it using a hammer once, besides some knicks and scratches, kept asking for more. I would truly bet my life on it.
Holds an edge great? That's the softest steel I ever had on any kind of knife. It's softer than Victorinox knives. I never had any blade roll that easy in my life, not to mention the hours you have to put on, to reprofile that awful edge it comes with(and that's if you have the skills and experience). Realy good design overall, just destroed by the really poor materials it's built with. A bit overated knife. Terava Jaakari Puuko, costs less and comes with real steel and great heat treatent. That's how Strongarm should be built
I don’t know about the mora basic, I have the companion in SS and a pro S, both Sandvik 12c27 I think. For the price, like you said who cares but they’re pretty tough. I’m eager to see you test 3V, hopefully you’ll get cpm 3V. I have 3 Bark River Knives in it & they’re great.
I don't think the Mora Basic would stand up to this kind of abuse, but I don't think the finished version of an S7 or 1084 steel knife in the same profile as a Mora Basic would sell for $8 either. I think if you test it, you'll find that the Mora Basic can be used reliably for batoning, as long as the user is reasonable cautious and judicious about it. The basic is also a 3/4 tang knife if I recall correctly.
I like S7, 8670, 5160, A8mod, Z-tough and TSP1 steels a lot. I think if you make it true full tang plus tapered tang for balance, it might not break. It broke due the the stress riser of the large hole.
good stuff! Since you're hollowing out the "integral" tang to reduce weight, perhaps you can gain another few grammes by making it a hidden tang? Not sure which shape you'd have to pick to best withstand batonning, but that's maybe also a very interesting test series... I'd really would like to know how thin a tang can be - with a proper handle - without significantly compromising the integrity of the blade. And I'd be even more interested in finding out if different shapes of hidden tang make a difference in performance. I've seen hidden tangs straight, curved, centered, aligned with the spine... but perhaps there are other shapes and positions that have better performance for specific use?
I don't believe a hidden tang would be strong enough given this knife size and weight. It would also make the handle material a structural element. For breaking strength everything matters. Including the shape and finish left on the steel surface. Its a rather complex subject once you start digging 😂
@@OUTDOORS55 and yes, the handle would have a structural importance, but I don't think it's that much when the knife is held by your hand. You're batonning the blade, and the handle mostly positions. Your hand will not be as rigid as your contraption, so the handle itself will only receive a very limited shock. The handly only needs to be strong enough to withstand shocks that your hand can handle, otherwise you're smashing your hand anyway, and what good is a stronger knife handle in a shattered hand?
I've been workin' this notion through my head for a while now...WHAT IF.... What if one was to, in lue of tempering in a dry oven, do that 400 degree (plus or minus) quench in hot oil? Would this not "bake" some amount of oil into the grain to help protect it from rusting? Would this not make a blade slightly slicker for it's cutting action? I totally agree that if these blades were equipped with real handles, they would not have broken as they had because your hand would have been absorbing a great deal of the shock generated by the baton blows. Rhino 54 had noted that the mounting bolts to the angle iron were not tight enough to mitigate equipment movement, which may have led to the handle material failure. In the end, it is quite obvious that 1084 and S7 are both very capable steels for making great outdoor knives. Outdoors55...keep doing what you are doing. Should the Zombie Apocalypse ever befall us, you will be one of those very few to have a very sale-able skill and product and, therefore, assure your own survival.
To Outdoors55...I just wanted to add that I really appreciate all the effort you put into both your work and your video production. You are an inspiration to those of us that have little to zero workshop space, given what you are obviously capable of accomplishing.
Gough Custom did a durability test on a bunch of knife steel a few years ago. he came up with CPM3v as the winner... Search for the video, it's pretty sweet... From what I understand S7 & CPM3v are around the toughest, but CPM3v has better corrosion resistance(which some say S7 is horrible at)... Sweet video, take it easy...
I completely understand why you are doing this. I hike in CO. BUT, I would just take on an extra ounce and a half and get a Bark River Knives Kephart 3V and be on my way.
Ive seen most of the toughness testing videos on youtube. Most are concerned with edge toughness or behind the edge toughness, Which allows for very thin grinds. Im more concerned with the entire knife structure, and its ability to hold a knife like shape, so i can make the knife as light as possible.
I'm missing bevels - a 2mm grove 3mm down from the spine. also reemake the handle to be a back slope kind - fill out the area Mora style.. with plastic to get rid of the lower metal part of the handle. should save you quite some Gs.
Alex test please Hultafors OK-4 and OK-1 Heavy duty, they made of Japanese SK-5 and should be much tougher than Moras that you broke with simple battoning. Thanks:)
(1) Will 1084 or S7 sharpen more easily in the field? (2) Will both stay working sharp for 3-4 weeks out in the field? (3) Is 1084 significantly cheaper than S7? We already know 1084 is less rust prone than S7, and it can withstand pretty much anything short of Blade Breaker 9000.
Hey, do you remember what your thickness bevore the edge was? Ive been doing some testing on 80CrV2 and my testblades took a warp in the edge portion even up to 0,6mm "thickness bevor the edge" while rough batoning through a quite twisted knot. Now im wondering if my HT is faulty. Blades are at 61-62 HRC tough...
If you have fine grain and 61-62 HRC heat treatment should not be the issue. Maybe too thin for the task. Have you seen Larrin last article. 15N20 on 61HRC with 66% higher toughness than 80CrV2 on same hardness. Quite impressive, Its worth checking out.
@@thiago.assumpcao Yeah, might have been too thin. Was a hollow grind too. Yes, definetly have seen that. Truely amazing. Might still take a warp in the same application though, since plastic deformations are mainly determined by yield strength (which correlates mostly with hardness) But still, if the toughness reall is that amazing it might be quite the upgrade :D
That's an interesting demonstration of toughness. As others have pointed out, it would be good to test with a full tang. Anyway, not showing my gf this video, she'll expect the knife I make her to be this tough!
Might be easier and take less time to test if you tried to cut a nail by batoning. You could then count the number of times the nail was cut before blade showed dullness.
7:54... it actually broke because of the loose screws securing the blade to the piece of angle iron. If those were tightened enough, it would probably have hold on even longer.
After watching again I would recommend a hard hat, face shield and an athletic cup or a steel athletic cup. You might have to make that yourself. This video made my day. I feel like I can turn my phone off for the night and I’ve gotten my video fix for the day!!!
Hey Alex, awesome video!!! I almost think if the whole handle could somehow be supported, as opposed to just where the screws were holding it to the angle iron, you would still be out there pounding on it.....well, maybe you'd have given up by now. Lol. I think the reason the handles broke is because the screws created pressure points. Anyway, seriously TOUGH steel. Cheers
So of the S7 and 1084 Alex, which one did you think was better? Im concerned about the rust on the S7. I think watching creates more pockets for rust to grow in, so I think at match isn't that great, unless the etch is to help hold a DLC type coating.
Its hard to say. I believe if i made the blade thinner (behind the edge, as well as spine thickness) id rather have the s7. Im not sure id want to go much thinner with the 1084 due to the flex. The flex could be changed with heat treating but it would reduce toughness as well.
Interesting video! I think if anything it shows your blade design and heat treat are “bang” on (wink, wink). You should call it handle or tang breaking because the only “weakness” was the design of the tang with that center oval cut out. I imagine if you left more meat on the tang you’d have to drop an anvil on it. 😀
Ahh ok cool. I was looking at one, but I was under the impression that you needed some sort of tank with a pump to run it. Much easier your way. Interesting study on sharpening your knives with a belt grinder if you are interested. It’s the reason I am was looking for a kool mist. knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/08/does-sharpening-with-a-grinder-ruin-your-edge/
