What It Takes To Operate A Swiss Lathe 

I work on a citizen machine and our management refuses to buy ground bar. That means laying out drawn bars and measuring them every 12" or so along and never being able to tighten up the guidebush as required. Then he gets angry at the machine manufacturer because I constantly struggle with concentricity. I thought I was missing something or doing something wrong. This video just reinforces that If you dont use the correct material, tools and programming techniques. You are never going to produce those perfect parts.

Makes me happy to see the machines I work on being represented. Currently running a citizen m32 which Is an absolute beast of a machine. Swiss lathes are amazing machines

So awesome following you and your team , you’ve come so far from those garage days .

I just realy like your authentic talks about everything including financing thanks for bying the great creator that you are. You are inspiring.

if you ever get those "I love lathes" t-shirt made, I need one too! my first real machine was a cnc lathe and I always find myself. hovering back to lathe work.

I found this a really interesting insight into this aspect of machining, didn’t really know anything about the Swiss sliding head machines.

Awesome deep dive into the machine, would so love to see a video like this on the new one, thanks for your vids

Loving every upload, wish you could do more than 1 per month. When you were vlogging back in 2020, it was awesome with a new video every week or every other day! 😉

This is the content I love you for.

The shop I work at is getting its first cnc lathe next week, a mazak, I’m not sure exactly what model but we’re excited. We already have work orders coming in for it.

This is an excellent and educational video, thank you!

Hi John. I’ve only just discovered your RU-vid videos, the first one I watched was your visit to Tornos in Moutier. I’ve worked with Tornos sliding head lathes for over 30 years. Anyway I have actually binge watched your RU-vid videos over the Christmas holidays and I just thought I’d comment on your experience with the Tornos Swiss. I still use Tornos machines (the company I work for have just bought 6 Nano’s) but I mainly work on Star and Citizen CNCs nowadays. Anyway here’s my comment, the cut off (parting off) tool is just that, a cut off tool, so I never add or subtract anything to the Z axis in the offsets, I keep it at zero. That’s how I’ve always been taught (whether it was by Tornos, Star or Citizen). Instead I use the first turning tool as my reference (datum point) and face off the front off the front of the component as my first operation on every job. The other comment I will make is that after watching your video of your setup for the component for your Saga pen, when it comes to using the cross power tools, I would recommend using a variable in your program for the Z axis. Then if the position is out you only need to change the variable and it will apply to every tool, rather than changing the Z axis position for every tool. For example, in the program, for each cross power tool you could put Z#120, and before the first cross power operation you put #120=-8.0 (sorry, I work in metric) then if you need to make an adjustment you only need to change the value of #120 and it would apply to all of the tools. I know your experience of Swiss type automatic lathes is fairly recent, and maybe you’ve learnt these things since the videos I’ve watched, I just thought this would help. Love the new building, and the Kern is fascinating to watch. All the best for the future.

Nice looking shop, great machines, good insights into costs involved too, not many people realize how much $$ is involved. Let us know when you get the "I ❤ Lathes" shirts made!

Yes you're absolutely right there is a lot of round parts not only in the machine shop but in the all world .I'm a mazak cnc lathe and actually I'm working on a mazak integrex I 200 with the smooth control.thanks for your videos

Good to see you're progressing John. With our trumpets, we make over 2000 different lathe parts ;)

Really interesting seeing folks making commodity parts for the first time. Bar prep's a pain haha I feel ya

Useful overview/ intro, thanks👍👍

Excellent info thankyou

Beau travail Pierre - Cette huile vous met vraiment dans le jus

I love the lathe operator. "Yea we just make parts and junk them to warm it up". Owner "you dont do a spindle warm up you just make parts?" Operator "yup, fuck your costs, ha ha ha"

John thanks for your videos, and by the way your English is owesome very clear and vary understandable 👍

Nice machines. I worked as a mechanic at an aerospace fastener firm. We had Davenport multi spindle automatics and EuroTurn Multi spindle autos with CNC controlled cross slide as well as all the cams giving the other cross slides and tool spindle motions. Those Euro turn can cost above $1 million apiece. Great high volume machines. Set up operators make good money. They had some Swiss style gang tooling on a slide machines.

In 1984 I started in cnc on a Nakamura TMC 4 it was 3 months old. It's still making accurate parts to this day.

I am a nak runner forever. Love Fanuc. I'm a true lathe guy. More of an art. Ran 5x. Run live milling. I start training on a Citizen-Cincom on Tuesday. I am 46. Been machining for 28.

Nice video! Could you comment on the small computers you have? What do you run there?

I love work I COULD WATCH IT being done all day:-))))))))

Love Swiss lathe. Amazing 🎉

Great video 👍 What about a star sliding head or speedo.

John have you thought about looking at the triple turret naks?

Lovely!!!

I've witnessed 2 oil fires in Swiss lathes. The fire suppression system is a must have in my opinion. That same machine has been on fire like 5 times over the years and its still in operation b/c the suppression system saves it.

Swiss lathes can run a lot longer than 48 hours without interruptions. With the right setup and program. We've run parts for weeks without stopping (other than for changing inserts after every 3 or 4 days). We have a lot of large quantity orders. So every job we set up runs for at least 3 days continuously.

Thanks for the tour of the machine now that you have had it awhile.

I run an AS-200 twin spindle, an she is a champ! Dream machine. I also run an NLX, which is nice, but huge. Swiss machining is another area I would love to learn.

There used to be a saying, “all turners are failed millers”. On early CNC lathes you only had 2 axis. With the advent of driven tooling, additional spindles and axis, Swiss type sliding head lathes can accommodate 40 tools. As a guy from Citizen Machinery told me once, millers tend be used to more axis and take to Swiss type lathes better than those only used to turning with 2. Once you get your head around these multi axis machines they can be really good and productive.

I can tell Pierre is french and his mind still thinks in french but speaks english on the fly, a very exhausting task btw

Lathe porn, I love lathes too! Awesome video man, and congratulations on the growth. I member watching videos when all you had was the Tormach, what a difference with the machines you have now.

My first machine was a hass 5 axis thing was a old cu## but when it ran dam they were nice parts

man, I think I need a swiss lathe.... they are just too cool

Can you make adapters for the gripper, for each different bar size?

The Tsugami swiss that I run use IMECA or Minuateman barfeeders.

The important thing is to not let yourself be intimidated by these more complex machines. Just keep in mind that no matter what machine you're working on you are still only doing 1 of 2 things. You are either holding the stock stationary while you spin a cutting tool to remove material from it OR you are holding the cutting tool stationary while you spin the stock to remove material from it. People have been doing that for a very long time. There are obviously a few exceptions to this rule, like broaching, but I think I've made my point.

Curious about the critical diameters and delrin. Does it come consistent enough diameter that no prepping needs done?

do you purchase material as centerless ground from a metal supplier, or do you need to send it to a shop after purchasing from a supplier? i wanted perfct OD brass for a job but my metal suppliers just blinked slowly. not much for swiss work in our area tho (hello form Alberta!) would save me buying oversize stock and turning!

Hi, i was wondering how do you set drills to center on the sub spindle on Y-axis? Thanks for response.

Get an adaptive guide bush then you don't need to buy ground bar. JBS is one make. Or most sliding head machines have options to run guide bushless now too.

would you save costs if you buy bolts than producing your own? Surely someone mass produces a bolt that is close or exactly the same to your custom bolt

@28:50 uhm yeh you can run a swiss without a bar feeder. reduce bar length and put it in by hand. works too. I do that all the time for demo swiss machines

I like cnc lathes too

I still remember the time when you milled screw studs on your Tormach

Have you ever seen a Eurotech? Twin spindle/twin turret lathe like the Nak, but allows simultaneous machining, and superimposed machining. They claim to be faster than Swiss

good video

Will you buy your old Tormachs back une day?

15:00 that's why you always run a warm up program. Especially after the weekend. I guess when your parts are so small they cost next to nothing to scrap it's ok. But once you become a ISO certified company every part needs to be documented. So those first 1-5, or first 50 parts your throwing away waiting for the machine to warm up has to documented. Which doesn't look good even if it's easy to explain.

Bro Mazak just announced they will be making a granite base swiss with a 2inch diameter max. Plus it will be a traditional smooth control which is either G&M code or mazatrol conversional. They also partnered with mastercam so you can get special mastercam features on the control and special mazak features on Mastercam

That clip I would think a stamped part.

Be cautious with the Swiss machine's air scrubber. A fire in the oily exhaust pipe is possible. We know that from experience. Pierre seems to be extremely knowledgeable about the Tornos. They're great machines.

Lathes are also a lot more challenging to set up and operate than mill. It seems another of people look at lathe guys as the guys that couldn't make it on the mills, but they're actually so much more involved.

Sub'd - It's amazing how much you have and how it's ALL for "just" (no offense intended)... A knife & pen, it's inspiring.

I spent my life on screw machines, for a long time considered lathes that made parts faster than lathes. You love lathes? Me too. The sad thing is, as I age out of the busness, I am seeing machining being gradually replaced by 3D printing. Now mainly plastics, but I expect them to take over metal working some day.

put me down for that t-shirt!!

Currently work on a Citizen L20. Been on it for two years and wouldn't trade it for anything.

Why you don't make a convex shape mounting tool with hole patterns for the balls. Then it will be super easy to push the plastic piece. Just my mind wander 😉

Tee shirt idea. A lathe turned my life around.

How many per bar depends on length of bar. A.O.L. off part plus the thickness of part of tool. If part off tool is .125 Over all length of part is .375 And bar length is 4 feet. You'll get about 93 part per bar

What are you using to program the Swiss? Hand written, MasterCam or Fusion?

Get a 20 MM machine it should cover a wide range of your part for your knives and pens. I have to assume your bar loader pusher will only take a bar loader collet smaller then 13 MM but the channels will take 13 MM. The word is it is better to go larger diameter on bar loader then the lathe. The greatest advantage of Swiss Lathes is not only the high precision parts you can make but also cycle time reduction by the use of simultaneous machining process. At my place of work we can make parts within 30 microinches in roundness and as low as 5 microinch finish.

Maybe I missed something but how does the subspindle on the Tornos grab such a thin part? Wouldn't it just squeeze out of the collet since it has almost no cross section?

cool story bro

Loving a lathe is normal - those who don't are simply unfortunate in not knowing. Shop looks very clean - should be proud. Swiss machines always requires pre-treating the stock. Titanium fires are like magnesium fires very tough to put out - usually special agents are required .

Hey, if you are having so many parts and looking for outsourcing for Swiss type lathe, i can help with you that

You should look at a JBS guide bush it will eliminate the need to grind your bars.

super surprised with the cost if those lathes. I would say a pretty good choice for you would be a mill turn like an integrex or the willerman? you just got.

Anybody notice how fast that blade was?

If you make that shirt made, make sure you send John Saunders one.

try using pig mats the suck up a ton more oil over paper towels.

Great video, something very cathartic about watching these. I only have one question, why does it seem like they are wearing eye makeup?

Sir please guide me programming

Almost every part, I don't know anyone that makes their own ball bearings

14:32 yeah but you cant pull it back anymore its now smaller than guide. basically one op machine profile and cut. why so many tools. well you can pull part back if lenght smaller than guide bushing but its not rigid anymore. allmost same as long part stick out xD

On which machine do you turn down the ends of the bars to fit the gripper? This can't be done by the Swiss itself, right ?

I have an older Citizen Cincom F-16 Swiss. I have it down for full maintenance/cleaning and it's NASTY ! It's been ran with gun-drill oil the entire 30 years of service and I'm getting it ready for the next 30 years. These lathes are amazing what they can do, even @ 30+ years old. The oil mist that hangs in the shop is a big issue with the older ones like mine. It's in a new shop and I need to keep it "cleaner" so a mist extractor and drip tray are in the future, IF I stay with oil.

Love Pierre's thick quebec french accent!

Nice, I could spit those parts out all day;)

You were talking a lot about cost of the machines and I was wondering if you insure any of them and to what extent is insuring CNC machines even possible?

What is the maximum size/dimensions (Length, dia, width, height) a Swiss CNC Machine can handle? Does it come in Vertical type? Can it handle for large parts or only micro, small and medium machines?

I love lamp! I mean lathes.... lol But brick, do you really love them or are you just pointing at things in the room and saying you love them lol

Pierre : women want him, men want to be him.

John is the twin brother of Marcus (Alan Tudyk) (Maze runner: Scorch trial) 😂

See you lather...

John sounds like you should have gone with a different machine, the Tornos is way to crazy hard to setup maybe you should have looked into a myano or something else.

Pierre sound french canadian a lot

Companies think cnc is everything. If you are cutting away more than 100% of your part you should be using a different process. Injection molding, for example. Especially since Delrin is often used for injection molded bearings. You will cut material costs by over 50%, increase speed by 10x, decrease labor to practically zero.

Swiss doesn't aways make money parts but it doe make the parts that make the money

15:35 yeah. if part take 1 minute make and material cost THAT much and you sell PIECE 2 buck. then there time to warm up machine lol. it will fine. let be guess if not warm up part will be oversize bit bcoz it cut cool part and not warm part and it get shrinked after cooling. there is coolant LOL 300 part from bar john see 150 knife xD someone actually want mass produced knives. things was diff when they was 1 at time hand maded. still same cost? they should be so cheap when all is automatic lol. like from china

I can't think of a reason that oil is used in the Swiss. WHY do they insist on using oil. I couldn't deal with that mess.

Kinda surprised y’all don’t just have an automatic screw machine or two just for the screws y’all produce. Yeah setup takes an entire day, but if you produce enough volume to make it worth your while, then it frees up other machines for tasks that can only be done with CNC.

How did you get the 3 phase power to your machines? Did you have to call the power company?

I want a Rask. :drool:

Why and I watching this? I just spent 10+ hours on a swiss machine. I think I have a problem.