Great video! I'd love to see you guys do a DAC Tier List to match the Headphone Amp Tier List. That list helped me to purchase my Headphone Amp a few months ago.
I'll call that "harshness" tiny distortions in especially the high-mids / low-treble, when the music becomes very busy and saturated as mentioned here. I recently upgraded from a $300 to $750 DAC and there's a clear difference even below $1000. I also had a $900 dac-amp but I kept using my $300 one and traded the former in for the cheaper $750 one. As much as reviews praise things and pricing tries to guide you, just trust auditions and combos with your own gear and music.
Like the guy in the middle says, $10,000.00, that's my car. I can't even consider $10,000.00 for an entire entertainment system, tv included. But from this video I learned that the lower half end of DACs are all mostly the same. So it's down to features. BTW, I do like the guy in the middle in the way he explains things. It seems he tries to keep guys like me (I drive a delivery truck) in mind when he's describing things. Thanks! 🙂
I have done a lot of testing of my old school enlightened audio designs dacs and dac/pre/processors back and forth and can can confirm going up the ladder gets you more black backgrounds, more refinement, more easful listening, more space in between notes, larger soundstage, hearing deeper into the recording and subtle stuff that was blurred can be heard better. Also don't hurt to have a dac with its own separate power supply (both that and dad filled with expensive not available any more blackface capacitors). Another thing I want to mention is it's important feeding the dac with a good source weather it's a really good streamer or CD transport. I have had really good results feeding my dacs with streamers and trying the audio pc steamer jplay. I know it can be controversial and not really convenient but it has really shown what my old dac can do through headphones and 2 channel system. So much better that I stopped spinning discs in my transport.
Can confirm the merry-go-round, and the difference the DAC makes toward the “end.” I clung to my Benchmark DACs for a long time until taking a chance on the SagraDAC recently, and I couldn’t believe how much better it is over even the DAC3. You wouldn’t think, because it looks much worse on paper. With the Benchmarks, there were details in some of my music that I legitimately thought were distortion. When I came back to some of those tracks with the SagraDAC, that “distortion” turned out to be actual sounds. You all should talk about that thing more, because there’s next to no information about it around the net. I only bothered to gamble on it, because I already have the Formula S. And if there’s something you all like even better… uh, actually, I’m not sure I want to know.
Another great video guys thank you. I think the points in this discussion apply to a lot of high end stuff, cars smartphones and such. A person who is not at a certain level often mocks those who have reached level, often saying "..you can buy x and it will do the same, you don't need y". I've got a friend who likes to say, "where are you going to drive that high powered car, we all have to obey speed limits", he completely overlooks the fact that his lower powered car is safe to drive near its limits because of knowledge gained while developing these high speed machines.
Second! Lol. Lovely vid guys.. I wonder if you could do a vid on the r2r resistor ladder system you mentioned earlier on in the vid? That would be cool. Xx
Exactly, the guy in the middle has no clue what 'digital' is/means and how it is converted, and simply describes the brochure illustrations of a digital 'stepped signal'..and blindly believes in 'real estate'. I stopped watching this video at that point.
It’s a freaking miracle that cheap DACs and expensive DACs both decode the ones and zeros ..it’s the implementation of the output via the 2 or 4 volt line amplifier to the pre amp, headphone stack it amplifier.
This is so dead-on, totally agreed. But define low end? There are some dacs sub 1k that are astonishingly resolving, detailed, rich, spacious, deep, etc. Beaten to death in reviews so far: Denafrips Ares II Is now a “dream dac” for me at my cost allowance. I currently have an Airist r2r dac that was “low end” by cost that still sounds head and shoulders above any others I’d heard in the same price range. At least on my system. So these prices in the automobile range? I’ll just make sure to cover my ears anytime I might get near one 🙏🏼
The Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem says that all of the information of an analog signal can be recreated with a digital sampling rate that's twice the bandwidth of the continuous signal (in fact, the true analog signal would be the ONLY solution). This is why CD quality audio is 44.1kHz (99+% of humans can't hear sounds above 22kHz). It's definitely arguable that some higher frequency sounds could cause harmonic effects in the audible frequencies, but that ~should~ be ~mostly~ negligible. And higher bit depth (24 vs 16) gives greater dynamic range (effectively lower noise floor because mastering music at a higher volume than what 16bit can provide would cause clipping for almost everyone). I guess what I'm saying is how do higher end DACs sound "smoother" (as in a less jagged audio wave form)? Is it the analog and power delivery side? Do lower end DACs cause some interference with the analog signal? Because if the digital signal is messed up it would sound like complete garbage. I might just be wanting a bit closer to a lecture than a podcast discussion which is my b.
The only thing I can imagine would be the analog signal suffering some sort of interference from the power supply. I, however, could not find a study demonstrating that these differences are audible.
Theory ultimately have to meet with the real, practical electronic circuit. One of the challenge for DAC is the low pass filter to cut off stuffs > 20KHz. In theory, we like to draw a sharp straight line that cuts off anything beyond 20KHz cleaning. In real life low pass filters have a shape and slope that is quite far away from the knife edge we do in theory chart. This is just one area where a good implementation matters (and the reason why upsampling works).
@@melcharson Yeag the low-pass filter roll off is why the sample rate is 44.1 not 40kHz (I glossed over that originally). It just blows my mind that what is essentially a low-pass filter upgrade can cost thousands of dollars.
@@jacobwelsh4772 first order LPF rolls off too gently and that introduces uneven filtering at the high freq end. Higher order LPF has a sharper slope but the ripples at both end introduces distortions. So yes, this is definitely one area that differentiates good DAC from poorer ones. 2/3 of the good money on a DAC is actually spent on the analogue circuits rather than the digital side.
@@melcharson Which is just my first question. I figured it was just the analog portion. Which is why I specifically asked about that. And issues at the higher frequency caused by the low pass filter still wouldn't cause stair stepping in the analog signal
look up Nyquist Theorem. The output of a Dac is never stepped or saw-toothed. Educate yourselves on digital electronics. The devices round up or down: everything below a certain amount is a 0 or above that amount is a 1. It wouldn’t matter if it overshoots, it’s still a 1 because it’s still above the level where it is seen as a 1. It is very easy to differentiate between 1s and 0s. I’m not saying that all DACs are the same, but they aren’t different for any of the reasons these people are talking about.
I think they were talking about timing issues, not the accuracy of interpretation. The issue is kinda the same either way. The animations certainly are a gross oversimplification, I assume the point was to show a DAC could matter without getting exceptionally technical.
@@jeffreylehman1159 It takes a very unusual amount of noise to effect the voltage enough to make digital circuitry confuse 1s an 0s. I already explained why this was in the post you replied to.
@@kevingest5452 Yes, I agree, but I’m not talking about transcription errors, but about how the digital source is handled. If it was just 1’s and 0’s then we would be using DAC chips from the 80’s. The analog output stage determines a lot of the nature of the sound, or do you not think that a pre-amp, say, has anything to do with the sound of your system? The other factors also can have a say in how the DAC sounds as well.
@@jeffreylehman1159 Well, consider this: In the 80’s about the only DACs people used for music listening were in CD players. Those 80s DACs sounded good enough that throughout the late 80s and early 90s, the vast majority of music listeners switched from vinyl to CD. In recent years we seem to have rediscovered how good records can sound and a large percentage of audio enthusiasts… the types of people who invest in quality sound and have access to good Modern DACS, will often chose to listen to recordings on vinyl when they are available. If the 80s DACSs were good enough that people switched from vinyl to CD, but now people often chose vinyl over modern DACS, can modern DACS really be so much better than 80’s DACS?
At of all the stupidity out there in audio reviews it’s nice to find intelligence,as a audio engineer it’s good to hear truth not some individuals personal systems performance opinion ,looking forward to your next video 👍🏼
My god all the errors and false statements about digital audio here… these gentlemen still appear to believe that digital audio is stairsteps coming out instead of smooth sine waves. Is this really the level of understanding headphone manufacturers have about their expertise? They surely have audio engineers in the house, no? Am I being punked here?
Thank you for this video! I honestly do think balanced on my AMP sounds better! But after seeing your video on balanced headphones/amps I realize it's not that it sounds better just there may be some interference or things going on to effect the non balanced, which makes sense as my DAC/AMP is surrounded by electronic equipment and in plugged in to a surge protected with many things which is plugged into a wall with a lot running on that circuit... This video is even more helpful to understand just how big of a difference a dac makes (as well as your rating AMPs video) Right now all my gear is combined DAC/AMPs and they are all very good AMP sections, hate to think I need to get a dedicated DAC but I think now I am ready to drop the big boy bucks on one that are in the same price range as my current units or maybe sell my units and go for dedicated DAC and AMP combo.... Thank you Abyss!
I was always a cd guy didn’t really bother with a dac as I had a decent naim cd player then I moved house and switched to headphones as I now have neighbour below me, I just went for Focal arche to go with the focal clear mgs as I didn’t have a clue what I was buying thankfully it payed off.
Dang, so 100-500 I would assume is the price range they are taking about in cheap. Good to know I’ll just stick with what I got for now until I end up moving.
Does always baffle me when 'pure analogue' like tape or reel to reel is the regarded as a goal for digital, and the high bar, considering how poor and low res a medium that is, compared to what digital is capable of. I get the notion that is sounds enjoyable, but its not really high end or cutting edge in any technical or performance regard, to my knowledge, quite the opposite. But as is often the way in audio.
Well learnt something new again, so it's reasonably true that at the "low end" DAC sound about the same but I know they do very in terms of warmth but not convinced how a DAC changes sound stage? Here is my request, I'd live you to cover pre amping compared to double amping, I've heard a few descriptions but I have a feeling yours may be on the money.
Thanks for explaining. One question i still have. How to use a dac at surround sound. Does dac,s support atmos, dts and what. Impact has the dac on surroud. Bigger, smaller, also on spacial direction etc etc?
In audio most separate DAC"s are stereo (L/R channels). Multi channel surround sound for movies and video is primarily handled by all in one receivers, HDMI connections, etc. Apple supports ATMOS decoding for stereo music if you use their products.
DACs are definitely relatively low on the totem pole of parts of the audio system that make the most difference in overall sound quality, with the quality and performance of your SPEAKERS (arguably) making the BIGGEST, and MOST important difference or improvement in sound if they are significantly upgraded. You can spend literally ANY amount of money on an audio system, all the way from totally free, "hand-me-down" stuff given to you by your grandpa, etc., or even stuff that you sometimes find in a dumpster or on the curbside... to thriftstores and yard sales... to buying new stuff from your local "big box" retail or online store... all the way up to spending literally MILLIONS, (or even more), on the extremely high-end "boutique" gear for your entire audio system, some of which is just WAAAY overpriced, maybe simply because of its looks or "prestige" or "uniqueness", LOL!... But in any case, with pretty much ANY, (at least semi-decent quality), audio system, even some of the better portable bluetooth speakers nowadays, you're getting probably about 90% or thereabouts, of the absolute "best", "total 100%" of the sound available, (from say an actual live performance right in front of you in the same space, for comparison), and so then above the portable stuff, with even moderately priced, but still relatively "entry level" (if/when compared to anything "higher-end"), REAL audio equipment, (like a separate source component, separate amp or receiver, and separate speakers I mean, vs. just an "all-in-one" unit like your phone or a portable bluetooth speaker, etc.), then at that separate component level you're then getting anywhere from about 99-99.99(9)% of the "best possible" sound, but it's that very last, tiniest, 0.001% (or however many zeros you want to put before the 1), of sound that a (really good quality, separate component) DAC can (potentially) bring out in the music... It's just relative to whatever overall quality level your entire audio system, (and its weakest link, whatever that may be), actually is, and if you're (only) at the 90-99% level of overall potential sound with your current audio system, then using a separate component DAC isn't going to make much, (if even ANY), difference in overall sound quality from your system, because at that relatively lower performance level you don't even yet have all of the "basics" fully covered in your system first, however, if you already have at least to the relative "99.99(9)%" level (or more) from your audio system already, then at THAT relative overall performance point then you MAY benefit from getting a really good separate component DAC to (potentially) tweak that very last 0.00(whatever)01% of sound quality from your system... But with some (significantly good quality) DACs costing literally as much as a new car, (in order to actually get to the performance level that makes a true improvement in sound quality), is it really worth buying one?... Maybe if your overall audio system is already up to that 99.99(9)% level or higher, then maybe yes, but if your already existing overall audio system, (whatever it may be), is NOT yet up to that point of quality, then your money would be considerably better invested in improving the "basics" of your system up to that (99.99...%) level first, because ONLY THEN, after/above and beyond that point, will you really get any additional benefit or improvement in overall sound quality (from adding a separate component DAC) than what you already have from your audio system as it already is... The weakest link in your entire audio system will be the biggest determing factor, (and totally limiting factor), to the overall sound that you are able to hear from your system with your actual ears and brain, and for most typical, "average" consumers, that weakest link is usually, (almost always, from what I've noticed in other people's "systems"), is their speakers, and then a close second, the quality of amplification for said speakers, so THOSE two *absolutely essential* things is where most people should look to upgrade to the highest level that they can possibly afford first, before EVER considering (otherwise wasting money on) getting a separate component DAC... You also must ask yourself HONESTLY if YOU (and YOUR ears), can even actually hear any level of sound quality above and beyond the "99%" level... MOST average people cannot hear ANY better than that, (some not even that good, especially if they have "abused" their ears over the years with attending lots of loud concerts, or blasting their headphones, or blasting their car stereos while driving, etc.), so getting a separate component DAC is definitely not for the average person... Also, you have to consider if even listening to music with any kind of "detail" or *attention* like actually sitting down in the "sweet spot" of your audio system, is even your thing... Do you actually even care that much about music?... Or, are you like my friend, who only "listens" to music at lower volumes in the background, (just to have some "noise" on to drown out silence), while he's doing other tasks around the house, etc... If you're a person like that then having a separate DAC would be a total waste, because you wouldn't ever even notice any difference in sound quality even IF it was there. I guess it's ALL relative to your own individual habits, behaviors, tastes, preferences, AND priorities, of what is important to you, and I would say that buying a DAC is definitely not a priority for most average people... And it really *shouldn't* be anything to ever consider spending any extra money on either, if you are like most average consumers, like what I mentioned above... Pretty much the ONLY people who would (potentially) get ANY benefit from having a separate component DAC are actual audiophiles with an already really good (>99.99...% performance level) audio system, who ALSO enjoy really closely listening to and fully enjoying and "immersing" themselves in their music while listening in the "sweet spot" of their audio system most of the time... But anyone who doesn't at least consider themselves to be an actual "audiophile" and/or anyone who *doesn't* have an audio system that is at least already at that previously mentioned (99.99...%) "minimum" performance level to begin with, (or anyone who doesn't care to upgrade the other basic components in their audio system up to that level first), doesn't really need to even consider buying a separate component DAC, otherwise they'd just basically be totally wasting their money... AND, I almost forgot to even mention... can you even AFFORD to buy all of the equipment needed first to really actually benefit from having a separate component DAC, AND, then buying the DAC itself on top of the total cost of your basic audio system?... I unfortunately cannot... And even though I DO consider myself to be an "audiophile", (at least in the facts that I have taken very careful care of my hearing over the years, so I can still actually hear better than most who are younger than me, AND I actually enjoy listening to all of my music in the "sweet spot" of my audio system, plus I CAN actually hear and I definitely appreciate the really good sound quality from truly high-end components that I might sometimes get to hear at high-end audio salons and a very select few other people's houses every once in a while), I simply do not make enough money myself to actually buy any of the higher-end gear, especially not new! I am (unfortunately) limited to buying the "best" stuff that I can find at my local thriftstores and garage sales, etc... I have amassed a pretty "decent" audio system over the decades that way, but I still wouldn't consider my audio system to quite be up to the performance level needed to actually be able to hear any differences in sound quality in using a separate component DAC... My own current stereo system is only up to about maybe 99% of the "best" that I've ever heard anywhere, and from what I've experienced, that level is not quite enough to actually hear and appreciate the differences and improvements a separate DAC would offer. So, unless and until I can find even better audio gear than what I already have, probably used and definitely still very inexpensively, OR I maybe find a good separate component DAC in a thriftstore, etc., then I'll probably never own anything better than the one that is already built into my Onkyo CD changer. That sounds fine to me until I maybe can find something more *actual* high-end for a price that I can still afford. (I buy/have bought most of my stereo components at thriftstores and garage sales for under $20 per piece of gear, so that range is my very meager "budget".)
9:20 My 20 year old CD player sounds more detailed then streaming. But the voice sound is way less harsh through my new Samsung tablet. Have chip DACs advanced a lot in the last 20 years?
On my high level gear it is really easy to choose between bad and good dacs, but when I put my 60$ headphones with topping l30 and listen to youtube song, they sounds kinda the same, but the difference is that with my 1bit dac I always change the song like I am looking for something, but with my entry level multibit dac I listen to the end of every song and just enjoy the music. So my experience is that multibit dacs are something different and this is my starting point. Is it multibit - yes, ok lets hear it.
The three of you just made an audio RU-vid channel enjoyable. No need to throw 17 graphs up on the screen, no need to discuss your own products, just three nice guys who know what they’re talking about In every day language. I just found a new channel to watch and enjoy. Thank you
You're right, there is much misinformation out there concerning the sound of DAC's. Come to find that 99.9999999999999% of people don't design DAC's for a living, which is why we come at this from more a subjective point of view with explanations non-technical people can relate to.
So would a pair of HD660S be considered a good enough pair of headphones that I should notice a difference with a good DAC? Right now I’m running a Modi 3+ with an O2 amp
youd be able to hear difference between 100-500$ dacs vs 2000-10000$ dacs yeah, when the dac is good enough u could basically hear it on anything but point being no one is plugging a
I can not hear a difference, I swear and I have Stax headphones - it is not for lack of resolution on my equipment. I am 43 years old, I can hear up to 15-17 kHz, which is typical for my age... and then we should use 192 kHz files or I do not know. Who are we kidding? I would argue DACs are new cables. Great opportunity for manufactures to make money.
There could be many reasons why you don’t hear a difference but just because you don’t hear a difference doesn’t mean there isn’t one. I know I can hear a difference and in some cases it’s substantial. Consider yourself lucky. Your cheaper system is good enough. No need to upgrade.
@@SkywhiteChannel Interesting. I'm on the market for a new DAC, so I guess it would be in my best interest if there were no differences. Have you ever done double blind tests on DACs ?
Then I would suggest you have never compared a low-end with a high-end unit. I have and the difference is quite substantial, particularly as the Abyss guys suggested, in the higher pitched content.
@@DrinkWater713, simply by listening to the various converters via high-quality headphones and deciding which sounded better. Of course, that is a subjective comparison, but the specification sheet of each DAC already indicated which was more ACCURATE.
For me the source is the most important thing!!!!! switch, streamer, rg45 cable usb, reclocker and linear power until you get that perfect no need to upgrade the rest!!!!!!
It's difficult to explain the complex variables of the A/D then D/A process, this is the easiest way to describe. Did you see us trying to describe phase in 5 minutes, ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-b3Vqzt89m0g.html
I'm excited for my first DAC, and honestly it sounds like it'll serve me well until the very highest of ends. What would be a good metric to decide when to upgrade? A price point? Specific models? For context, the best headphones I have are the HD 6XX and I'm getting a Fiio K5 Pro.
It always start with the sound, if you ever decide to upgrade. depending on how much you willing to spend, you should compare your normal AKM and sabre dac to some R2R stuff from denafrip and meturm and see which you prefer.
Easy fix. Go analogue!! Think about it, you already have great media's like tape and vinyl. Then some idiots makes recordings digital, and then back to analogue?? Seems like a detour, right?? Digital sucks!
Still waiting to hear what goes into engineering a $10,000 DAC that measures the same or worse than a $100 measurably perfect DAC better. You didn't explain that.
@@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices it’s not the signal, everything that deals with it generates noise that contaminates the D/A process. PC’s tend to be the worst offenders, but the DAC itself can piss in its own bath water.
what about the other way around..........if the dac is pretty good but the iem/headphone or speaker is not so.............will the audio be enjoyable.............just wondering..............great videos anyways.................thanku
What the hell? Higher resolution digital makes the analog signal "smoother"?! What rock did these nitwits crawl from under? The Nyquist Shannon theorem (ON WHICH ALL DIGITAL AUDIO SCIENCE IS BASED!) explains in unequivocal terms, any resolution higher than twice the highest represented frequency will recreate the original waveform perfectly. Not "approach it" or "almost perfectly", no, perfectly. That part is a very well understood physics issue that really doesn't hold any secrets. But these jokers talk as if DACs produce an approximation. They don't! Do. Not. The implementation of a DAC chip in it's specific circuit may make some audible difference, but only in case of subpar design. Unless you change speakers, all moderately well implemented DACs will sound equal. It is a scientific fact, not an opinion. Enough talk about myths already.
Placebo, not saying anyone is wrong nut humans are really good at justifying their own action. That could be why when you go super expensive, you hear a difference. You actually might be hearing a difference because your brain is justifying. We can’t actually scientifically measure that.
The software used - coming from a Audirvana perspective, can be a very nice/cheaper way to improve on the sound coming out of your existing hardware. It is almost like you put in another DAC.
As long as it’s using exclusive mode and an external DAC then there isn’t much difference the software will make. Roon and Audirvāna are both really popular and sound identical
