The real issue with Marvel fight scenes is summed up really well by Jackie Chan. To paraphrase "You can always tell when actors don't know how to fight. You will see lots of cuts from lots of angles to hide the fact that they aren't punching or kicking. That's why my movies don't have cuts in the action scenes"
This analysis is completely undermined by the behind the scenes footage for Winter Soldier where we can see that Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan were absolutely able to do the fight choreography and do it really well only to have it be ruined by the choppy editing.
@@CouchSpud91 I haven't seen them, but the choppy editing still makes it look like it. The real shame of it is that because they wear masks, it would be easy to switch them out with another stunt actor, which is something that the other actors in Marvel have mentioned doing. So even if the actors aren't either physically able to do the choreography or able to learn it, they're in a position to be swapped with someone that can.
@@CouchSpud91 Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan were undermined by choppy editing is what you are saying. Yes I'm paraphrasing Mrs Newman there. Mr Chan's point still hold water. Maybe just not always but certainly not completely.
@@CouchSpud91 If you look behind the scenes you also see several camera's kinda swinging around. It'd be nice if they actually planned some shots. Edit: honestly, I much rather see some of clunkiness than the choreagraphy being hidden.
Although cuts and poor choreography often go hand in hand, they are not inexorably linked in the way JC implies so it ends up just being a forced limitation for poor reasons. In much the same way Tarantino's one-camera limitation is alluded to here. It might well be a limitation that works in a way that focuses a specific director, but it is not a hard and fast rule. With accurate and well executed choreography, you can just as easily allow yourself to reposition cameras where you would otherwise break up the action and do cuts, without any break in the action at all. You're literally just showing the scene, as it was done, in one take, with the added benefit of coverage, assuming you put as much planning into the extra coverage as you do the "main" shot.
The fact that you neglected to mention the “I Need A Hero” scene after teasing us with a Shrek 2 acknowledgment....... Unforgivable. That’s the most iconic action scene in cinematic history. Quenching Tarantula WISHES 🙄
He also showed clips of The Raid at the beginning, yet didn't mention The Raid 2 Kitchen Fight; which as we all know, is the best fight scene in cinematic history.
"I've watched at least ten movies in my day" Shrek, Shrek II, Shrek the Third, Shrek 4, Shrek Spinoff, Garfield, Garfield 2, The Seventh Seal, FRED the Movie, and Rashomon. Quite a selection.
I am not sure if I've ever laughed harder in a theater than at "Bye Miss Laura" when the lady in the doorway gets shot and flies off cartoonishly IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION
Alright hbomb, I love your videos, but your criticism of the American classic Death Wish 3 on the 4th of July weekend is practically a declaration of war.
Tarantino is a master of action but I would argue that John Wick also manages something impressive by creating incredibly lengthy and bombastic action sequences that actually keep things relatively minimalist with John relying on a pistol or two and his physical abilities. By diversifying the setups in a scene, they manage to take a relatively stripped back sequence and give it a ton of energy and versatility. The club scene in the first one and the New York sequence in Chapter 2 are great examples.
Also, you can never talk too long about Tarantino. He just makes films in this really cinematic.. WAY. That's just special, it's just really, really special.
H.Bomberguy is a guy who drops H. bombs. But it's also a pun on his name, Harris Brewis. "Harris Bomberguy" is a humorous mashup of the two that doesn't really make sense.
Actually the thing he is touching is a barrel shroud. Barrel shrouds are there to prevent the user from burning his hands. The actual barrel is smaller and inside. He still grabs the gun in a very weird and unnatural way and there is no way he can manage the recoil of a gun, that is meant to be shot from a tripod, like that. He looks like an old and confused man just being given a machine gun.
Aw, but Death Wish 3 is the most cartoony action film ever made! A creepy old mumbly Polish guy concocts reasons to murder people with bigger and bigger weaponry, culminating in the bad guy being blown out of a window with a rocket launcher! There's Home Alone traps, thugs being shot out of trees, Bill from Bill and Ted riding the hood of Deanna Troi's car, it's got everything! Even the Giggler! They killed the Giggler, man!
Man, Home Alone. Home Alone was the first movie with Joe Pesci I ever watched. This was a guy who made his name violent stomping Italian dudes to death, screaming obscenities, and being the angriest shortest pseudo-Italian man on the literal film. But that was the first film I ever saw him in, being the dipshit mobster get cartoonishly beaten in ways that would actually kill a man in real life. 7 year old me loved that shit. I laughed until my gut hurt. A couple years ago, I watched it again (after watching Goodfellas and Casino), and it kind of felt like...I dunno, Christ himself getting crucified. The old Francis Ford Coppola Hollywood dying for the future sins of slapstick Super hero Hollywood future. It was painful, not just because the jokes were canned, but because Joe Pesci is an incredible actor who decided that he was going to headshot his career by staring in one incredibly canned film. Sorry. HBomberguy, doing a cinematic introspective on more movies, you're actually really pretty good at deconstructing themes.
A White Guy Sadly that was the first Joe Pesci movie I saw too... probably a lot for my generation. But then I saw the gut-bustingly funny My Cousin Vinny and I saw him in a whole new light. :D
The Mandalorian meets all of these criteria for good action, but I think the most important part is that the characters surrounding the action are engaging. If you isolate a single action scene from Pulp Fiction, you're not going to care very much. Having watched the movie, though, you know the motivations, the emotions, and you feel like you're there.
Every Frame a Panting has a great video on Jackie Chan's work in action comedies and also going into detail about the flow of an action sequence and how major an impact good choreography has over cheap editing. It has a ton of views so you are likely to have watched it, but if not check it out!
The World's End with Simon Pegg and Nick Frost has some of the best fight scenes I've ever seen in it. The choreography is second to none, and they're shot very well too.
I thought that the Avengers-on-Avengers battle in Civil War was hilarious. That studio eventually put out a decent comedic action sequence. Then again, I have only seen about 3 of the 482 films in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so maybe I'm not the best judge.
It's funnily-written but, like, just on this flat terrain with nothing visually interesting going on. Ant man goes big and then just stands there. You get every permutation of characters standing off and quipping in what amounts to the Disney parking lot, and the fights or attempts at visual comedy are like, 'eh'.
But they put it in the movie that is suppose to be the sobering moment for the franchise where they contextualize all of the goofy climaxes of the previous films. I found it super jarring and made me take the story even less seriously because of it.
Not only did I not mind the choice of flat featureless terrain, I thought it was a good choice. It was about the characters. If you had all this crazy Lovecraftian crap in the background (or whatever you'd prefer) it would only serve to distract the focus. Ant Man increasing in size didn't bother me. If he moved about quickly, it would have taken me out of it. I'm sure there's some sort of anatomical/physics reason that large creatures move slowly, but I'm not sure what it is. It's the same reason why Godzilla looks silly when he does those jumping jacks. When he increased in size, it was more about him becoming part of the environment, it was more about the other characters playing off him... perhaps enhancing the scenery a bit to compensate for the shortcomings you felt in their choice of locale. Finally, I thought there was some interesting things going on with Spider Man's acrobatics and Ant Man shrinking and going inside Iron Man's armor. That last bit in particular seemed really clever to me. I'm not saying it was a masterpiece of physical comedy or anything, but I was impressed enough.
***** The lead-up fight was very chop-socky with a lot of anime bits thrown in. I will say that Leone was himself quite influenced by Kurosawa (after all, he did remake _Yojimbo_ as _A Fistful of Dollars_), but the careful build up to a one-on-one battle that's over in seconds is one of Leone's trademarks and you see it all over Tarantino's works, Kill Bill in particular. Heck, when Bill is playing the flute outside the church in Part 2, the music playing is actually from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly where Lee Van Cleef (The Bad) makes his entrance.
That was one of the most boring martial arts fights put on film. I applaud Tarantino for doing clear and easy to follow action, but he fudges on making it look even close to real. It was like I was watching Power Rangers with blood.
I think Tarantino using only one camera is good though. It means you can get precise lighting and you're paying attention to what is in the frame. You're more careful about how you shoot if there's only one angle. If you know you're likely to fall back on a crutch, get rid of the crutch. It's why I draw in pen a lot. (Not always, obviously.) Some other rules I wish film makers would abide by: If you can use practical effects, use practical effects. Don't fall back on CGI, it's lazy. If it's not needed, cut it. Don't overcrowd your frames (GEORGE LUCAS) *ahem* Only cut if it adds something. If the cut is useless, don't cut.
Every Frame A Painting did a really nice retrospective on Jackie Chan films that touch on this subject. It's a different method than the directors you mentioned here, but Jackie also had some really good methods for making things like headbutts have impact, or lead the viewers attention to a specific thing.
That Avengers scene baffled me so much that I never registered it as Black Widow headbumping the guy... but as her "whipping" him in the face with her long girly hair. I was like "Is that possible?". So bad.
How hard would it be to have him move his head closer? Maybe have a take where she winds up her head to hit him and one where she does the headbutt, the second take having his head far away enough that he doesn’t actually get hit.
I find it kinda funny that the action scene with Black Widow from the Avengers that you’re using as an example of a bad action scene is one of my favourites in the whole franchise for how badass it is 😂
Same here! I really love her character (or at least the concepts and themes in her story) and I loved seeing the subversion of the femme fatal and the movie tropes of the time. I'm not sure how well it still holds up but it was really nice to see my feminine rage personified. I really feel like her character fell off after the age of Ultron and never really recovered which makes me super upset she has a lot of cool lore in the comics but I always feel like no matter what black widow media I read/ watch none of it really resonates as much as it could I really just hope one day that she gets the story she deserves I think the reason she fell off was that the MCU at the time of her story couldn't really write women or at least Natasha they pretended that she had more depth than what they gave her (which wasn't much) Sorry if this doesn't make sense I just love the character as a whole and really want a good rendition of her.
I find it very interesting that I agree with you on pretty much everything you say regarding politics, sexism, whatever. And then when it's about movies, you love the movies I hate and vice versa. I agree on the points you make, but we might not agree on the rating for a single movie. It's fascinating
@@duncanallaire2392Haha. It is kinda funny how much sense it would make though. "I'm a conservative misogynist, but boy do we see eye to eye on Quentin Tarantino films!"
There are a few points you made in this video that I disagree with, so here they are in chronological order: 1. While I completely agree that Death Wish 3 is not a good film, it's also very much a product of its time. It was a second sequel in the 80's, which means it was the point where Death Wish transformed into a series (trilogies weren't really A Thing back then, even after Star Wars). Which in turn meant that the studio figured they didn't need to give deathwishman a deep characterization or an engaging narrative, since at that point he was a series protagonist, not a primary character in a single movie. 2. I don't think the action sequences in the Marvel movies were that bad. Tarantino has a very particular opinion on what makes a good action scene and an ego the size of Mt. Everest, but liking or disliking the action in the MCU is ultimately a matter of taste (the camera work in the Black Widow scene was godawful though). 3. The pistol scene in From Dusk Till Dawn 3. The purpose of the derringer in that scene is fundamentally different than in Django, and I think it actually works really well. The message of the whole scene is not "holy shit, she has a gun", but "holy shit, she's not defenseless", which is conveyed through her movement and the reactions to it (which is the focus of the shot, as it should be). The reason she's holding a derringer is simply to explain how she could have hidden a gun away on her person (this not being a Tarantino film where realism is waived for the sake of Rule of Cool). 4. The action scenes in Avengers were never meant to have much comedy in them. It's a fundamental error to think just because one part of a film has comedic writing, then all of the film must have comedic writing. Avengers is a comic book movie, meant to translate comic book sensibilities to film, and I think it succeeds extremely well in that (which is one of the main areas where I feel like the DC movies dropped the ball massively, as they tried to divorce their subject matter from its comic origins and deliver a purely cinematic superhero movie, which has worked exactly never).
It's been a while since I watched The Avengers last and seeing these clips here is a shocking contrast to the fight choreography in The Winter Soldier.
To your point on implied death in film, one moment that has stuck with me since I saw it is the scene in No Country For Old Men in which Chigurh steps out of Llewellyn's wife's house after coming in with the intent to kill her and checking the bottoms of his boots for blood. It shows early on that he likes to keep his boots clean to set it up, and it creates a chilling moment without actually showing you anything
To be fair, with the Deathwish Series, we already have 2 movies prior telling us the backstory, development motivations and actions of the main character. Hence why 3 just skips that and jumps straight into the action. It's not the best film in the series, but at least with 3 you know what you're getting because in action series, it works in that setting because the further down the line you go, the less interested you usually are with hearing about the main character's backstories because we've already seen it. The way to do it right is kinda like Rambo. First Blood is an amazing film which tells a very deep, underlying narrative of the effects of war has on the human mind and just how far a single man will go to defend himself if he feels he's being pushed over the edge by society. First Blood Part 2 carries on some of those ideas, but focuses more on generic action. But we still see more development in Rambo's character with how he interacts with the Vietnamese freedom fighter he ends up falling for. Rambo 3, which is one of the worst ones in the series does carry on SOME elements of Rambo's character evolution. He still wears that girl's necklace that shows us the audience that the events of the previous film just weren't swept under the rug. That character affected Rambo in a very deep and powerful way, otherwise why would he bother to keep her necklace? And Rambo 4.....I got nothing. That movie was just plain awful.
I keep watching bronson hold that machine gun barrel with his bare hands. MG barrels get so hot when you shoot them (especially as fast as he is) they turn deep,deep red.
Me before watching: "I'd say Music, Dialogue, Camerawork, Acting and Stuntwork all contribute, and... any action scene can become stellar, if even just one of those things is handled expertly." Me after watching: "Ah, I see the real answer is Hbomberguy in a ScarJo wig." ~~ Lol, but seriously, nice vid. I'd been avoiding your vids for the longest time (despite the youtube recommendation algorithm) because I felt the "___ is ___ and here's why" title format was way too clickbaity, but after my brother (whom just finished his doctorate and I respect a lot) recommended me your channel I've found myself watching all your vids (I say that, I'm only about 10 or so vids in, but I'll finish 'em all dang it!). So just wanna say I like your content and hope you have many years to come of making it as long as it brings ye joy.
How are you not a more popular youtuber! Everything you say or explain is perfectly said that it shows what your trying to explain but at the same time is utterly hilarious!! 😂
I do love Death Wish 3 lol. I always think of it as a comedy though. When he says "Teeth" to the old couple, it makes me laugh every time. This take on action scenes in general is brilliant.
[looks at title of video] [doesn't say "why marvel movies are bad"] [understands that sometimes giving a single example of something is all you need to do and going on an off topic rant is usually a bad way to make a point]
Wish this vid had been made while I was college for film and could show it to my class. This articulated my thoughts in action movies and scenes so perfectly.
I've recently rewatched some MCU films and while I didn't really notice what you were talking about in The Avengers, I did notice that Thor has a lot of weird, random Dutch angles. Like, in every other scene. For some reason, Kenneth Branagh even did Dutch angles for many of the establishing shots, and for the life of me I cannot understand why.
Holy shit, I've had an issue with the MCU's action scenes since the first Avengers movie came out, and I could never properly say why. Thank you for finally offering me the answer
I was never really confused/jarred by the Black Widow scene, and it seems to me like it *was* character-driven action. Actually several action scenes in the Avengers seem fairly character-driven; the Thor and Loki fights spring to mind.
VolokArtyom i've seen it, and i love the kurosawa films on which a lot of leone's were based. i think what really made leone the best for his action scenes, however, was the music. it was selected and applied incredibly well and it adds SO much to the leone westerns. i mean, not everyone has a ennio morricone in their back pockets, but i think a lot of action scenes are hurt by bad music.
Hello. Stunt fighter, actor, coordinator, and motion-capture director here. It takes so much to make a good action scene. Aside from performers who know what they're doing - acting the fight, adjusting for camera, keeping energy up but being safe through countless takes - you need a coordinator who's good, a DP who can shoot action, and an editor who can cut it. I've done fights where the script just says, "They fight. It's awesome." And that's fine, if the director can get out of the way while the experts do their job. Or better yet, a director like Chad Stahelski (John Wick) will be as adept as anyone on set. The results of the latter speak for themselves.
Metal Gear Solid 4 (which is basically a movie) has two characters who realize they've been in love for the entire game WHILE WORKING TOGETHER TO SHOOT DOZENS OF BAD GUYS. They come within like, two seconds of boning, then remember there are still more people to shoot.
Every Frame A Painting has a vid on action comedy that covers a lot of the same beats w/r/t cutting between two cameras, attacks looking like they don't connect, and frame composition. I think it works as a nice companion piece to this one, plus you get to see some classic Jackie Chan.
I wasn't on board with your Marvel argument, but then you threw to a clip of COMMUNITY season 6 and now, exclusively for that, I say you're 100% correct.
One action movie I really like of course is Mad Max Fury Road but another I adore is Hot Fuzz, even though it's also a parody. You can really tell they did their homework about what makes action great.
I also love he hipfires that lmg like it wouldn't burn his hands off. Our manly hero, he has no feeling in his hands anymore from shooting so much, truely an aspiring rolemodel.
I thought the same thing! Now granted, there are stories from WWII of soldiers and marines doing what he did with that very same machine gun, but they also had the excuse of having enough adrenaline running through them to kill a horse so they didn’t feel the third degree burns from it. God I hate when filmmakers don’t do their research about guns.
I think it's worth pointing out that Tarantino is on record as being heavily influenced by Sergio Leone. Anybody who's watched the Dollars trilogy, particularly The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, knows how Leone masterfully handled visual storytelling. The final shootout in TGTBATU is a great example. It's 5 minutes of build up and it's over in all of 8 seconds, but the tension really holds the whole time, starting with a broad bird's eye shot and gradually getting closer and closer as the moment nears. The introduction to Lee Van Cleef is also slow and deliberate, but he just oozes menace as he comes in and starts eating dinner with a guy they both know he's there to kill. Leone also had a great knack for building terrains out of the faces of his supporting actors and extras, who told the story of how brutal the world is just from their downtrodden, weather-beaten faces. The very first shot of The Good, The Bad and The Ugly is Al Mulock's wild face stepping in front of an untamed wild west plain. Tells you everything in the first 3 seconds. The scene where the captured Confederate soldiers have to sing to cover Tuco's beating is told by the faces alone. Same for the Union Captain who has to order another futile attack on a bridge that he knows will just kill more men under his command. To say nothing of the building zooms on the eyes of the final three gunfighters. There's a reason that film is one of my favourites.
If anyone here hasn't seen it already I'd highly recommend Every Frame a Painting's video on Jackie Chan. It's a great breakdown of how he shoots his fight scenes to both be funny but visceral.
