Is it price, parts quality, brands, or designers that makes some audio products sound better than others? Learn the truth behind how manufacturers decide what products are going to cost.
I wish that when I was a Beginner this video had been available. Started out reading the audio file magazines and soon realized nobody ever wrote a negative review of anything. I think Paul should do a part II on what I believe diminishing returns
After a totally frustrating days work (which I'm grateful to have under the covid circumstances) it's nice to listen to Paul's calming voice and learn something interesting and new at the same time. Thank you!
One of the key points with electronics is that we now have the technology to build a nearly perfect amplifier for audio reproduction. It is possible to design a 500W amplifier with .001% THD + N, and a full power bandwidth up to 50 kHz. For line stages (many would call them preamps), modern op-amps like the LM4562, OPA2132 and the OPA1642 mean that there is no reason why distortion can't be down in the .0005% range with a cutoff frequency well past 500 kHz. Nobody can hear the difference between .005% and .0005% THD. The math simply isn't in your favor. 0.005% THD corresponds to about -86 dB below the fundamental. Speakers are far less perfect, with much more limited transient and distortion performance.
Bought Vandersteen 2 speakers in 1979 from Robert Taylor-“Taylor House” Called him yesterday and he’s ordering me new Vandersteen 3a speakers. I’m excited
Paul coming straight out and admitting that the law of diminishing returns is very real in HiFi. Stereo salesmen all over the planet are frustrated with this video because they don't want this idea to become widely accepted, especially not in such a simple way. It's an obvious phenomenon but if you put numbers on it, as Andrew Robinson did in one of his videos about a year ago, you effectively tell people exactly where, at which price, they are going to get the most from their audio system dollar (or whatever currency you use). And that puts a practical cap on what most people will spend. And of course salesman don't want that to happen. They want you to spend as much as you are able. I think the law of diminishing returns is complicated by the fact that every brand is different, and also by the market in which a lot of things compete for components at a certain price. So I think there are a lot of great value items at a popular price point, but also a lot of neat looking things that aren't particularly a good value but have their prices elevated to that price because the sellers know that it's a cutoff for many people. I could watch a dozen videos about the law of diminishing returns in HiFi. It's a subject I never get tired of. I guess you could say there is no point of diminishing returns for me when it comes to this subject!
There is no denying the law of diminishing return. But where it is, that is a matter of personal choice. However I think Paul refers to the median perception of Audiophiles and I am sure they have the marketing to back it up. I am always amazed how good of a video comes out of such humdrum questions.
Hi! An entertaining and informative video as usual! I would like to point out another significant factor in the price / performance equation... Up here in Canada, for many decades, audio manufacturers had free access to the sound laboratories and anechoic chamber of The National Research Council (NRC). During these decades, Canadian equipment OFTEN sounded and measured (and reviewed) well above most of the equipment in similar price categories from other countries. I will mention just a few of many examples across a few price points ... Paradigm, Fluance, PSB, Anthem, Axiom, Classe, Focus, Bryston... While unfortunately that program ended years ago, the research, engineering and testing head start those companies along (with the engineers, designers and fabricators working for them) got was enough to propel their quality far beyond what competitors could possibly match for the price. That Canadian investment in R&D paid for itself several times over and it's unfortunate that it faded into history. I do think that several of those companies will continue to be competitive into the future thanks to the research bump in the past, but over time it is definitely fading.
I started with the (GREAT!) Sprout100 and loved it. Then went to the Stellar level. Yup, VERY big performance jump. Want to go BHK when I can afford it, but as Paul says, I know the level jump from Stellar to BHK is not as great. Yet worth it...
IMHO I would tell someone who is just starting is to get something with a EQ. You can clean up a lot of crappy equipment and also figure out what direction you want to go. Also there is nothing more defeating then getting a "better" piece of equipment and find out it sounds like crap in your room. Again a EQ can fix that. Once you know the direction you can work toward getting the EQ to flat.
Being HAPPY! What makes people HAPPY is this. "They get what they like, plain and simple." Sure, most of the time that you spend more, you will get a better product. KIA vs. PORSCHE. That is an extreme, but true. QUALITY, that is number 1!! Tried and true, you get what you pay for. QUALITY will never go out of style! Just because a friend says, "That This Is Better Then That, Should never apply to what you like. Do "Blind Listening" sessions in your price range. (I do have to say this. That pretty much only applies to Hi-End equipment. I have had my ADS L-810 speakers for almost 40 years. They rock, I have a McIntosh MHT-200 System Controller. It Rocks! Sometimes you should be happier then 99.9% of the people out there by not LOOKING-OVER-YOUR-SHOULDER, not thinking REVIEWS MATTER and just saying to yourself, I am "Above The Crowd!" Please let me know your thoughts on how I feel? Thank You-GREG
If there is a nicer person in the industry don’t know who it would be and he gives explanations and comparisons that everyone can understand regardless of prior knowledge
I didn't "like" the video because it came up 666, however I greatly enjoyed your honesty, and explanation of the potential for diminishing returns in audio equipment, Keep up the great work.
From what I've seen not always but one of the least expense of components of a loud speaker is actually the drivers (not necessarily proprietary custom designed drivers).... The bulk of the expense is cabinets and R&D. You can purchase some higher end drivers like morel, scan speak ect at places like madisound, parts express ect for relatively low prices and several of these drivers are used in primium brand speakers, even a $1000 would get you a nice set of drivers and if you know enclosure, crossover and porting design you can have some seriously asounding sounding speakers... No not ground breaking stuff but upper end caliber. It's alot of work research and trial and error but you can end up with equipment pennies on the dollar with some real effort. But then again how much is your time worth.....
Very honest overview, always appreciated. I'm still trying to find a home demo of Stella Strata products in the UK to make a final decision on my shortlisted products. Even with a $500 amp on a $5,000 pair of speakers they sound great so I'm interested to see how much better SS will make them sound. To answer the obvious question of why the hell have you got a $500 amp on $5,000 speakers, the answer is that I have only recently upgraded from $750 speakers.
@Fat Rat I respectfully disagree, the speakers are where the money should be if you are going to spend more on one than the other. They are what makes the noise, sure a good amp will make poor speakers sound better but only up to a point.
Today with Class D I'm guessing the price is less of an indication of what you're getting. A couple of companies develops and makes the chip, the majority of them gets assembled to a board in Asia. Then different brand buys the boards, complement them with surrounding electronics, makes a case and sell them. Like ICE amplifiers, a board for $100 can be found in say $4000 amplifiers. It's a sensible time to get in to DIY. :)
I have found with class D, that the big differences come in the input buffer stage. The better ones use their own discrete class A, not a chip. There are some awesome chips out there though, I'm not knocking them, they just can't do high current input stages.
Although well said with passion and eloquence and I tend to agree overall with your statement. It's only fair to mention that within those echelon of speakers one will still encounter a sound that one likes and one dislikes. The gap may be smaller as the price gets larger. However the disparity of taste within the category is still there. And one never knows what one is missing until one buys more. And THAT is the hook of many an esoteric industry. Will that 40 footer make you happier than that 38 footer? Did that 38 footer make you feel more successful than the 30 footer had? Will you stop at 50 even IF you can afford MORE?!?! Do you go shopping for "a car" or do you go test drive "the car" that you want and compare it with others in the category?
Near field listening with small speakers is not largely affected by room problems. It's when you have a larger room and dynamic speakers that acoustics need to be right. I'm surprised at how many systems are shown on RU-vid with thousands of dollars worth of equipment and the listening room has bare floors. Just throwing an area rug in front of the set-up won't cancel all of the reflections from hard surfaces of floor and walls, which muddy the signal. Designers use anechoic chambers to measure their products for a reason - to remove the chance of spurious reflected sound waves from interfering with the pure signal emitted directly. Headphones are popular, because they isolate the sound on the recording from contamination with room noises. A lot of listeners have echoic rooms and don't know it. Clap your hands forcefully and if you hear an echo your room is too reflective. Sometimes, your significant other loves hardwood floors better than good listening. Then you are in trouble. This is a topic which need further coverage, as there are too many variables to give one succinct answer. With a good room and good speakers, placement is the first to be addressed.The audio market is very competitive and there are many great components, but no amount of money spent on gear can make up for a bad listening room.
I would love to buy an Onkyo r-n855 because of the compact form factor. It is for a 25m2 room. What are the alternatives? I am not really an audiophile and there are not that many review out there. All I knbow it is a Class D amp outputting 2x70w but I guess this is peak whereas I think it is only 25W per channel.
I would like it if there were some kind of constructive feedback from this channel to the comments. Over and over there are well thought out reactions with no reply. Is PS Audio simply YouTubing their brand?
@Fat Rat I am! I’ll email you some pics whenever I get my phone fixed. I’m using my wifes while she sleeps LOL. My amp hums, and I’m too lazy to track down those damn leaky caps. I’ve been using my mixing board as a headphone amp, nice clean sound and I can jam along with whatever I want!
I can't agree with equipment retailing for $1-$3k retail sounding as good as some $20k pieces. I have a Burmester preamp that very few pieces can come close to. I've also heard some Luxman pieces from integrateds, separates, and sources that are just extraordinary. I do agree that expensive speakers will always be the best starting point, because without them, expensive/better gear can not make a difference.
I'm just starting my journey into high end I have a great budget I just don't know where to start I got to accommodate two rooms. The stellar stack is at the top of my list but it has to be in the same room as my home theater. Any thoughts
@Fat Rat in the Atlanta area suburbs. just retiring. My room is 18 by 14 and 10-ft ceilings I have two rooms that I need to accommodate one is my actual personal home theater listening room if you will then I want to have two channel audio in my home theater or integrated with my home theater I've been researching a lot kind of know what I need to do. just need that nudge from somebody with some experience and yes that's the right ticket. Far as I can tell there's no high-end stores around here.
@Fat Rat just found out a friend of mine that has his own business has wholesale line on some top audio gear like definitive technology speakers and audio control amplifiers/ processors and receivers.gear.. I can almost get those for half price.
@Fat Rat it's not his store he just got access to wholesale equipment he don't have the assets to let me hear it. I just got access to the discount. Looking to save on speakers and amplifiers so I can get that PS audio stellar static at least that's the plan buddy
@Fat Rat Thanks brother, I'll hit you back once I get it in my home. I must confess I'm a PS audio fanboy and I must have me some PS audio in my home no matter what.
Paul as also a Midwest beginner, this was very helpful for those of us that havnt lived in high end audio. Can you do a video of the basic “flow” of a high fi? Form source(record, etc) to speaker? Why does a high end system take up a book shelf of components? Can finally dip my toes into this world, but I don’t have any bearings to head to.
'Mediocre to good' is a big improvement, 'good to perfect' maybe less so. However, the optimum point of perfection in electronics vs speakers is interesting. It would suggest that for instance Accuphase or McIntosh are operating at too high a level of perfection. Is that true? Or is it brand status and beauty of products that come into play here?
Shorter signal and better parts. And same type of sound through entire range, and not resorting to what is popular and taking short cuts. Doing what no one wants to do.
As with any new hobby you endeavor into which requires equipment, you will need to dip you toe in the pool to check the water to see if you want to get in to the deep end of the pool in the future. Getting away from the mainstream department store brands into entry level esoteric brands is a step in the right direction.
It seems totally ironic but just to hear equipment is the complete opposite of diminishing returns. The sayng goes "IF THE MOUNTAIN WILL NOT COME TO MOHAMMED, MOHAMMED WILL GO TO THE MOUNTAIN." One must spend the money upfront to hear the equipment. Hence the problem of actually hearing the equipment. Events like AXPONA and the like are now ground zero. Nothing is convenient in comparing with your own ears HIFI anymore. I hate to say that term "back in the day" but I used to bring my amp preamp or what ever to a local HIFI dealer to hear/demo a set of speakers. In the end it is all about your ears and your perception of what sounds good. SO the best formula for success is to play play both ends of a dimensioning returns game.
@@mikenoble8517 Fortunately I have a HIFI store here in Gig Harbor Washington here where I live. Large gatherings of people at events I don’t see happening for awhile due to Covid19.
The difference between $2000 amps is far less than the difference between $2000 speakers. Choosing speakers is very much about personal preference. You can have 2 pairs of speakers of similar price and quality, and yet they sound very different from each other. And they both can be great, in different ways.
Yes sure, but there is the subjective dimension too : at some point you can either love or hate a certain idea of perfection. There is a number of expensive high end gear I have listened to carefully, and - although I get the point - I don't always like the way it sounds. There are times where the best fish in the world won't satisfy a meat lover. And also, perfection can be so boring ...because perfection DOES NOT EXIST, only certain ideas of perfection approaches biased in a certain way.
Young people of today often seem stuck with cheap Bluetooth speakers and those earbuds that came with their smart phone, as they don’t realize that for just tiny money, audiophile sound is quite possible. Just replacing their earbuds can make a huge first step impact. For under US$100 anyone can enter the audiophile world in such way. PS audio should try to capture younger customers with some audiophile earbuds. Next they will buy a Sprout and so on...
Do you build speakers like i do on diy. level then you will be amazed at how good speakers you can make for little money. An example. you spend a total of 1000 usd but you have to pay 5000 usd for just as good factory made speakers.
@Fat Rat yes it is the verticle one i use both dac and phone it is rated real good for what i read about it i only wanted 2 chanel i wasn't sure how it would work but bought it any ways.
Absolutely true - speakers don’t suffer from diminishing returns nearly as quickly as electronics. The best companies build all their transducers in house rather than cheaper outsourced parts used by the majority of speaker “manufacturers”. The cost to build in house is huge but the QC and ability to customize to achieve seamless integration across multiple drivers is unique. There are some obvious things to look for in electronics - XLR balanced designs operating at pro-audio signal levels (up to 18 volts) are far superior to cheap RCA designs at 2 volts. The speaker cabinet is not a big deal as long as proper design principles are followed - cosmetics can add significantly to this. Despite all the fanciest materials available - mdf, wood, bitumen damping sheets work extremely well as does aluminium. Bracing can add cost but is often important. Thin wall light weight speaker designs will always have a characteristic coloration.
Paul: "I can buy cheezy woofers, two or three bucks out of China...or we can design our own...that's gonna cost a $100, or $200 'cause it's got all the bells and whistles... I thought Expensive woofers were suppose to LEAVE OUT all the whistles! Sorry, I just couldn't pass this one up :>)
I appreciate all of those thoughts. But there are a lot of other factors Paul left out. It's clearly not just about the price of electronics components. A few examples: Expected sales volume. It costs a lot of upfront money to pay engineers to design the component. If you're targeting a niche, low volume market, each unit you sell is going to have to cost a lot more to make up for that upfront engineering cost. Brand trust. People are willing to pay more for a product designed by a brand they trust. Sales channel. Products sold by dealers are going to have to cost more because the distributor and retailer need to make their margins, too. I think it's a little disingenuous for Paul to pretend like cost is mostly driven by the cost of electronic components. That's clearly not true.
I've been a HIFIholic for 30 years. Always believed a system is built from the speakers backwards. Listening to Paul should reinforce this for most. A note on diminishing returns. 10X where X equals speaker cables. 100Y where Y equals power cables.
It seems totally ironic but just to hear equipment is the complete opposite of diminishing returns. The sayng goes "IF THE MOUNTAIN WILL NOT COME TO MOHAMMED, MOHAMMED WILL GO TO THE MOUNTAIN." One must spend the money upfront to hear the equipment. Hence the problem of actually hearing the equipment. Events like AXPONA and the like are now ground zero. Nothing is convenient in comparing with your own ears HIFI anymore. I hate to say that term "back in the day" but I used to bring my amp preamp or what ever to a local HIFI dealer to hear/demo a set of speakers. In the end it is all about your ears and your perception of what sounds good. SO the best formula for success is to play play both ends of a diminishing returns game.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w Agree. I make my own or find a deal and make two cables out of one. I was referencing the vast majority who pay retail and lack the knowledge, time or desire to go your way. I currently use silver plated 18AWG multi-strand shielded Teflon wrapped aircraft interconnect signal wire for the low watt horn speakers. I have tried so so many types. Nordost Kimber Kabel XlO Monster and home made OFC cooper and pure silver etc. As for power cable it is all BS. I ran a direct line from the main panel tot the outlets supporting the equipment. I use a PS Audio power conditioner that converts AC to DC and back to AC. Clean power starts ((after)) the power conditioner.
Howdy. With all due respect. I don't think the clip aswers the question WHAT. The clip just states the obvious THAT. More expensive is usually better. I think the real answer is Fidelity. However, breaking up fidelity into all its parameters would most likely require a semester of lectures ... In high regards.
I've seen 5 seconds of this video and I say... The POWER SUPPLY!!!! :) And a lot of other things. But the power supply provides 70% of the quality. Whatever it is you want to do with audio, start with a power supply without ANY compromises.
You see so many class D amplifiers low and high priced using a (SMPS) switch mode power supply. The majority of Hypex and the recent Purifi amplifiers all use SMPS. Yes a SMPS can be good if well designed and implemented. But most of the time the manufacturer is using it because it's very cheap. Trying to save money knowing casual buyers knowledge is poor. My class D stereo power amplifier using a Hypex amp module is different. No SMPS, instead two linear power supply's, one for each channel. With a massive toroidal transformer supplying more than enough juice for both channels.
@@renejansen5939 My first "system" was a compact stereo with the record player in the top, speakers made out of particle board. I put a decent (not expensive) pair of speakers in the system and it sounded a thousand times better. Won't work miracles but decent speakers can help any system, because the range between quality and crap amps is not as wide as u might think
